The Bladesinger subclass of Wizard, at sixth level, gets an extra attack. There is also the ability to change one of those melee attack rolls to a cantrip instead. Does this work with the fighters multiple attacks? Could I theoretically roll my first attack, cast Booming Blade, and then attack a third time all in one turn?
My understanding of this is that you have both, but you can’t combine them, you just choose which you wanted to use on your turn when you take the attack action.
so in this case, you could take the attack action on a turn and attack three times (using high level fighter EA) then on the next turn take the attack action and attack once and cast a cantrip (using Bladesinger EA), but you can’t attack twice and cast a cantrip using the attack action (since that would combine the two)
My understanding of this is that you have both, but you can’t combine them, you just choose which you wanted to use on your turn when you take the attack action.
so in this case, you could take the attack action on a turn and attack three times (using high level fighter EA) then on the next turn take the attack action and attack once and cast a cantrip (using Bladesinger EA), but you can’t attack twice and cast a cantrip using the attack action (since that would combine the two)
Yea I think that's a fair assessment. I would certainly rule it that way.
I agree with the general idea of choosing, but I do want to point out to the OP that extra attacks from different sources don’t stack (just in case they didn’t realize). So this would only arise after a character was a bladesinger 6/fighter 11.
So is your question: if you had a 6th level bladesinger for example who was also multiclassed as an 11th level fighter (that can make 3 attacks with their attack action) can you then make 3 attacks with the attack action and replace one of those 3 attacks with a cantrip?
Extra Attack (From Bladesinger)
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Extra Attack (From Fighter)
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attackaction on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Honestly you will need to talk to your own DM about it or get an official ruling. I would actually allow it to work at my table. 17 levels is a lot to invest to make this work and at level 17 it’s not unreasonable for what a high level character can do. And you won’t be able to get to the fighters 4x attacks doing this because you don’t have enough levels left. So one extra melee attack beyond what a full bladesinger of the same level could do doesn’t feel overpowered to me. Work it out with your DM. Some may be fine with it, others not.
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Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
Obviously not, the Extra Attack feature only works when you take the attack action: "...whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Did you take the attack action ? No, you took the "cast a spell" action to cast a cantrip. Come on, it's not that complicated, just don't confuse "making an attack" and "taking the attack action".
I'm pretty sure, given the context of the thread, that they're talking about a Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight taking the Attack action, replacing one of the granted attacks with a cantrip, and then using a bonus action to make another attack, but correct me if I'm wrong, scatterbraind.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So is your question: if you had a 6th level bladesinger for example who was also multiclassed as an 11th level fighter (that can make 3 attacks with their attack action) can you then make 3 attacks with the attack action and replace one of those 3 attacks with a cantrip?
Extra Attack (From Bladesinger)
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Extra Attack (From Fighter)
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attackaction on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Honestly you will need to talk to your own DM about it or get an official ruling. I would actually allow it to work at my table. 17 levels is a lot to invest to make this work and at level 17 it’s not unreasonable for what a high level character can do. And you won’t be able to get to the fighters 4x attacks doing this because you don’t have enough levels left. So one extra melee attack beyond what a full bladesinger of the same level could do doesn’t feel overpowered to me. Work it out with your DM. Some may be fine with it, others not.
Remember that Cantrips scale, so a bladesinger at level 6 wielding a longsword one-handed is able to potentially do 1d8 + modifier + 2d10 with say a firebolt cantrip, compared to a fighter at that level that is able to only do 2d8 + 2x the modifier with the same weapon configuration, so the bladesinger ability is inherently better in terms of damage potential.
At level 17, bladesinger would do 4d10 + 1d8 + modifier, compared to the standard fighters 3d8 + (3x)modifier. Allowing these abilities to stack would give you 4d10 + 2d8 + (2x) modifier, so this is even more powerful and very likely out of balance compared to what is already a very powerful ability (Bladesinger extra attack)
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
I'd allow it, since it just requires the casting of a cantrip with your action, rather than for you to use the "cast a spell" action to cast a cantrip. It might not be RAI, but RAW seems permissible.
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
Obviously not, the Extra Attack feature only works when you take the attack action: "...whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Did you take the attack action ? No, you took the "cast a spell" action to cast a cantrip. Come on, it's not that complicated, just don't confuse "making an attack" and "taking the attack action".
Extra attack requires the Attack Action. Bladesinger allows one of those attacks to be the casting of a cantrip. War magic only requires the action and the casting of a cantrip, but it doesn't explicitly require the "Cast a Spell" action, just the action + cantrip, so I'd argue the RAW supports this working. (maybe not the RAI though, since the eldritch knight feature preceded the Bladesinger feature, but in this case I would say it would warrant an errata before I'd rule otherwise)
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
Obviously not, the Extra Attack feature only works when you take the attack action: "...whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Did you take the attack action ? No, you took the "cast a spell" action to cast a cantrip. Come on, it's not that complicated, just don't confuse "making an attack" and "taking the attack action".
I'm pretty sure, given the context of the thread, that they're talking about a Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight taking the Attack action, replacing one of the granted attacks with a cantrip, and then using a bonus action to make another attack, but correct me if I'm wrong, scatterbraind.
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
Just to clarify, it's fairly obvious that "when you use your action to cast a cantrip" is a shortcut for "when you take the cast a spell action and cast a cantrip".
I don't think it's that obvious. I think the writers usually will specify if they mean a rule to reference a specific Action or not.
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A Bladesinger replacing one of their Attack action attacks with a cantrip absolutely has used their action to cast a cantrip - so yes. A Bladesinger / Eldritch Knight could bonus action attack using War Magic.
If War Magic required the use of the [Tooltip Not Found] action it would have said so. All it does say is that you need to have cast a cantrip with your action - and that is satisfied.
when you take your action as an attack action to attack, and use extra attack, and exchange one of these for a cantrip, you are certainly not "using your action to cast a cantrip"
I disagree.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
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A Bladesinger replacing one of their Attack action attacks with a cantrip absolutely has used their action to cast a cantrip - so yes. A Bladesinger / Eldritch Knight could bonus action attack using War Magic.
If War Magic required the use of the Cast a Spell action it would have said so. All it does say is that you need to have cast a cantrip with your action - and that is satisfied.
Take it any way you want, again, when you take your action as an attack action to attack, and use extra attack, and exchange one of these for a cantrip, you are certainly not "using your action to cast a cantrip" (you might be "casting a cantrip as part of your action" but it's fairly different), it's fairly straightforward english, and I'm not alone to have pointed out, it is very certainly the intention. The only thing that I'm saying is that I would certainly not allow it in my campaign.
You absolutely are using your action to cast a cantrip. It’s fairly straightforward English.
You’re welcome to not allow it in your campaign, but the RAW is extremely unambiguous. I wouldn’t be shocked if the intent were different, since the new Bladesinger feature didn’t exist when the Eldritch Knight was written, but until they release an erratum, there’s no way to rationally interpret the text any other way.
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
No, because you didn't use your action to cast a cantrip, you used your action to take the attack action and used one of your attacks to cast a cantrip.
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
No, because you didn't use your action to cast a cantrip, you used your action to take the attack action and used one of your attacks to cast a cantrip.
But they did. They used their action to cast a cantrip. That they also got some attacks in is completely irrelevant. Action spent - cantrip cast in that action. RAW completely satisfied.
The Bladesinger subclass of Wizard, at sixth level, gets an extra attack. There is also the ability to change one of those melee attack rolls to a cantrip instead. Does this work with the fighters multiple attacks? Could I theoretically roll my first attack, cast Booming Blade, and then attack a third time all in one turn?
Pretty sure you have to choose between them.
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I think this is right.
My understanding of this is that you have both, but you can’t combine them, you just choose which you wanted to use on your turn when you take the attack action.
so in this case, you could take the attack action on a turn and attack three times (using high level fighter EA) then on the next turn take the attack action and attack once and cast a cantrip (using Bladesinger EA), but you can’t attack twice and cast a cantrip using the attack action (since that would combine the two)
Yea I think that's a fair assessment. I would certainly rule it that way.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
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I agree with the general idea of choosing, but I do want to point out to the OP that extra attacks from different sources don’t stack (just in case they didn’t realize). So this would only arise after a character was a bladesinger 6/fighter 11.
So is your question: if you had a 6th level bladesinger for example who was also multiclassed as an 11th level fighter (that can make 3 attacks with their attack action) can you then make 3 attacks with the attack action and replace one of those 3 attacks with a cantrip?
Extra Attack (From Bladesinger)
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Extra Attack (From Fighter)
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attackaction on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Honestly you will need to talk to your own DM about it or get an official ruling. I would actually allow it to work at my table. 17 levels is a lot to invest to make this work and at level 17 it’s not unreasonable for what a high level character can do. And you won’t be able to get to the fighters 4x attacks doing this because you don’t have enough levels left. So one extra melee attack beyond what a full bladesinger of the same level could do doesn’t feel overpowered to me. Work it out with your DM. Some may be fine with it, others not.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
How about the interaction with Eldritch Knight?
Technically you've used your action to cast a cantrip... can you make the bonus action attack?
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'd say yes.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm pretty sure, given the context of the thread, that they're talking about a Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight taking the Attack action, replacing one of the granted attacks with a cantrip, and then using a bonus action to make another attack, but correct me if I'm wrong, scatterbraind.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Remember that Cantrips scale, so a bladesinger at level 6 wielding a longsword one-handed is able to potentially do 1d8 + modifier + 2d10 with say a firebolt cantrip, compared to a fighter at that level that is able to only do 2d8 + 2x the modifier with the same weapon configuration, so the bladesinger ability is inherently better in terms of damage potential.
At level 17, bladesinger would do 4d10 + 1d8 + modifier, compared to the standard fighters 3d8 + (3x)modifier. Allowing these abilities to stack would give you 4d10 + 2d8 + (2x) modifier, so this is even more powerful and very likely out of balance compared to what is already a very powerful ability (Bladesinger extra attack)
I'd allow it, since it just requires the casting of a cantrip with your action, rather than for you to use the "cast a spell" action to cast a cantrip. It might not be RAI, but RAW seems permissible.
Extra attack requires the Attack Action. Bladesinger allows one of those attacks to be the casting of a cantrip. War magic only requires the action and the casting of a cantrip, but it doesn't explicitly require the "Cast a Spell" action, just the action + cantrip, so I'd argue the RAW supports this working. (maybe not the RAI though, since the eldritch knight feature preceded the Bladesinger feature, but in this case I would say it would warrant an errata before I'd rule otherwise)
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I don't think it's that obvious. I think the writers usually will specify if they mean a rule to reference a specific Action or not.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
A Bladesinger replacing one of their Attack action attacks with a cantrip absolutely has used their action to cast a cantrip - so yes. A Bladesinger / