I'm also not familiar with the architecture of the system, but whichever would be the easiest and most cost effective way to do it, should have already been done. perhaps the entire site should be, for the time being, put on hold for new content, while something new is built from the ground up, that would be able to not only accommodate current users regardless the edition of the rules they use, but be able to be forward compatible with any future large scale changes that would affect the 2024 rules users. I've seen references to spaghetti code from the original development, and rebuilding the entire thing just might be the solution for all of it.
I don' t think putting the site on hold is the answer; that means everyone that has paid for and wants the rules updates they've purchased loses out instead and isn't any better than what everyone's complaining about currently. I do agree that they should've anticipated this being a problem for some because you can never please everyone BUT they're following their policy in updating the site to the latest rules so, at least from my perspective, this was always expected.
It sucks that so many are hurt by this update and I think my proposal is a quick, easy solution even if it's only a temporary one. I have no control over WotC or the DDB team, though, I can only offer my suggestions to help the situation.
Maybe I need to clarify what I meant by put on hold. I meant put on hold the addition of new content that would generate breakages for people using the 2014 rules. That would only apply of course, if they were to rebuild the whole thing better, without internal code that could otherwise break things for everybody. Sorry about that.
Right... So if they held on pushing the update, everyone that wants the update would not get the update and would, thus, be the ones throwing angry fits on the forums right now.
And I see I need FURTHER clarification, though I think it's more a you thing and not a me thing, in the understanding department.
I NEVER said pause DDB as it currently operates, meaning so that nobody could use it in the interim. What I do know about software development is that new versions can be developed offline at the same time the original operational piece of software is running. Windows is a perfect example literally everybody should understand. Your PC doesn't just stop working because they are working on the next version. Development of a new version of DDB, one free of the spaghetti code I have seen mentioned many times here and elsewhere, COULD definitely happen, should Hasbro/WotC determine it is worth money. Not time, because we all know money is their driving motivation. As far as holding off pushing the 2024 rules update, that might not be a bad thing, if they decide to listen to their customers, and add those 100+ spells and the magic items that are planned to be left off, to Legacy status. but I hadn't considered that until you brought it up.
To be honest, they should have seen this coming. They should have taken the time to implement it so that nobody was angry. But they didn't.
And, yes, they should've seen it coming because, how silly of them to assume that everyone would just use the latest version of the rules on their official toolset. That's why I offered the DDB Classic option as a quick and easy means of giving EVERYONE what they want. :)
They should have seen it coming because all the messaging from WotC and DDB has been that 2014 rules are still valid alongside the 2024 rules, that DMs can mix both rulesets and that both sets of rules. The first we've heard about 2014 rules being removed from the character builder was the changlog. Even now there's nothing on the front page of the site saying that 2014 rules are going, anyone not on the forums will be getting a nice surprise on the 3rd.
Also, can I just say how frustrating it is for people (and your not the only one) to keep saying that we should have expected it as they're new rules, as if it's our fault and we're being unreasonable in our expectations. Last time content was superceded, with MMotM, the old content was kept and put under a legacy tag, exactly what we were led to expect here. They've even done it with some features here, which shows that the standard isn't to delete content. They just need to finish the job.
1. Nothing about the changes to D&D Beyond breaks the backwards compatibility from the update to the old rules. You can play your 2014 character alongside 2024 characters and in 2014 adventures all day long. However, the D&D Beyond functionality is obviously problematic and, as I've expressed to you multiple times, I'm 100 percent certain it is due to system and resource limitations, but that's neither here nor there. I get that people are angry and I understand why. What I don't get is why they automatically think the implementation is nefarious and not just emblematic of the platform.
2. I am sorry if it is frustrating to you but, yes, it has always been the policy of DDB to use the latest ruleset so I do believe this should've been expected, at least to some extent. Does that mean the messaging wasn't bad? No. But I wasn't surprised they announced updated rules would be implemented with the release of the books and since I live in Software Development land, perhaps I am less surprised by the fact that they would need to update their database entries to make those rules updates. And, yes, I agree that the proposals you and others have made with regards to "toggle" functionality are perfectly possible BUT my point from the get go is that they likely do not have the resources to fix the system to do that in a timely manner. This is exactly why I've made the suggestion to just create a DDB Classic multiple times now.
3. I hope they are able to find an amicable solution for everyone, whether it is my proposal or something else.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Omg… why are so many of you indulging in a daft argument about how many people want x and how many people want y???
it’s really not relevant!
we all paid for x (2014 spells). It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if other people want Y (2024 spells), because wanting other things doesn’t negate what customers actually bought! There is no justification for REMOVING access to the tool we all paid for, for the content we actually bought. I’m super happy for those who wanted the 2024 spells and are getting them, awesome… but it’s simply irrelevant to the debate here.
“oh I got something free that I wanted!” Doesn’t actually negate people validly critiquing a paid for tool, that customers were advertised access to (and that drove most sales, because let’s be honest the vast majority of us didn’t use dnd beyond for the compendium!), being forcefully changed so they can no longer use said tools with the content they actually paid for. It is not up to WotC to determine what we spend our money on.
Debating how many people are happy with the free stuff, is just pointless as it genuinely really doesn’t matter!
The only issue here is that we were sold a product stating that it unlocked the exact content we bought for the toolset DDB provides. That is undeniably being removed with very little notice and is in all likelihood in breach of numerous trading standards regulations internationally. Let’s stay focused on that, rather than attacking each other over if they’re happy or not about the change. (because again people's happiness or not about the change is irrelevant to the topic at hand.)
What spells did you pay for? The ones that were not in the free DnD core rules. So that's like Lomond's tiny hut as opposed to Tiny Hut?
I paid for the content as it stood… every purchase I’ve made is on the predication that I get to use the tools feature as a coherent toolset for the 2014 version of the game. (I am also a DM subscriber and I have the legendary bundle.)
I play the game because I enjoy how the game plays currently - if you’re attempting a “well actually the spells were free…” type argument - which apart from being incorrect, is also deliberately reductive, then sure knock yourself out but I’m not particularly interested in that kind of debate because it overlooks how people engage with the game and what’s drove sales in the first place. (For example I didn’t buy every other book to play with the 2024 spell set, I did it to play with the 2014 spell set - assuming I would have still have shelled out that money for the other books to use the 2024 spell set is simply not their assumption to make on my money.)
the advertising about the 2024 version has repeatedly been it’s not going to affect tables that don’t wish to change from the 2014 version… this is clearly now not the case and I don’t really understand how anyone wants to sit there arguing about if it’s okay or not for them not to put in the extra work and allow some form of toggle that lets people continue to use 2014 character sheets with the accompanying 2014 content - rather than forcing 2024 content into all character sheets for the convenience of WotC?
but they promised us that it would be 100% backwards compatible. which was a lie.
I don't disagree with this. There are maybe 2 or 3 people who have actually cared to read and communicate a fair understanding of where I stand on this issue as a whole. I have voiced that I am less than pleased, but I am not angry because I am getting what I see as better versions of the content I own without having to pay anything at all. I would have preferred an easier transition, perhaps one that doesn't burden hardliner 2014 players so, but I am only going to be playing 2014 for as long as my DMs are requiring it. Once they move to 2024, I will as well and never look back. Legacy tags is an option, and surely one that the devs had considered. There are many possible reasons that I can think of for why they did not use that option for magic items and spells, but I only have the visibility into this issue as a consumer, which is limited.
Those hardliner 2014 players feel very differently and their feelings are valid.
that doesn't change that they said it would be backwards compatible and they lied about it. It don't matter what reasons you can think about it. any company that is willing to freely lie to their consumers is a bad thing hard stop
"Some people are okay with these changes, and some are not"
Let me correct that for you...
"A very, very, very small percentage of people are okay with these changes, while the overwhelmingly vast majority of people are not"
Semantics. People who have negative opinions are generally more vocal about their displeasure than those who are okay with something. Those who are okay with something, as I'm seeing here, are quick to be called 'shills', 'sheep', or any other negative moniker.
I've been following multiple threads on here the last few days and I have not seen anyone called names because they like the changes. The only ones I've seen called names are those that are insisting other people should like the new rules or trying to tell us we're not losing anything.
Can I also say how disappointing it is that the only response we've had from staff on here is one person dropping "clarifications" that ignore 90% of what the problems are, and the other saying that an issue where 99% of responses are against it is "some like it, some don't" and "it's just a vocal minority".
We're all aware that you and the team are usually as in the dark as us, and many of us have tried to make clear in our responses here and on the discord that we are not blaming or upset with the mods etc. But when you both come in and just ignore or dismiss our complaints like that it's hard trust that you're actually listening, or that you'll pass on our complaints fairly.
