Here's the limitation for my next GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN upcoming. Is this something you guys would embrace or dislike?
VARIANT RULES & HOUSERULES
- Determine Ability Scores: Determine ability score by rolling 3d6 seven times keeping the six best scores. (PHB 12)
- Ability Scores Maximum: A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches, rather than 20, thus the normal range of ability scores is 3-18 without magic. (PHB171)
- Choose Race: The dragonborn, drow and tiefling are not allowed. In humano-centric setting, humans combine standard and variant features. (PHB09)
- Choose Class: The sorcerer and warlock are not allowed.
- Alignment: No evil alignment can be selected. (PHB122)
- New Languages: New languages that can be selected are ancient baklunish, flan, old oeridian, ancient suloise. (PHB 123)
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
- Slow Natural Healing: Characters don't regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest. (DMG267)
- Healer’s Kit Dependency: A character can't spend any Hit Dice after finishing a rest until someone expends one use of a healer's kit to bandage and treat the character's wounds. (DMG266)
- Death: Every time a character drops to 0 hit points, he gains a level of exhaustion. Players roll their characters’ death saving throw in secret.
As a DM I have mixed views on this list personally, but each to their own and if your players are happy then great.
Rolling death saves in secret, is this a physical or online game, you as the DM at least should see the roll. In my in person games I have a dice tower set up which points behind my screen, this means a player can roll the dice by putting it into the tower, but has no idea what they have rolled. My players are allowed to discuss what hitpoints they have around the table.
Not sure why you limit the Ability score to 18, in many ways this means characters will be better all round (the +2 bonus will need to be spent on other things) meaning that a player with a low attribute will correct it as opposed to leaving it for that +5. Also as the game progresses monsters are balanced against a +5 so you will be restricted in some of the monsters you can pull out against the party at the level they are at.
No sorcerer or Warlock, intrigued by your narrative reasons (no issues I just like to have a story reason why those classes don't exist as options in game). Are there warlocks of Sorcerors in your world?
Starting wealth, are you restricting the equipment available or are you going to give them cash and make them buy it but amend the prices/availability?
Slow natural healing and healers kit, are fine personally I don't like using them it tends to slow the game down. But generally you seem to be pushing for a harder style of play, I am more about storytelling then gritty realism in the rules.
The rolling abilities, I have moved away from rolling for abilities, I prefer the Variant array 17, 15, 13, 12 10, 8 and your method means that statistically players will have a wider swing of stats between characters, so you might have players who just feel like their characters are far too weak.
It will be online with /whisper rolls so i will see deaths saves.
Many of the changes come from the fact that i played GREYHAWK during AD&D era and will bring back that aesthetic by limiting races and classes originally found, same for ability score max and generation method.
Starting wealth will also be very limited, probably background coins in copper rather than gold. It will make for a very modest start and acquiring better weapon, armor and gear will be part of early goar and rewards.
In the end i understand limiting PC options is not for everyone and that this game will be a bit more gtittier, low magic/fantasy/power but those that like that will buy into it and appreciate the challenge.
No restrictions from me. If a player has an interesting idea I work with them to embed it into the world. If I was planning a certain type of game tho, say a pirate theme or Gothic horror, I let the players know beforehand and ask them to create characters that fit the theme.
Here's the limitation for my next GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN upcoming. Is this something you guys would embrace or dislike?
VARIANT RULES & HOUSERULES
- Determine Ability Scores: Determine ability score by rolling 3d6 seven times keeping the six best scores. (PHB 12)
- Ability Scores Maximum: A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches, rather than 20, thus the normal range of ability scores is 3-18 without magic. (PHB171)
- Choose Race: The dragonborn, drow and tiefling are not allowed. In humano-centric setting, humans combine standard and variant features. (PHB09)
- Choose Class: The sorcerer and warlock are not allowed.
- Alignment: No evil alignment can be selected. (PHB122)
- New Languages: New languages that can be selected are ancient baklunish, flan, old oeridian, ancient suloise. (PHB 123)
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
- Slow Natural Healing: Characters don't regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest. (DMG267)
- Healer’s Kit Dependency: A character can't spend any Hit Dice after finishing a rest until someone expends one use of a healer's kit to bandage and treat the character's wounds. (DMG266)
- Death: Every time a character drops to 0 hit points, he gains a level of exhaustion. Players roll their characters’ death saving throw in secret.
As a DM I have mixed views on this list personally, but each to their own and if your players are happy then great.
Rolling death saves in secret, is this a physical or online game, you as the DM at least should see the roll. In my in person games I have a dice tower set up which points behind my screen, this means a player can roll the dice by putting it into the tower, but has no idea what they have rolled. My players are allowed to discuss what hitpoints they have around the table.
Not sure why you limit the Ability score to 18, in many ways this means characters will be better all round (the +2 bonus will need to be spent on other things) meaning that a player with a low attribute will correct it as opposed to leaving it for that +5. Also as the game progresses monsters are balanced against a +5 so you will be restricted in some of the monsters you can pull out against the party at the level they are at.
