You do not find it funny that in one campaign someone is complaining about sorcerers being too powerful and then you complain that wizards are too weak?
Given that the first person had a (please note I'm joking) comment, I think it's fair to say everyone is agreeing on sorcerers being kinda bad.
I mean sorcerer is the other class in the badly designed duo.
Having a crippled wizard with the metamagic feat from prior editions does not make a class. I hate how metamagic was made sorcerer only rather than what it used to be.
I do think that sorcerer deserves to be its own class, but not in its current state. It's one of my favourites thematically, but its just so badly designed.
You do not find it funny that in one campaign someone is complaining about sorcerers being too powerful and then you complain that wizards are too weak?
Quit expecting to have everything in one class.
I called sorcerers a crippled wizard. I didn't say wizards were weak.
Wizards are extremely powerful, and WotC's golden child.
Absolute ton of subclasses.
More New subclasses than sorcerer.
Can choose to prep any spell from their list.
Sorcerer list is basically just wizard list with half the good stuff removed.
Not only all that, but can have more spells prepped at once than a sorcerer even knows total.
Sorcerer spells from prior editions being made wizard exclusive as recently as Icewind Dale.
Personally I'd either want sorcerers to have the playtest thing where they change and gain abilities as they burn sorcery points (draconic sorcerer become a dragon lite at lvl 20 once all points are burnt). Or an 'avatar state' where you burn sorcery points each turn to go into an empowered state (a bit like rage).
Building the entire classes around being wizard but worse and with a feat just sucks.
(Also, that's not a problem with the new ruleset coming out, it's a problem with Mountain Dwarves being unbalanced.)
I haven't heard a lot about Mountain Dwarves on the forums, but I see them all the time in actual play. Mountain Dwarf Barbarians are very, very powerful with +2 to each of their main stats.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
@Vince_Snetterstn: What are you actually on about? The DM is the final arbiter of everything, period. If I decide that Two-Weapon Fighting is the only fighting style available to all classes, then as DM that is well within my rights; now granted, that would be incredibly shitty of me, and my players would be well within their rights to call me out and dump me in favor of another DM, but it's still entirely within my purview do do whatever the **** I want.
Have you read the new AL rules. Nowhere does it say a DM can veto these changes. It is the player who decides, not the DM. This is a line from the second paragraph from these new edicts: "To maintain fairness for all participants in a shared-world campaign, all DMs use the same house rules.". Read the whole thing yourself.
The DM has zero choice but to accept this idiocy at an AL table. And if it is mandatory at an AL table, that means big pressure on a DM to accept them at his table starting Nov 17. I won't of course, but a lot of weaker willed and DM's new to the game will cave.
@Vince_Snetterstn: What are you actually on about? The DM is the final arbiter of everything, period. If I decide that Two-Weapon Fighting is the only fighting style available to all classes, then as DM that is well within my rights; now granted, that would be incredibly shitty of me, and my players would be well within their rights to call me out and dump me in favor of another DM, but it's still entirely within my purview do do whatever the **** I want.
Have you read the new AL rules. Nowhere does it say a DM can veto these changes. It is the player who decides, not the DM. This is a line from the second paragraph from these new edicts: "To maintain fairness for all participants in a shared-world campaign, all DMs use the same house rules.". Read the whole thing yourself.
The DM has zero choice but to accept this idiocy at an AL table. And if it is mandatory at an AL table, that means big pressure on a DM to accept them at his table starting Nov 17. I won't of course, but a lot of weaker willed and DM's new to the game will cave.
Or of course, the DM could just get over it and realize that AL is already extremely limiting in choices, and allowing a player to use these rules isn't going to really hurt their game.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
@Vince_Snetterstn: What are you actually on about? The DM is the final arbiter of everything, period. If I decide that Two-Weapon Fighting is the only fighting style available to all classes, then as DM that is well within my rights; now granted, that would be incredibly shitty of me, and my players would be well within their rights to call me out and dump me in favor of another DM, but it's still entirely within my purview do do whatever the **** I want.
Have you read the new AL rules. Nowhere does it say a DM can veto these changes. It is the player who decides, not the DM. This is a line from the second paragraph from these new edicts: "To maintain fairness for all participants in a shared-world campaign, all DMs use the same house rules.". Read the whole thing yourself.
The DM has zero choice but to accept this idiocy at an AL table. And if it is mandatory at an AL table, that means big pressure on a DM to accept them at his table starting Nov 17. I won't of course, but a lot of weaker willed and DM's new to the game will cave.
But none of that has to do with the relative merits or flaws of adding new classes. If you wish to vent about that issue, I would ould suggest a different thread.