I think it's fair for the DnDB team to take time before they formulate a response. Actions taken in haste can never be taken back. In situations like this is is almost impossible to appease everyone involved. I'd rather the team analyze the situation and take a tactical pause.
Give it time.
I'd agree with you, however I have no faith that DDB or WotC will respond. Their modus operandi has always been to ignore complaints until we give up and move on.
The reason I have respect for LaTiaJacquise and the mod team is the time they spent during the marketplace debacle gathering feedback and answering what questions they could (which wasn't much as they seemed to be informed of that change not long before we were). That's why I'm all the more concerned that both responses this time seem to be dismissing our concerns.
DDB never actually responded to the Marketplace feedback though. I don't remember them even acknowledging that there was a problem.
That's unfair. They've literally crafted 5E on community feedback and continue to do so up to and including the 2024 update everyone is currently up in arms over.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
That's just monumentally stupid. They aren't giving you anything. They're forcibly taking away content that you paid for because you wanted it and replacing it with something you may or may not want. For anybody who's in the middle of a campaign and doesn't want a massive shift like this in the middle of their game, (which is nigh on every single person who regularly uses D&D beyond) this change is nothing but inconvenient at best and at worst it makes the app downright unusable. As he said, if you now have to reference the compendium every single time you want to do anything because they took away or replaced everything on your interactive character sheet, this is just objectively worse than using a book and a paper character sheet. You might have a point if it were optional or if character sheets still showed the 2014 versions of spells and items alongside the new version. But neither of those things were implemented so it is, in reality, just WoTC stealing the things you already paid for and replacing it with trash you didn't ask for.
They are giving you something - updated versions of what you own. You can feel it is stupid if you want though. I disagree on whether the decision is stupid. Less than ideal, maybe, but not stupid.
do you legitimately not understand the difference between being given something and having something you like stolen and replaced with something worthless to you? Sorry but being "given" something with 0 value is the same thing as being given nothing. This is nothing but a net loss. People paid for the 2014 content and that content is being stolen from them. This is nothing more than theft. Having looked at the 2024 rules it's honestly worse than being given nothing. It's more like having everything I paid for stolen and then promptly getting your shins broken too just for fun. It's worth less than nothing, it is a detriment.
Ironically, I'd been considering buying a 2024 PHB just to check it out - it's just been on the backburner because I've been busy with other stuff, and haven't checked out all the YouTube videos reviewing it and stuff. Now I'm friggin p*ssed at it because I'm using D&D Beyond for all my stuff (as do most of the folks in my gaming groups), and everyone's been assuming there aren't going to be ANY surprises with using the 2014 stuff "as is". So what happens in a game when someone casts Counterspell (or whatever) and half the folks are using 2014 and the other half 2024, and we get bogged down into rules lawyers using two different rule books? ("We're in a 2014 campaign!" "Yeah, but they said it's an eratta!" "That's just BS to force folks to buy the new stuff. My physical book says it's 2014, so it's 2014"). I remember this from D&D 3.0 vs 3.5, and it left some bad feelings (and then it was just folks had out of date books).
The very simple guidance in the book basically boils down to "use your 2014 character in the 2024 rules, not the other way around."
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Omg… why are so many of you indulging in a daft argument about how many people want x and how many people want y???
it’s really not relevant!
we all paid for x (2014 spells). It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if other people want Y (2024 spells), because wanting other things doesn’t negate what customers actually bought! There is no justification for REMOVING access to the tool we all paid for, for the content we actually bought. I’m super happy for those who wanted the 2024 spells and are getting them, awesome… but it’s simply irrelevant to the debate here.
“oh I got something free that I wanted!” Doesn’t actually negate people validly critiquing a paid for tool, that customers were advertised access to (and that drove most sales, because let’s be honest the vast majority of us didn’t use dnd beyond for the compendium!), being forcefully changed so they can no longer use said tools with the content they actually paid for. It is not up to WotC to determine what we spend our money on.
Debating how many people are happy with the free stuff, is just pointless as it genuinely really doesn’t matter!
The only issue here is that we were sold a product stating that it unlocked the exact content we bought for the toolset DDB provides. That is undeniably being removed with very little notice and is in all likelihood in breach of numerous trading standards regulations internationally. Let’s stay focused on that, rather than attacking each other over if they’re happy or not about the change. (because again people's happiness or not about the change is irrelevant to the topic at hand.)
