No, everyone is forgetting that Entangle only restrains creatures when the spell is cast. Afterwards, the area is just difficult terrain.
So the vines grow FROM the ground, wrap around creatures that are in the area when the spell is cast, but no where does it say those vines are deeply rooted, or rooted at all.
With the right conditions, a seed on a rock will sprout, but will never grow roots.
If I bind your feet and hands, and tie those together so you're in a contorted position, but never bind you to the ground... can you move, or not?
Official answer... i say this because the restrained condition actually answer your question. restrained stops movement fromt he creature. your gust of wind or thorn whip is not making them move by using their movement. its simply displacing them. which is not movement per the rules. thus even if they are restrained, by raw, they still would be displaced, but still would have a speed of zero because of being restrained.
the same logic applies to booming blade. booming blade says if they move, they take another Xd8 damage. i use thorn whip and move them, but nowhere does it say in thorn whip that they use their movement speed, and thus booming blade wouldn'T trigger.
can't remember where the rule is, but there is a rule about it, in either the player handbook or the dm guide.
for clarification, heres the condition... look at first bullet point. key words are in bold.
Restrained
A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
heres your thorn whip.
You create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range. Make a melee spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you.
The spell's damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
it never says anything about the creatures speed. thus the creature would still be restrained and moved 10 feet closer to you.
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I am not a fan of that interpretation because it completely disregards the context of the situation. You are so entangled in vines that you have to make a strength check to break yourself free, but an external force can disregard this entirely. I have a hard time accepting the game mechanics were meant to work that way.
Someone else is manacled to the wall and restrained? Easy. I'll just shove them out of the jail because they are the ones restrained, not me.
I mean, it is a tough interpretation, but it is the one that fits restrained vs teleport effects, etc.
No, everyone is forgetting that Entangle only restrains creatures when the spell is cast. Afterwards, the area is just difficult terrain.
So the vines grow FROM the ground, wrap around creatures that are in the area when the spell is cast, but no where does it say those vines are deeply rooted, or rooted at all.
With the right conditions, a seed on a rock will sprout, but will never grow roots.
If I bind your feet and hands, and tie those together so you're in a contorted position, but never bind you to the ground... can you move, or not?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but once you ARE restrained by the spell, presumably from being in the area when it is cast, that condition ends when either you meet the stipulation written in the spell or the spell ends.
I certainly think that using the definition of a term that the game provides has to be the starting point and ending point of discussing the definition of that term. It also has to be the starting point of discussing conditions that affect it and do not, by the way, affect any movement that is not related to that term.
I certainly think that using the definition of a term that the game provides has to be the starting point and ending point of discussing the definition of that term. It also has to be the starting point of discussing conditions that affect it and do not, by the way, affect any movement that is not related to that term.
It may not overtly state that it does not affect the person being moved by an outside force, but since the plants entangling them are still attached to the ground, why in blazes would you treat it otherwise? If the person was simply tied up by freestanding restraints not attached to anything solid it would be different, but they are not.
Why would you assume that you are intended to treat anything occurring in the game differently than how the rules of that game tell you to?
I agree that RAW, Entangle has no effect whatsoever on forced movement. That's pretty clear, so the argument is how inviolate is that RAW - and that's really a subjective question.
I do think that 5e in particular is intended to be a lot more flexible in these kinds of situations. There are times when you need to fall back on RAW to keep things fair or balanced or challenging, but there are also times when you're encouraged to use RAW as nothing more than a general guide.
Yeah, this is the Rules forum so RAW is important. But part of rules discussion is whether those rules are inadequate or just seem to miss the mark in some situations. Personally, I'd sidebar with my players for a minute and ask them how they think these spells should interact. We'd work it out together, and then my job would be to keep that rule consistent in similar future instances.