@Vince_Snetterstn: What are you actually on about? The DM is the final arbiter of everything, period. If I decide that Two-Weapon Fighting is the only fighting style available to all classes, then as DM that is well within my rights; now granted, that would be incredibly shitty of me, and my players would be well within their rights to call me out and dump me in favor of another DM, but it's still entirely within my purview do do whatever the **** I want.
Have you read the new AL rules. Nowhere does it say a DM can veto these changes. It is the player who decides, not the DM. This is a line from the second paragraph from these new edicts: "To maintain fairness for all participants in a shared-world campaign, all DMs use the same house rules.". Read the whole thing yourself.
The DM has zero choice but to accept this idiocy at an AL table. And if it is mandatory at an AL table, that means big pressure on a DM to accept them at his table starting Nov 17. I won't of course, but a lot of weaker willed and DM's new to the game will cave.
AL has ALWAYS been like that, though. It is effectively tournament play so fixed rules for all to ensure consistency. However having an AL table is not mandatory.
That is no new AL rule that AL DM's must follow AL rules but rather a core AL rule from the beginning. And it is a relatively safe bet that virtually all DM's new to the game have no clue what AL even is or that it even exists.
While I agree people not might recognize AL it is actually pretty well attended/played.
There is about 61,000 characters. I personally do not think the ASI changes will create any more cheese than already exists in the AL system (they grate out a lot of it but ample cheese exists to be considered 100% American). I think people just like to complain about things that will likely not affect them ever. Its a weird symptom of social media in general...
The topic of this thread is regarding new classes in the fifth edition of D&D (or the lack thereof). Discussions of topics unrelated to that, Adventurers League et al, should be done in appropriate thread and this one allowed to remain on topic.
Some other people feel like the whole game needs scrapping and do-overing to be more like 1984, and some people are wondering what the hell kind of minefield they stepped in when they posted this thread.
I read 30 odd pages (because in a day it went from 21 to 30+) before my posts so I knew the minefield before posting. Only heavily debated topics expand that fast. Heat and explosions are expected. :-)
I knew this topic would make a large thread, but I never would've guessed it would get to 55+ pages. It's crazy how angry people get when others suggest more classes.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So, on the Gish problem, I was considering whether it's possible to just fix the EK. I think you might be able to solve them with nothing but a couple spells:
Chromatic Weapon: eldritch knight-1, casting time one action, duration 1m(c), range touch. components v,s,m (a melee weapon)
A weapon you are touching becomes charged with elemental energy. Choose one of acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder damage. The next time you hit a target with this weapon, the target suffers an additional 2d8 damage of the chosen type, and the spell ends. If you let go of the weapon, this spell ends at the end of the current turn (this does permit throwing it). At higher levels: increase damage by 1d8per level above 1.
Charge Weapon: eldritch knight-2, casting time one bonus action, duration 1m(c), range touch. components v,s,m (a melee weapon)
A weapon you are touching becomes charged with a spell. Choose a level 1 spell you know that targets a creature or area and has a casting time of one action. The next time you hit a creature with this weapon, the target is affected by that spell (as if cast by you at level 1) and this spell ends (if the select spell has a duration, it lasts its normal duration). If the spell requires an attack roll, the roll is ignored. If the spell requires a save, the first save by the creature is made with disadvantage. If the spell targets an area, the creature is the origin point of the spell. This does not allow a spell to work on a target it cannot normally affect, but does ignore a requirement of seeing the target. At Higher Levels: You may select a spell up to half the level of this spell, and it is cast at a level of the level of this spell minus the level of the spell you cast. If you let go of the weapon, this spell ends at the end of the current turn (this does permit throwing it).
Note that I didn't put them on the general wizard list, mostly because of spellsingers, and to cast this for anything above second level spells you'd need to multiclass (to have a fireball weapon, you need the ability to cast 6th level spells for a total caster level of 11, such as EK-12/Wizard-7).
For a bit more multiclass goodness, I'd consider this addition to the class:
Multiclass Eldritch Knight
If an eldritch knight is multiclassed with a wizard, he may add 1/3 of his fighter levels to his wizard levels to determine what level of wizard spells he is permitted to learn or prepare (thus, Wizard-2/EK-3 can cast level 2 spells). This does not affect any other class features, and you must add the higher level spells to your book manually.
This lets you have an EK that's functionally a half-caster (just take 1 wizard level per 3 fighter levels) or any other ratio, and lets you have a slightly wider range of utility spells.
