Do you think it is some sort of actual law or something? Do you even understand it? There are plenty of examples of things that were once seen as magic that are now explained by science. A good literary example of psionics being assumed to be magic would be Steven King's 'Carrie' in which the title character is telekinetic but her mother believes her daughter is demon possessed or using witchcraft.
That's actually a case of people being wrong about what flavor of magic was involved (well, maybe wrong; definitions of witchcraft are vague enough that it being telekinesis does not prevent it from also being witchcraft).
Taken in a broader scope, it is a means of saying that the lines between “Sci Fi” and “Fantasy” are “blurred” to say the least. It’s not such a hard line, more of a vaaast gray area.
In regards time this specific conversation, what (at least I believe) Kotath was alluding to is simply put along these lines: One person’s Psychic Powers are another person’s “Magic” if they don’t understand or have any frame of concept for ”Psychic Abilities.”
ROFL now you cannot even distinguish between science fiction and fantasy. You are now insisting that even if it is actual psionics, then it is nevertheless witchcraft...
I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be, because the definitions overlap. You are trying to distinguish things that are not actually distinct.
Because of its extreme lack of meaningful content compared to prior editions. Tiny number of classes because the burden of content got moved to subclasses. Except subclasses (with an exception or two) completely fail to provide serious playstyle or mechanics changes over the base class.
Meaning I can't build many characters I like in a satisfying way, which I could in prior editions.
Read the previous 40 pages, or don't. I don't care. But if you want to continue the conversation, do it over there, this is not the place for it.
Agreed. The most about psionics we can discuss here is that those who want more classes also seem to want a Psion. End of discussion. To discuss specifics, go to a different thread, please.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Okay, I'll drop psionics as an issue, since it's not like anyone is being convinced anyway and it isn't terribly important whether magic and psi are distinct. The root issue is to what degree different classes that are different according to lore should also be mechanically different. To use a different discussion from upthread, should a Thyatian Gladiator or a Alphatian Guard actually be mechanically different, and at what level should the distinction be applied?
You can, in principle, just distinguish them by builds -- for example, the gladiator might use net and trident (and possibly have feats to make this more functional) while the guard uses sword and shield -- but should they have more distinctive capabilities?
Okay, I'll drop psionics as an issue, since it's not like anyone is being convinced anyway and it isn't terribly important whether magic and psi are distinct. The root issue is to what degree different classes that are different according to lore should also be mechanically different. To use a different discussion from upthread, should a Thyatian Gladiator or a Alphatian Guard actually be mechanically different, and at what level should the distinction be applied?
You can, in principle, just distinguish them by builds -- for example, the gladiator might use net and trident (and possibly have feats to make this more functional) while the guard uses sword and shield -- but should they have more distinctive capabilities?
Yes, different conditions, mindsets, lifestyles, no two people fight the exact same way
Read the previous 40 pages, or don't. I don't care. But if you want to continue the conversation, do it over there, this is not the place for it.
Agreed. The most about psionics we can discuss here is that those who want more classes also seem to want a Psion. End of discussion. To discuss specifics, go to a different thread, please.
We did half build two other classes in this thread earlier. just sayin'....
Read the previous 40 pages, or don't. I don't care. But if you want to continue the conversation, do it over there, this is not the place for it.
Agreed. The most about psionics we can discuss here is that those who want more classes also seem to want a Psion. End of discussion. To discuss specifics, go to a different thread, please.
We did half build two other classes in this thread earlier. just sayin'....
I know, but this is a more fiery topic than those. People feel more strongly about psionics than an occultist, magus, or shaman.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I actually really wish I could work more on that single-attack swordcaster idea that hit me about fifteen pages ago...
Really sucks that DDB can't tolerate homebrew base classes.
Anyways. The difference between a Thyatian Gladiator and an Alphatian Guard should be mechanical, but that feels like the proper place for subclass design. Those are both clearly fighters-the-class, but their combat styles are very different and players should be able to dial in those differences and actually feel them in play. It's one of the reasons I'm increasingly cheesed the hell off that Maneuvers are exclusive to the Battlemaster subclass rather than being a fundamental mechanic available to all martial classes. Different maneuver loadouts, and different 'specialty' maneuvers only available to a given fighter subclass, would've gone a long way towards making fighters less boring and samey to build/run/play. Anything that's formally trained enough in martial combat to have a choice of Fighting Style should also have Maneuvers. But I suppose that's a different thread.
Nevertheless. The idea of subclasses isn't bad, it's simply that Wizards didn't go far enough with them. Very few subclasses significantly impact the way a character plays, which is a problem they share with altogether too many feats. Wizards made the impact of these things mild enough that players didn't end up feeling buyer's remorse for picking the 'wrong' option, but that in turn meant the options basically didn't exist. Without enough mechanical impact, there's no reason to have the option at all - this is me staring squarely at the Champion fighter here, just so we're clear.