It's pretty easy to get into "Ain't no rule that says a dog can't play basketball" territory. And by the way, there's no rule I can find that says outside forces can move you while you're tangled up in magical vines. What we have is a decision based on a lack of rules contradicting this situation. So sure, if you want to say that these vines jump up and entangle the player while simultaneously extricating themselves from the ground (or even if they are still anchored to the ground) and if you want to say that the person chained to the wall and entangled cannot leave under their own power, but can simply be shoved or thorn whipped out of the jail, it is indeed allowed in the sense that there is no written rule saying you cannot do it.
Perhaps some of you would like a new condition, like “Anchored”. Anchored would mean the target is immovable, within whatever constraints apply to a specific situation. Like the Immovable Rod.
There's nothing in the description for entangle that prohibits forced movement. And, in my experience just clearing my yard and fence several times a year, vines dig in and hold on tight. You can rip vines from the ground and still have them wrap around an object. We just don't normally clear them that way. Also, they're magical. A target could absolutely be pulled/pushed about and still be bound by the conjured vines.
You are conflating "when should I apply this condition" with "what does this condition do?"
Those are separate questions.
How, exactly? As you have pointed out, a third party is not constrained by the limitations under the rules. There is no actual condition listed that prevents someone from carrying off someone or something that is restrained, regardless of the sense of the word. Does this mean it is impossible to chain someone to a wall in such a way that a passing wind cannot waft them out of the room? Or in a way that someone couldn't simply ignore the fact the chains are attached to the wall and carry them off regardless?
There is no condition listed that covers such situations. Does that mean, under the rules, that chaining someone to a wall or other solid object only affects them and does not affect anyone or anything else attempting to move them?
I strongly recommend not getting into a battle of "which spell wins" because who cares? Maybe at your table, you decide one way and another table might decide another.
The problem is when you insist that others agree that a condition (which spells out what it does) must do something other than what it states.
There is certainly no reason that a DM couldn't say that you're restrained AND cannot be moved by other particular means. You are trying to invent a problem that doesn't exist to try to force others to take your view on using your reading of a rule for a game based on your understanding of how it might work in the real world.
Official answer... i say this because the restrained condition actually answer your question. restrained stops movement fromt he creature. your gust of wind or thorn whip is not making them move by using their movement. its simply displacing them. which is not movement per the rules. thus even if they are restrained, by raw, they still would be displaced, but still would have a speed of zero because of being restrained.
the same logic applies to booming blade. booming blade says if they move, they take another Xd8 damage. i use thorn whip and move them, but nowhere does it say in thorn whip that they use their movement speed, and thus booming blade wouldn'T trigger.
can't remember where the rule is, but there is a rule about it, in either the player handbook or the dm guide.
for clarification, heres the condition... look at first bullet point. key words are in bold.
Restrained
A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
heres your thorn whip.
You create a long, vioute whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range. Make a melee spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you.
The spell's damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
it never says anything about the creatures speed. thus the creature would still be restrained and moved 10 feet closer to you.
If something moves, its speed during that movement is greater than zero. That is the definition of speed.
exept you are wrong. Each creatures has an actual stat called speed. That speed is only used during the mouvement part of a turn. Any iterations of the word speed refers to that stat. Spells and abilities voluntarily avoid the word speed because they have nothing to do with that stat. Jeremy crawford confirmed this a few times.
This very way of doing this is also why you dont get attack of opportunity from oppenents who were moved from your reach. Because they didnt use their speed stat to move. Thus there is no aoo.
Also... Telling me physics do not work this way... Well we all know physics have been gone from d&d since day one of its inception. So if you want to say moving him uses the speed stat and thus trigger it. Your choice.
Ill end by saying...
I thorn whip you. You get pulled but the vines are still wrapped. Thus still restrained. I think you are missing imagination there. My exemple still works.
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tangentially, I had something come up where turned skeletons were entangled and there was a question about being able to dodge while entangled. (Dodge is allowed per turn undead rules). I ruled dodge can still happen since there is no movement speed involved. Though the word dodge does seem to imply some movement but I just thought of it like Neo in the Matrix swaying out of the way of those bullets.
as for the above issue, I think I would just have PCs roll their strength for gust of wind and if a fail are knocked prone. Then, perhaps a roll is needed to break free of entangle and an action to get up from prone. Then difficult terrain as normal.
To you and others saying this, if the vines are rooted so shallow that they can be so easily uprooted, then the person should be able to roll about, worm about or otherwise still manage some movement.
It all comes down to how far belief has to be suspended. And frankly, I would argue that I have plenty of imagination. More than enough to picture such situations clearly in my head. And we were not even just talking about thorn whip, which itself creates a vine, but also gust of wind.
Again, what makes you so sure that the game works in a way that is different from how that game tells you that it works? Entangle only says that the creatures who fail it are restrained, and that condition only talks about the creature's speed.
It does sound like you have plenty of imagination. I just don't understand why you choose to use your imagination to invent how the game system works, which is something the game system already does for you, instead of inventing a plausible explanation of what the game system tells you happens.
To you and others saying this, if the vines are rooted so shallow that they can be so easily uprooted, then the person should be able to roll about, worm about or otherwise still manage some movement.
It all comes down to how far belief has to be suspended. And frankly, I would argue that I have plenty of imagination. More than enough to picture such situations clearly in my head. And we were not even just talking about thorn whip, which itself creates a vine, but also gust of wind.
I think you have a different idea of what "easily uprooted" means compared to a great many people here. We're talking about gust of wind and thorn whip. The latter of the two can drag a large creature, like a riding horse. Did you know horses can get up to 2,200 lbs (1,000 kilos) in weight? Did you know that gust of wind doesn't have a size limitation? We're talking about incredibly powerful magic at play, here.
Or maybe not. Another character can always grapple and drag a restrained target. Have you ever tried walking with your shoes tied together? Now, imagine being tied up like that all over.
Also keep in mind that restrained is a generic condition that was written to be applied by a variety of sources within the game. It is up to the description of the spell, feature, or other source to elaborate on the nature of the restraint.
To you and others saying this, if the vines are rooted so shallow that they can be so easily uprooted, then the person should be able to roll about, worm about or otherwise still manage some movement.
It all comes down to how far belief has to be suspended. And frankly, I would argue that I have plenty of imagination. More than enough to picture such situations clearly in my head. And we were not even just talking about thorn whip, which itself creates a vine, but also gust of wind.
Again, what makes you so sure that the game works in a way that is different from how that game tells you that it works? Entangle only says that the creatures who fail it are restrained, and that condition only talks about the creature's speed.
It does sound like you have plenty of imagination. I just don't understand why you choose to use your imagination to invent how the game system works, which is something the game system already does for you, instead of inventing a plausible explanation of what the game system tells you happens.
For me, the difference is that between imagining something that enhances and using imagination to simply rationalize. That is just the way I see it and the way my imagination works. Your imaginary mileage may vary :)
if you don't want it to work that way in your game, then do it your way in your game, don'T come here telling us there is a problem when you are one of the few who actually see a problem.
i don't see any problem whatsoever with this, yet you claim we're wrong and there is a problem... there is none. you are the one with a problem, not us. change it in your game, that's it... no need to come here and tell us there should be numerous more rules about it. for my part this hapenned a few times in a my game and it was epicly described and my players never once believed it to be stupid. the same way there is no ruling about someone getting blast by eldritch blast and getting thrown 10 feet back by the force and yet never getting any damage when he hits an object. that didn't stop me from doing it. same happens here...
heres an easy explanation for you... 1) entangle, you get wrapped... 2) druid thorn whip you, the force pushes and uproots the vines out of the zone. 3) good news you are no longer restrained cause you are no longer in the entangle zone, bad news the barbarian to which you have been pushed is pretty god darn angry.
there you go, one way that easy to believe... and it fits the ruling. heres another one for you... 1) entangle, you get wrapped in vines. 2) druid uses thorn whip to pull, yet you are still in entangle zone. 3) you are uprooted by the thorn whip, pulled 10 feet against the ground, the vines tries to keep their attachment but can't. yet once you finally stop the vines sucessfully reattaches themseles and you find yourself unmoving again.
there you go. that last one hapenned to me a few times, never have i anyone from my 5 groups of players ever complain about it not being believable.
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No, everyone is forgetting that Entangle only restrains creatures when the spell is cast. Afterwards, the area is just difficult terrain.
So the vines grow FROM the ground, wrap around creatures that are in the area when the spell is cast, but no where does it say those vines are deeply rooted, or rooted at all.
With the right conditions, a seed on a rock will sprout, but will never grow roots.
If I bind your feet and hands, and tie those together so you're in a contorted position, but never bind you to the ground... can you move, or not?
Official answer...
i say this because the restrained condition actually answer your question.
restrained stops movement fromt he creature.
your gust of wind or thorn whip is not making them move by using their movement. its simply displacing them. which is not movement per the rules.
thus even if they are restrained, by raw, they still would be displaced, but still would have a speed of zero because of being restrained.
the same logic applies to booming blade.
booming blade says if they move, they take another Xd8 damage.
i use thorn whip and move them, but nowhere does it say in thorn whip that they use their movement speed, and thus booming blade wouldn'T trigger.
can't remember where the rule is, but there is a rule about it, in either the player handbook or the dm guide.
for clarification, heres the condition... look at first bullet point. key words are in bold.
heres your thorn whip.
it never says anything about the creatures speed. thus the creature would still be restrained and moved 10 feet closer to you.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I mean, it is a tough interpretation, but it is the one that fits restrained vs teleport effects, etc.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but once you ARE restrained by the spell, presumably from being in the area when it is cast, that condition ends when either you meet the stipulation written in the spell or the spell ends.
Yea? Speed isn't what the game defines it as? That is good to know.
I certainly think that using the definition of a term that the game provides has to be the starting point and ending point of discussing the definition of that term. It also has to be the starting point of discussing conditions that affect it and do not, by the way, affect any movement that is not related to that term.
Why would you assume that you are intended to treat anything occurring in the game differently than how the rules of that game tell you to?
You are conflating "when should I apply this condition" with "what does this condition do?"
Those are separate questions.
I agree that RAW, Entangle has no effect whatsoever on forced movement. That's pretty clear, so the argument is how inviolate is that RAW - and that's really a subjective question.
I do think that 5e in particular is intended to be a lot more flexible in these kinds of situations. There are times when you need to fall back on RAW to keep things fair or balanced or challenging, but there are also times when you're encouraged to use RAW as nothing more than a general guide.
Yeah, this is the Rules forum so RAW is important. But part of rules discussion is whether those rules are inadequate or just seem to miss the mark in some situations. Personally, I'd sidebar with my players for a minute and ask them how they think these spells should interact. We'd work it out together, and then my job would be to keep that rule consistent in similar future instances.
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It's pretty easy to get into "Ain't no rule that says a dog can't play basketball" territory. And by the way, there's no rule I can find that says outside forces can move you while you're tangled up in magical vines. What we have is a decision based on a lack of rules contradicting this situation. So sure, if you want to say that these vines jump up and entangle the player while simultaneously extricating themselves from the ground (or even if they are still anchored to the ground) and if you want to say that the person chained to the wall and entangled cannot leave under their own power, but can simply be shoved or thorn whipped out of the jail, it is indeed allowed in the sense that there is no written rule saying you cannot do it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Perhaps some of you would like a new condition, like “Anchored”.
Anchored would mean the target is immovable, within whatever constraints apply to a specific situation. Like the Immovable Rod.
There's nothing in the description for entangle that prohibits forced movement. And, in my experience just clearing my yard and fence several times a year, vines dig in and hold on tight. You can rip vines from the ground and still have them wrap around an object. We just don't normally clear them that way. Also, they're magical. A target could absolutely be pulled/pushed about and still be bound by the conjured vines.
I strongly recommend not getting into a battle of "which spell wins" because who cares? Maybe at your table, you decide one way and another table might decide another.