No sorcerer or Warlock, intrigued by your narrative reasons (no issues I just like to have a story reason why those classes don't exist as options in game). Are there warlocks of Sorcerors in your world?
Starting wealth, are you restricting the equipment available or are you going to give them cash and make them buy it but amend the prices/availability?
Slow natural healing and healers kit, are fine personally I don't like using them it tends to slow the game down. But generally you seem to be pushing for a harder style of play, I am more about storytelling then gritty realism in the rules.
The rolling abilities, I have moved away from rolling for abilities, I prefer the Variant array 17, 15, 13, 12 10, 8 and your method means that statistically players will have a wider swing of stats between characters, so you might have players who just feel like their characters are far too weak.
It will be online with /whisper rolls so i will see deaths saves.
Many of the changes come from the fact that i played GREYHAWK during AD&D era and will bring back that aesthetic by limiting races and classes originally found, same for ability score max and generation method.
Starting wealth will also be very limited, probably background coins in copper rather than gold. It will make for a very modest start and acquiring better weapon, armor and gear will be part of early goar and rewards.
In the end i understand limiting PC options is not for everyone and that this game will be a bit more gtittier, low magic/fantasy/power but those that like that will buy into it and appreciate the challenge.
I would say that trying to get back the AD&D theme by restricting the ability score and generation method might unbalance your game, there are reasons those rules have changed in 5th edition and usually it is a balance issue, but as long as your players are happy with the restrictions have fun :), also hiding the death saving roll fro other players to what extent will you allow communication between players as to the status? Will you describe what they see, or just let them guess? (I have done both and they have their pro's and cons)
Ability scores max of 18 instead of 20 without magic is only +1 modifier difference so it's not too unbalancing. Dice rolling method is definitly more swingy but it always was and it create more score variety than standard array or point buy
The goal of death save in secret is to keep the others in the unknown and prevent metagaming. When you don't know a downed characters number of success or failure, it changes game expectations.
I would say that trying to get back the AD&D theme by restricting the ability score and generation method might unbalance your game, there are reasons those rules have changed in 5th edition and usually it is a balance issue
There are multiple stat generation methods in the PHB, so if it were the case that the generation method could unbalance the game, they wouldn't have provided all those options. The book even points out that if you do point buy, you can have a range of values as different as 15/15/15/8/8/8 and 13/13/13/12/12/12. Considering that the "jack of all stats" method is one of their suggested outcomes of point buy, and that one would probably suspect a player setting a PC up like this is not looking to beeline one stat but likely wants to be good at several and thus won't have a 20 in any stat, it's hard to argue that saying 18 is a max allowable stat is going to somehow break the game. If not taking your prime stat out to 20 could break the game, WOTC would not have made it so a player could take feats every 4 levels as an option and *never* increase their stats above the starting level.
Might a group of characters with a max prime stat of 18 instead of 20, at level 18, have a slightly harder time vs. high CR monsters than those with 20 in their max stat? Maybe. Though it's no guarantee (after all, as someone else pointed out) max'ing the scores at 18 means more buffs to non-prime stats, thus more rounded characters. This means that they'll be better on their non-proficient saving throws (possibly) than an "optimized" characters and might survive a spell-cast or a dragon-breath they might not otherwise have lived through (by that 1 point on the roll). And even if that's not the case... arguing that someone who at high level has +10 to hit is somehow causing a "balance issue" because he "should have" +11 is just silly. The +10 person will save 91% as often, hit 91% as often, and so forth. Sheer dumb luck will have a far stronger impact on the difference between the optimized and limited characters than that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
Just want to point out that this is effectively a class penalty. Martial weapons and heavy armor proficiencies are key features of classes like Fighter, some Clerics, and Paladin and their stat arrays depend on this, and the early game is when survival is most precarious. Medium and heavy armor both have progressively better options - acquiring better versions as a part of loot is already baked into the game. It's not outlandish that a Paladin in Grayhawk has his father's rusty hauberk or something.
I guess where I tend to draw the line is restrictions that break some of the underlying assumptions of the game, especially if it results in characters being unevenly impacted. It just feels like a punishment. Be a rogue or wizard and face no issues, but if you want to be a fighter I'm taking your toys away. I dunno. If you really want an AD&D feel... well I mean AD&D still exists.
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
Just want to point out that this is effectively a class penalty. Martial weapons and heavy armor proficiencies are key features of classes like Fighter, some Clerics, and Paladin and their stat arrays depend on this, and the early game is when survival is most precarious. Medium and heavy armor both have progressively better options - acquiring better versions as a part of loot is already baked into the game. It's not outlandish that a Paladin in Grayhawk has his father's rusty hauberk or something.
