To start off- I know a player can't flank with a spiritual weapon, that is not the question I am asking (although it's easier to answer so it's the one I often get).
Consider if player A was to the north of a goblin and player B was to the South if it. With the option Flanking rule, they would be considered Flanking. Now player A attacks the same goblin with Spiritual Weapon. Does the melee spell attack that player A makes have advantage?
I know it feels wierd RAI, but I'm asking RAW.
I think that it does, but I would like to know what other people think. (Also confirmation, lol, that would be great- but your honest rules interpretation first please :)
RAW yes; the rules for flanking specify you get advantage on your attacks and spiritual specifies that you make the attack. Flanking doesn't specify the attack has to come from your space, just that you need to be the one making it and that you're attacking the creature you're flanking.
Spiritual Weapon
When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. ....As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it.
Flanking Rules
When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
Yeah this is a particularly bizarre interaction, and I would definitely make a contrary ruling if it ever came up at my table, but I agree with the others that RAW, the attack would benefit from flanking.
Yea both players are in flanking positions and the spiritual weapon is close enough anywhere to attack. Because the player gets flanking so does the spiritual weapon - because the spiritual weapon is a melee attack and flanking gives advantage on melee attacks.
Yea both players are in flanking positions and the spiritual weapon is close enough anywhere to attack. Because the player gets flanking so does the spiritual weapon - because the spiritual weapon is a melee attack and flanking gives advantage on melee attacks.
The weapon could be in the same position as PC1 or PC2, the SW has no restriction on being in an unoccupied space. Now that would strictly be an optical choice, but it might resolve the mental block that the situation presents some people.
An interesting point about the spiritual weapon spell is that while you “create a floating, spectral weapon” and YOU can attack a creature within 5ft of that weapon, the spell never states you make an attack with it.
The spells proximity to a creature gives the ability for you to make a melee spell attack.
-the weapon can take what ever form you wish
-weapon is never stated to actually be used to attack
-it isnt limited to ground level movement
-it doesnt occupy its space
-it can be created in another creatures space
-no concentration which is one of its strongest benefits. I once played with a cleric that cast the spell but was subsequently killed. The weapon just floated there eerily.
When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
The biggest flaw with your logic is that it states that "When a creature and at least one of its ALLIES are adjacent to an enemy...". The spiritual weapon is not a person, not a character, and not an ally. It's a spell effect. It doesn't take attacks of opportunity or flank.
When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
The biggest flaw with your logic is that it states that "When a creature and at least one of its ALLIES are adjacent to an enemy...". The spiritual weapon is not a person, not a character, and not an ally. It's a spell effect. It doesn't take attacks of opportunity or flank.
Re-read the OP. That’s not what the thread is about.
This came up in our game last night. I am new and I wasn't sure as DM i ruled that it did not get advantage. Looking more closely is I feel a melee attack is not the same as a melee spell attack. I also agree it is not a person, character or an ally even if the creature is already flanked.
This came up in our game last night. I am new and I wasn't sure as DM i ruled that it did not get advantage. Looking more closely is I feel a melee attack is not the same as a melee spell attack. I also agree it is not a person, character or an ally even if the creature is already flanked.
A melee spell attack is a melee attack, but it is important to note that the caster is the one making the attack, not the spell; and, the spell does not count as an ally.
The way I see it, the spell is an extension of the caster. It can capitalize on the same openings as the cleric because it is literally the cleric attacking with it. Just picture the cleric having a long noodle-y third arm holding the weapon and swinging with it.
My interpretation: The Spiritual Weapon does not count in any way with regard to setting up the Flanking as it is not a creature nor ally. A creature involved in Flanking gains advantage on Melee Attacks, but SW is a Melee Spell Attack - so no luck.
Crawford states that the caster of SW is the one doing the targeting. This is his reason for granting Advantage against Prone, Restrained, Paralyzed and Stunned enemies.
A creature involved in Flanking gains advantage on Melee Attacks, but SW is a Melee Spell Attack - so no luck.
A melee spell attack IS a melee attack.
Melee weapon attack. Melee spell attack... both are: melee attacks.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
40 sessions into our campaign and this finally came up today. I remembered this thread and I ruled the cleric could attack with advantage using the spiritual weapon. I had to take a moment and explain it to the players, but it wasn't a hard sell to give them advantage when they didn't think they would get it.
40 sessions into our campaign and this finally came up today. I remembered this thread and I ruled the cleric could attack with advantage using the spiritual weapon. I had to take a moment and explain it to the players, but it wasn't a hard sell to give them advantage when they didn't think they would get it.
