I was just looking over the UA and found this little text box:
"In 2020, the book Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything introduced the option to customize several of your character’s racial traits, specifically the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, and traits that give skill, armor, weapon, or tool proficiencies. Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage. Finally, going forward, the term “race” in D&D refers only to the suite of game features used by player characters. Said features don’t have any bearing on monsters and NPCs who are members of the same species or lineage, since monsters and NPCs in D&D don’t rely on race or class to function. Moreover, DMs are empowered to customize the features of the creatures in their game as they wish."
That's a lot to read, but essentially Tasha's new variant rules are no longer variants? I personally very much dislike this. I mean, adding the new rules are fine, but don't completely remove the original ones for the many, many players and DMs who still use and love them. I know for a fact many people here on the forums and people who play D&D in general like that each race has weapon proficiencies, alignment indicators, and such. Just because a small portion of the fanbase doesn't embrace the normal fantasy archetypes doesn't mean everyone agrees with that small portion.
That's the end of my rant, I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but just wanted to see if anyone else thinks they shouldn't completely bin the old way of making races.
Yup, looks like I'll be homebrewing race stuff if new ones are released. I'll be curious to see what kind of cultural background blurb new races might get as well.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Some people like the changing to Tasha's Lineage systems for future content as this could potentially open up a lot of creative freedom and diversity to the character creation system. Others prefer the older system, liking the more mechanically restrictive method of character creation for its simplicity and its encouragement to think outside the box as far as creating their characters. I don't feel that either version of the system is in and of itself better than the other (speaking only for myself) and each work better for different people and how they express their creativity.
I am currently not sure on the direction, I need to see more on how they plan of handling racial and cultural traits later on. I am willing to be open if they are truly going to revamp the system but I can't help but be sceptical that they will really change how things work considering their prior lack of desire to go and update or fix older released material, causing some to become frustrated that newer content suffers from "Power Creep".
Ultimately, we will see.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Eh, it's just a different approach. I don't think it's objectively worse to determine your characteristics based on where you grew up and what happened to you instead of who your parents were, so to me it's not really worth getting upset about.
I'm also waiting to see where they've shifted that info to. I can't see them getting rid of it completely, so I'm waiting to see if it's going into backgrounds, or something else. I'm assuming they're just breaking the components down into smaller mix-and-match parts, but I want to see how those pieces are going to stick together.
Do I want them to keep the old style races? Yes, yes I do. I really hope they keep making new races and subraces, along with the new lineage system.
What do I think about the new lineage system?
I am hopeful, but hesitant.
I like the idea. I really do! I want to play a Dhampir Dwarf priest of Hel. Playing Siregar, the reborn fighter sounds like it would be real fun. The only thing is, I'm not sure if Wotc will implement it correctly. To add a whole new Lineage system to the game, they need to do a couple of things.
1. Better Backgrounds. Backgrounds are, not great at the moment. They give you a few proficiencies and a ability you will rarely use, but what else? It needs to be more fleshed out and integral to your character.
2. Loss of integral body features. Centaurs can climb! Aarakocra are now kenku's that can talk! Kenku's are now Aarakocra without wings! Warforged have to sleep just like the rest of us! These don't make any sense. Why is it, if you are a Hexblood Centaur, you now are just a human? Why is it, Kenku's aren't cursed anymore, and now are humans with feathers taped on? Same with Aarakocra. Tortles don't have their shells anymore, and now are just wrinkly green humans! If they don't do it right, most races are just going to be humans. With scales, feathers or fur. This is my main concern. Hopefully they find a way to combat this.
Otherwise? I'm really hopeful! I think the Lineage system could be great, if Wotc implements if correctly. If they do it wrong, I hope they realize their mistake and continue making old style races.
2. Loss of integral body features. Centaurs can climb! Aarakocra are now kenku's that can talk! Kenku's are now Aarakocra without wings! Warforged have to sleep just like the rest of us! These don't make any sense. Why is it, if you are a Hexblood Centaur, you now are just a human? Why is it, Kenku's aren't cursed anymore, and now are humans with feathers taped on? Same with Aarakocra. Tortles don't have their shells anymore, and now are just wrinkly green humans! If they don't do it right, most races are just going to be humans. With scales, feathers or fur. This is my main concern. Hopefully they find a way to combat this.
Yeah, this is my biggest problem with the UA.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My mistake, I didn't know about that thread or how chaotic it got. In that case, I think it's safe to delete this post or have it locked or something, seeing as this topic has already been discussed.
My mistake, I didn't know about that thread or how chaotic it got. In that case, I think it's safe to delete this post or have it locked or something, seeing as this topic has already been discussed.
The lineage system is flawed, but I hope as time goes on it will become more polished. I feel like we'll be getting two different types of races in the future, traditional races (with the cultural things being removed) and lineages. (as seen in the UA)
I would argue that this thread should stay in place, since while there was some good thinking and discussion in that thread it unfortunately got locked for ... I'll just reasons and the thread going to places it shouldn't have and/or could have done better if people brought their better selves to it. Nothing wrong with rehashing a conversation that would require re-reading a lot of off topic toxicity in the end. Call it recovering the topic in all senses.
I think this is a first step as UA, including the "this is how we're going to do lineages going forward" text. Questions are begged, more so than most UA since those "global" statements to lineage are being made. I got a feeling the Gothlines (trying to make that portmanteau of gothic and lineage a thing) are maybe/hopefully slated for something in 2022 as opposed to this year's cycle, so they can get and implement change to lineage based on broader playtest feedback. I mean Goth lineage has some monstrous transformations. The RL lore Fey tend to dance with has equally transformative elements to it that could be powerfully addressed in game by a range of fey-related lineages that could be taken on ... if lineages are being done right, and I'm not sure on that yet (at least for those who want to add lineage to their pre-existing character).
I do see a 5.5, if they call it that, or a "Golden Edition" in 2024 that merges PHB with the Tasha's options. The ability to construct lineage based characters will be there ... and "the classic" races will be provided as model builds you can just run with if you don't want to get involved in lineage attunement. That said the PHB race system and the lineage system seen so far are not in complete harmony and will require some tuning before it gets there. I think that can be done over two years or so. Maybe we'll even get a more explicit and diverse system of optional class features too.
I think they should absolutely number the new stuff 5.5th edition, so that people can easily choose which way they want to run their games.... the original 5e way, or the post-Tasha way. It's clear some like it one way, and some like it the other way, so forking the editions is the best way to do it. They can then "feature freeze" 5.0 and leave it as is, and do all the remaining changes/edits/etc. to 5.5.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Do I want them to keep the old style races? Yes, yes I do. I really hope they keep making new races and subraces, along with the new lineage system.
What do I think about the new lineage system?
I am hopeful, but hesitant.
I like the idea. I really do! I want to play a Dhampir Dwarf priest of Hel. Playing Siregar, the reborn fighter sounds like it would be real fun. The only thing is, I'm not sure if Wotc will implement it correctly. To add a whole new Lineage system to the game, they need to do a couple of things.
1. Better Backgrounds. Backgrounds are, not great at the moment. They give you a few proficiencies and a ability you will rarely use, but what else? It needs to be more fleshed out and integral to your character.
2. Loss of integral body features. Centaurs can climb! Aarakocra are now kenku's that can talk! Kenku's are now Aarakocra without wings! Warforged have to sleep just like the rest of us! These don't make any sense. Why is it, if you are a Hexblood Centaur, you now are just a human? Why is it, Kenku's aren't cursed anymore, and now are humans with feathers taped on? Same with Aarakocra. Tortles don't have their shells anymore, and now are just wrinkly green humans! If they don't do it right, most races are just going to be humans. With scales, feathers or fur. This is my main concern. Hopefully they find a way to combat this.
Otherwise? I'm really hopeful! I think the Lineage system could be great, if Wotc implements if correctly. If they do it wrong, I hope they realize their mistake and continue making old style races.
That’s what the new UA races are doing. The reborn, hexblood, dhampir basically replace your race. So say you are the forest gnome from the UA quote but you decide to be a Dhampir who survived being attacked by a vampire (option 3 on the table) You lose your innate magic, you walk faster, you are no longer a gnome. Could this be a problem down the line? We will have to see.
I don’t play with some of the races you mentioned like tortle but I like some of the options they are bringing forward. Just because you use the new lineage feature at creation (excluding the ones in this UA) doesn’t mean they lose their shell but other cultural things will get moved elsewhere.
1. Stop referring to anything as 5.5e! There was exactly one edition that did this. ONE. There's not going to be a .5 edition so just stop it.
2. Just because something has been done a certain way for x amount of time didn't mean it shouldn't change. That's really the crux of this entire argument. Detractors of the lineage system will trot ridiculous examples of why it's flawed, scroll a few posts up and you'll see an example. This is a game at the end of the day. A game about creativity to boot. And yet there's a very vocal group of people basically saying creativity for races is bad. I just don't get it.
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Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
1. Stop referring to anything as 5.5e! There was exactly one edition that did this. ONE. There's not going to be a .5 edition so just stop it.
People who call it "5.5e" aren't saying that it will ever be officially deemed such, but are instead using as a way to denote the rise in higher complexity content.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I think they should absolutely number the new stuff 5.5th edition, so that people can easily choose which way they want to run their games.... the original 5e way, or the post-Tasha way. It's clear some like it one way, and some like it the other way, so forking the editions is the best way to do it. They can then "feature freeze" 5.0 and leave it as is, and do all the remaining changes/edits/etc. to 5.5.
It's not like everyone's going to either prefer everything from pre-Tasha and nothing from post-Tasha or vice versa. I don't like the optional race stuff, but I do like the optional class stuff (there just should have been more of it, for (sub)classes that didn't get mentioned). I like a lot about the original classes, but there's still stuff I'd like to see improved among them. What's the point of a feature freeze if people are likely still going to pick what they like and ignore what they don't?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
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I was just looking over the UA and found this little text box:
"In 2020, the book Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything introduced the option to customize several of your character’s racial traits, specifically the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, and traits that give skill, armor, weapon, or tool proficiencies. Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage. Finally, going forward, the term “race” in D&D refers only to the suite of game features used by player characters. Said features don’t have any bearing on monsters and NPCs who are members of the same species or lineage, since monsters and NPCs in D&D don’t rely on race or class to function. Moreover, DMs are empowered to customize the features of the creatures in their game as they wish."
That's a lot to read, but essentially Tasha's new variant rules are no longer variants? I personally very much dislike this. I mean, adding the new rules are fine, but don't completely remove the original ones for the many, many players and DMs who still use and love them. I know for a fact many people here on the forums and people who play D&D in general like that each race has weapon proficiencies, alignment indicators, and such. Just because a small portion of the fanbase doesn't embrace the normal fantasy archetypes doesn't mean everyone agrees with that small portion.
That's the end of my rant, I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but just wanted to see if anyone else thinks they shouldn't completely bin the old way of making races.
Yup, looks like I'll be homebrewing race stuff if new ones are released. I'll be curious to see what kind of cultural background blurb new races might get as well.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Just gonna leave this here: Twenty-two pages of "discussion" on exactly this subject.
Please do not contact or message me.
Some people like the changing to Tasha's Lineage systems for future content as this could potentially open up a lot of creative freedom and diversity to the character creation system. Others prefer the older system, liking the more mechanically restrictive method of character creation for its simplicity and its encouragement to think outside the box as far as creating their characters. I don't feel that either version of the system is in and of itself better than the other (speaking only for myself) and each work better for different people and how they express their creativity.
I am currently not sure on the direction, I need to see more on how they plan of handling racial and cultural traits later on. I am willing to be open if they are truly going to revamp the system but I can't help but be sceptical that they will really change how things work considering their prior lack of desire to go and update or fix older released material, causing some to become frustrated that newer content suffers from "Power Creep".
Ultimately, we will see.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Eh, it's just a different approach. I don't think it's objectively worse to determine your characteristics based on where you grew up and what happened to you instead of who your parents were, so to me it's not really worth getting upset about.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'm in the "wait and see camp." I like what I see so far, but this is still UA and could get better or worse.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Tasha's is basically the start of 5.5e. As with every new edition, there will be liked stuff, and there will be disliked stuff.
I'm also waiting to see where they've shifted that info to. I can't see them getting rid of it completely, so I'm waiting to see if it's going into backgrounds, or something else. I'm assuming they're just breaking the components down into smaller mix-and-match parts, but I want to see how those pieces are going to stick together.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Just remember we have the power to homebrew whatever we don't like. I've accepted that I'm no longer the target audience for Wizards long ago.
Do I want them to keep the old style races? Yes, yes I do. I really hope they keep making new races and subraces, along with the new lineage system.
What do I think about the new lineage system?
I am hopeful, but hesitant.
I like the idea. I really do! I want to play a Dhampir Dwarf priest of Hel. Playing Siregar, the reborn fighter sounds like it would be real fun. The only thing is, I'm not sure if Wotc will implement it correctly. To add a whole new Lineage system to the game, they need to do a couple of things.
1. Better Backgrounds. Backgrounds are, not great at the moment. They give you a few proficiencies and a ability you will rarely use, but what else? It needs to be more fleshed out and integral to your character.