The difference between a Thyatian gladiator, an Alphatian guard, and a Nevarrian Manablade, on the other hand, likely warrants a ground-up redesign. 'Fights with a sword' is too broad to be encompassed by a single base class, just like 'casts magic spells' is too broad to be encompassed by a single base class. Not unless that class isn't really a class so much as just assembly instructions for how to cherry-pick features from a broad list of options to dial in on the idea, and at that point you're both halfway to point builder and apparently back to 4e.
I really need to find a book for that game. Everybody bags on it horrendously, but I also keep hearing shit that makes me think maybe they're being a good bit unfair to it just because it wasn't Der&Der enough for them. Hnn...
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
Taken in a broader scope, it is a means of saying that the lines between “Sci Fi” and “Fantasy” are “blurred” to say the least. It’s not such a hard line, more of a vaaast gray area.
There's no blur. You just want the X-men and Avengers. That is totally not a problem.
Professor X and Dr.Strange can absolutely exist in the same universe. The only problem being the rules to put them in a game.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
We're talking about fighter ideas and such now. No more psychics.
(Though srsly. Far too many people forget the the 'Fi' in Sci Fi means "Fiction", and that Fantasy is properly termed "Fantasy Fiction". people who say there's a hard divide between the two are disregarding a truly enormous playground in the middle.)
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants.
Small problem. You'd have to explain why a character who channels elemental magic through their weapon is able to use Lay on Hands (a divine healing ability) alongside Channel Divinity (is there a God of Elementals? I think there was a war over this...), nevermind the Oath thing.
Unless the CVFs in Tasha's are far more extensive than they were in UA, none of that will be possible.
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants.
Small problem. You'd have to explain why a character who channels elemental magic through their weapon is able to use Lay on Hands (a divine healing ability) alongside Channel Divinity (is there a God of Elementals? I think there was a war over this...), nevermind the Oath thing.
Unless the CVFs in Tasha's are far more extensive than they were in UA, none of that will be possible.
we need a new class tbh. anything just to sate the masses
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants
Except, that wouldn't work. For now, lets call the Magus/Swordmage/Duskblade the Gish. The Gish class needs a spell list of arcane spells, needs arcane abilities instead of divine ones, and needs their own class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants.
Small problem. You'd have to explain why a character who channels elemental magic through their weapon is able to use Lay on Hands (a divine healing ability) alongside Channel Divinity (is there a God of Elementals? I think there was a war over this...), nevermind the Oath thing.
Unless the CVFs in Tasha's are far more extensive than they were in UA, none of that will be possible.
I mean if subclasses were 50/50, the lay on hands, element of the smite, and even the divine spell list could be determined by subclass. In addition to the current subclass features.
You pick any of the paladin oaths, you get something along the lines of current paladin. You pick swordmage, you get more arcane spells and can pick elemental damage for smite, and something instead of lay on hands. You pick oathbreaker/death knight, you get necrotic smites, something appropriate themed instead of lay on hands, and lots of necromancy spells instead of the holy stuff.
This is the issue with swordmage/death knight concepts next to paladin (and lots of other concepts next to other existing classes). They're too different to be a satisfying subclass in the current system, and it just feels forced and cheap. But too similar to be their own class as they share many mechanics and the same niche.
Taken in a broader scope, it is a means of saying that the lines between “Sci Fi” and “Fantasy” are “blurred” to say the least. It’s not such a hard line, more of a vaaast gray area.
In regards time this specific conversation, what (at least I believe) Kotath was alluding to is simply put along these lines: One person’s Psychic Powers are another person’s “Magic” if they don’t understand or have any frame of concept for ”Psychic Abilities.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be, because the definitions overlap. You are trying to distinguish things that are not actually distinct.
GLARGHLE!
Knoggidoff, folks. If I can't talk about psionics without getting told to shaddap, neither can y'all. DX
Please do not contact or message me.
Exactly how I feel about 5e.
Seriously. This is sooooo ******* old...
Folks, if you wanna continue the psionics conversation, you can do it right here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/unearthed-arcana/63478-new-psi-based-ua
Read the previous 40 pages, or don't. I don't care. But if you want to continue the conversation, do it over there, this is not the place for it.
Agreed. The most about psionics we can discuss here is that those who want more classes also seem to want a Psion. End of discussion. To discuss specifics, go to a different thread, please.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Okay, I'll drop psionics as an issue, since it's not like anyone is being convinced anyway and it isn't terribly important whether magic and psi are distinct. The root issue is to what degree different classes that are different according to lore should also be mechanically different. To use a different discussion from upthread, should a Thyatian Gladiator or a Alphatian Guard actually be mechanically different, and at what level should the distinction be applied?