I guess where I tend to draw the line is restrictions that break some of the underlying assumptions of the game, especially if it results in characters being unevenly impacted. It just feels like a punishment. Be a rogue or wizard and face no issues, but if you want to be a fighter I'm taking your toys away. I dunno. If you really want an AD&D feel... well I mean AD&D still exists.
In any D&D editions a DM could decide on starting gear availability. If i want 5E and i want grittier low fantasy, can i have it or i must use AD&D? There's a reason why i choose 5E and it's because of the modern mechanic gameplay. Down the road PCs will get better arms and armors, magic items etc... Making allusion if i want AD&D feel it still exist (that i should use it) is unecessary.
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
Just want to point out that this is effectively a class penalty. Martial weapons and heavy armor proficiencies are key features of classes like Fighter, some Clerics, and Paladin and their stat arrays depend on this, and the early game is when survival is most precarious. Medium and heavy armor both have progressively better options - acquiring better versions as a part of loot is already baked into the game. It's not outlandish that a Paladin in Grayhawk has his father's rusty hauberk or something.
I guess where I tend to draw the line is restrictions that break some of the underlying assumptions of the game, especially if it results in characters being unevenly impacted. It just feels like a punishment. Be a rogue or wizard and face no issues, but if you want to be a fighter I'm taking your toys away. I dunno. If you really want an AD&D feel... well I mean AD&D still exists.
In any D&D editions a DM could decide on starting gear availability. If i want 5E and i want grittier low fantasy, can i have it or i must use AD&D? There's a reason why i choose 5E and it's because of the modern mechanic gameplay. Down the road PCs will get better arms and armors, magic items etc... Making allusion if i want AD&D feel it still exist (that i should use it) is unecessary.
Just wondering how you plan on doing it? Seems it will favor certain classes like barbarians and perhaps wizards depending on how you run their whole copying spells thing + spellbook. Or, if you make starting gold into copper like I think you said before, won't that make everyone start with like half a dagger if lucky?
The PC will get light armor, simple weapons, background equipment and a few copper. Yes some classes that are light armor / simple weapon users may get an advantage if the group has such class among them and eventually the others will catch up. Fighters in studded leather armor and spear will eventually upgrade fast ☺ Finding better gear will be part of the fun early on and even mundane equipment will matter, where it normally doesn't except for more expensive armors when PCs have access to full equipment list.
Let me put it this way: If a character comes up with a character concept that doesn't quite fit the theme of the campaign setting, I'd be reluctant to let them use the character. HOWEVER, if they can role-play it well and give it a reasonable backstory that fits with the lore of the setting, then I might allow it.
For example, there aren't any Warforged or Artificers in the Sword Coast, but I'd allow a player to play one provided they gave a backstory that ties in to the Sword Coast lore well.
Let me put it this way: If a character comes up with a character concept that doesn't quite fit the theme of the campaign setting, I'd be reluctant to let them use the character. HOWEVER, if they can role-play it well and give it a reasonable backstory that fits with the lore of the setting, then I might allow it.
For example, there aren't any Warforged or Artificers in the Sword Coast, but I'd allow a player to play one provided they gave a backstory that ties in to the Sword Coast lore well.
Actually check out Lantan... I'd argue that they qualify as artificers, using technology, gunpowder, smoke bombs, walls of force and flying stuff
But your point is good. Also if you want to go there it's all part of the multiverse so someone could come from another plane.
Here's the limitation for my next GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN upcoming. Is this something you guys would embrace or dislike?
VARIANT RULES & HOUSERULES
- Determine Ability Scores: Determine ability score by rolling 3d6 seven times keeping the six best scores. (PHB 12)
- Ability Scores Maximum: A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches, rather than 20, thus the normal range of ability scores is 3-18 without magic. (PHB171)
- Choose Race: The dragonborn, drow and tiefling are not allowed. In humano-centric setting, humans combine standard and variant features. (PHB09)
- Choose Class: The sorcerer and warlock are not allowed.
- Alignment: No evil alignment can be selected. (PHB122)
- New Languages: New languages that can be selected are ancient baklunish, flan, old oeridian, ancient suloise. (PHB 123)
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
- Slow Natural Healing: Characters don't regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest. (DMG267)
- Healer’s Kit Dependency: A character can't spend any Hit Dice after finishing a rest until someone expends one use of a healer's kit to bandage and treat the character's wounds. (DMG266)
- Death: Every time a character drops to 0 hit points, he gains a level of exhaustion. Players roll their characters’ death saving throw in secret.
Looks like you want a return to the "good ol days" of D&D. That's cool - you do you. I would 100% never play in this game though. If you are interested (and you do NOT have to be) here are my reasons;
Determine Ability Scores: I HATE this. This is the WORST. Why start a game where each player is a different power level? Where is the fun in that? All it means is that some players feel like crap because their characters are under powered compared to the others. Some people say they like rolling for ability scores because IF you roll high it is fun. So what? It is one roll before the game even begins that can affect players enjoyment for months, possibly years to come. Ditch it. Point buy or standard array only for my games.