2. Loss of integral body features. Centaurs can climb! Aarakocra are now kenku's that can talk! Kenku's are now Aarakocra without wings! Warforged have to sleep just like the rest of us! These don't make any sense. Why is it, if you are a Hexblood Centaur, you now are just a human? Why is it, Kenku's aren't cursed anymore, and now are humans with feathers taped on? Same with Aarakocra. Tortles don't have their shells anymore, and now are just wrinkly green humans! If they don't do it right, most races are just going to be humans. With scales, feathers or fur. This is my main concern. Hopefully they find a way to combat this.
Otherwise? I'm really hopeful! I think the Lineage system could be great, if Wotc implements if correctly. If they do it wrong, I hope they realize their mistake and continue making old style races.
When players get creative.
Yeah, this is my biggest problem with the UA.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
My mistake, I didn't know about that thread or how chaotic it got. In that case, I think it's safe to delete this post or have it locked or something, seeing as this topic has already been discussed.
Probably.
When players get creative.
The lineage system is flawed, but I hope as time goes on it will become more polished. I feel like we'll be getting two different types of races in the future, traditional races (with the cultural things being removed) and lineages. (as seen in the UA)
I would argue that this thread should stay in place, since while there was some good thinking and discussion in that thread it unfortunately got locked for ... I'll just reasons and the thread going to places it shouldn't have and/or could have done better if people brought their better selves to it. Nothing wrong with rehashing a conversation that would require re-reading a lot of off topic toxicity in the end. Call it recovering the topic in all senses.
I think this is a first step as UA, including the "this is how we're going to do lineages going forward" text. Questions are begged, more so than most UA since those "global" statements to lineage are being made. I got a feeling the Gothlines (trying to make that portmanteau of gothic and lineage a thing) are maybe/hopefully slated for something in 2022 as opposed to this year's cycle, so they can get and implement change to lineage based on broader playtest feedback. I mean Goth lineage has some monstrous transformations. The RL lore Fey tend to dance with has equally transformative elements to it that could be powerfully addressed in game by a range of fey-related lineages that could be taken on ... if lineages are being done right, and I'm not sure on that yet (at least for those who want to add lineage to their pre-existing character).
I do see a 5.5, if they call it that, or a "Golden Edition" in 2024 that merges PHB with the Tasha's options. The ability to construct lineage based characters will be there ... and "the classic" races will be provided as model builds you can just run with if you don't want to get involved in lineage attunement. That said the PHB race system and the lineage system seen so far are not in complete harmony and will require some tuning before it gets there. I think that can be done over two years or so. Maybe we'll even get a more explicit and diverse system of optional class features too.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think they should absolutely number the new stuff 5.5th edition, so that people can easily choose which way they want to run their games.... the original 5e way, or the post-Tasha way. It's clear some like it one way, and some like it the other way, so forking the editions is the best way to do it. They can then "feature freeze" 5.0 and leave it as is, and do all the remaining changes/edits/etc. to 5.5.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That’s what the new UA races are doing. The reborn, hexblood, dhampir basically replace your race. So say you are the forest gnome from the UA quote but you decide to be a Dhampir who survived being attacked by a vampire (option 3 on the table) You lose your innate magic, you walk faster, you are no longer a gnome. Could this be a problem down the line? We will have to see.
I don’t play with some of the races you mentioned like tortle but I like some of the options they are bringing forward. Just because you use the new lineage feature at creation (excluding the ones in this UA) doesn’t mean they lose their shell but other cultural things will get moved elsewhere.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I'm going to pop in and say two things.
1. Stop referring to anything as 5.5e! There was exactly one edition that did this. ONE. There's not going to be a .5 edition so just stop it.
2. Just because something has been done a certain way for x amount of time didn't mean it shouldn't change. That's really the crux of this entire argument. Detractors of the lineage system will trot ridiculous examples of why it's flawed, scroll a few posts up and you'll see an example. This is a game at the end of the day. A game about creativity to boot. And yet there's a very vocal group of people basically saying creativity for races is bad. I just don't get it.
Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
Quicksilver & The Scarlet Witch - A pair of magical firearms for your Gunslinger or Artificer.
People who call it "5.5e" aren't saying that it will ever be officially deemed such, but are instead using as a way to denote the rise in higher complexity content.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It's not like everyone's going to either prefer everything from pre-Tasha and nothing from post-Tasha or vice versa. I don't like the optional race stuff, but I do like the optional class stuff (there just should have been more of it, for (sub)classes that didn't get mentioned). I like a lot about the original classes, but there's still stuff I'd like to see improved among them. What's the point of a feature freeze if people are likely still going to pick what they like and ignore what they don't?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].