What spells did you pay for? The ones that were not in the free DnD core rules. So that's like Lomond's tiny hut as opposed to Tiny Hut?
I paid for the content as it stood… every purchase I’ve made is on the predication that I get to use the tools feature as a coherent toolset for the 2014 version of the game. (I am also a DM subscriber and I have the legendary bundle.)
I play the game because I enjoy how the game plays currently - if you’re attempting a “well actually the spells were free…” type argument - which apart from being incorrect, is also deliberately reductive, then sure knock yourself out but I’m not particularly interested in that kind of debate because it overlooks how people engage with the game and what’s drove sales in the first place. (For example I didn’t buy every other book to play with the 2024 spell set, I did it to play with the 2014 spell set - assuming I would have still have shelled out that money for the other books to use the 2024 spell set is simply not their assumption to make on my money.)
the advertising about the 2024 version has repeatedly been it’s not going to affect tables that don’t wish to change from the 2014 version… this is clearly now not the case and I don’t really understand how anyone wants to sit there arguing about if it’s okay or not for them not to put in the extra work and allow some form of toggle that lets people continue to use 2014 character sheets with the accompanying 2014 content - rather than forcing 2024 content into all character sheets for the convenience of WotC?
The "2014 spells" were free in the in the Free Core Rules. So those spells being replaced by Spells for free is a moot point. Spells from XGTE, TCoE, and other source books that don't appear in the new PHB are expanded rules content that You're not losing.
You're 2nd point however is very valid. I can see how it is very frustrating for those who want to use the old spells. (Again I don't see why you'd want more than 4 or 5 of them, but sure). Most importantly is the lack of choice. DnD players hate losing agency. So that's fair.
that doesn't change that they said it would be backwards compatible and they lied about it. It don't matter what reasons you can think about it. any company that is willing to freely lie to their consumers is a bad thing hard stop
I don't really understand why this comment, or your previous one for that matter, is even addressed to me. When have I ever talked about what WotC promised and did or did not deliver on? I do believe it is backwards compatible still, only perhaps not how you or I had envisioned that looking.
The one argument I can see for not having a 2014 and 2024 separated spell list and app functionality is that having twice the list means twice the server cost,. That and they really want to push people into buying 2024 books. Other than those two reasons, they shouldn't have lied to us and said everything was going to be backwards compatible.
True, but at the same time I think it would be cheaper than losing a bunch of customers. However, I'm not in a position to know that to be a fact. However, no one lied to you about backward compatibility. I assure you you can play your 2014 character in the 2024 update with no issues. It's the DDB functionality that's an issue, not the rules.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
but they promised us that it would be 100% backwards compatible. which was a lie.
The rules are 100% backwards compatible. At issue is that DDB has some functionality concerns. There was, however, no lie.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
That's just monumentally stupid. They aren't giving you anything. They're forcibly taking away content that you paid for because you wanted it and replacing it with something you may or may not want. For anybody who's in the middle of a campaign and doesn't want a massive shift like this in the middle of their game, (which is nigh on every single person who regularly uses D&D beyond) this change is nothing but inconvenient at best and at worst it makes the app downright unusable. As he said, if you now have to reference the compendium every single time you want to do anything because they took away or replaced everything on your interactive character sheet, this is just objectively worse than using a book and a paper character sheet. You might have a point if it were optional or if character sheets still showed the 2014 versions of spells and items alongside the new version. But neither of those things were implemented so it is, in reality, just WoTC stealing the things you already paid for and replacing it with trash you didn't ask for.
They are giving you something - updated versions of what you own. You can feel it is stupid if you want though. I disagree on whether the decision is stupid. Less than ideal, maybe, but not stupid.
do you legitimately not understand the difference between being given something and having something you like stolen and replaced with something worthless to you? Sorry but being "given" something with 0 value is the same thing as being given nothing. This is nothing but a net loss. People paid for the 2014 content and that content is being stolen from them. This is nothing more than theft. Having looked at the 2024 rules it's honestly worse than being given nothing. It's more like having everything I paid for stolen and then promptly getting your shins broken too just for fun. It's worth less than nothing, it is a detriment.
I understand that some people prefer to have 2014 versions taken away and nothing given in return. I simply disagree with that position.
