So, Polymorph is a very useful spell to use on allies and enemies alike, but I found a few creatures that it cannot be used directly against. When Tasha's Cauldron of Everything comes out, there will be even more official creatures that this spell cannot be used against.
Any creature that does not have a Challenge Rating or level cannot be targeted by polymorph. There are not many that don't have a Challenge Rating, and monsters on this website are incapable of not having a Challenge Rating. However, in the rulebooks and Unearthed Arcana, there are quite a few creatures without a Challenge Rating or character level, listed below:
Avatars of Death
Steel Defenders
Homunculus Servants
Wildfire Spirits (UA)
Spirits Summoned by the Spirit Summoning Spells (UA)
Beast Master Animal Companions (CFV UA)
I may have missed some others, but those are the main creatures that are immune to Polymorph. True Polymorph also cannot work on these creatures for the purpose of turning them into a different creature.
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Golems and a number of other constructs are immune due to their “immutable form” trait.
Regarding homunculi and steel defenders, while not fully RAW, I would rule that you would use their associated Artificers CR or level when subjecting them to polymorph, or alternately limiting the creatures to CR 0 creatures so as to 100% not exceed their theoretical level or CR
No CR or CR 0 is something that shouldn't be a challenge for a first level party of four but, could be a significant challenge for a single first level character. Many NPCs are a CR 0, many can whoop a first level character. There shouldn't really be a CR 0 when they have implemented a CR as low as 1/8 but, here we are. Being immune to Polymorph due to this technicality might break down the rules, no DM worth their salt would let that stand. If a CR isn't listed, why wouldn't you assume it to be 0(and consider it to be equal to other no CR or CR 0 entries per this website) and just go with that?
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
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Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
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Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR.
It does prevent them from having a single CR to put in the block, because it changes as they grow. If it came up in a game would just assign a rough CR the same way you are instructed to in the DMG when creating a monster and move on. Since Immutable exists and these guys don't have it, I'm pretty sure these aren't intended to have that property.
I guess technically you're right, but it's the kind of right that makes people dislike rules lawyering.
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
But back to the original premise. Polymorph targets "a creature you can see within range". Any creature, even those you list, can meet that criteria, and unless they have a trait that makes them immune to the spell or the spell effect (like "immutable form" for golems and other constructs, or other similar traits), they can be targeted. The rest of the spell tells you how to adjudicate the spell. Again, there is no such thing as a creature with a non-existent CR (regardless of whether its on a statblock, because it can be calculated), so the spell can be adjudicated for any of your examples if you know the other statistics; again, the only reason its not printed is because it's variable; the avatar's HP changes based on the player who it calls against, and the others are class companions whose abilities and stats change as the PC grows. It's not that the CR's don't exist, its that they change, so printing them statically will be incorrect the vast majority of the time.
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
Incorrect. I can prove it, 1) because Challenge Rating is explicitly listed as a statistic in the Monster Manual, 2) because the guidelines on calculating CR are explicitly for creating new monsters, and 3) many entries in the monster manual have CRs that do not match the CR you would calculate if you were to imagine the DMG's guidelines are appropriate for evaluation rather than creation.
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
Incorrect. I can prove it, 1) because Challenge Rating is explicitly listed as a statistic in the Monster Manual, 2) because the guidelines on calculating CR are explicitly for creating new monsters, and 3) many entries in the monster manual have CRs that do not match the CR you would calculate if you were to imagine the DMG's guidelines are appropriate for evaluation rather than creation.
Ok Fine, its a stat...it still exists as a formula and I can calculate it, so I can adjudicate the spell properly. In fact, I don't even have to calculate it in full to do so; I only have to show that it exceeds the requirements of a 0 CR. if it does, I can polymorph it into a 0 CR creature and still meet the requirement of the spell.
But back to the original premise. Polymorph targets "a creature you can see within range". Any creature, even those you list, can meet that criteria, and unless they have a trait that makes them immune to the spell or the spell effect (like "immutable form" for golems and other constructs, or other similar traits), they can be targeted. The rest of the spell tells you how to adjudicate the spell. Again, there is no such thing as a creature with a non-existent CR (regardless of whether its on a statblock, because it can be calculated), so the spell can be adjudicated for any of your examples if you know the other statistics; again, the only reason its not printed is because it's variable; the avatar's HP changes based on the player who it calls against, and the others are class companions whose abilities and stats change as the PC grows. It's not that the CR's don't exist, its that they change, so printing them statically will be incorrect the vast majority of the time.