You can, in principle, just distinguish them by builds -- for example, the gladiator might use net and trident (and possibly have feats to make this more functional) while the guard uses sword and shield -- but should they have more distinctive capabilities?
Yes, different conditions, mindsets, lifestyles, no two people fight the exact same way
We did half build two other classes in this thread earlier. just sayin'....
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I know, but this is a more fiery topic than those. People feel more strongly about psionics than an occultist, magus, or shaman.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I actually really wish I could work more on that single-attack swordcaster idea that hit me about fifteen pages ago...
Really sucks that DDB can't tolerate homebrew base classes.
Anyways. The difference between a Thyatian Gladiator and an Alphatian Guard should be mechanical, but that feels like the proper place for subclass design. Those are both clearly fighters-the-class, but their combat styles are very different and players should be able to dial in those differences and actually feel them in play. It's one of the reasons I'm increasingly cheesed the hell off that Maneuvers are exclusive to the Battlemaster subclass rather than being a fundamental mechanic available to all martial classes. Different maneuver loadouts, and different 'specialty' maneuvers only available to a given fighter subclass, would've gone a long way towards making fighters less boring and samey to build/run/play. Anything that's formally trained enough in martial combat to have a choice of Fighting Style should also have Maneuvers. But I suppose that's a different thread.
Nevertheless. The idea of subclasses isn't bad, it's simply that Wizards didn't go far enough with them. Very few subclasses significantly impact the way a character plays, which is a problem they share with altogether too many feats. Wizards made the impact of these things mild enough that players didn't end up feeling buyer's remorse for picking the 'wrong' option, but that in turn meant the options basically didn't exist. Without enough mechanical impact, there's no reason to have the option at all - this is me staring squarely at the Champion fighter here, just so we're clear.
The difference between a Thyatian gladiator, an Alphatian guard, and a Nevarrian Manablade, on the other hand, likely warrants a ground-up redesign. 'Fights with a sword' is too broad to be encompassed by a single base class, just like 'casts magic spells' is too broad to be encompassed by a single base class. Not unless that class isn't really a class so much as just assembly instructions for how to cherry-pick features from a broad list of options to dial in on the idea, and at that point you're both halfway to point builder and apparently back to 4e.
I really need to find a book for that game. Everybody bags on it horrendously, but I also keep hearing shit that makes me think maybe they're being a good bit unfair to it just because it wasn't Der&Der enough for them. Hnn...
Please do not contact or message me.
^ Yep this. Subclasses would feel a lot more satisfying and provide more variety/mechanics if they could be 50/50 with the main class, rather than the 20/80 which they are now.
The concept and logic of moving the content burden onto subclasses is fine. The execution failed.
A Swordmage/Magus class could probably work as a paladin subclass in that system, but in the current system needs to be its own class. Same with occultist and warlord.
There's no blur. You just want the X-men and Avengers. That is totally not a problem.
Professor X and Dr.Strange can absolutely exist in the same universe. The only problem being the rules to put them in a game.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
NO. BAD WYSP. DX.
We're talking about fighter ideas and such now. No more psychics.
(Though srsly. Far too many people forget the the 'Fi' in Sci Fi means "Fiction", and that Fantasy is properly termed "Fantasy Fiction". people who say there's a hard divide between the two are disregarding a truly enormous playground in the middle.)
Please do not contact or message me.
It would be easiest to convert the Paladin class into the swordmage thingie. Divine Smite is already built in and can be re-flavored into whatever element the writer wants.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Small problem. You'd have to explain why a character who channels elemental magic through their weapon is able to use Lay on Hands (a divine healing ability) alongside Channel Divinity (is there a God of Elementals? I think there was a war over this...), nevermind the Oath thing.
Unless the CVFs in Tasha's are far more extensive than they were in UA, none of that will be possible.
we need a new class tbh. anything just to sate the masses
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Except, that wouldn't work. For now, lets call the Magus/Swordmage/Duskblade the Gish. The Gish class needs a spell list of arcane spells, needs arcane abilities instead of divine ones, and needs their own class.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I mean if subclasses were 50/50, the lay on hands, element of the smite, and even the divine spell list could be determined by subclass. In addition to the current subclass features.
You pick any of the paladin oaths, you get something along the lines of current paladin. You pick swordmage, you get more arcane spells and can pick elemental damage for smite, and something instead of lay on hands. You pick oathbreaker/death knight, you get necrotic smites, something appropriate themed instead of lay on hands, and lots of necromancy spells instead of the holy stuff.
This is the issue with swordmage/death knight concepts next to paladin (and lots of other concepts next to other existing classes). They're too different to be a satisfying subclass in the current system, and it just feels forced and cheap. But too similar to be their own class as they share many mechanics and the same niche.