I noticed that in 5e you don't seem to be able to change your place in the Initiative Order, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I see that you can Ready an Action to do an Action or Move outside your normal initiative, but this also uses your ReAction. I don't see a way to actually change your initiative and this bothers me, because it reduces the ability to act cooperatively as a party. "Yes" the Wizard can hold off on his fireball until the Rogue disengages and moves away, but it doesn't allow for consitent synergy.
Example. I was playing a Paladin with Shield Master and used my Bonus Action to shove a zombie to the ground and attack it. The two weapon wielding fighter got a higher initative so he went. Then I shoved a zombie to the ground. Then the zombies went so he stood up. I couldn't synergize with the fighter. I couldn't knock the zombie to the ground opening him up for the Fighter to capitalize on the situation and double attack with Advantage.
The GM mentioned I could Ready an Action to shove the zombie after it's turn, but that seem insanely lame, because then I'm taking out my damage as a front line fighter out of the equation just to maybe knock them down and maybe give the fighter two attacks with advantage.
Another example would be the Rogue (who is likely to have a higher init) wanting to act after the Fighter, because Sneak Attack needs an ally within 5'.
RAW, that is the correct ruling - once determined, initiative is fixed. Readying actions is the only way to temporarily break that order.
It's worth noting that its cyclical nature means that initiative only matters on Turn 1. If the Rogue takes his first turn to hide and wait for the Fighter to charge in, from that point forward he acts "after" the Fighter. I think people put a lot of imaginary weight on initiative - yes, Turn 1 matters, but there are other considerations to combat. At the end of the day it's just a logistical abstraction of a number of things happening at once.
Remember that the Rogue's sneak attack doesn't need an ally within 5' if he is hidden, which he can do as a bonus action before long, or has some other way of gaining advantage. Scouting ahead and setting up traps is incentivized.
Remember that the Rogue's sneak attack doesn't need an ally within 5' if he is hidden, which he can do as a bonus action before long, or has some other way of gaining advantage. Scouting ahead and setting up traps is incentivized.
Yes it's not the only way, but it's consistent and only dependent on factors under your (and the party's) control. It's not dependent on there being sufficient cover, passing a hide test, etc... etc... etc... (The fact that I personally think hiding in combat is a joke, but I know I've lost the official ruling on that in another forum)
Also the cyclical nature means that it's literally not irrelevant after turn 1. My example above both the Fighter and the Paladin bet the Zombies in initiative, but can't synergize in combat because the Zombie's negate a bonus the Paladin provides. In the example with the Rogue, the entire battlefield can change between the two initiatives.
Alot of people modify many rules, and initiative is no exception. As stated, that is the correct interpretation of the rules as written, but there's nothing stating you can't "homebrew" a rule around moving your initiative if your DM/group is ok with it (provided of course, it isn't AL play).
I personally play with the RAW in this case, but I have seen many modifications of initiative which allow you to completely "hold your turn" until you wish to take it, I believe that was allowed in 3.5 (I think it was called Delaying).
I personally play with the RAW in this case, but I have seen many modifications of initiative which allow you to completely "hold your turn" until you wish to take it, I believe that was allowed in 3.5 (I think it was called Delaying).
That was my surprise at this decision. The ability to alter your place permanently in the initiative order has been around a long time.
Yes, there is always Home Brew, but I wanted to confirm my assumption is correct, I would like to hear from the Dev why they removed it as an option.
In the 3.5 Unearth Arcana favorite section was "Behind the Veil" where they explained their decision making.
I personally play with the RAW in this case, but I have seen many modifications of initiative which allow you to completely "hold your turn" until you wish to take it, I believe that was allowed in 3.5 (I think it was called Delaying).
That was my surprise at this decision. The ability to alter your place permanently in the initiative order has been around a long time.
Yes, there is always Home Brew, but I wanted to confirm my assumption is correct, I would like to hear from the Dev why they removed it as an option.
In the 3.5 Unearth Arcana favorite section was "Behind the Veil" where they explained their decision making.
For a variety of reasons, we didn’t include the option to delay your turn:
• Your turn involves several decisions, including where to move and what action to take. If you could delay your turn, your decision-making would possibly become slower, since you would have to consider whether you wanted to take your turn at all. Multiply that extra analysis by the number of characters and monsters in a combat, and you have the potential for many slowdowns in play.
• The ability to delay your turn can make initiative meaningless, as characters and monsters bounce around in the initiative order. If combatants can change their place in the initiative order at will, why use initiative at all? On top of that, changing initiative can easily turn into an unwelcome chore, especially for the DM, who might have to change the initiative list over and over during a fight.
• Being able to delay your turn can let you wreak havoc on the durations of spells and other effects, particularly any of them that last until your next turn. Simply by changing when your turn happens, you could change the length of certain spells. The way to guard against such abuse would be to create a set of additional rules that would limit your ability to change durations. The net effect? More complexity would be added to the game, and with more complexity, there is greater potential for slower play.
Two of our goals for combat were for it to be speedy and for initiative to matter. We didn’t want to start every combat by rolling initiative and then undermine turn order with a delay option. Moreover, we felt that toying with initiative wasn’t where the focus should be in battle. Instead, the dramatic actions of the combatants should be the focus, with turns that happen as quickly as possible.
To put it another way, if you have the ability to change your position in the turn order, you go from having to consider the best possible turn at the current initiative count, to considering the best possible turn at every initiative count. That's an order of magnitude more complicated. By simply removing those chioces you prevent analysis paralysis.
Part of the playtesting feedback that drove 5th edition's design was that speed of play is important, and that's reflected in many of the choices Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls made:
The passive Perception mechanic means hiding only requires one roll, instead of every enemy making an opposed roll.
The limits of 1 bonus action, 1 reaction and 1 concentration spell restrict how much you can get done in one turn, which in turn limits the number of combinations you have to consider.
Being unable to convert bonus actions to normal actions also limits the number of action combinations you have to consider.
Removing the 5-foot-step, Full Attacks, threatened squares and limiting opportunity attacks greatly reduces how much shifting around happens in combat, while being simpler to remember. (Note that the 5 foot step made most opportunity attack rules irrelevant if the enemy didn't have reach, since you could 5-foot-step out of reach and perform actions that provoked.)
Using the same attack bonus for all attacks and having less bonuses in general limits slowdowns from having to do math mid-game.
Most mechanics that involve rerolling dice are limited to rare circumstances (e.g. rolling a 1 or 20).
Monster grapples don't use opposed rolls and use a fixed DC to cut down in how much dice rolling the DM and player have to do, especially if there's multiple monsters with grapples in the same combat.
You roll initiative once for each group of identical monsters. (I'm not a fan of this rule, but it does speed things up.)
Conditions and effects like Energy Drain and Negative Levels that require recalculating large parts of your character sheet were removed.
Removing bonus types also makes it much quicker to add or receive bonuses mid-play, because you don't have to look over all your other bonuses to see if it stacks or not.
FullMetalBunny, your post outlines one of the reasons why I decided to drop Initiative altogether except for rare "precise timing" conflicts.
However that required me to do MASSIVE changes to the way combat is handled. I’m proud to say I succeeded in making a system that is 100% superior in all ways to the basic D&D one. Took me only 20 years ! lol. Benefits :
- Smaller « wall » between encounter mode vs combat mode.
- Faster combats resolution.
- Combat feels less « start-stop-turns » and more smooth and dynamic instead, encouraging quick decision making and actually mastering your PC’s powers.
- Player turns involve more decisions with tradeoffs, instead of being able to always perform at top efficiency possible.
- Instead of long player turns with even longer wait before getting his turn again, round is instead « split » in more numerous smaller « units » that instead target all players together or eachh one in very quick succession. Better players attention, focus, excitement, and engagement.
- Easier to control « analysis-paralysis ».
Nobody rolls Initiative. DEX was already the "god" stat anyway. A few adjustements to powers that affect Initiative.
A round lasts 10 seconds instead of 6. Impacts :
- More « roleplay during combat » allowed.
- Not really a magic nerf : 1 minutes duration effects often end early anyway because of broken Concentration or the target finally makes its Save, and combat rarely last more than 6 rounds.
- Better table ergonomics : I can use big d6s to track Combat Round Number and 1-minute duration effects.
Ergonomicallly speaking, focusing on rolling dice just slow things down in a qquite puerile way : It should be a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. But players love to roll dice anyway while everybody watches them rolling ! Because ego is strong.
So we alternate : before every fight, DM decides if it will be a « resolution with dice » or « resolution with roleplay » fight.
THE COMBAT SEQUENCE :
- STEP 1: "ROUND X" (replacing X with the actual round number)
Increase Round Counter Dice.
DM describes the overall tactical situation, and telegraphs the most easily visible enemy intents. List special terrain effects that start only now, if it wasn’t done in end of previous round step or starts right in round 1
Also describe for alllies not just enemies.
Allow a tiny bit of roleplay.
- STEP 2: "DECLARE INTENT"
In player sitting order around the table, each player describes his entire turn (action + move + bonus + interaction + reaction, if aplicable), in the form of a generic intent declaration.
No handling dice or miniatures here or specifiying specific squares.
Say player’s PC is a level 5 fighter with 3 attacks (a 2 one from Extra Attack, and is preferred way to fight is Two-Weapon Fighting), facing 3 orcs. Then he has to make the more intersting and also more difficult tactical decision of what to attack : focus fire to make sure to down one of them, or spread out his attacks more ?
Note that there is a lot of real-life precent : in medieval battles, combattants quite often took « deathly wounds » yet could take tens of seconds before the « newly deceased » fell down. Or even kept on full-on fighting for several minutes before dying from all the blood loss. You’d be surprised how efficient adrenalin is in removing pain ! Temporarily, at least. So saying that a creature can remain up and running until the end of the current round is NOT an exageration at all. It is rather videogames ruine people’s common sense by making vanquished foes fall flat INSTANTLY on the floor, not even using a falling animation : one moment its up and kicking and the exact millisecond it reaches zero HP WHAM its prone and dead.
Declaring which specific squares you move is allowed if taking the "Careful Movement" Action : Every square cost 1 extra 5 feet of movement, and you get an an Active Perception check to find « big & basic » traps along the path of movement (right before stepping onto them of course).
plaayers are allowed to briefly talk together or outright not respect the table order at all. Say a player is REALLLY wanting to declare what he's going first, just let him. A good DM is not the police he's a facilitator, within a structure sure but not a torturoulsy hard iron maiden type of structure.
- STEP 3: "ROLL DICE"
This step occurs only in a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight.
Since there is already randomness in the to hit roll, AND the players usually don’t know exactly how many HP an enemy has, randonnes sis not really neded on the dammage roll. ALL non-D20 DICE ARE REMOVED. Much less game table clutter! Non-D20 Dice become of a fixed value instead. For Base Weapon Damage, it is the max. For all other dice, including bonus weapon damage dice, it is half of the max. Crits are the total doubled. Yes, ouchie.
The damage is thus directly written on PC sheets right besides their various attacks. Quick and painless !
Everybody rolls all the dice needed for all his stated actions. Since the player can easily not know every applicable detail in advance, it is assumed players ALWAYS need to roll a pair of d20 for each attack, in case Avantage/Disavantage needs to be applied.
All dices are color coded by hue (1st, 2, 3 etc. attacks) and by shading (opaque for the base eice, and more transparennt for the advantage/disadvantagge dice), and are rolled all in one go. No partial rolling allowed : any dice a player « forgot » is treated as being an automatic failure result *(so even if you roll a Nat 20 on your hued opaque first dice, if you forgot to also roll your 2 same-hue transparent dice, and it turns out that you had Disadvantage in that roll, well, that 20 turns into an auto failure anyway).
All players roll all at the same time, then order them in a proper « reading » order. However, no dice results are spoken aloud for now.
DM can also try to do this but when he has many enemies to deal with he will be forgiven to remain functioning in a « resolutioin with dice » type of fight.
Basically, the rules talk about rolls. But here all the rolls are always all rolled all together in a single dicethrow. Forget one roll in your only-one-throw-allowed and it means the misssed rolls are simply failures instead.
Rolling too many dice instead causes no problems. Only the needed dice for a maximum-action round are allowed on the table. After a while player get used to it and react much faster : they simply roll all their dice all at once, end of story.
This system seems hard-fisted but ultimately it help speeding up combat a LOT.
- STEP 4: "ACTION RESOLUTION "
This is split into a small number of « phases ». The exact number is decided by the DM on a round by round basis with the goal of using a small number, but also allow visualizing the combat resolution as clearly as possible. Each Phase thus represent a « fraction » of the entire round’s worth of actions and operatws on the basics that everything in a given Phase happens nearly simultaneously. No « start and stop » effect here !
For example a fighter moves to attack twice, while a monk already in melee attacks 3 times, and a rogue moves and Dashes and then throws a Dagger. Meanwhile the evil baron’s soldiers all charge into melee if they weren’t already. DM might thus split the Round in 3 phases :
Phase A : Fighter Rogue and Soldiers do 1 Move each, Monk does 1st attack. Soldiers that were already in melee at beginning of phase also attack.
Phase B : Fighter 1st attack, Rogue another Move (the dash), Monk 2 attack. Remaining of soldiers attack.
Phase C : Fighter 1nd attack, Rogue throws dagger, Monk 3rd attack, and the soldiers do nothing.
What is important is these :
- It is the DM that moves all the minis around, trying his best to render the player’s previously stated intent as best as possible. For example if the fighter was moving towards a soldier annd the soldier was moving sideways, the DM moves the fighter so that his PC quickly adjusts his direction to match and intercept the soldier. Even INT 2 creatures can easily do such « on the fly » such combat movements adjustments. INT 1 creatures might do it fully, partially, or not at all.
- Non-Elite creatures remain up & running until the end of the current Phase, then fall. Elite creatures remain up & running. Rare exception might occur. For example the paladin has a vorpal sword and lobs his foe’s head off. Obviously, a non-elite enemy could ssimply die instantly without being able to strike back before fallling. Or a PC and an enemy both try to grab the same macguffiin item and then run away. for such « critical timing events », opposed Initiative checks ares used to detemine exact order.
- If it is a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight, the players are invited to use the results of the dice they rollled in the previous step, be they successes or failures, to describe how their actions succeeded or failed.
- If it is a « resolution with dice » type of fight, the players make their, a single dice throw (of all the dice needed for multiple rolls but rolled all together) for each entire Phase. example DM says this round has 2 Phases, and Monk says he moves to then attack 3 times. In Phase A he will move + attack once (2 dice : base atk + the obligatory adv/disad dice). In phase B he will attack twice, rolling four color-coded dice (1st + 2nd atk, and base + advantage/disadvantagge dice foor each atk).
- Since movements can change if an attack is made normally or with modifiers or at all, even within a Phase movement requires some order ». Movement first, then attacks. An enemy is next to you and you want to go ful attack on it ? Why not say « stick to this guy » : if he tries to flee you get the opportunity attack AND your own movement will make you pursue that target automatically.
- DM needs to allow some overall flexibility. Just follow the obviously stated INTENT so that the PC performs « apppropriately ». Not stupidly « oh I sidN’t say I wanted to pursue the evi baron and h3e moved so I lose all my attacks now duuuh ragequits. Assume the Step 2 Declared Inent is a « general » stated intent, and on the fly quick small and OBVIOUS adjustments are allowed. Like trying to make sure the suddenly fleeing target you stated you wanted to kill, stilll receive your attack, and letting the player choose if he pursues or not at that instant. Wasting player actions « because you didn’t fully say so in Declare Intent Step » would be a really big dickhead DM move.
- Still push for all players to roll their throw together, but I got for it in a « subunit » style. Say 4 PCs are in a 2x2 f5rmation and they are sourrounded by 12 3 soldiers, I say to the 3 players : ok roll your first attack guys and I immediately roll my own thtrow for my 12 attacks and then look at thep plaayers :: « what, not finished your throw yet ? I did my 12 goons already ! » I actuallly try two variants "resolution with individual dice" and "resolution with Phase dice". The first variant is even more permisssive: players can do each roll sseparately, not limited to 1 throw per Phase. I find this slow as all heck but hey gotta listen to your players sometimes even the super slowpokes ones that make snails looks like race cars.
- 2 Medium or 1 Large or 3 Small dead creatures in a square turn it into difficult terrain.
- STEP 5: "END OF ROUND X"
All effects counters go up by 1. List effects that end.
New battlefield situations get described, both in terms of terrain and conditions (« suddenly the storm picks up a lot » or « the long row of pillars starts falling, all domino like, one after the other … seems like remaining in that line of pillars could be a very dangerous place to be !).
Also describe new enemy reinforcements, if any.
Marvel Effect and Combat Interruptions :
If something happpens that puts the fight on « pause » like say trying to parley, the fight is put on pause, and if the fight later resumes, itv resumes exactly qhere it was left off.
Think of this like Superman fighting some baddie and there is a 2-pages-splash of Supes knocking thye baddie in the jaw, while around them there are 12 super big and long speech bubbles. It doesn’t take supes 6 seconds to make one punch to thge baddie’s jaw. Yet they talked for like 2 minutes. Just handle it like that : all combat data is fully on pause while the rolpelay bit is handled, but not lost.
Before I did that, players often used « parley » tactics to try to make enemy buffs run out and reposition themselves in a favorable positon, before simply resuming hostilities. Or, similarlly, refused rolep ;lay outright to avoid running tinme4 out on their own buffs. Nope ; if someone interrupts combayt it is 100% for roleplay not to gain a combat advantage. And nobody will avoid doing roleplay for the fear of losing a combat advantage, either. Realistic ? Nope. More fun and fair ? Sure !
After playing like this, our group can't go back to the normal "start-stop-style-one-player-turn-at-a-time" old initiative system.
After playing like this, our group can't go back to the normal "start-stop-style-one-player-turn-at-a-time" old initiative system.
This literally changes the entire game - changes player agency (can’t move your own character), leaves combat order up to the DM (could be good or bad, but leaves it up to their whim), drastically unbalances certain types of attacks (sneak attack max?), changes feat usage (initiative feats useless unless DM takes it info effect), changes metamagic bonus actions, reactions…
At this stage, I’d say throw this up on DMs guild or homebrew site, but as it sits here this is pretty much just a different game entirely and would require so much pre-prep that it would add days to a typical game. Unless your whole table is in for this wild ride, I’d stay away.
After playing like this, our group can't go back to the normal "start-stop-style-one-player-turn-at-a-time" old initiative system.
This literally changes the entire game - changes player agency (can’t move your own character), leaves combat order up to the DM (could be good or bad, but leaves it up to their whim), drastically unbalances certain types of attacks (sneak attack max?), changes feat usage (initiative feats useless unless DM takes it info effect), changes metamagic bonus actions, reactions…
At this stage, I’d say throw this up on DMs guild or homebrew site, but as it sits here this is pretty much just a different game entirely and would require so much pre-prep that it would add days to a typical game. Unless your whole table is in for this wild ride, I’d stay away.
Yep. There are many other game systems out there which would fit in with the style of what was described in the TL;DR.
We have houseruled that when initiative is rolled, you have one chance to move your turn to a lower spot in the order if you wish. It doesn't add that much complexity and it really just feels like something you should be able to do.
The only issue we've run into with this (or perhaps you could see it as a strength) is that anyone on an intelligent mount can move their turn to just after their mount, removing the downside of not really being able to control where they will be on their turn.
We have houseruled that when initiative is rolled, you have one chance to move your turn to a lower spot in the order if you wish. It doesn't add that much complexity and it really just feels like something you should be able to do.
The only issue we've run into with this (or perhaps you could see it as a strength) is that anyone on an intelligent mount can move their turn to just after their mount, removing the downside of not really being able to control where they will be on their turn.
I like the houserule, but I would argue that any rule that says a mount/creature takes it's turn immediately after or during yours would still do so. Normal controlled mounts share your initiative, so they would shift in the order with you if you decided to shift. This would work though, for uncontrolled mounts, which keep their own initiative. Ultimately, its your houserule, but If I allowed this in my game, I'd place those restrictions on it.
I'd also rule that you can't change your place in the order if you are surprised, and you don't get to know the order that DM controlled enemy creatures are in, so you can only change in relation to your fellow party members
FullMetalBunny, your post outlines one of the reasons why I decided to drop Initiative altogether except for rare "precise timing" conflicts.
However that required me to do MASSIVE changes to the way combat is handled. I’m proud to say I succeeded in making a system that is 100% superior in all ways to the basic D&D one. Took me only 20 years ! lol. Benefits :
- Smaller « wall » between encounter mode vs combat mode.
- Faster combats resolution.
- Combat feels less « start-stop-turns » and more smooth and dynamic instead, encouraging quick decision making and actually mastering your PC’s powers.
- Player turns involve more decisions with tradeoffs, instead of being able to always perform at top efficiency possible.
- Instead of long player turns with even longer wait before getting his turn again, round is instead « split » in more numerous smaller « units » that instead target all players together or eachh one in very quick succession. Better players attention, focus, excitement, and engagement.
- Easier to control « analysis-paralysis ».
Nobody rolls Initiative. DEX was already the "god" stat anyway. A few adjustements to powers that affect Initiative.
A round lasts 10 seconds instead of 6. Impacts :
- More « roleplay during combat » allowed.
- Not really a magic nerf : 1 minutes duration effects often end early anyway because of broken Concentration or the target finally makes its Save, and combat rarely last more than 6 rounds.
- Better table ergonomics : I can use big d6s to track Combat Round Number and 1-minute duration effects.
Ergonomicallly speaking, focusing on rolling dice just slow things down in a qquite puerile way : It should be a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. But players love to roll dice anyway while everybody watches them rolling ! Because ego is strong.
So we alternate : before every fight, DM decides if it will be a « resolution with dice » or « resolution with roleplay » fight.
THE COMBAT SEQUENCE :
- STEP 1: "ROUND X" (replacing X with the actual round number)
Increase Round Counter Dice.
DM describes the overall tactical situation, and telegraphs the most easily visible enemy intents. List special terrain effects that start only now, if it wasn’t done in end of previous round step or starts right in round 1
Also describe for alllies not just enemies.
Allow a tiny bit of roleplay.
- STEP 2: "DECLARE INTENT"
In player sitting order around the table, each player describes his entire turn (action + move + bonus + interaction + reaction, if aplicable), in the form of a generic intent declaration.
No handling dice or miniatures here or specifiying specific squares.
Say player’s PC is a level 5 fighter with 3 attacks (a 2 one from Extra Attack, and is preferred way to fight is Two-Weapon Fighting), facing 3 orcs. Then he has to make the more intersting and also more difficult tactical decision of what to attack : focus fire to make sure to down one of them, or spread out his attacks more ?
Note that there is a lot of real-life precent : in medieval battles, combattants quite often took « deathly wounds » yet could take tens of seconds before the « newly deceased » fell down. Or even kept on full-on fighting for several minutes before dying from all the blood loss. You’d be surprised how efficient adrenalin is in removing pain ! Temporarily, at least. So saying that a creature can remain up and running until the end of the current round is NOT an exageration at all. It is rather videogames ruine people’s common sense by making vanquished foes fall flat INSTANTLY on the floor, not even using a falling animation : one moment its up and kicking and the exact millisecond it reaches zero HP WHAM its prone and dead.