SagaTympana addressed the first part of your post, so I will address this part.
It targets a creature you can see in range, but it later states that the creature can only be changed into another creature if it has a Challenge Rating or Level. If they don't have that, the spell doesn't work on them. They don't have a CR, if they did, it would be printed. Again, this is like saying "druids can turn into monstrosities! It's just that Wild Shape doesn't say so, you can just infer that it is stated."
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Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
Incorrect. I can prove it, 1) because Challenge Rating is explicitly listed as a statistic in the Monster Manual, 2) because the guidelines on calculating CR are explicitly for creating new monsters, and 3) many entries in the monster manual have CRs that do not match the CR you would calculate if you were to imagine the DMG's guidelines are appropriate for evaluation rather than creation.
Ok Fine, its a stat...it still exists as a formula and I can calculate it, so I can adjudicate the spell properly. In fact, I don't even have to calculate it in full to do so; I only have to show that it exceeds the requirements of a 0 CR. if it does, I can polymorph it into a 0 CR creature and still meet the requirement of the spell.
Sure, but that's homebrew. It's simply not true that everything has a challenge rating. You can assign a CR to something that doesn't have one, and the DMG's guidelines are a decent tool for that, but you're definitely homebrewing at that point. As I said, the Monster Manual often gives CRs that do not match the DMG's guidelines. So what's the CR of such a creature, if we take your view that the DMG's guidelines are RAW? Is it the one you calculate, or is it the one the book defines?
Creatures that don't have a CR are defined not to have a CR. You can override that, of course! But it's homebrew.
Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR.
It does prevent them from having a single CR to put in the block, because it changes as they grow. If it came up in a game would just assign a rough CR the same way you are instructed to in the DMG when creating a monster and move on. Since Immutable exists and these guys don't have it, I'm pretty sure these aren't intended to have that property.
I guess technically you're right, but it's the kind of right that makes people dislike rules lawyering.
There's no rule in the Monster Manual, DMG, or PHB that states that the only creatures immune to Polymorph are creatures with Immutable. They don't have a Challenge Rating, because one isn't written, so the spell doesn't work.
I don't think it's rules lawyering to say "hey, this is a rules quirk you might not be aware of." It's just a weird part of RAW.
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This means you can polymorph a creature into any CR 0 beast.
In D&D a CR 0 does not represent a lack of a challenge rating. Rather it is a challenge rating to indicate minimal / no threat to an average party of 4.
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This means you can polymorph a creature into any CR 0 beast.
In D&D a CR 0 does not represent a lack of a challenge rating. Rather it is a challenge rating to indicate minimal / no threat to an average party of 4.
That's true, but I don't think anyone is arguing that CR 0 and "lack of a challenge rating" are the same thing, haha.
That the specific wording of Polymorph makes creatures that have neither a CR nor class levels (OP gives some examples) ineligible for targeting. I would say they can be targeted, but there's nothing they can by polymorphed into; a distinction without a difference, perhaps.
Iconarising is arguing that even though those creatures are defined as having no CR, they actually do, because the DMG has guidelines for creating new monsters at particular CRs. My response is that the DMG's guidelines are not rules for establishing CRs of existing creatures that are already defined by the rules to have a particular CR or no CR, but that DMs are welcome to use them to houserule a solution to the issue OP brings up.
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
Incorrect. I can prove it, 1) because Challenge Rating is explicitly listed as a statistic in the Monster Manual, 2) because the guidelines on calculating CR are explicitly for creating new monsters, and 3) many entries in the monster manual have CRs that do not match the CR you would calculate if you were to imagine the DMG's guidelines are appropriate for evaluation rather than creation.
Ok Fine, its a stat...it still exists as a formula and I can calculate it, so I can adjudicate the spell properly. In fact, I don't even have to calculate it in full to do so; I only have to show that it exceeds the requirements of a 0 CR. if it does, I can polymorph it into a 0 CR creature and still meet the requirement of the spell.