2. I am sorry if it is frustrating to you but, yes, it has always been the policy of DDB to use the latest ruleset so I do believe this should've been expected, at least to some extent. Does that mean the messaging wasn't bad? No. But I wasn't surprised they announced updated rules would be implemented with the release of the books and since I live in Software Development land, perhaps I am less surprised by the fact that they would need to update their database entries to make those rules updates. And, yes, I agree that the proposals you and others have made with regards to "toggle" functionality are perfectly possible BUT my point from the get go is that they likely do not have the resources to fix the system to do that in a timely manner. This is exactly why I've made the suggestion to just create a DDB Classic multiple times now.
Now that you've mentioned it, you're right! They errata things all the time, and sucks to be you, you don't get to keep what you've bought previously... we shouldn't be surprised, given WotC is treating 5.5 as an errata for 5E. It still sucks, but I guess there was daily precedence for that.
That's unfair. They've literally crafted 5E on community feedback and continue to do so up to and including the 2024 update everyone is currently up in arms over.
Weird question but lets say I own the 2014 PHB and I want to look up spells will the only place I will be able to see the 2024 will be on my character sheet if I do not own the license for the 2024 PHB
I'm also not familiar with the architecture of the system, but whichever would be the easiest and most cost effective way to do it, should have already been done. perhaps the entire site should be, for the time being, put on hold for new content, while something new is built from the ground up, that would be able to not only accommodate current users regardless the edition of the rules they use, but be able to be forward compatible with any future large scale changes that would affect the 2024 rules users. I've seen references to spaghetti code from the original development, and rebuilding the entire thing just might be the solution for all of it.
I don' t think putting the site on hold is the answer; that means everyone that has paid for and wants the rules updates they've purchased loses out instead and isn't any better than what everyone's complaining about currently. I do agree that they should've anticipated this being a problem for some because you can never please everyone BUT they're following their policy in updating the site to the latest rules so, at least from my perspective, this was always expected.
It sucks that so many are hurt by this update and I think my proposal is a quick, easy solution even if it's only a temporary one. I have no control over WotC or the DDB team, though, I can only offer my suggestions to help the situation.
Maybe I need to clarify what I meant by put on hold. I meant put on hold the addition of new content that would generate breakages for people using the 2014 rules. That would only apply of course, if they were to rebuild the whole thing better, without internal code that could otherwise break things for everybody. Sorry about that.
Right... So if they held on pushing the update, everyone that wants the update would not get the update and would, thus, be the ones throwing angry fits on the forums right now.
And I see I need FURTHER clarification, though I think it's more a you thing and not a me thing, in the understanding department.
I NEVER said pause DDB as it currently operates, meaning so that nobody could use it in the interim. What I do know about software development is that new versions can be developed offline at the same time the original operational piece of software is running. Windows is a perfect example literally everybody should understand. Your PC doesn't just stop working because they are working on the next version. Development of a new version of DDB, one free of the spaghetti code I have seen mentioned many times here and elsewhere, COULD definitely happen, should Hasbro/WotC determine it is worth money. Not time, because we all know money is their driving motivation. As far as holding off pushing the 2024 rules update, that might not be a bad thing, if they decide to listen to their customers, and add those 100+ spells and the magic items that are planned to be left off, to Legacy status. but I hadn't considered that until you brought it up.
To be honest, they should have seen this coming. They should have taken the time to implement it so that nobody was angry. But they didn't.
And, yes, they should've seen it coming because, how silly of them to assume that everyone would just use the latest version of the rules on their official toolset. That's why I offered the DDB Classic option as a quick and easy means of giving EVERYONE what they want. :)
They should have seen it coming because all the messaging from WotC and DDB has been that 2014 rules are still valid alongside the 2024 rules, that DMs can mix both rulesets and that both sets of rules. The first we've heard about 2014 rules being removed from the character builder was the changlog. Even now there's nothing on the front page of the site saying that 2014 rules are going, anyone not on the forums will be getting a nice surprise on the 3rd.
Also, can I just say how frustrating it is for people (and your not the only one) to keep saying that we should have expected it as they're new rules, as if it's our fault and we're being unreasonable in our expectations. Last time content was superceded, with MMotM, the old content was kept and put under a legacy tag, exactly what we were led to expect here. They've even done it with some features here, which shows that the standard isn't to delete content. They just need to finish the job.
1. Nothing about the changes to D&D Beyond breaks the backwards compatibility from the update to the old rules. You can play your 2014 character alongside 2024 characters and in 2014 adventures all day long. However, the D&D Beyond functionality is obviously problematic and, as I've expressed to you multiple times, I'm 100 percent certain it is due to system and resource limitations, but that's neither here nor there. I get that people are angry and I understand why. What I don't get is why they automatically think the implementation is nefarious and not just emblematic of the platform.