Declaring which specific squares you move is allowed if taking the "Careful Movement" Action : Every square cost 1 extra 5 feet of movement, and you get an an Active Perception check to find « big & basic » traps along the path of movement (right before stepping onto them of course).
plaayers are allowed to briefly talk together or outright not respect the table order at all. Say a player is REALLLY wanting to declare what he's going first, just let him. A good DM is not the police he's a facilitator, within a structure sure but not a torturoulsy hard iron maiden type of structure.
- STEP 3: "ROLL DICE"
This step occurs only in a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight.
Since there is already randomness in the to hit roll, AND the players usually don’t know exactly how many HP an enemy has, randonnes sis not really neded on the dammage roll. ALL non-D20 DICE ARE REMOVED. Much less game table clutter! Non-D20 Dice become of a fixed value instead. For Base Weapon Damage, it is the max. For all other dice, including bonus weapon damage dice, it is half of the max. Crits are the total doubled. Yes, ouchie.
The damage is thus directly written on PC sheets right besides their various attacks. Quick and painless !
Everybody rolls all the dice needed for all his stated actions. Since the player can easily not know every applicable detail in advance, it is assumed players ALWAYS need to roll a pair of d20 for each attack, in case Avantage/Disavantage needs to be applied.
All dices are color coded by hue (1st, 2, 3 etc. attacks) and by shading (opaque for the base eice, and more transparennt for the advantage/disadvantagge dice), and are rolled all in one go. No partial rolling allowed : any dice a player « forgot » is treated as being an automatic failure result *(so even if you roll a Nat 20 on your hued opaque first dice, if you forgot to also roll your 2 same-hue transparent dice, and it turns out that you had Disadvantage in that roll, well, that 20 turns into an auto failure anyway).
All players roll all at the same time, then order them in a proper « reading » order. However, no dice results are spoken aloud for now.
DM can also try to do this but when he has many enemies to deal with he will be forgiven to remain functioning in a « resolutioin with dice » type of fight.
Basically, the rules talk about rolls. But here all the rolls are always all rolled all together in a single dicethrow. Forget one roll in your only-one-throw-allowed and it means the misssed rolls are simply failures instead.
Rolling too many dice instead causes no problems. Only the needed dice for a maximum-action round are allowed on the table. After a while player get used to it and react much faster : they simply roll all their dice all at once, end of story.
This system seems hard-fisted but ultimately it help speeding up combat a LOT.
- STEP 4: "ACTION RESOLUTION "
This is split into a small number of « phases ». The exact number is decided by the DM on a round by round basis with the goal of using a small number, but also allow visualizing the combat resolution as clearly as possible. Each Phase thus represent a « fraction » of the entire round’s worth of actions and operatws on the basics that everything in a given Phase happens nearly simultaneously. No « start and stop » effect here !
For example a fighter moves to attack twice, while a monk already in melee attacks 3 times, and a rogue moves and Dashes and then throws a Dagger. Meanwhile the evil baron’s soldiers all charge into melee if they weren’t already. DM might thus split the Round in 3 phases :
Phase A : Fighter Rogue and Soldiers do 1 Move each, Monk does 1st attack. Soldiers that were already in melee at beginning of phase also attack.
Phase B : Fighter 1st attack, Rogue another Move (the dash), Monk 2 attack. Remaining of soldiers attack.
Phase C : Fighter 1nd attack, Rogue throws dagger, Monk 3rd attack, and the soldiers do nothing.
What is important is these :
- It is the DM that moves all the minis around, trying his best to render the player’s previously stated intent as best as possible. For example if the fighter was moving towards a soldier annd the soldier was moving sideways, the DM moves the fighter so that his PC quickly adjusts his direction to match and intercept the soldier. Even INT 2 creatures can easily do such « on the fly » such combat movements adjustments. INT 1 creatures might do it fully, partially, or not at all.
- Non-Elite creatures remain up & running until the end of the current Phase, then fall. Elite creatures remain up & running. Rare exception might occur. For example the paladin has a vorpal sword and lobs his foe’s head off. Obviously, a non-elite enemy could ssimply die instantly without being able to strike back before fallling. Or a PC and an enemy both try to grab the same macguffiin item and then run away. for such « critical timing events », opposed Initiative checks ares used to detemine exact order.
- If it is a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight, the players are invited to use the results of the dice they rollled in the previous step, be they successes or failures, to describe how their actions succeeded or failed.
- If it is a « resolution with dice » type of fight, the players make their, a single dice throw (of all the dice needed for multiple rolls but rolled all together) for each entire Phase. example DM says this round has 2 Phases, and Monk says he moves to then attack 3 times. In Phase A he will move + attack once (2 dice : base atk + the obligatory adv/disad dice). In phase B he will attack twice, rolling four color-coded dice (1st + 2nd atk, and base + advantage/disadvantagge dice foor each atk).
- Since movements can change if an attack is made normally or with modifiers or at all, even within a Phase movement requires some order ». Movement first, then attacks. An enemy is next to you and you want to go ful attack on it ? Why not say « stick to this guy » : if he tries to flee you get the opportunity attack AND your own movement will make you pursue that target automatically.
- DM needs to allow some overall flexibility. Just follow the obviously stated INTENT so that the PC performs « apppropriately ». Not stupidly « oh I sidN’t say I wanted to pursue the evi baron and h3e moved so I lose all my attacks now duuuh ragequits. Assume the Step 2 Declared Inent is a « general » stated intent, and on the fly quick small and OBVIOUS adjustments are allowed. Like trying to make sure the suddenly fleeing target you stated you wanted to kill, stilll receive your attack, and letting the player choose if he pursues or not at that instant. Wasting player actions « because you didn’t fully say so in Declare Intent Step » would be a really big dickhead DM move.