Sure, but that's homebrew. It's simply not true that everything has a challenge rating. You can assign a CR to something that doesn't have one, and the DMG's guidelines are a decent tool for that, but you're definitely homebrewing at that point. As I said, the Monster Manual often gives CRs that do not match the DMG's guidelines. So what's the CR of such a creature, if we take your view that the DMG's guidelines are RAW? Is it the one you calculate, or is it the one the book defines?
Creatures that don't have a CR are defined not to have a CR. You can override that, of course! But it's homebrew.
I do not think the RAI is at all to exempt creatures with variable stats that preclude a singular CR from polymorph. The CR rule is to establish that you can’t “upgrade” a creature with the spell. Maybe there needs to be an errata or a clarification but it is almost certainly RAI not to exclude these. I would also argue that if assigning a CR is not a valid way to give a creature a CR, then any homebrew creature would be immune to Polymorph. That can’t be the case, so I don’t know why assigning a CR through RAW allowed means doesn’t fit the bill either
That the specific wording of Polymorph makes creatures that have neither a CR nor class levels (OP gives some examples) ineligible for targeting. I would say they can be targeted, but there's nothing they can by polymorphed into; a distinction without a difference, perhaps.
Iconarising is arguing that even though those creatures are defined as having no CR, they actually do, because the DMG has guidelines for creating new monsters at particular CRs. My response is that the DMG's guidelines are not rules for establishing CRs of existing creatures that are already defined by the rules to have a particular CR or no CR, but that DMs are welcome to use them to houserule a solution to the issue OP brings up.
I think that about summarizes the whole thread?
What's the big deal? Just polymorph something else. The question is, can you polymorph something into a CR0 thing.
So, Polymorph is a very useful spell to use on allies and enemies alike, but I found a few creatures that it cannot be used directly against. When Tasha's Cauldron of Everything comes out, there will be even more official creatures that this spell cannot be used against.
Any creature that does not have a Challenge Rating or level cannot be targeted by polymorph. There are not many that don't have a Challenge Rating, and monsters on this website are incapable of not having a Challenge Rating. However, in the rulebooks and Unearthed Arcana, there are quite a few creatures without a Challenge Rating or character level, listed below:
I may have missed some others, but those are the main creatures that are immune to Polymorph. True Polymorph also cannot work on these creatures for the purpose of turning them into a different creature.
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Golems and a number of other constructs are immune due to their “immutable form” trait.
Regarding homunculi and steel defenders, while not fully RAW, I would rule that you would use their associated Artificers CR or level when subjecting them to polymorph, or alternately limiting the creatures to CR 0 creatures so as to 100% not exceed their theoretical level or CR
No CR or CR 0 is something that shouldn't be a challenge for a first level party of four but, could be a significant challenge for a single first level character. Many NPCs are a CR 0, many can whoop a first level character. There shouldn't really be a CR 0 when they have implemented a CR as low as 1/8 but, here we are. Being immune to Polymorph due to this technicality might break down the rules, no DM worth their salt would let that stand. If a CR isn't listed, why wouldn't you assume it to be 0(and consider it to be equal to other no CR or CR 0 entries per this website) and just go with that?
Also, all creatures theoretically have a CR. The examples you posted don’t list one because the creatures strength is variable based on the level of the summoner. But a CR can be calculated using the DMG rules if you really want to be accurate(ish)
Not all creatures have a CR. If they had one, it would be listed in their stat block.
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A CR is not a stat...it is an approximation (a rating) of a creatures toughness, of which the formula for calculating is in the DMG. the examples you give have variable stats that change the CR over time, so if they listed a CR, it would become inaccurate over time. Most creature's stats do not change, so they can list the CR accurately, and do so in the statblock. But all creatures with stats have a calculable CR, even if it isn't printed on the page.
That is not true. That's like saying that a Wizard can cast Cure Wounds, it's just not written in their spell list. If they had a CR, their stat block would say it. Their difficulty does grow over time, but that doesn't make them have a CR. If CR wasn't a stat, it wouldn't be printed in 99% of the creature stat blocks.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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It does prevent them from having a single CR to put in the block, because it changes as they grow. If it came up in a game would just assign a rough CR the same way you are instructed to in the DMG when creating a monster and move on. Since Immutable exists and these guys don't have it, I'm pretty sure these aren't intended to have that property.