2. I am sorry if it is frustrating to you but, yes, it has always been the policy of DDB to use the latest ruleset so I do believe this should've been expected, at least to some extent.
1) We emphatically cannot play 2014 characters using the toolkit we have paid for. We do not have the compatibility we were promised. Your assumption that the issues are technical limitations are assumptions not facts, DDB have so far refuse to give any explanation. *If* your assumptions are correct it doesn't excuse them telling us the complete opposite until 2 weeks before switchover. They should have been telling us months ago, and explaining why they are unable to provide the service we are paying for.
2) I'll say again, this policy you keep mentioning was not followed with Mordenkainens Monsters of the Multiverse or Lost Mines of Phandelver, the only cases im aware of where new versions of 5e content has been released. In both cases older content was put under a legacy tag. The only case I'm aware of are some minor *errata* (not what the new changes are), and one spell that was supposed completely broken.
If you have examples of this supposed policy being followed please post them, but as things stand it seems unreasonable for WotC to rely on a policy that few know about and WotC themselves haven't been following.
I hate that the only solution to maintain using 2014 5e is "Oh homebrew it". I have spent the last 2 hours copying spells into homebrew and I'm only 1/4th of the way there. It is going to suck running my game on the 4th because I will have had not time to asses the changes (i have a job).
We paid for this content to use on our character sheets. It's a product we all paid for from an online store with legal currency and received a receipt.
A store can't legally take a product back off a customer without a refund.
Why don't they just have a toggle on the character creator to switch between 2014 and 2024 rules? It's seem so much easier than a store stealing from its customers.
The one argument I can see for not having a 2014 and 2024 separated spell list and app functionality is that having twice the list means twice the server cost,. That and they really want to push people into buying 2024 books. Other than those two reasons, they shouldn't have lied to us and said everything was going to be backwards compatible.
True, but at the same time I think it would be cheaper than losing a bunch of customers. However, I'm not in a position to know that to be a fact. However, no one lied to you about backward compatibility. I assure you you can play your 2014 character in the 2024 update with no issues. It's the DDB functionality that's an issue, not the rules.
DDB is the official toolkit for D&D, if the rules say that I can play a 2014 character then the toolkit should support it.
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This is literally Y2K all over again. This is hilarious 😂
1. Nothing about the changes to D&D Beyond breaks the backwards compatibility from the update to the old rules. You can play your 2014 character alongside 2024 characters and in 2014 adventures all day long. However, the D&D Beyond functionality is obviously problematic and, as I've expressed to you multiple times, I'm 100 percent certain it is due to system and resource limitations, but that's neither here nor there. I get that people are angry and I understand why. What I don't get is why they automatically think the implementation is nefarious and not just emblematic of the platform.
2. I am sorry if it is frustrating to you but, yes, it has always been the policy of DDB to use the latest ruleset so I do believe this should've been expected, at least to some extent. Does that mean the messaging wasn't bad? No. But I wasn't surprised they announced updated rules would be implemented with the release of the books and since I live in Software Development land, perhaps I am less surprised by the fact that they would need to update their database entries to make those rules updates. And, yes, I agree that the proposals you and others have made with regards to "toggle" functionality are perfectly possible BUT my point from the get go is that they likely do not have the resources to fix the system to do that in a timely manner. This is exactly why I've made the suggestion to just create a DDB Classic multiple times now.
3. I hope they are able to find an amicable solution for everyone, whether it is my proposal or something else.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
I paid for the content as it stood… every purchase I’ve made is on the predication that I get to use the tools feature as a coherent toolset for the 2014 version of the game. (I am also a DM subscriber and I have the legendary bundle.)