- Still push for all players to roll their throw together, but I got for it in a « subunit » style. Say 4 PCs are in a 2x2 f5rmation and they are sourrounded by 12 3 soldiers, I say to the 3 players : ok roll your first attack guys and I immediately roll my own thtrow for my 12 attacks and then look at thep plaayers :: « what, not finished your throw yet ? I did my 12 goons already ! » I actuallly try two variants "resolution with individual dice" and "resolution with Phase dice". The first variant is even more permisssive: players can do each roll sseparately, not limited to 1 throw per Phase. I find this slow as all heck but hey gotta listen to your players sometimes even the super slowpokes ones that make snails looks like race cars.
- 2 Medium or 1 Large or 3 Small dead creatures in a square turn it into difficult terrain.
- STEP 5: "END OF ROUND X"
All effects counters go up by 1. List effects that end.
New battlefield situations get described, both in terms of terrain and conditions (« suddenly the storm picks up a lot » or « the long row of pillars starts falling, all domino like, one after the other … seems like remaining in that line of pillars could be a very dangerous place to be !).
Also describe new enemy reinforcements, if any.
Marvel Effect and Combat Interruptions :
If something happpens that puts the fight on « pause » like say trying to parley, the fight is put on pause, and if the fight later resumes, itv resumes exactly qhere it was left off.
Think of this like Superman fighting some baddie and there is a 2-pages-splash of Supes knocking thye baddie in the jaw, while around them there are 12 super big and long speech bubbles. It doesn’t take supes 6 seconds to make one punch to thge baddie’s jaw. Yet they talked for like 2 minutes. Just handle it like that : all combat data is fully on pause while the rolpelay bit is handled, but not lost.
Before I did that, players often used « parley » tactics to try to make enemy buffs run out and reposition themselves in a favorable positon, before simply resuming hostilities. Or, similarlly, refused rolep ;lay outright to avoid running tinme4 out on their own buffs. Nope ; if someone interrupts combayt it is 100% for roleplay not to gain a combat advantage. And nobody will avoid doing roleplay for the fear of losing a combat advantage, either. Realistic ? Nope. More fun and fair ? Sure !
After playing like this, our group can't go back to the normal "start-stop-style-one-player-turn-at-a-time" old initiative system.
I'm afraid to open this can of worms, but I have to admit that I'm curious as to how characters intent to react to something that hasn't happened? I assume you must have changed all the D&D spells to fit your system as well?
The reason why this type of intent-based combat seldom works as intended is because players want a certain outcome that is rarely realised and thus feels like a waste of time with a very impotent character.
I noticed that in 5e you don't seem to be able to change your place in the Initiative Order, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I see that you can Ready an Action to do an Action or Move outside your normal initiative, but this also uses your ReAction. I don't see a way to actually change your initiative and this bothers me, because it reduces the ability to act cooperatively as a party. "Yes" the Wizard can hold off on his fireball until the Rogue disengages and moves away, but it doesn't allow for consitent synergy.
Example. I was playing a Paladin with Shield Master and used my Bonus Action to shove a zombie to the ground and attack it. The two weapon wielding fighter got a higher initative so he went. Then I shoved a zombie to the ground. Then the zombies went so he stood up. I couldn't synergize with the fighter. I couldn't knock the zombie to the ground opening him up for the Fighter to capitalize on the situation and double attack with Advantage.
The GM mentioned I could Ready an Action to shove the zombie after it's turn, but that seem insanely lame, because then I'm taking out my damage as a front line fighter out of the equation just to maybe knock them down and maybe give the fighter two attacks with advantage.
Another example would be the Rogue (who is likely to have a higher init) wanting to act after the Fighter, because Sneak Attack needs an ally within 5'.
RAW, that is the correct ruling - once determined, initiative is fixed. Readying actions is the only way to temporarily break that order.
It's worth noting that its cyclical nature means that initiative only matters on Turn 1. If the Rogue takes his first turn to hide and wait for the Fighter to charge in, from that point forward he acts "after" the Fighter. I think people put a lot of imaginary weight on initiative - yes, Turn 1 matters, but there are other considerations to combat. At the end of the day it's just a logistical abstraction of a number of things happening at once.
Remember that the Rogue's sneak attack doesn't need an ally within 5' if he is hidden, which he can do as a bonus action before long, or has some other way of gaining advantage. Scouting ahead and setting up traps is incentivized.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Alot of people modify many rules, and initiative is no exception. As stated, that is the correct interpretation of the rules as written, but there's nothing stating you can't "homebrew" a rule around moving your initiative if your DM/group is ok with it (provided of course, it isn't AL play).
I personally play with the RAW in this case, but I have seen many modifications of initiative which allow you to completely "hold your turn" until you wish to take it, I believe that was allowed in 3.5 (I think it was called Delaying).
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
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You know, there's always side initiative.
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TLDR WARNING LENGTHY POST!!!
FullMetalBunny, your post outlines one of the reasons why I decided to drop Initiative altogether except for rare "precise timing" conflicts.
However that required me to do MASSIVE changes to the way combat is handled. I’m proud to say I succeeded in making a system that is 100% superior in all ways to the basic D&D one. Took me only 20 years ! lol. Benefits :
- Smaller « wall » between encounter mode vs combat mode.
- Faster combats resolution.
- Combat feels less « start-stop-turns » and more smooth and dynamic instead, encouraging quick decision making and actually mastering your PC’s powers.
- Player turns involve more decisions with tradeoffs, instead of being able to always perform at top efficiency possible.
- Instead of long player turns with even longer wait before getting his turn again, round is instead « split » in more numerous smaller « units » that instead target all players together or eachh one in very quick succession. Better players attention, focus, excitement, and engagement.
- Easier to control « analysis-paralysis ».
Nobody rolls Initiative. DEX was already the "god" stat anyway. A few adjustements to powers that affect Initiative.
A round lasts 10 seconds instead of 6. Impacts :
- More « roleplay during combat » allowed.
