Hey folks, How do you determine what equipment and magic items party members can have when starting at higher levels. I've had a flick and cant really see any guidelines on how many magic items etc each player should roughly have depending on their level, but thematically they should have more than just their starting equipment....but how much more.
Say you wanted to start a campaign at level 8 for example. i dont want my players running round with a bunch of magic stuff that makes encounters seem pathetic and i dont really think its thematic as for me i find magic items can be too powerful when you have 5 odd players all running round with a rare item each XD
This information is on an incredibly hard to find table in the DMG (every time I need it, I google it - none of the terms I intuitively look for in the index help locate it), on page 38.
Said table infamously does not match, not even a little, the guidelines elsewhere in the DMG for rewarding players as they level - instead, using the p38 table leaves the party substantially poorer than had they leveled up manually. There are homebrew tables you may be able to find addressing this issue.
This information is on an incredibly hard to find table in the DMG (every time I need it, I google it - none of the terms I intuitively look for in the index help locate it), on page 38.
Said table infamously does not match, not even a little, the guidelines elsewhere in the DMG for rewarding players as they level - instead, using the p38 table leaves the party substantially poorer than had they leveled up manually. There are homebrew tables you may be able to find addressing this issue.
Thanks, i've marked it up in my DMG! you're right though, its a good base, but they would seem worse off than if theyd been adventuring from level 1
This information is on an incredibly hard to find table in the DMG (every time I need it, I google it - none of the terms I intuitively look for in the index help locate it), on page 38.
Said table infamously does not match, not even a little, the guidelines elsewhere in the DMG for rewarding players as they level - instead, using the p38 table leaves the party substantially poorer than had they leveled up manually. There are homebrew tables you may be able to find addressing this issue.
This is actually the first time I've run into the expectation that it should match. Being generally unnecessary to reach basic performance requirements of a given level (aside maybe from needing magical weapon damage after level 6 or so) magic items are largely about character growth and progress. A player starting at level 8 doesn't need extra items to keep the character feeling new and interesting, as opposed to someone who has played that character for months.
I think it's also petty common practice that when someone rolls up a new character in an ongoing campaign, whether due to death or story circumstances or even just boredom with their old character, the new character is expected to be at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the characters who have been going from the start. The easiest and IMO fairest way to apply this disadvantage is to simply reduce the amount of loot they have. At least that's the way we've always done it.
One balancing factor is that if the players get to choose their magic items, then they will be able to optimize their loadout, rather than just equipping whatever they find along the road. Unless a DM is deliberately fulfilling wishlists, the players are likely to end up with redundant or otherwise useless items that they'd have ended up selling anyway.
You can interpret the discrepancy as the players "trading down" their items for things they actually want.
This is actually the first time I've run into the expectation that it should match. Being generally unnecessary to reach basic performance requirements of a given level (aside maybe from needing magical weapon damage after level 6 or so) magic items are largely about character growth and progress. A player starting at level 8 doesn't need extra items to keep the character feeling new and interesting, as opposed to someone who has played that character for months.
I think it's also petty common practice that when someone rolls up a new character in an ongoing campaign, whether due to death or story circumstances or even just boredom with their old character, the new character is expected to be at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the characters who have been going from the start. The easiest and IMO fairest way to apply this disadvantage is to simply reduce the amount of loot they have. At least that's the way we've always done it.
Magic items don't intrinsically have anything to do with it, and you brought them up, not me - there are many ways to define "poorer". The p38 guidelines, for example, mean that a level 10 character still hasn't managed to get their hands on plate armor. IIRC, if PCs level manually, someone should be able to afford plate armor in a shop by level 6. That can mean a world of difference to a build planning on wearing heavy armor. That's just one example - another expensive thing an adventuring party might want is their own ship, where, again, without bringing magic items into play at all, figuring out by what level the party can credibly afford one will have different answers if you ask page 38 of the DMG vs if you combine things like loot tables and the guidelines for adventuring and so on.
Yeah for some reason Wizards just wanted to piss all of us DMs off by making it as hard to find, or rather as easy to overlook, as possible it seems...
From my reading of page 37 on the DMG, I would suggest that:
If starting at Level 4 or higher, each person should have a potion or a scroll. Wizards could alternatively know an extra spell or two instead of having a scroll. At least one ritual - they do not need to have prepared them.
By level 10, each person should have a rare magic item or a couple of uncommon ones. This is on top of three uses of consumabes (wizard should be able to trade one consumable for a spell known, or all three consumables for four known spells.)
By level 16, each should two rare items or three uncommon ones. At least one should be attuned, most likely two. Throw in four uses of consumables, or for a wizard trade away any # of consumable each for two bonus spells known (max off 8)
At level 20, they should start the game with three attuned items - a legendary and two rares (or possibly two very rares and a rare), plus six uses of consumables (wizards trading one consumable for two extra spells known)
Everyone else should have done things like cast Find Familiar, artificers make items, etc. etc.
Yeah for some reason Wizards just wanted to piss all of us DMs off by making it as hard to find, or rather as easy to overlook, as possible it seems...
I typically start with the “High Magic” column on that👆table, but then add the following to it on top of what’s listed on the table, all of which comes from the “Tiers of Play” section of the DMG:
Levels 1-4: Local Heroes
“The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls) and a very few uncommon permanent items. Their magic can have a big impact in a single encounter, but it doesn’t change the course of an adventure.”
Levels 5-10: Heroes of the Realm
“They start acquiring more permanent magic items (uncommon and rare ones) as well, which will serve them for the rest of their careers.”