The problem is when you insist that others agree that a condition (which spells out what it does) must do something other than what it states.
There is certainly no reason that a DM couldn't say that you're restrained AND cannot be moved by other particular means. You are trying to invent a problem that doesn't exist to try to force others to take your view on using your reading of a rule for a game based on your understanding of how it might work in the real world.
exept you are wrong. Each creatures has an actual stat called speed. That speed is only used during the mouvement part of a turn. Any iterations of the word speed refers to that stat. Spells and abilities voluntarily avoid the word speed because they have nothing to do with that stat. Jeremy crawford confirmed this a few times.
This very way of doing this is also why you dont get attack of opportunity from oppenents who were moved from your reach. Because they didnt use their speed stat to move. Thus there is no aoo.
Also... Telling me physics do not work this way... Well we all know physics have been gone from d&d since day one of its inception. So if you want to say moving him uses the speed stat and thus trigger it. Your choice.
Ill end by saying...
I thorn whip you. You get pulled but the vines are still wrapped. Thus still restrained. I think you are missing imagination there. My exemple still works.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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tangentially, I had something come up where turned skeletons were entangled and there was a question about being able to dodge while entangled. (Dodge is allowed per turn undead rules). I ruled dodge can still happen since there is no movement speed involved. Though the word dodge does seem to imply some movement but I just thought of it like Neo in the Matrix swaying out of the way of those bullets.
as for the above issue, I think I would just have PCs roll their strength for gust of wind and if a fail are knocked prone. Then, perhaps a roll is needed to break free of entangle and an action to get up from prone. Then difficult terrain as normal.
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Again, what makes you so sure that the game works in a way that is different from how that game tells you that it works? Entangle only says that the creatures who fail it are restrained, and that condition only talks about the creature's speed.
It does sound like you have plenty of imagination. I just don't understand why you choose to use your imagination to invent how the game system works, which is something the game system already does for you, instead of inventing a plausible explanation of what the game system tells you happens.
I think you have a different idea of what "easily uprooted" means compared to a great many people here. We're talking about gust of wind and thorn whip. The latter of the two can drag a large creature, like a riding horse. Did you know horses can get up to 2,200 lbs (1,000 kilos) in weight? Did you know that gust of wind doesn't have a size limitation? We're talking about incredibly powerful magic at play, here.
Or maybe not. Another character can always grapple and drag a restrained target. Have you ever tried walking with your shoes tied together? Now, imagine being tied up like that all over.
Also keep in mind that restrained is a generic condition that was written to be applied by a variety of sources within the game. It is up to the description of the spell, feature, or other source to elaborate on the nature of the restraint.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
if you don't want it to work that way in your game, then do it your way in your game, don'T come here telling us there is a problem when you are one of the few who actually see a problem.
i don't see any problem whatsoever with this, yet you claim we're wrong and there is a problem... there is none. you are the one with a problem, not us. change it in your game, that's it... no need to come here and tell us there should be numerous more rules about it. for my part this hapenned a few times in a my game and it was epicly described and my players never once believed it to be stupid. the same way there is no ruling about someone getting blast by eldritch blast and getting thrown 10 feet back by the force and yet never getting any damage when he hits an object. that didn't stop me from doing it. same happens here...
heres an easy explanation for you...
1) entangle, you get wrapped...
2) druid thorn whip you, the force pushes and uproots the vines out of the zone.
3) good news you are no longer restrained cause you are no longer in the entangle zone, bad news the barbarian to which you have been pushed is pretty god darn angry.
there you go, one way that easy to believe... and it fits the ruling.
heres another one for you...
1) entangle, you get wrapped in vines.
2) druid uses thorn whip to pull, yet you are still in entangle zone.
3) you are uprooted by the thorn whip, pulled 10 feet against the ground, the vines tries to keep their attachment but can't. yet once you finally stop the vines sucessfully reattaches themseles and you find yourself unmoving again.
there you go. that last one hapenned to me a few times, never have i anyone from my 5 groups of players ever complain about it not being believable.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)