- Not really a magic nerf : 1 minutes duration effects often end early anyway because of broken Concentration or the target finally makes its Save, and combat rarely last more than 6 rounds.
- Better table ergonomics : I can use big d6s to track Combat Round Number and 1-minute duration effects.
Ergonomicallly speaking, focusing on rolling dice just slow things down in a qquite puerile way : It should be a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. But players love to roll dice anyway while everybody watches them rolling ! Because ego is strong.
So we alternate : before every fight, DM decides if it will be a « resolution with dice » or « resolution with roleplay » fight.
THE COMBAT SEQUENCE :
- STEP 1: "ROUND X" (replacing X with the actual round number)
Increase Round Counter Dice.
DM describes the overall tactical situation, and telegraphs the most easily visible enemy intents. List special terrain effects that start only now, if it wasn’t done in end of previous round step or starts right in round 1
Also describe for alllies not just enemies.
Allow a tiny bit of roleplay.
- STEP 2: "DECLARE INTENT"
In player sitting order around the table, each player describes his entire turn (action + move + bonus + interaction + reaction, if aplicable), in the form of a generic intent declaration.
No handling dice or miniatures here or specifiying specific squares.
Say player’s PC is a level 5 fighter with 3 attacks (a 2 one from Extra Attack, and is preferred way to fight is Two-Weapon Fighting), facing 3 orcs. Then he has to make the more intersting and also more difficult tactical decision of what to attack : focus fire to make sure to down one of them, or spread out his attacks more ?
Note that there is a lot of real-life precent : in medieval battles, combattants quite often took « deathly wounds » yet could take tens of seconds before the « newly deceased » fell down. Or even kept on full-on fighting for several minutes before dying from all the blood loss. You’d be surprised how efficient adrenalin is in removing pain ! Temporarily, at least. So saying that a creature can remain up and running until the end of the current round is NOT an exageration at all. It is rather videogames ruine people’s common sense by making vanquished foes fall flat INSTANTLY on the floor, not even using a falling animation : one moment its up and kicking and the exact millisecond it reaches zero HP WHAM its prone and dead.
Declaring which specific squares you move is allowed if taking the "Careful Movement" Action : Every square cost 1 extra 5 feet of movement, and you get an an Active Perception check to find « big & basic » traps along the path of movement (right before stepping onto them of course).
plaayers are allowed to briefly talk together or outright not respect the table order at all. Say a player is REALLLY wanting to declare what he's going first, just let him. A good DM is not the police he's a facilitator, within a structure sure but not a torturoulsy hard iron maiden type of structure.
- STEP 3: "ROLL DICE"
This step occurs only in a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight.
Since there is already randomness in the to hit roll, AND the players usually don’t know exactly how many HP an enemy has, randonnes sis not really neded on the dammage roll. ALL non-D20 DICE ARE REMOVED. Much less game table clutter! Non-D20 Dice become of a fixed value instead. For Base Weapon Damage, it is the max. For all other dice, including bonus weapon damage dice, it is half of the max. Crits are the total doubled. Yes, ouchie.
The damage is thus directly written on PC sheets right besides their various attacks. Quick and painless !
Everybody rolls all the dice needed for all his stated actions. Since the player can easily not know every applicable detail in advance, it is assumed players ALWAYS need to roll a pair of d20 for each attack, in case Avantage/Disavantage needs to be applied.
All dices are color coded by hue (1st, 2, 3 etc. attacks) and by shading (opaque for the base eice, and more transparennt for the advantage/disadvantagge dice), and are rolled all in one go. No partial rolling allowed : any dice a player « forgot » is treated as being an automatic failure result *(so even if you roll a Nat 20 on your hued opaque first dice, if you forgot to also roll your 2 same-hue transparent dice, and it turns out that you had Disadvantage in that roll, well, that 20 turns into an auto failure anyway).
All players roll all at the same time, then order them in a proper « reading » order. However, no dice results are spoken aloud for now.
DM can also try to do this but when he has many enemies to deal with he will be forgiven to remain functioning in a « resolutioin with dice » type of fight.
Basically, the rules talk about rolls. But here all the rolls are always all rolled all together in a single dice throw. Forget one roll in your only-one-throw-allowed and it means the misssed rolls are simply failures instead.
Rolling too many dice instead causes no problems. Only the needed dice for a maximum-action round are allowed on the table. After a while player get used to it and react much faster : they simply roll all their dice all at once, end of story.
This system seems hard-fisted but ultimately it help speeding up combat a LOT.
- STEP 4: "ACTION RESOLUTION "
This is split into a small number of « phases ». The exact number is decided by the DM on a round by round basis with the goal of using a small number, but also allow visualizing the combat resolution as clearly as possible. Each Phase thus represent a « fraction » of the entire round’s worth of actions and operatws on the basics that everything in a given Phase happens nearly simultaneously. No « start and stop » effect here !
For example a fighter moves to attack twice, while a monk already in melee attacks 3 times, and a rogue moves and Dashes and then throws a Dagger. Meanwhile the evil baron’s soldiers all charge into melee if they weren’t already. DM might thus split the Round in 3 phases :
Phase A : Fighter Rogue and Soldiers do 1 Move each, Monk does 1st attack. Soldiers that were already in melee at beginning of phase also attack.
Phase B : Fighter 1st attack, Rogue another Move (the dash), Monk 2 attack. Remaining of soldiers attack.
Phase C : Fighter 1nd attack, Rogue throws dagger, Monk 3rd attack, and the soldiers do nothing.
What is important is these :
- It is the DM that moves all the minis around, trying his best to render the player’s previously stated intent as best as possible. For example if the fighter was moving towards a soldier annd the soldier was moving sideways, the DM moves the fighter so that his PC quickly adjusts his direction to match and intercept the soldier. Even INT 2 creatures can easily do such « on the fly » such combat movements adjustments. INT 1 creatures might do it fully, partially, or not at all.
- Non-Elite creatures remain up & running until the end of the current Phase, then fall. Elite creatures remain up & running. Rare exception might occur. For example the paladin has a vorpal sword and lobs his foe’s head off. Obviously, a non-elite enemy could ssimply die instantly without being able to strike back before fallling. Or a PC and an enemy both try to grab the same macguffiin item and then run away. for such « critical timing events », opposed Initiative checks ares used to detemine exact order.
- If it is a « resolution with roleplay » type of fight, the players are invited to use the results of the dice they rollled in the previous step, be they successes or failures, to describe how their actions succeeded or failed.
- If it is a « resolution with dice » type of fight, the players make their, a single dice throw (of all the dice needed for multiple rolls but rolled all together) for each entire Phase. example DM says this round has 2 Phases, and Monk says he moves to then attack 3 times. In Phase A he will move + attack once (2 dice : base atk + the obligatory adv/disad dice). In phase B he will attack twice, rolling four color-coded dice (1st + 2nd atk, and base + advantage/disadvantagge dice foor each atk).
- Since movements can change if an attack is made normally or with modifiers or at all, even within a Phase movement requires some order ». Movement first, then attacks. An enemy is next to you and you want to go ful attack on it ? Why not say « stick to this guy » : if he tries to flee you get the opportunity attack AND your own movement will make you pursue that target automatically.
- DM needs to allow some overall flexibility. Just follow the obviously stated INTENT so that the PC performs « apppropriately ». Not stupidly « oh I sidN’t say I wanted to pursue the evi baron and h3e moved so I lose all my attacks now duuuh ragequits. Assume the Step 2 Declared Inent is a « general » stated intent, and on the fly quick small and OBVIOUS adjustments are allowed. Like trying to make sure the suddenly fleeing target you stated you wanted to kill, stilll receive your attack, and letting the player choose if he pursues or not at that instant. Wasting player actions « because you didn’t fully say so in Declare Intent Step » would be a really big dickhead DM move.
- Still push for all players to roll their throw together, but I got for it in a « subunit » style. Say 4 PCs are in a 2x2 f5rmation and they are sourrounded by 12 3 soldiers, I say to the 3 players : ok roll your first attack guys and I immediately roll my own thtrow for my 12 attacks and then look at thep plaayers :: « what, not finished your throw yet ? I did my 12 goons already ! » I actuallly try two variants "resolution with individual dice" and "resolution with Phase dice". The first variant is even more permisssive: players can do each roll sseparately, not limited to 1 throw per Phase. I find this slow as all heck but hey gotta listen to your players sometimes even the super slowpokes ones that make snails looks like race cars.
- 2 Medium or 1 Large or 3 Small dead creatures in a square turn it into difficult terrain.
- STEP 5: "END OF ROUND X"
All effects counters go up by 1. List effects that end.
New battlefield situations get described, both in terms of terrain and conditions (« suddenly the storm picks up a lot » or « the long row of pillars starts falling, all domino like, one after the other … seems like remaining in that line of pillars could be a very dangerous place to be !).
Also describe new enemy reinforcements, if any.
Marvel Effect and Combat Interruptions :
If something happpens that puts the fight on « pause » like say trying to parley, the fight is put on pause, and if the fight later resumes, itv resumes exactly qhere it was left off.
Think of this like Superman fighting some baddie and there is a 2-pages-splash of Supes knocking thye baddie in the jaw, while around them there are 12 super big and long speech bubbles. It doesn’t take supes 6 seconds to make one punch to thge baddie’s jaw. Yet they talked for like 2 minutes. Just handle it like that : all combat data is fully on pause while the rolpelay bit is handled, but not lost.
Before I did that, players often used « parley » tactics to try to make enemy buffs run out and reposition themselves in a favorable positon, before simply resuming hostilities. Or, similarlly, refused rolep ;lay outright to avoid running tinme4 out on their own buffs. Nope ; if someone interrupts combayt it is 100% for roleplay not to gain a combat advantage. And nobody will avoid doing roleplay for the fear of losing a combat advantage, either. Realistic ? Nope. More fun and fair ? Sure !
After playing like this, our group can't go back to the normal "start-stop-style-one-player-turn-at-a-time" old initiative system.
This literally changes the entire game - changes player agency (can’t move your own character), leaves combat order up to the DM (could be good or bad, but leaves it up to their whim), drastically unbalances certain types of attacks (sneak attack max?), changes feat usage (initiative feats useless unless DM takes it info effect), changes metamagic bonus actions, reactions…
At this stage, I’d say throw this up on DMs guild or homebrew site, but as it sits here this is pretty much just a different game entirely and would require so much pre-prep that it would add days to a typical game. Unless your whole table is in for this wild ride, I’d stay away.
Yep. There are many other game systems out there which would fit in with the style of what was described in the TL;DR.
We have houseruled that when initiative is rolled, you have one chance to move your turn to a lower spot in the order if you wish. It doesn't add that much complexity and it really just feels like something you should be able to do.
The only issue we've run into with this (or perhaps you could see it as a strength) is that anyone on an intelligent mount can move their turn to just after their mount, removing the downside of not really being able to control where they will be on their turn.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I like the houserule, but I would argue that any rule that says a mount/creature takes it's turn immediately after or during yours would still do so. Normal controlled mounts share your initiative, so they would shift in the order with you if you decided to shift. This would work though, for uncontrolled mounts, which keep their own initiative. Ultimately, its your houserule, but If I allowed this in my game, I'd place those restrictions on it.
I'd also rule that you can't change your place in the order if you are surprised, and you don't get to know the order that DM controlled enemy creatures are in, so you can only change in relation to your fellow party members
I'm afraid to open this can of worms, but I have to admit that I'm curious as to how characters intent to react to something that hasn't happened? I assume you must have changed all the D&D spells to fit your system as well?
The reason why this type of intent-based combat seldom works as intended is because players want a certain outcome that is rarely realised and thus feels like a waste of time with a very impotent character.