What does “woke” mean in this context? I am not a native speaker and only know it as the past tense of “wake”.
Woke means to be aware of something, particularly social injustice or racism. Going woke means that you make policies or changes to your life to be more socially aware or fair. It does however, have a host of negative political connation's that I won't discuss here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
What does “woke” mean in this context? I am not a native speaker and only know it as the past tense of “wake”.
Woke means to be aware of something, particularly social injustice or racism. Going woke means that you make policies or changes to your life to be more socially aware or fair. It does however, have a host of negative political connation's that I won't discuss here.
Some people use it in a derogatory way
Also, I don’t mean to be mean, but the OP’s screen name literally means an old person who’s grumpy about younger people invading their hobby. That tends to imply that they don’t approve of being woke.
There are defo older people who are woke. But they probably wouldn’t describe themselves as grognards.
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
I think most people will pick their fave demihuman culture or species based more on flavor than mechanical benefit.
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
I don't think so. You could choose to go for pure ability scores with Dwarf or Half Elf, or you could get sweet traits like 120 ft darkvision, a swim speed, innate teleportation ect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
I don't think so. You could choose to go for pure ability scores with Dwarf or Half Elf, or you could get sweet traits like 120 ft darkvision, a swim speed, innate teleportation ect.
Yes, the different traits that each race have can still make for meaningful choices. Many race's racial traits aren't being touched at all outside of the decoupling of ASI, like the Aarakocra, Aasimar, Yuan-ti Pureblood and so on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
They should just eliminate racial ability score modifiers all together. Its a kind of silly concept anyway. There is no such thing as a genetic disposition to being more charismatic or intelligent. Its a gamist concept with no real precedence in narrative terms. If you want to have a genetic disposition, for example like the super natural agility of elves ala Lord of the Rings, then make that a unique ability like Darkvision rather then just a Dexterity modifier.
Yeah, that is a good idea. Just add a couple more points to point buy and up the standard array numbers a bit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
While I agree generally with giving players more customization options and reducing the inattentive importing of stereotypes from pop culture/fiction into the game, I do agree that there is potential for abuse of the system for Min/Max-ing. The classic example would be the Dwarf Wizard. Since STR is a relatively useless stat in 5E, many would dump STR while wanting to keep medium armor proficiency b/c Dwarf and then put their highest stat into INT, thus getting some of the benefits of a martial class alongside the benefits of a full caster from level 1. It makes some class/race combinations a bit broken.
One solution to that would be for the DM to put a floor on minimum ability scores to use certain racial features, like a minimum '10' in STR to use medium armor, or a minimum '10' in DEX to retain Halfling Nimbleness.
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
It's a great idea. I can and should be able to make a world where orcs are wizards and arcane tricksters without be limited by the current races for the Orcs.
Honest question. Was there a reason why one couldn't already do that? I've been playing some campaigns with orcs as wizards and tricksters for nearly 30 years.
They have a -2 Intelligence in Volo's. Sure, you can just homebrew it as everyone tells me, but that is not official. It's going against the grain.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
It's a great idea. I can and should be able to make a world where orcs are wizards and arcane tricksters without be limited by the current races for the Orcs.
Honest question. Was there a reason why one couldn't already do that? I've been playing some campaigns with orcs as wizards and tricksters for nearly 30 years.
They have a -2 Intelligence in Volo's. Sure, you can just homebrew it as everyone tells me, but that is not official. It's going against the grain.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
I'm in favor of racial customization. I LOVE the direction the rules set seems to be going.
I absolutely abhor the reasoning that brought it to us. This completely unfounded assertion that the rules as written promote racism, homophobia, and gender discrimination in the real world. I believe the people complaining about racism in D&D are doing so in bad faith because they're more interested in in-group virtue signaling and outrage pedaling than they are in making a better game.
[REDACTED]
Very much this. I have no problems with the actual result, I always felt it was kind of silly that a "race" is inherently evil for example, it makes storytelling difficult and one dimensional so I fully support it. This concept of racial customization was done very successfully in Pathfinder 2nd edition, its a great system and I think it will work well in D&D as well.
But I hate the reasons and the people who are pushing those reasons with every fiber of my being because its being driven by people who don't play D&D, don't like D&D hate the people playing D&D and the people creating D&D. What they want to do is destroy D&D and trying to force D&D to conform and admit their guilt is the agenda here, it just so happens that it will backfire on them and make D&D a better game, but I assure you that is not what they want. They want to destroy this game and vilify the people make it and play it, the hope for them was that Wizards of the Coast would reject this concept so that they would have justification and battle ground to do it on.
You have a chance for some reflection here. You think the actual thing they're doing is fine, but you're deeply angry at the reasons you perceive to be behind the changes.
Do you have sources for this? Do you know that this is because of some deep fundamentalist crusade, or have you just kind of assumed it? Maybe one crazy lady said something on Twitter or something. That doesn't mean it's a huge conspiracy to destroy D&D.
At least in the US, there are multiple groups who are actively promoting this kind of reactionary divisiveness, this assumption that everything that doesn't immediately conform to one's worldview is due to some fanatical agenda from the "other side." The idea that we are in this huge ideological war and giving up any ground to things associated with the enemy is a personal affront.
Don't let them divide us like this my dude. Look at these rules actually are: optional increased character customization and a move away from "these guys are automatically evil so you can kill them and feel good about it without any context." You can still use the old character creation. You can still make orcs absolutely evil in your campaign.
The OP characterizes this as doing away with old D&D. They're not taking anything away. They are just adding an optional degree of customization that should have been there from the start and have existed at some tables in homebrew form for years.
Everything else is marketing. The political context is just spin. If you're mad that acknowledgement of social justice issues has been determined to be a positive marketing tool, that's justifiable but not really relevant to a D&D forum.
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
It's a great idea. I can and should be able to make a world where orcs are wizards and arcane tricksters without be limited by the current races for the Orcs.
Honest question. Was there a reason why one couldn't already do that? I've been playing some campaigns with orcs as wizards and tricksters for nearly 30 years.
They have a -2 Intelligence in Volo's. Sure, you can just homebrew it as everyone tells me, but that is not official. It's going against the grain.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
That may be true mechanically, but it's certainly not true thematically in Faerun. Half-orcs are almost universally hated by Humans by simple nature of being Half-Orcs. The default behavior of NPCs will be automatic mistrust, and sometimes outright hatred of, a Half-Orc character played in Faerun. Meanwhile, if part of an Orcish clan, the Half-Orc will be a pariah within that society, constantly bullied and belittled by the clan warriors. It would not surprise me at all if they were to beat that character on a regular basis for no other reason than it's perceived inferiority to them.
All of this, of course, is a direct result of the "default" setting being in Faerun, where Orc clans are extremely pious in nature, and their god, Gruumsh, is venerated through raiding and pillaging those thought to be weaker than themselves. If you're in a setting other than Faerun, all of this goes out the window. Ultimately, the argument against "evil Orcs" is not an argument against discrimination, it's an argument against a stale setting with strange arbitrary worldbuilding qualities.
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
It's a great idea. I can and should be able to make a world where orcs are wizards and arcane tricksters without be limited by the current races for the Orcs.
Honest question. Was there a reason why one couldn't already do that? I've been playing some campaigns with orcs as wizards and tricksters for nearly 30 years.
They have a -2 Intelligence in Volo's. Sure, you can just homebrew it as everyone tells me, but that is not official. It's going against the grain.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
That may be true mechanically, but it's certainly not true thematically in Faerun. Half-orcs are almost universally hated by Humans by simple nature of being Half-Orcs. The default behavior of NPCs will be automatic mistrust, and sometimes outright hatred of, a Half-Orc character played in Faerun. Meanwhile, if part of an Orcish clan, the Half-Orc will be a pariah within that society, constantly bullied and belittled by the clan warriors. It would not surprise me at all if they were to beat that character on a regular basis for no other reason than it's perceived inferiority to them.
All of this, of course, is a direct result of the "default" setting being in Faerun, where Orc clans are extremely pious in nature, and their god, Gruumsh, is venerated through raiding and pillaging those thought to be weaker than themselves. If you're in a setting other than Faerun, all of this goes out the window. Ultimately, the argument against "evil Orcs" is not an argument against discrimination, it's an argument against a stale setting with strange arbitrary worldbuilding qualities.
Yes, but “raiding and pillaging those weaker than themselves” is by definition evil...
new question: who thinks this is a good idea? I am mixed, but for multiple unrelated reasons.
It's a great idea. I can and should be able to make a world where orcs are wizards and arcane tricksters without be limited by the current races for the Orcs.
Honest question. Was there a reason why one couldn't already do that? I've been playing some campaigns with orcs as wizards and tricksters for nearly 30 years.
They have a -2 Intelligence in Volo's. Sure, you can just homebrew it as everyone tells me, but that is not official. It's going against the grain.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
That may be true mechanically, but it's certainly not true thematically in Faerun. Half-orcs are almost universally hated by Humans by simple nature of being Half-Orcs. The default behavior of NPCs will be automatic mistrust, and sometimes outright hatred of, a Half-Orc character played in Faerun. Meanwhile, if part of an Orcish clan, the Half-Orc will be a pariah within that society, constantly bullied and belittled by the clan warriors. It would not surprise me at all if they were to beat that character on a regular basis for no other reason than it's perceived inferiority to them.
All of this, of course, is a direct result of the "default" setting being in Faerun, where Orc clans are extremely pious in nature, and their god, Gruumsh, is venerated through raiding and pillaging those thought to be weaker than themselves. If you're in a setting other than Faerun, all of this goes out the window. Ultimately, the argument against "evil Orcs" is not an argument against discrimination, it's an argument against a stale setting with strange arbitrary worldbuilding qualities.
Yes, but “raiding and pillaging those weaker than themselves” is by definition evil...
Which is entirely my point? Gruumsh is an evil god. His choice of proper veneration, naturally, includes evil acts.
But again, this only applies to Faerun. If you don't like Orcs behaving that way, then don't use Faerun as a setting. I really wish WotC would take a step away from Faerun because of issues like this.
This thread was originated with politically charged language and has repeatedly dipped into political or politically adjacent discussions which are not allowed per site rules. Additionally, there has been a lot of inflammatory language which does not engender respectful or inviting discussion, not create a welcoming and safe atmosphere to discuss D&D. As such, we will be locking this thread.
I believe in the motives of woke. The means to get there are probably the worst in history.
'every action, has an equal and opposite reaction'
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
"And this is the problem with this entire thread. It is a provocative, political term. And I strongly suspect the OP knows that." —Kotath
What term(s) would you use?
"Woke" has strong connotations, and I believe that is what Kotath is referring to.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
What does “woke” mean in this context? I am not a native speaker and only know it as the past tense of “wake”.
Woke means to be aware of something, particularly social injustice or racism. Going woke means that you make policies or changes to your life to be more socially aware or fair. It does however, have a host of negative political connation's that I won't discuss here.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It's not a great move mechanics wise for sure. Now everyone will either be a dwarf for +2 and +2 or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 more free skills or be less effective. In an attempt to make things fair they imbalanced the races so now there are actually best races and inferior ones whereas before each race had it's own flavor and niche.
Some people use it in a derogatory way
Also, I don’t mean to be mean, but the OP’s screen name literally means an old person who’s grumpy about younger people invading their hobby. That tends to imply that they don’t approve of being woke.
There are defo older people who are woke. But they probably wouldn’t describe themselves as grognards.
I think most people will pick their fave demihuman culture or species based more on flavor than mechanical benefit.