What was your line of thought to ruled the cleric had advantage?
There is an optional rule to allow combatants to attack with advantage if they're in flanking positions.
This rule relies on their position, not the position of the attack.
It rarely comes up, since by an large most attacks come from your own space. But if it doesn't, like in the example of spiritual weapon, remember it is the character location that matters for determination here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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To start off- I know a player can't flank with a spiritual weapon, that is not the question I am asking (although it's easier to answer so it's the one I often get).
Consider if player A was to the north of a goblin and player B was to the South if it. With the option Flanking rule, they would be considered Flanking. Now player A attacks the same goblin with Spiritual Weapon. Does the melee spell attack that player A makes have advantage?
I know it feels wierd RAI, but I'm asking RAW.
I think that it does, but I would like to know what other people think. (Also confirmation, lol, that would be great- but your honest rules interpretation first please :)
RAW yes; the rules for flanking specify you get advantage on your attacks and spiritual specifies that you make the attack. Flanking doesn't specify the attack has to come from your space, just that you need to be the one making it and that you're attacking the creature you're flanking.
Spiritual Weapon
Flanking Rules
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That is a very weird rule interaction. In this case the spiritual weapon can get the flanking bonus when a player in the same position could not.
Yeah this is a particularly bizarre interaction, and I would definitely make a contrary ruling if it ever came up at my table, but I agree with the others that RAW, the attack would benefit from flanking.
Yea both players are in flanking positions and the spiritual weapon is close enough anywhere to attack. Because the player gets flanking so does the spiritual weapon - because the spiritual weapon is a melee attack and flanking gives advantage on melee attacks.
Seems counter-intuitive but valid.
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The weapon could be in the same position as PC1 or PC2, the SW has no restriction on being in an unoccupied space. Now that would strictly be an optical choice, but it might resolve the mental block that the situation presents some people.
An interesting point about the spiritual weapon spell is that while you “create a floating, spectral weapon” and YOU can attack a creature within 5ft of that weapon, the spell never states you make an attack with it.
The spells proximity to a creature gives the ability for you to make a melee spell attack.
-the weapon can take what ever form you wish
-weapon is never stated to actually be used to attack
-it isnt limited to ground level movement
-it doesnt occupy its space
-it can be created in another creatures space
-no concentration which is one of its strongest benefits. I once played with a cleric that cast the spell but was subsequently killed. The weapon just floated there eerily.
The biggest flaw with your logic is that it states that "When a creature and at least one of its ALLIES are adjacent to an enemy...". The spiritual weapon is not a person, not a character, and not an ally. It's a spell effect. It doesn't take attacks of opportunity or flank.
Re-read the OP. That’s not what the thread is about.
This came up in our game last night. I am new and I wasn't sure as DM i ruled that it did not get advantage. Looking more closely is I feel a melee attack is not the same as a melee spell attack. I also agree it is not a person, character or an ally even if the creature is already flanked.
A melee spell attack is a melee attack, but it is important to note that the caster is the one making the attack, not the spell; and, the spell does not count as an ally.
The way I see it, the spell is an extension of the caster. It can capitalize on the same openings as the cleric because it is literally the cleric attacking with it. Just picture the cleric having a long noodle-y third arm holding the weapon and swinging with it.
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My interpretation:
The Spiritual Weapon does not count in any way with regard to setting up the Flanking as it is not a creature nor ally.
A creature involved in Flanking gains advantage on Melee Attacks, but SW is a Melee Spell Attack - so no luck.
Crawford states that the caster of SW is the one doing the targeting. This is his reason for granting Advantage against Prone, Restrained, Paralyzed and Stunned enemies.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-a-spiritual-weapon-attack-get-advantage-or-disadvantage-if-the-caster-is-5ft-away-from-a-prone-target/
A melee spell attack IS a melee attack.
Melee weapon attack. Melee spell attack... both are: melee attacks.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
40 sessions into our campaign and this finally came up today. I remembered this thread and I ruled the cleric could attack with advantage using the spiritual weapon. I had to take a moment and explain it to the players, but it wasn't a hard sell to give them advantage when they didn't think they would get it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Flannking cares about attckers and target positioning, not where the attack originate from.
What was your line of thought to ruled the cleric had advantage?
Because the cleric was in a flanking position and the cleric was making the attack despite that attack coming from the spiritual weapon.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is an optional rule to allow combatants to attack with advantage if they're in flanking positions.
This rule relies on their position, not the position of the attack.
It rarely comes up, since by an large most attacks come from your own space. But if it doesn't, like in the example of spiritual weapon, remember it is the character location that matters for determination here.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.