Ability Scores Maximum: Sure if you like? I cant see this making any difference but if that is what you want to do then cool.
Race, class, alignment, language restrictions - Your game your call. I personally would not say a 'hard no' to these options, rather I would say to my players that I don't see these options in the world for <insert reasons>, if you want to play one then lets talk to see if we can reach a compromise. For example someone may want to play a dragonborn because the love the monstrous PC element and that person could be just as happy with something else monstrous that fits your vision, like a half-orc or even a reborn. Or you could find their backstory so compelling that you alter your world to accommodate the character, resulting in a richer world.
Starting Wealth By Class: I get what you are trying to do here, just be aware that your low level front line PCs are going to be extremely squishy. You are going to have a situation where the fighter has to hide behind the rogue to stay alive. Fine if that is the sort of thing you are ok with. You could mitigate this by taking default starting equipment by class - this usually gives effective but not optimal armor for the weight class. Rogues get leather, fighters get chainmail etc... They are not handicapped but there is still room to improve.
Slow Natural Healing, Healer’s Kit Dependency, Death: this is the second reason I would not play this game. I find restricting a players resources for long periods of time boring and unfun. Especially as a handful of bad rolls can result in a crippled character that cant do anything for multiple sessions. But this is only *my* preference. If you and your players enjoy this then 100% give it a go.
One way I limit players in character creation is oddly in their backstory.
If someone wants to play a 'lone wolf' I say sure but it is *their* responsibility to come up with reasons for why the character is hanging around the party. It is no one else's responsibility to convince them to stay or come with them. The party is totally allowed to leave without them.
I do not allow PvP within the party. No having fun at the expense of other players (no rogues stealing from other players etc...) If a player wants to try it, I let them know that they can totally try it and if they are kicked out of the party then they need to roll a new character. It is not the other players jobs to put up with their selfish behavior.
This is the most common one - I work with players to restrict their concept to the starting level of the character. For example if we are starting at level 1 and a player comes in with a concept of "they are the captain of the army, decorated veteran of may wars", I'll stop them and say "this is great, however you are describing the character at level 10. What did they look like when they were at level 1? Let's make that character"
I would say that trying to get back the AD&D theme by restricting the ability score and generation method might unbalance your game, there are reasons those rules have changed in 5th edition and usually it is a balance issue
There are multiple stat generation methods in the PHB, so if it were the case that the generation method could unbalance the game, they wouldn't have provided all those options.
The issue is not "unbalance the game"; it is "unbalance the players."
Would you play in a game where your character's highest stat was a 12 and everyone else's lowest was a 12? Where the non-proficient character across the table had a better chance of opening a lock than your proficient character? Personally, I wouldn't. *
This was much less an issue in previous versions, when bonus for ability scores didn't start until higher values (so the difference between 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 strength was nothing). In 5E where every 2 levels is a +1, it can be a big issue (depending on the players, of course).
_____ * I've played in such a game and it sucked. Especially since the GM did all our character creation in secret and I only found out about the skill discrepancy when the player of the grunt marine noted in passing that his character had a better piloting skill than my naval academy graduate veteran starship pilot and maybe he should be flying the ship because of all the crit failures I was having. It turned out that if you added together all my character's skill points, the total was less than his character's second highest skill.
The issue is not "unbalance the game"; it is "unbalance the players."
Would you play in a game where your character's highest stat was a 12 and everyone else's lowest was a 12?
I would start by saying, and I know this goes against all current-day thinking about RPGs, but a roleplaying game is not a competition. What matters isn't how the other PCs do compared to mine, but how the party can do compared to the monsters and other obstacles we face.
Additionally, although I recognize you are just using extreme numbers to prove a point, surely you recognize that 3d6 x 7 drop lowest cannot result in the numbers you provided. It is simply not possible, without cheating or weighted dice that every player but one could roll 6 out of 7 rolls on 3D6 all at or above a 12 (and if your fellow players are cheating and using weighted dice, you have much bigger problems than "game balance"). Could it happen to one player? Maybe. But the whole rest of the party? No.
Furthermore, in any reasonable group, at any reasonable table, if the random rolls ended up that skewed, with the whole party 12+ in every stat and one person below 12 on every stat, surely the players and the DM would recognize that this makes things very extreme, and would do some re-rolling. (Also, the DM would probably suspect some pretty rampant cheating, which again, is a separate issue.)
The extreme example of unrealistic numbers aside, historically in RPGs it really has not been a problem that some characters may be "stronger" than others. This is not, or should not be, an MMORPG raid event in which people put a DPS meter on your and if your character doesn't "pull his weight" you get /kicked ruthlessly from the raid team. In a D&D group, if the characters are a little unequal to each other to start, it should not be an issue.
