I've been thinking on what a dunamist Barb might look like. The idea I'm having right now is maybe one that manipulates gravity around it and buffing itself to either move faster or hit harder while debuffing foes to either move slower or make them easy to knock down. Any thoughts on that?
I've been thinking on what a dunamist Barb might look like. The idea I'm having right now is maybe one that manipulates gravity around it and buffing itself to either move faster or hit harder while debuffing foes to either move slower or make them easy to knock down. Any thoughts on that?
I actually was inspired by this thread to make my own Barbarian Subclass based on the Gravaturgy Wizard abilities but applied more towards martial combat, with some slight DBZ influence from characters like Goku screaming in rage to power up and gravity seeming to take a sick day as small rocks and stuff float into the air.
Time Bandit would be cool for a rogue. Steal time from enemies to give them slow-type effects and/or give yourself haste-type effects. Or say you have a power that can take the enemy's reaction and use it to make an extra attack (or maybe an extra bonus action might be more realistic). Pull off a time heist!
Being able to manipulate gravity the same way could be cool too. Dump half your weight onto an enemy to increase your mobility, with effects similar to the Graviturgist's Adjust Density.
Time anything is a quick way to give most DM's headaches. It is rarely done well in any medium.
Absolutely, which is why I'm not totally sanguine about attempts to just tack time magic on to existing classes. Most homebrew material isn't great, but there's a particular lack of polish and creativity when it comes to chronomancy. This is true of the new Chronurgy school, in my opinion. Most creators clearly don't playtest, which results in features that are way too complicated. I'd say about one-third have some ability akin to rewinding time without realizing how much record-keeping that entails. Dealing with revisions to time could seriously screw over a DM who's worked hard to prepare a game, as it's hard enough to manage a single timeline. Many rely on a feature that just allows you to re-roll stuff occasionally. This was fine in 3e when re-rolling was a rare ability, but it's boring in 5e.
I don't like to say these things without having an alternative to propose. I have been fine-tuning a sorcerer archetype dealing with time magic for a while. There are a few key points I want to emphasize in its construction:
1) Chronomancy=/=divination. 2) Chronomancy is very valuable out of combat. A good chronomancy brew should provide tools for all three pillars of play. 3) Time paradoxes are interesting and under-explored in chronomancy brews. They can be tractable game mechanics if thought out clearly, especially in non-combat encounters. 4) If a chronomantic effect is well represented by an existing spell then it doesn't need to be made a class feature. Players can work out on their own which spells can be re-flavored to include chronomantic effects. 5) I'm probably not going to bother with bonus spells. Players don't need to have their hand held when deciding which spells a chronomancer would take. A caster specializing in chronomancy (or really anything else) is probably going to learn haste on their own.
Edit: Also, I had a bit of an epiphany about the blood hunter. I still don't think it should be a standalone class, but if you were to set your campaign in a world in which time manipulation is frequent and dangerous, a BH/ranger could specialize in hunting time travelers by using specially sanctioned chronomantic methods. True of a paladin to a lesser degree, I suppose. But I don't really feel like these make sense for a classic FR-type setting. I also have no idea what these archetypes would look like.
So, I think there should be at least one Dunamancy subclass for every class. Here are my ideas:
Artificer: Chronoturgist (Possibly a gravity based one too.) Barbarian: Path of the Probable (you can use dunamancy to warp your attacks to increase their range, teleport, and abilities like that while raging) Bard: College of Possibility (use bardic inspiration to allow your attacks to spread spell damage across targets.) Blood Hunter: (I have literally no idea. Suggestions are welcome) Cleric: Dunamancy Domain (Use Channel Divinity to give a creature disadvantage on attacks, checks, and saves as a reaction. Also the ability to link allies together, causing them to have access to any class or race features the other has) Druid: Circle of Echos (you use wild shape to summon echos that have more hit points and more action options.) Fighter: Echo Knight (so, this is covered) Monk: Way of the Phaser (You can run through walls, summon dying echoes of themselves to help them with ability checks, and teleport possibly) Paladin: Oath of the Equal (Ranged Smiting! You can throw your attacks to other ally's positions by creating a dunamis link between you two.) Ranger: (I again am hitting a blank, if you have ideas, let me know) Rogue: (Any ideas?) Sorcerer: Living Paradox (necrotic focused abilities, maybe?) Warlock: Future Self Patron Wizard: We have Chronurgist and Graviturgist.