I play the game because I enjoy how the game plays currently - if you’re attempting a “well actually the spells were free…” type argument - which apart from being incorrect, is also deliberately reductive, then sure knock yourself out but I’m not particularly interested in that kind of debate because it overlooks how people engage with the game and what’s drove sales in the first place. (For example I didn’t buy every other book to play with the 2024 spell set, I did it to play with the 2014 spell set - assuming I would have still have shelled out that money for the other books to use the 2024 spell set is simply not their assumption to make on my money.)
the advertising about the 2024 version has repeatedly been it’s not going to affect tables that don’t wish to change from the 2014 version… this is clearly now not the case and I don’t really understand how anyone wants to sit there arguing about if it’s okay or not for them not to put in the extra work and allow some form of toggle that lets people continue to use 2014 character sheets with the accompanying 2014 content - rather than forcing 2024 content into all character sheets for the convenience of WotC?
that doesn't change that they said it would be backwards compatible and they lied about it. It don't matter what reasons you can think about it. any company that is willing to freely lie to their consumers is a bad thing hard stop
That's unfair. They've literally crafted 5E on community feedback and continue to do so up to and including the 2024 update everyone is currently up in arms over.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
do you legitimately not understand the difference between being given something and having something you like stolen and replaced with something worthless to you? Sorry but being "given" something with 0 value is the same thing as being given nothing. This is nothing but a net loss. People paid for the 2014 content and that content is being stolen from them. This is nothing more than theft. Having looked at the 2024 rules it's honestly worse than being given nothing. It's more like having everything I paid for stolen and then promptly getting your shins broken too just for fun. It's worth less than nothing, it is a detriment.
The very simple guidance in the book basically boils down to "use your 2014 character in the 2024 rules, not the other way around."
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
The "2014 spells" were free in the in the Free Core Rules. So those spells being replaced by Spells for free is a moot point. Spells from XGTE, TCoE, and other source books that don't appear in the new PHB are expanded rules content that You're not losing.
You're 2nd point however is very valid. I can see how it is very frustrating for those who want to use the old spells. (Again I don't see why you'd want more than 4 or 5 of them, but sure). Most importantly is the lack of choice. DnD players hate losing agency. So that's fair.
I don't really understand why this comment, or your previous one for that matter, is even addressed to me. When have I ever talked about what WotC promised and did or did not deliver on? I do believe it is backwards compatible still, only perhaps not how you or I had envisioned that looking.
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True, but at the same time I think it would be cheaper than losing a bunch of customers. However, I'm not in a position to know that to be a fact. However, no one lied to you about backward compatibility. I assure you you can play your 2014 character in the 2024 update with no issues. It's the DDB functionality that's an issue, not the rules.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
The rules are 100% backwards compatible. At issue is that DDB has some functionality concerns. There was, however, no lie.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
I understand that some people prefer to have 2014 versions taken away and nothing given in return. I simply disagree with that position.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
👀🍿🍿🍿 this is great. I love a good debate. Respect to all of you BTW.
Now that you've mentioned it, you're right! They errata things all the time, and sucks to be you, you don't get to keep what you've bought previously... we shouldn't be surprised, given WotC is treating 5.5 as an errata for 5E. It still sucks, but I guess there was daily precedence for that.
DDB and the game are two distinct things.
It wouldn't be the server costs and storage, otherwise there'd be no homebrew system at all here. At the very least space is not the issue.
Weird question but lets say I own the 2014 PHB and I want to look up spells will the only place I will be able to see the 2024 will be on my character sheet if I do not own the license for the 2024 PHB
1) We emphatically cannot play 2014 characters using the toolkit we have paid for. We do not have the compatibility we were promised. Your assumption that the issues are technical limitations are assumptions not facts, DDB have so far refuse to give any explanation. *If* your assumptions are correct it doesn't excuse them telling us the complete opposite until 2 weeks before switchover. They should have been telling us months ago, and explaining why they are unable to provide the service we are paying for.
2) I'll say again, this policy you keep mentioning was not followed with Mordenkainens Monsters of the Multiverse or Lost Mines of Phandelver, the only cases im aware of where new versions of 5e content has been released. In both cases older content was put under a legacy tag. The only case I'm aware of are some minor *errata* (not what the new changes are), and one spell that was supposed completely broken.
If you have examples of this supposed policy being followed please post them, but as things stand it seems unreasonable for WotC to rely on a policy that few know about and WotC themselves haven't been following.
I hate that the only solution to maintain using 2014 5e is "Oh homebrew it". I have spent the last 2 hours copying spells into homebrew and I'm only 1/4th of the way there. It is going to suck running my game on the 4th because I will have had not time to asses the changes (i have a job).
We paid for this content to use on our character sheets. It's a product we all paid for from an online store with legal currency and received a receipt.
A store can't legally take a product back off a customer without a refund.
Why don't they just have a toggle on the character creator to switch between 2014 and 2024 rules? It's seem so much easier than a store stealing from its customers.
DDB is the official toolkit for D&D, if the rules say that I can play a 2014 character then the toolkit should support it.