And again, although the 3d6 x 7 drop 1 method described is not the 4d6-drop-lowest method in the book 4d6-drop-lowest is a valid option listed in the PHB and many tables still use it, and it can still result in variability in the party -- and apparently the D&D designers saw no issue with it. It is still an option. And many tables use it. So clearly not everyone wants "all the characters to start out exactly the same" and when they don't, the game is not "unbalanced."
Where the non-proficient character across the table had a better chance of opening a lock than your proficient character?
Already possible depending on spells , feats, and other such things. Also easily fixable using Matt Coleville's rule that says you aren't allowed to roll unless you are proficient.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Here's the limitation for my next GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN upcoming. Is this something you guys would embrace or dislike?
VARIANT RULES & HOUSERULES
- Determine Ability Scores: Determine ability score by rolling 3d6 seven times keeping the six best scores. (PHB 12)
- Ability Scores Maximum: A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches, rather than 20, thus the normal range of ability scores is 3-18 without magic. (PHB171)
- Choose Race: The dragonborn, drow and tiefling are not allowed. In humano-centric setting, humans combine standard and variant features. (PHB09)
- Choose Class: The sorcerer and warlock are not allowed.
- Alignment: No evil alignment can be selected. (PHB122)
- New Languages: New languages that can be selected are ancient baklunish, flan, old oeridian, ancient suloise. (PHB 123)
- Starting Wealth By Class: Due to low income and supply after recent war, only some light armor, simple weapon and class/background equipment are available. (PHB 125-143)
- Slow Natural Healing: Characters don't regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest. (DMG267)
- Healer’s Kit Dependency: A character can't spend any Hit Dice after finishing a rest until someone expends one use of a healer's kit to bandage and treat the character's wounds. (DMG266)
- Death: Every time a character drops to 0 hit points, he gains a level of exhaustion. Players roll their characters’ death saving throw in secret.
Looks like you want a return to the "good ol days" of D&D. That's cool - you do you. I would 100% never play in this game though. If you are interested (and you do NOT have to be) here are my reasons;
Determine Ability Scores: I HATE this. This is the WORST. Why start a game where each player is a different power level? Where is the fun in that? All it means is that some players feel like crap because their characters are under powered compared to the others. Some people say they like rolling for ability scores because IF you roll high it is fun. So what? It is one roll before the game even begins that can affect players enjoyment for months, possibly years to come. Ditch it. Point buy or standard array only for my games.
Ability Scores Maximum: Sure if you like? I cant see this making any difference but if that is what you want to do then cool.
Race, class, alignment, language restrictions - Your game your call. I personally would not say a 'hard no' to these options, rather I would say to my players that I don't see these options in the world for <insert reasons>, if you want to play one then lets talk to see if we can reach a compromise. For example someone may want to play a dragonborn because the love the monstrous PC element and that person could be just as happy with something else monstrous that fits your vision, like a half-orc or even a reborn. Or you could find their backstory so compelling that you alter your world to accommodate the character, resulting in a richer world.
Starting Wealth By Class: I get what you are trying to do here, just be aware that your low level front line PCs are going to be extremely squishy. You are going to have a situation where the fighter has to hide behind the rogue to stay alive. Fine if that is the sort of thing you are ok with. You could mitigate this by taking default starting equipment by class - this usually gives effective but not optimal armor for the weight class. Rogues get leather, fighters get chainmail etc... They are not handicapped but there is still room to improve.
Slow Natural Healing, Healer’s Kit Dependency, Death: this is the second reason I would not play this game. I find restricting a players resources for long periods of time boring and unfun. Especially as a handful of bad rolls can result in a crippled character that cant do anything for multiple sessions. But this is only *my* preference. If you and your players enjoy this then 100% give it a go.
I agree with the stat gen method (I am in the camp that rolling is never a good idea as it creates too much swing between characters)
I also agree with the equipment....imagine being a STR fighter and not even getting heavy armor to start....your Dex might be 10 and your AC will be at best 12 which is terrible.
I would allow them to get standard starting armor but keep simple weapons.
Its exactly part of the goal to start modest yes some will be less effective. Being AC 12 (or 14 with a shield) is not the end of the world and when said fighter get better armor it will be a reward!
The original rule Starting Wealth By Class name is an error from a previous game spec. Armor, Weapon and gear will be class based, with limitation by light armor / simple weapon. The goal is modest start right after a war due to low economy and supply in the village region they begin.
Rolling ability score is not for everyone, nor are limitations. These options are still part of the game though. I'd rather get players that embrace limitations and take it as a challenge, than players wining that they cant start with AC 16 and decent gear. ☺
Its exactly part of the goal to start modest yes some will be less effective. Being AC 12 (or 14 with a shield) is not the end of the world and when said fighter get better armor it will be a reward!
The original rule Starting Wealth By Class name is an error from a previous game spec. Armor, Weapon and gear will be class based, with limitation by light armor / simple weapon. The goal is modest start right after a war due to low economy and supply in the village region they begin.