So, on the Gish problem, I was considering whether it's possible to just fix the EK. I think you might be able to solve them with nothing but a couple spells:
Chromatic Weapon: eldritch knight-1, casting time one action, duration 1m(c), range touch. components v,s,m (a melee weapon)
A weapon you are touching becomes charged with elemental energy. Choose one of acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder damage. The next time you hit a target with this weapon, the target suffers an additional 2d8 damage of the chosen type, and the spell ends. If you let go of the weapon, this spell ends at the end of the current turn (this does permit throwing it). At higher levels: increase damage by 1d8per level above 1.
Charge Weapon: eldritch knight-2, casting time one bonus action, duration 1m(c), range touch. components v,s,m (a melee weapon)
A weapon you are touching becomes charged with a spell. Choose a level 1 spell you know that targets a creature or area and has a casting time of one action. The next time you hit a creature with this weapon, the target is affected by that spell (as if cast by you at level 1) and this spell ends (if the select spell has a duration, it lasts its normal duration). If the spell requires an attack roll, the roll is ignored. If the spell requires a save, the first save by the creature is made with disadvantage. If the spell targets an area, the creature is the origin point of the spell. This does not allow a spell to work on a target it cannot normally affect, but does ignore a requirement of seeing the target. At Higher Levels: You may select a spell up to half the level of this spell, and it is cast at a level of the level of this spell minus the level of the spell you cast. If you let go of the weapon, this spell ends at the end of the current turn (this does permit throwing it).
Note that I didn't put them on the general wizard list, mostly because of spellsingers, and to cast this for anything above second level spells you'd need to multiclass (to have a fireball weapon, you need the ability to cast 6th level spells for a total caster level of 11, such as EK-12/Wizard-7).
For a bit more multiclass goodness, I'd consider this addition to the class:
Multiclass Eldritch Knight
If an eldritch knight is multiclassed with a wizard, he may add 1/3 of his fighter levels to his wizard levels to determine what level of wizard spells he is permitted to learn or prepare (thus, Wizard-2/EK-3 can cast level 2 spells). This does not affect any other class features, and you must add the higher level spells to your book manually.
This lets you have an EK that's functionally a half-caster (just take 1 wizard level per 3 fighter levels) or any other ratio, and lets you have a slightly wider range of utility spells.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work, because the Eldritch Knight uses the Wizard spell list. To give these spells to the Eldritch Knight, you would also have to give them to the Wizard.
I suppose you could give it an Expanded Spell List feature that gives those spells to the Eldritch Knight instead. Either way though, you also have the ramification to consider of Bards with Magical Secrets. The way DnD categorizes spells, they must exist on *a* spell list, and Magical Secrets lets the Bard learn a spell from *any* spell list.
The further problem is that WotC has made it pretty clear that they want to avoid rewriting features unless there is no other option to do so. Otherwise, the Ranger itself would not still be in it's sorry state (hopefully the CVFs will mostly accomplish this). There is also no precedent that I am aware of for WotC to attempt any alterations to subclasses that aren't small wording adjustments. I think the most extreme eratta they've put out on anything was the (very much needed) nerf to Healing Spirit. and all that did was add a limit to how many times the Spirit can heal before it vanishes.
It would be great of WotC would get over their fear and just make changes to fix old things, but they've demonstrated a serious disinterest of doing so.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work, because the Eldritch Knight uses the Wizard spell list. To give these spells to the Eldritch Knight, you would also have to give them to the Wizard.
I suppose you could give it an Expanded Spell List feature that gives those spells to the Eldritch Knight instead. Either way though, you also have the ramification to consider of Bards with Magical Secrets. The way DnD categorizes spells, they must exist on *a* spell list, and Magical Secrets lets the Bard learn a spell from *any* spell list.
The further problem is that WotC has made it pretty clear that they want to avoid rewriting features unless there is no other option to do so.
It wouldn't really be a serious problem to add them to the general wizard list (or allow a bard to grab them with magical secrets), it's just that the spellsinger annoys me because they messed up the AC adjustment (it should grant an AC of 10+Dex Adjustment+Int Adjustment, not add to AC).
Also, a Gish should not have most of the stuff fighters have. Four attacks, Action Surge, Indomitable, I don't see why it makes sense for a Gish class to have those.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Also, a Gish should not have most of the stuff fighters have. Four attacks, Action Surge, Indomitable, I don't see why it makes sense for a Gish class to have those.
Then take mostly wizard levels?
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Given that the first person had a (please note I'm joking) comment, I think it's fair to say everyone is agreeing on sorcerers being kinda bad.
I called sorcerers a crippled wizard. I didn't say wizards were weak.
Wizards are extremely powerful, and WotC's golden child.
Absolute ton of subclasses.
More New subclasses than sorcerer.
Can choose to prep any spell from their list.
Sorcerer list is basically just wizard list with half the good stuff removed.
Not only all that, but can have more spells prepped at once than a sorcerer even knows total.