I don't think so. You could choose to go for pure ability scores with Dwarf or Half Elf, or you could get sweet traits like 120 ft darkvision, a swim speed, innate teleportation ect.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Yes, the different traits that each race have can still make for meaningful choices. Many race's racial traits aren't being touched at all outside of the decoupling of ASI, like the Aarakocra, Aasimar, Yuan-ti Pureblood and so on.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Yeah, that is a good idea. Just add a couple more points to point buy and up the standard array numbers a bit.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
While I agree generally with giving players more customization options and reducing the inattentive importing of stereotypes from pop culture/fiction into the game, I do agree that there is potential for abuse of the system for Min/Max-ing. The classic example would be the Dwarf Wizard. Since STR is a relatively useless stat in 5E, many would dump STR while wanting to keep medium armor proficiency b/c Dwarf and then put their highest stat into INT, thus getting some of the benefits of a martial class alongside the benefits of a full caster from level 1. It makes some class/race combinations a bit broken.
One solution to that would be for the DM to put a floor on minimum ability scores to use certain racial features, like a minimum '10' in STR to use medium armor, or a minimum '10' in DEX to retain Halfling Nimbleness.
Don't forget that there is almost NO reason to play an Orc vs. playing a Half-Orc using current rules. The implication here is that being 1/2 human Automatically makes a Half Orc better than an Orc IS pretty racist when you consider that, meanwhile, Half Elves are not treated as being better than Elves by RAW. Big contrast that is not a mere coincidence, as it ties in with legacy lore imported from the racially problematic Lord of the Rings series.
Hmm. Good point. Never thought of it that way.
You have a chance for some reflection here. You think the actual thing they're doing is fine, but you're deeply angry at the reasons you perceive to be behind the changes.
Do you have sources for this? Do you know that this is because of some deep fundamentalist crusade, or have you just kind of assumed it? Maybe one crazy lady said something on Twitter or something. That doesn't mean it's a huge conspiracy to destroy D&D.
At least in the US, there are multiple groups who are actively promoting this kind of reactionary divisiveness, this assumption that everything that doesn't immediately conform to one's worldview is due to some fanatical agenda from the "other side." The idea that we are in this huge ideological war and giving up any ground to things associated with the enemy is a personal affront.
Don't let them divide us like this my dude. Look at these rules actually are: optional increased character customization and a move away from "these guys are automatically evil so you can kill them and feel good about it without any context." You can still use the old character creation. You can still make orcs absolutely evil in your campaign.
The OP characterizes this as doing away with old D&D. They're not taking anything away. They are just adding an optional degree of customization that should have been there from the start and have existed at some tables in homebrew form for years.
Everything else is marketing. The political context is just spin. If you're mad that acknowledgement of social justice issues has been determined to be a positive marketing tool, that's justifiable but not really relevant to a D&D forum.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
So dndbeyond now allows political posts on their site? I mean this is cool but doesn’t this break rules on posting?
That may be true mechanically, but it's certainly not true thematically in Faerun. Half-orcs are almost universally hated by Humans by simple nature of being Half-Orcs. The default behavior of NPCs will be automatic mistrust, and sometimes outright hatred of, a Half-Orc character played in Faerun. Meanwhile, if part of an Orcish clan, the Half-Orc will be a pariah within that society, constantly bullied and belittled by the clan warriors. It would not surprise me at all if they were to beat that character on a regular basis for no other reason than it's perceived inferiority to them.
All of this, of course, is a direct result of the "default" setting being in Faerun, where Orc clans are extremely pious in nature, and their god, Gruumsh, is venerated through raiding and pillaging those thought to be weaker than themselves. If you're in a setting other than Faerun, all of this goes out the window. Ultimately, the argument against "evil Orcs" is not an argument against discrimination, it's an argument against a stale setting with strange arbitrary worldbuilding qualities.
Yes, but “raiding and pillaging those weaker than themselves” is by definition evil...
Which is entirely my point? Gruumsh is an evil god. His choice of proper veneration, naturally, includes evil acts.
But again, this only applies to Faerun. If you don't like Orcs behaving that way, then don't use Faerun as a setting. I really wish WotC would take a step away from Faerun because of issues like this.
This thread was originated with politically charged language and has repeatedly dipped into political or politically adjacent discussions which are not allowed per site rules. Additionally, there has been a lot of inflammatory language which does not engender respectful or inviting discussion, not create a welcoming and safe atmosphere to discuss D&D. As such, we will be locking this thread.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here