Rolling ability score is not for everyone, nor are limitations. These options are still part of the game though. I'd rather get players that embrace limitations and take it as a challenge, than players wining that they cant start with AC 16 and decent gear. ☺
just be aware you might be getting a whole bunch of dex fighters instead, dex is already better anyways so that's not really worse for them though ;)
Its exactly part of the goal to start modest yes some will be less effective. Being AC 12 (or 14 with a shield) is not the end of the world and when said fighter get better armor it will be a reward!
The original rule Starting Wealth By Class name is an error from a previous game spec. Armor, Weapon and gear will be class based, with limitation by light armor / simple weapon. The goal is modest start right after a war due to low economy and supply in the village region they begin.
Rolling ability score is not for everyone, nor are limitations. These options are still part of the game though. I'd rather get players that embrace limitations and take it as a challenge, than players wining that they cant start with AC 16 and decent gear. ☺
just be aware you might be getting a whole bunch of dex fighters instead, dex is already better anyways so that's not really worse for them though ;)
This pretty much....
Dex fighters will be MUCH better off (Starting at 17 AC with shield vs 14 AC shielded STR fighter). +3 AC is a massive difference in 5e thanks to bounded accuracy.
Pair this with random rolls it could get fairly ugly. If people are OK with it then its fine I suppose but it will for sure encourage a certain playstyle/builds
Chain would be a good idea for STR fighters as that was reasonably made even in lower skill areas. It didn't take much to manufacture.
Its exactly part of the goal to start modest yes some will be less effective. Being AC 12 (or 14 with a shield) is not the end of the world and when said fighter get better armor it will be a reward!
The original rule Starting Wealth By Class name is an error from a previous game spec. Armor, Weapon and gear will be class based, with limitation by light armor / simple weapon. The goal is modest start right after a war due to low economy and supply in the village region they begin.
Rolling ability score is not for everyone, nor are limitations. These options are still part of the game though. I'd rather get players that embrace limitations and take it as a challenge, than players wining that they cant start with AC 16 and decent gear. ☺
just be aware you might be getting a whole bunch of dex fighters instead, dex is already better anyways so that's not really worse for them though ;)
If some players want to create DEX based fighter because campaign start with low supply as a temporary limitation its all their choice. Metagaming is always a choice. Once things get back to normal within a few sessions, they will not be playing the original build they wanted because they metagamed to get around the limitations. The impact will be more significant on the long term IMHO.
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It will be online with /whisper rolls so i will see deaths saves.
Many of the changes come from the fact that i played GREYHAWK during AD&D era and will bring back that aesthetic by limiting races and classes originally found, same for ability score max and generation method.
Starting wealth will also be very limited, probably background coins in copper rather than gold. It will make for a very modest start and acquiring better weapon, armor and gear will be part of early goar and rewards.
In the end i understand limiting PC options is not for everyone and that this game will be a bit more gtittier, low magic/fantasy/power but those that like that will buy into it and appreciate the challenge.
No restrictions from me. If a player has an interesting idea I work with them to embed it into the world. If I was planning a certain type of game tho, say a pirate theme or Gothic horror, I let the players know beforehand and ask them to create characters that fit the theme.
I would say that trying to get back the AD&D theme by restricting the ability score and generation method might unbalance your game, there are reasons those rules have changed in 5th edition and usually it is a balance issue, but as long as your players are happy with the restrictions have fun :), also hiding the death saving roll fro other players to what extent will you allow communication between players as to the status? Will you describe what they see, or just let them guess? (I have done both and they have their pro's and cons)
Ability scores max of 18 instead of 20 without magic is only +1 modifier difference so it's not too unbalancing. Dice rolling method is definitly more swingy but it always was and it create more score variety than standard array or point buy
The goal of death save in secret is to keep the others in the unknown and prevent metagaming. When you don't know a downed characters number of success or failure, it changes game expectations.
There are multiple stat generation methods in the PHB, so if it were the case that the generation method could unbalance the game, they wouldn't have provided all those options. The book even points out that if you do point buy, you can have a range of values as different as 15/15/15/8/8/8 and 13/13/13/12/12/12. Considering that the "jack of all stats" method is one of their suggested outcomes of point buy, and that one would probably suspect a player setting a PC up like this is not looking to beeline one stat but likely wants to be good at several and thus won't have a 20 in any stat, it's hard to argue that saying 18 is a max allowable stat is going to somehow break the game. If not taking your prime stat out to 20 could break the game, WOTC would not have made it so a player could take feats every 4 levels as an option and *never* increase their stats above the starting level.