Any ideas or thoughts on the possible subclasses I've listed?
I hope this doesn't count as thread necromancy, but here goes. I wouldn't bother trying to stuff time and space magic into every class. Let the ideas come naturally.
Artificer. I think an artificer subclass could take a number of twists. A time manipulator could be a clock-maker, or focus on creating and using future tech that acts mechanically like magic. If you have any experience with the game Shadow of the Demon Lord (SDL), there's an entire tradition of Technomancy magic that fits nicely here. I might just make this one.
Barbarian. I can't really see a barbarian subclass unless you're willing to just replicate the Echo Knight.
Bard. The new College of Creation actually has the right flavor.
Blood Hunter. I'm generally not a huge fan of this class. It owes its existence to the weakness of the Ranger. Not really sure how to pull this one off anyway.
Cleric. I'm not really seeing this one. Time and space magic really seem more arcane than divine. I suppose there are a few gods out there with time and space in their portfolio, but they are few and far between, and generally prefer to preserve time and space rather than freely give the power to tamper with them.
Druid. Also not seeing it. If you want to contort yourself to make this one happen, you could argue that time and space are fundamentals of nature. Still, it wouldn't mesh too well with existing druid features.
Monk. This one has a lot of promise. Many Monk features can already be interpreted through the lens of time and space magic. All of the base Ki features fit the flavor. Take another look at Timeless Body and Empty Body. Further, none of the existing subclasses really capture the same feel, so there's definitely room. Think the Flash. The Flash can do things like those you mentioned, phasing, creating the equivalent of echos via afterimages, etc. How exactly does this connect to time or space magic? Well I'm no physicist, but general relativity teaches us that velocity and the perception of time are connected.
Paladin. Same as Cleric. I'm just not seeing the "Oath" that justifies a subclass.
Ranger. If the Ranger class were half decent, it might be worth a shot. The Horizon Walker with a slight twist could be a basis for a subclass involving time or space. But it's a stretch.
Rogue. Nope.
Sorcerer. Jeez there's a bunch of options here. My Living Paradox is premised on some of the same logic as phenomena from the Bioshock series. Essentially, in some way, the character was born under paradoxical circumstances, and their existence in two separate points in time gives them power. Either they were born in another timeline or were pushed into the past (to eventually lay the foundations of their own birth). Its powers are much more focused on realistic time travel considerations. As a base feature, the character can perform increasingly paradoxical feats. They can receive information from their future self (a closed loop paradox), remove a condition or damage by altering the past. As a capstone, I imagine they could split a timeline in order to perceive the outcomes of two different actions, then choose which timeline to kill etc. I'd recommend watching the series Dark for inspiration...
The entire story takes place within a closed loop, and the characters struggle to either continue or break the loop. But the ones who try to break the loop always end up propagating the loop in an Oedipean way. The characters occasionally meet and interact with themselves at different points in time.
Warlock. Again, a bunch of options. A patron could be an entity from a dying timeline, like a 3.5e vestige, trying to enlist people from the past to make some changes. I could also imagine a sentient black hole that needs to feed on mass, granting gravity powers.
Will it may be a bit out there, if it involves time, maybe having a druid that can have a connection to primal or extinct creatures, A circle of the Ancient that uses some kind of Dunamancy to call upon the power of dinosaurs or other ancient creatures.
Will it may be a bit out there, if it involves time, maybe having a druid that can have a connection to primal or extinct creatures, A circle of the Ancient that uses some kind of Dunamancy to call upon the power of dinosaurs or other ancient creatures.