Sorcerer spells from prior editions being made wizard exclusive as recently as Icewind Dale.
Personally I'd either want sorcerers to have the playtest thing where they change and gain abilities as they burn sorcery points (draconic sorcerer become a dragon lite at lvl 20 once all points are burnt). Or an 'avatar state' where you burn sorcery points each turn to go into an empowered state (a bit like rage).
Building the entire classes around being wizard but worse and with a feat just sucks.
I haven't heard a lot about Mountain Dwarves on the forums, but I see them all the time in actual play. Mountain Dwarf Barbarians are very, very powerful with +2 to each of their main stats.
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Have you read the new AL rules. Nowhere does it say a DM can veto these changes. It is the player who decides, not the DM. This is a line from the second paragraph from these new edicts: "To maintain fairness for all participants in a shared-world campaign, all DMs use the same house rules.". Read the whole thing yourself.
The DM has zero choice but to accept this idiocy at an AL table. And if it is mandatory at an AL table, that means big pressure on a DM to accept them at his table starting Nov 17. I won't of course, but a lot of weaker willed and DM's new to the game will cave.
Or of course, the DM could just get over it and realize that AL is already extremely limiting in choices, and allowing a player to use these rules isn't going to really hurt their game.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
But none of that has to do with the relative merits or flaws of adding new classes. If you wish to vent about that issue, I would ould suggest a different thread.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
While I agree people not might recognize AL it is actually pretty well attended/played.
According to https://www.adventurersleaguelog.com/stats
There is about 61,000 characters. I personally do not think the ASI changes will create any more cheese than already exists in the AL system (they grate out a lot of it but ample cheese exists to be considered 100% American). I think people just like to complain about things that will likely not affect them ever. Its a weird symptom of social media in general...
The topic of this thread is regarding new classes in the fifth edition of D&D (or the lack thereof). Discussions of topics unrelated to that, Adventurers League et al, should be done in appropriate thread and this one allowed to remain on topic.
Thanks everyone
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I read 30 odd pages (because in a day it went from 21 to 30+) before my posts so I knew the minefield before posting. Only heavily debated topics expand that fast. Heat and explosions are expected. :-)
I knew this topic would make a large thread, but I never would've guessed it would get to 55+ pages. It's crazy how angry people get when others suggest more classes.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
the only thing that is crazy is that the mods haven't locked the thread yet lol.
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I still stand by my opinion of wanting at least a few more classes to fill out the roster.
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I agree. I stand by everything I said. D&D won't be destroyed by adding just about half a dozen more classes.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
What are you crazy?! Everything is fine exactly the way it is.
HAHA! ok, funny not funny.
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So, on the Gish problem, I was considering whether it's possible to just fix the EK. I think you might be able to solve them with nothing but a couple spells:
Note that I didn't put them on the general wizard list, mostly because of spellsingers, and to cast this for anything above second level spells you'd need to multiclass (to have a fireball weapon, you need the ability to cast 6th level spells for a total caster level of 11, such as EK-12/Wizard-7).
For a bit more multiclass goodness, I'd consider this addition to the class:
This lets you have an EK that's functionally a half-caster (just take 1 wizard level per 3 fighter levels) or any other ratio, and lets you have a slightly wider range of utility spells.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work, because the Eldritch Knight uses the Wizard spell list. To give these spells to the Eldritch Knight, you would also have to give them to the Wizard.
I suppose you could give it an Expanded Spell List feature that gives those spells to the Eldritch Knight instead. Either way though, you also have the ramification to consider of Bards with Magical Secrets. The way DnD categorizes spells, they must exist on *a* spell list, and Magical Secrets lets the Bard learn a spell from *any* spell list.
The further problem is that WotC has made it pretty clear that they want to avoid rewriting features unless there is no other option to do so. Otherwise, the Ranger itself would not still be in it's sorry state (hopefully the CVFs will mostly accomplish this). There is also no precedent that I am aware of for WotC to attempt any alterations to subclasses that aren't small wording adjustments. I think the most extreme eratta they've put out on anything was the (very much needed) nerf to Healing Spirit. and all that did was add a limit to how many times the Spirit can heal before it vanishes.
It would be great of WotC would get over their fear and just make changes to fix old things, but they've demonstrated a serious disinterest of doing so.
It wouldn't really be a serious problem to add them to the general wizard list (or allow a bard to grab them with magical secrets), it's just that the spellsinger annoys me because they messed up the AC adjustment (it should grant an AC of 10+Dex Adjustment+Int Adjustment, not add to AC).
Also, a Gish should not have most of the stuff fighters have. Four attacks, Action Surge, Indomitable, I don't see why it makes sense for a Gish class to have those.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Then take mostly wizard levels?