Might a group of characters with a max prime stat of 18 instead of 20, at level 18, have a slightly harder time vs. high CR monsters than those with 20 in their max stat? Maybe. Though it's no guarantee (after all, as someone else pointed out) max'ing the scores at 18 means more buffs to non-prime stats, thus more rounded characters. This means that they'll be better on their non-proficient saving throws (possibly) than an "optimized" characters and might survive a spell-cast or a dragon-breath they might not otherwise have lived through (by that 1 point on the roll). And even if that's not the case... arguing that someone who at high level has +10 to hit is somehow causing a "balance issue" because he "should have" +11 is just silly. The +10 person will save 91% as often, hit 91% as often, and so forth. Sheer dumb luck will have a far stronger impact on the difference between the optimized and limited characters than that.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Just want to point out that this is effectively a class penalty. Martial weapons and heavy armor proficiencies are key features of classes like Fighter, some Clerics, and Paladin and their stat arrays depend on this, and the early game is when survival is most precarious. Medium and heavy armor both have progressively better options - acquiring better versions as a part of loot is already baked into the game. It's not outlandish that a Paladin in Grayhawk has his father's rusty hauberk or something.
I guess where I tend to draw the line is restrictions that break some of the underlying assumptions of the game, especially if it results in characters being unevenly impacted. It just feels like a punishment. Be a rogue or wizard and face no issues, but if you want to be a fighter I'm taking your toys away. I dunno. If you really want an AD&D feel... well I mean AD&D still exists.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
In any D&D editions a DM could decide on starting gear availability. If i want 5E and i want grittier low fantasy, can i have it or i must use AD&D? There's a reason why i choose 5E and it's because of the modern mechanic gameplay. Down the road PCs will get better arms and armors, magic items etc... Making allusion if i want AD&D feel it still exist (that i should use it) is unecessary.
Just wondering how you plan on doing it? Seems it will favor certain classes like barbarians and perhaps wizards depending on how you run their whole copying spells thing + spellbook. Or, if you make starting gold into copper like I think you said before, won't that make everyone start with like half a dagger if lucky?
The PC will get light armor, simple weapons, background equipment and a few copper. Yes some classes that are light armor / simple weapon users may get an advantage if the group has such class among them and eventually the others will catch up. Fighters in studded leather armor and spear will eventually upgrade fast ☺ Finding better gear will be part of the fun early on and even mundane equipment will matter, where it normally doesn't except for more expensive armors when PCs have access to full equipment list.
Let me put it this way: If a character comes up with a character concept that doesn't quite fit the theme of the campaign setting, I'd be reluctant to let them use the character. HOWEVER, if they can role-play it well and give it a reasonable backstory that fits with the lore of the setting, then I might allow it.
For example, there aren't any Warforged or Artificers in the Sword Coast, but I'd allow a player to play one provided they gave a backstory that ties in to the Sword Coast lore well.
Actually check out Lantan... I'd argue that they qualify as artificers, using technology, gunpowder, smoke bombs, walls of force and flying stuff
But your point is good. Also if you want to go there it's all part of the multiverse so someone could come from another plane.
Looks like you want a return to the "good ol days" of D&D. That's cool - you do you. I would 100% never play in this game though. If you are interested (and you do NOT have to be) here are my reasons;
Determine Ability Scores: I HATE this. This is the WORST. Why start a game where each player is a different power level? Where is the fun in that? All it means is that some players feel like crap because their characters are under powered compared to the others. Some people say they like rolling for ability scores because IF you roll high it is fun. So what? It is one roll before the game even begins that can affect players enjoyment for months, possibly years to come. Ditch it. Point buy or standard array only for my games.
Ability Scores Maximum: Sure if you like? I cant see this making any difference but if that is what you want to do then cool.
Race, class, alignment, language restrictions - Your game your call. I personally would not say a 'hard no' to these options, rather I would say to my players that I don't see these options in the world for <insert reasons>, if you want to play one then lets talk to see if we can reach a compromise. For example someone may want to play a dragonborn because the love the monstrous PC element and that person could be just as happy with something else monstrous that fits your vision, like a half-orc or even a reborn. Or you could find their backstory so compelling that you alter your world to accommodate the character, resulting in a richer world.
Starting Wealth By Class: I get what you are trying to do here, just be aware that your low level front line PCs are going to be extremely squishy. You are going to have a situation where the fighter has to hide behind the rogue to stay alive. Fine if that is the sort of thing you are ok with. You could mitigate this by taking default starting equipment by class - this usually gives effective but not optimal armor for the weight class. Rogues get leather, fighters get chainmail etc... They are not handicapped but there is still room to improve.
Slow Natural Healing, Healer’s Kit Dependency, Death: this is the second reason I would not play this game. I find restricting a players resources for long periods of time boring and unfun. Especially as a handful of bad rolls can result in a crippled character that cant do anything for multiple sessions. But this is only *my* preference. If you and your players enjoy this then 100% give it a go.
One way I limit players in character creation is oddly in their backstory.
If someone wants to play a 'lone wolf' I say sure but it is *their* responsibility to come up with reasons for why the character is hanging around the party. It is no one else's responsibility to convince them to stay or come with them. The party is totally allowed to leave without them.