Dinosaurs aren't extinct in the FR though, haha. The idea of druids transforming into "devolved" versions of creatures has precedent in D&D though. It's not really too closely related to dunamancy though. The geomancer from 3.5e Complete Divine, Master of Many Forms from 3.5e Complete Adventurer, and Nature's Warrior and Warshaper from 3.5e Complete Warrior have mechanics allowing for customizable partial transformations that make them more bestial.
Ok druid's out. How about a Dunamancy rouge? Maybe some kind of mechanic similar to the phantom rouge that lets you obtain different skills or abilities based on multiverse theory/opposite timelines?
Or more simply, a rouge that uses the space bending powers of Dunamancy to warp and teleport. Briefly existing in all possible places at once before focusing back in on one point (Teleportation explained by alternate timelines)
IDK about the barbarian, but the monk would be cool. Maybe they could have alternate/additional Step of the Wind options, or they could dodge projectiles (like in the Matrix!). A nice option would be spending a ki point to be able to pass through objects, like Incorporeal Movement when they take Step of the Wind (without an additional ki point for this) or the Dash action.
A lot of these ideas sound like they'd fit better with a superhero genre ruleset than D&D....
I think that's Gravity and time based stuff in a nutshell (Dunamancy is basically a DnD-afied version of quantum physics anyway)
Eh. I think my main issue with the time aspect of dunamancy as presented is that it has almost nothing to do with anything interesting in the science fact or fiction of time manipulation. The spells and class features as given amount to a reflavoring of banishment (temporal shunt). The chronurgist gives you a fancy version of advantage, an initiative bonus, a spell-sharing ability that could be appropriate for any number of caster archetypes, and a lousy version of hold monster. There's nothing that engages with the ability to mess with causality or paradox. I understand that Wizard archetypes have to be weak due to the power of the base class, but it just feels lacking in imagination.
IMO it's a very weak point in EGtW. The graviturgist and its associated spells are much more interesting by comparison, and the echo knight (while poorly written) was a great exercise in translating imagination into mechanics.
Well, I literally came up with it 5 minutes ago so there's not much to go on, but I just had an idea for a "phase-monk" that manipulates unrealized timelines like the Echo Knight, only instead of manifesting potential versions of themselves they draw on that potential energy to augment their own abilities, such as manipulating folds in time-space to move about the battlefield or partially stepping into potential realities to mitigate damage...
...
...**** it, I ought to be doing homework but this is more interesting...
ah yes classic i have a setting where humans and other races are so powerful because their biolgy learned to exploit magic in and space time in small ways
I've been thinking on what a dunamist Barb might look like. The idea I'm having right now is maybe one that manipulates gravity around it and buffing itself to either move faster or hit harder while debuffing foes to either move slower or make them easy to knock down. Any thoughts on that?
I actually was inspired by this thread to make my own Barbarian Subclass based on the Gravaturgy Wizard abilities but applied more towards martial combat, with some slight DBZ influence from characters like Goku screaming in rage to power up and gravity seeming to take a sick day as small rocks and stuff float into the air.
Behold The path of The Path of The Crushing Weight V1
Time Bandit would be cool for a rogue. Steal time from enemies to give them slow-type effects and/or give yourself haste-type effects. Or say you have a power that can take the enemy's reaction and use it to make an extra attack (or maybe an extra bonus action might be more realistic). Pull off a time heist!
Being able to manipulate gravity the same way could be cool too. Dump half your weight onto an enemy to increase your mobility, with effects similar to the Graviturgist's Adjust Density.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Absolutely, which is why I'm not totally sanguine about attempts to just tack time magic on to existing classes. Most homebrew material isn't great, but there's a particular lack of polish and creativity when it comes to chronomancy. This is true of the new Chronurgy school, in my opinion. Most creators clearly don't playtest, which results in features that are way too complicated. I'd say about one-third have some ability akin to rewinding time without realizing how much record-keeping that entails. Dealing with revisions to time could seriously screw over a DM who's worked hard to prepare a game, as it's hard enough to manage a single timeline. Many rely on a feature that just allows you to re-roll stuff occasionally. This was fine in 3e when re-rolling was a rare ability, but it's boring in 5e.