Levels 11-16: Masters of the Realm
”Dedicated spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells at 11th level, including spells that completely change the way adventurers interact with the world…. Each spell level after that point introduces new effects with an equally large impact. The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities.“
Levels 17-20: Masters of the World
“Characters have several rare and very rare magic items at their disposal, and begin discovering legendary items such as a vorpal swordor a staff of the magi.”
So, for example, a PC starting at 10th level in one of my campaigns would begin with:
500 gp plus 1d10 × 25 gp
normal starting equipment
2 permanent Uncommon magic items
1 permanent Rare magic item
6 items in any combination of:
0-3 permanent Common items
0-6 Common consumable items*
0-3 Uncommon consumable items*
or they could trade in any 2 two of those lesser items for 1 Rare consumable item*
*If a Wizard PC chooses spell scrolls as their consumable items, then they could automatically convert them into additional learned spells added to their spell book.
Yeah for some reason Wizards just wanted to piss all of us DMs off by making it as hard to find, or rather as easy to overlook, as possible it seems...
Right, because who in their right mind would think that the chapter on creating a campaign and the section about tiers of play might have recommendations relevant to starting a party in a campaign at a given tier of play?
Hey folks, How do you determine what equipment and magic items party members can have when starting at higher levels.
I've had a flick and cant really see any guidelines on how many magic items etc each player should roughly have depending on their level, but thematically they should have more than just their starting equipment....but how much more.
Say you wanted to start a campaign at level 8 for example. i dont want my players running round with a bunch of magic stuff that makes encounters seem pathetic and i dont really think its thematic as for me i find magic items can be too powerful when you have 5 odd players all running round with a rare item each XD
Curious as to how you guys work this out.
Many Thanks
The DMG has recommended options for starting at higher tiers in this section
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/dmg/a-world-of-your-own#TiersofPlay
This information is on an incredibly hard to find table in the DMG (every time I need it, I google it - none of the terms I intuitively look for in the index help locate it), on page 38.
Said table infamously does not match, not even a little, the guidelines elsewhere in the DMG for rewarding players as they level - instead, using the p38 table leaves the party substantially poorer than had they leveled up manually. There are homebrew tables you may be able to find addressing this issue.
Thanks, i've marked it up in my DMG! you're right though, its a good base, but they would seem worse off than if theyd been adventuring from level 1
This is actually the first time I've run into the expectation that it should match. Being generally unnecessary to reach basic performance requirements of a given level (aside maybe from needing magical weapon damage after level 6 or so) magic items are largely about character growth and progress. A player starting at level 8 doesn't need extra items to keep the character feeling new and interesting, as opposed to someone who has played that character for months.
I think it's also petty common practice that when someone rolls up a new character in an ongoing campaign, whether due to death or story circumstances or even just boredom with their old character, the new character is expected to be at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the characters who have been going from the start. The easiest and IMO fairest way to apply this disadvantage is to simply reduce the amount of loot they have. At least that's the way we've always done it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
One balancing factor is that if the players get to choose their magic items, then they will be able to optimize their loadout, rather than just equipping whatever they find along the road. Unless a DM is deliberately fulfilling wishlists, the players are likely to end up with redundant or otherwise useless items that they'd have ended up selling anyway.
You can interpret the discrepancy as the players "trading down" their items for things they actually want.
Magic items don't intrinsically have anything to do with it, and you brought them up, not me - there are many ways to define "poorer". The p38 guidelines, for example, mean that a level 10 character still hasn't managed to get their hands on plate armor. IIRC, if PCs level manually, someone should be able to afford plate armor in a shop by level 6. That can mean a world of difference to a build planning on wearing heavy armor. That's just one example - another expensive thing an adventuring party might want is their own ship, where, again, without bringing magic items into play at all, figuring out by what level the party can credibly afford one will have different answers if you ask page 38 of the DMG vs if you combine things like loot tables and the guidelines for adventuring and so on.
At level 8, only common magic items 2 , 3 potions of healing, and Say 700GP cash to spend on equipment.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Yeah for some reason Wizards just wanted to piss all of us DMs off by making it as hard to find, or rather as easy to overlook, as possible it seems...
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/creating-a-campaign#StartingatHigherLevel
From my reading of page 37 on the DMG, I would suggest that:
If starting at Level 4 or higher, each person should have a potion or a scroll. Wizards could alternatively know an extra spell or two instead of having a scroll. At least one ritual - they do not need to have prepared them.
By level 10, each person should have a rare magic item or a couple of uncommon ones. This is on top of three uses of consumabes (wizard should be able to trade one consumable for a spell known, or all three consumables for four known spells.)
By level 16, each should two rare items or three uncommon ones. At least one should be attuned, most likely two. Throw in four uses of consumables, or for a wizard trade away any # of consumable each for two bonus spells known (max off 8)
At level 20, they should start the game with three attuned items - a legendary and two rares (or possibly two very rares and a rare), plus six uses of consumables (wizards trading one consumable for two extra spells known)
Everyone else should have done things like cast Find Familiar, artificers make items, etc. etc.
That is how I would play it.
I typically start with the “High Magic” column on that👆table, but then add the following to it on top of what’s listed on the table, all of which comes from the “Tiers of Play” section of the DMG:
So, for example, a PC starting at 10th level in one of my campaigns would begin with:
*If a Wizard PC chooses spell scrolls as their consumable items, then they could automatically convert them into additional learned spells added to their spell book.
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Right, because who in their right mind would think that the chapter on creating a campaign and the section about tiers of play might have recommendations relevant to starting a party in a campaign at a given tier of play?
I like to use the Horde Treasure Table in the DMG to set the starting equipment for jump starting players to higher level play.
Chapter 7 is a resource that can help.