I do not allow PvP within the party. No having fun at the expense of other players (no rogues stealing from other players etc...) If a player wants to try it, I let them know that they can totally try it and if they are kicked out of the party then they need to roll a new character. It is not the other players jobs to put up with their selfish behavior.
This is the most common one - I work with players to restrict their concept to the starting level of the character. For example if we are starting at level 1 and a player comes in with a concept of "they are the captain of the army, decorated veteran of may wars", I'll stop them and say "this is great, however you are describing the character at level 10. What did they look like when they were at level 1? Let's make that character"
The issue is not "unbalance the game"; it is "unbalance the players."
Would you play in a game where your character's highest stat was a 12 and everyone else's lowest was a 12? Where the non-proficient character across the table had a better chance of opening a lock than your proficient character? Personally, I wouldn't. *
This was much less an issue in previous versions, when bonus for ability scores didn't start until higher values (so the difference between 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 strength was nothing). In 5E where every 2 levels is a +1, it can be a big issue (depending on the players, of course).
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* I've played in such a game and it sucked. Especially since the GM did all our character creation in secret and I only found out about the skill discrepancy when the player of the grunt marine noted in passing that his character had a better piloting skill than my naval academy graduate veteran starship pilot and maybe he should be flying the ship because of all the crit failures I was having. It turned out that if you added together all my character's skill points, the total was less than his character's second highest skill.
I would start by saying, and I know this goes against all current-day thinking about RPGs, but a roleplaying game is not a competition. What matters isn't how the other PCs do compared to mine, but how the party can do compared to the monsters and other obstacles we face.
Additionally, although I recognize you are just using extreme numbers to prove a point, surely you recognize that 3d6 x 7 drop lowest cannot result in the numbers you provided. It is simply not possible, without cheating or weighted dice that every player but one could roll 6 out of 7 rolls on 3D6 all at or above a 12 (and if your fellow players are cheating and using weighted dice, you have much bigger problems than "game balance"). Could it happen to one player? Maybe. But the whole rest of the party? No.
Furthermore, in any reasonable group, at any reasonable table, if the random rolls ended up that skewed, with the whole party 12+ in every stat and one person below 12 on every stat, surely the players and the DM would recognize that this makes things very extreme, and would do some re-rolling. (Also, the DM would probably suspect some pretty rampant cheating, which again, is a separate issue.)
The extreme example of unrealistic numbers aside, historically in RPGs it really has not been a problem that some characters may be "stronger" than others. This is not, or should not be, an MMORPG raid event in which people put a DPS meter on your and if your character doesn't "pull his weight" you get /kicked ruthlessly from the raid team. In a D&D group, if the characters are a little unequal to each other to start, it should not be an issue.
And again, although the 3d6 x 7 drop 1 method described is not the 4d6-drop-lowest method in the book 4d6-drop-lowest is a valid option listed in the PHB and many tables still use it, and it can still result in variability in the party -- and apparently the D&D designers saw no issue with it. It is still an option. And many tables use it. So clearly not everyone wants "all the characters to start out exactly the same" and when they don't, the game is not "unbalanced."
Already possible depending on spells , feats, and other such things. Also easily fixable using Matt Coleville's rule that says you aren't allowed to roll unless you are proficient.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree with the stat gen method (I am in the camp that rolling is never a good idea as it creates too much swing between characters)
I also agree with the equipment....imagine being a STR fighter and not even getting heavy armor to start....your Dex might be 10 and your AC will be at best 12 which is terrible.
I would allow them to get standard starting armor but keep simple weapons.
Other than that this seems fine to me.
Its exactly part of the goal to start modest yes some will be less effective. Being AC 12 (or 14 with a shield) is not the end of the world and when said fighter get better armor it will be a reward!
The original rule Starting Wealth By Class name is an error from a previous game spec. Armor, Weapon and gear will be class based, with limitation by light armor / simple weapon. The goal is modest start right after a war due to low economy and supply in the village region they begin.
Rolling ability score is not for everyone, nor are limitations. These options are still part of the game though. I'd rather get players that embrace limitations and take it as a challenge, than players wining that they cant start with AC 16 and decent gear. ☺
just be aware you might be getting a whole bunch of dex fighters instead, dex is already better anyways so that's not really worse for them though ;)
This pretty much....
Dex fighters will be MUCH better off (Starting at 17 AC with shield vs 14 AC shielded STR fighter). +3 AC is a massive difference in 5e thanks to bounded accuracy.
Pair this with random rolls it could get fairly ugly. If people are OK with it then its fine I suppose but it will for sure encourage a certain playstyle/builds
Chain would be a good idea for STR fighters as that was reasonably made even in lower skill areas. It didn't take much to manufacture.
If some players want to create DEX based fighter because campaign start with low supply as a temporary limitation its all their choice. Metagaming is always a choice. Once things get back to normal within a few sessions, they will not be playing the original build they wanted because they metagamed to get around the limitations. The impact will be more significant on the long term IMHO.