I don't like to say these things without having an alternative to propose. I have been fine-tuning a sorcerer archetype dealing with time magic for a while. There are a few key points I want to emphasize in its construction:
1) Chronomancy=/=divination.
2) Chronomancy is very valuable out of combat. A good chronomancy brew should provide tools for all three pillars of play.
3) Time paradoxes are interesting and under-explored in chronomancy brews. They can be tractable game mechanics if thought out clearly, especially in non-combat encounters.
4) If a chronomantic effect is well represented by an existing spell then it doesn't need to be made a class feature. Players can work out on their own which spells can be re-flavored to include chronomantic effects.
5) I'm probably not going to bother with bonus spells. Players don't need to have their hand held when deciding which spells a chronomancer would take. A caster specializing in chronomancy (or really anything else) is probably going to learn haste on their own.
Edit: Also, I had a bit of an epiphany about the blood hunter. I still don't think it should be a standalone class, but if you were to set your campaign in a world in which time manipulation is frequent and dangerous, a BH/ranger could specialize in hunting time travelers by using specially sanctioned chronomantic methods. True of a paladin to a lesser degree, I suppose. But I don't really feel like these make sense for a classic FR-type setting. I also have no idea what these archetypes would look like.
Will it may be a bit out there, if it involves time, maybe having a druid that can have a connection to primal or extinct creatures, A circle of the Ancient that uses some kind of Dunamancy to call upon the power of dinosaurs or other ancient creatures.
Dinosaurs aren't extinct in the FR though, haha. The idea of druids transforming into "devolved" versions of creatures has precedent in D&D though. It's not really too closely related to dunamancy though. The geomancer from 3.5e Complete Divine, Master of Many Forms from 3.5e Complete Adventurer, and Nature's Warrior and Warshaper from 3.5e Complete Warrior have mechanics allowing for customizable partial transformations that make them more bestial.
Ok druid's out. How about a Dunamancy rouge? Maybe some kind of mechanic similar to the phantom rouge that lets you obtain different skills or abilities based on multiverse theory/opposite timelines?
Or more simply, a rouge that uses the space bending powers of Dunamancy to warp and teleport. Briefly existing in all possible places at once before focusing back in on one point (Teleportation explained by alternate timelines)
I think that's Gravity and time based stuff in a nutshell (Dunamancy is basically a DnD-afied version of quantum physics anyway)
IDK about the barbarian, but the monk would be cool. Maybe they could have alternate/additional Step of the Wind options, or they could dodge projectiles (like in the Matrix!). A nice option would be spending a ki point to be able to pass through objects, like Incorporeal Movement when they take Step of the Wind (without an additional ki point for this) or the Dash action.
-Anders
Eh. I think my main issue with the time aspect of dunamancy as presented is that it has almost nothing to do with anything interesting in the science fact or fiction of time manipulation. The spells and class features as given amount to a reflavoring of banishment (temporal shunt). The chronurgist gives you a fancy version of advantage, an initiative bonus, a spell-sharing ability that could be appropriate for any number of caster archetypes, and a lousy version of hold monster. There's nothing that engages with the ability to mess with causality or paradox. I understand that Wizard archetypes have to be weak due to the power of the base class, but it just feels lacking in imagination.
IMO it's a very weak point in EGtW. The graviturgist and its associated spells are much more interesting by comparison, and the echo knight (while poorly written) was a great exercise in translating imagination into mechanics.
ah yes classic i have a setting where humans and other races are so powerful because their biolgy learned to exploit magic in and space time in small ways
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
I have actually made a few of the subclasses that I proposed in this thread, like a Luck Shifter Rogue, Time Warper Rogue, and Phaser Monk.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I have an idea! For Bard, Monk, and Warlocks...
Warlocks of the Luxon - I actually have some mechanics for it: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/780578714903117855/782342163018547231/Exandria_Additions.pdf (page 26 - mind these are total drafts)
Bard: College of Dunamis (Bards that can use music to slow people and speed people up and spread damage and quantum phase)
Monk: Way of the Quantum (Monks that blur and jump through space)
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
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