I guess technically you're right, but it's the kind of right that makes people dislike rules lawyering.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
CR is a formula. I can prove it, 1) because the way to calculate it is in the DMG, and 2) because given the actual stats of any of those options for a given level of artificer/player, I can calculate a CR.
But back to the original premise. Polymorph targets "a creature you can see within range". Any creature, even those you list, can meet that criteria, and unless they have a trait that makes them immune to the spell or the spell effect (like "immutable form" for golems and other constructs, or other similar traits), they can be targeted. The rest of the spell tells you how to adjudicate the spell. Again, there is no such thing as a creature with a non-existent CR (regardless of whether its on a statblock, because it can be calculated), so the spell can be adjudicated for any of your examples if you know the other statistics; again, the only reason its not printed is because it's variable; the avatar's HP changes based on the player who it calls against, and the others are class companions whose abilities and stats change as the PC grows. It's not that the CR's don't exist, its that they change, so printing them statically will be incorrect the vast majority of the time.
Incorrect. I can prove it, 1) because Challenge Rating is explicitly listed as a statistic in the Monster Manual, 2) because the guidelines on calculating CR are explicitly for creating new monsters, and 3) many entries in the monster manual have CRs that do not match the CR you would calculate if you were to imagine the DMG's guidelines are appropriate for evaluation rather than creation.
Ok Fine, its a stat...it still exists as a formula and I can calculate it, so I can adjudicate the spell properly. In fact, I don't even have to calculate it in full to do so; I only have to show that it exceeds the requirements of a 0 CR. if it does, I can polymorph it into a 0 CR creature and still meet the requirement of the spell.
SagaTympana addressed the first part of your post, so I will address this part.
It targets a creature you can see in range, but it later states that the creature can only be changed into another creature if it has a Challenge Rating or Level. If they don't have that, the spell doesn't work on them. They don't have a CR, if they did, it would be printed. Again, this is like saying "druids can turn into monstrosities! It's just that Wild Shape doesn't say so, you can just infer that it is stated."
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Sure, but that's homebrew. It's simply not true that everything has a challenge rating. You can assign a CR to something that doesn't have one, and the DMG's guidelines are a decent tool for that, but you're definitely homebrewing at that point. As I said, the Monster Manual often gives CRs that do not match the DMG's guidelines. So what's the CR of such a creature, if we take your view that the DMG's guidelines are RAW? Is it the one you calculate, or is it the one the book defines?
Creatures that don't have a CR are defined not to have a CR. You can override that, of course! But it's homebrew.
There's no rule in the Monster Manual, DMG, or PHB that states that the only creatures immune to Polymorph are creatures with Immutable. They don't have a Challenge Rating, because one isn't written, so the spell doesn't work.
I don't think it's rules lawyering to say "hey, this is a rules quirk you might not be aware of." It's just a weird part of RAW.
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CR 0 creatures have a CR 0.
This means you can polymorph a creature into any CR 0 beast.
In D&D a CR 0 does not represent a lack of a challenge rating. Rather it is a challenge rating to indicate minimal / no threat to an average party of 4.
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That's true, but I don't think anyone is arguing that CR 0 and "lack of a challenge rating" are the same thing, haha.
What are they trying to argue?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That the specific wording of Polymorph makes creatures that have neither a CR nor class levels (OP gives some examples) ineligible for targeting. I would say they can be targeted, but there's nothing they can by polymorphed into; a distinction without a difference, perhaps.
Iconarising is arguing that even though those creatures are defined as having no CR, they actually do, because the DMG has guidelines for creating new monsters at particular CRs. My response is that the DMG's guidelines are not rules for establishing CRs of existing creatures that are already defined by the rules to have a particular CR or no CR, but that DMs are welcome to use them to houserule a solution to the issue OP brings up.
I think that about summarizes the whole thread?
I do not think the RAI is at all to exempt creatures with variable stats that preclude a singular CR from polymorph. The CR rule is to establish that you can’t “upgrade” a creature with the spell. Maybe there needs to be an errata or a clarification but it is almost certainly RAI not to exclude these. I would also argue that if assigning a CR is not a valid way to give a creature a CR, then any homebrew creature would be immune to Polymorph. That can’t be the case, so I don’t know why assigning a CR through RAW allowed means doesn’t fit the bill either
What's the big deal? Just polymorph something else. The question is, can you polymorph something into a CR0 thing.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale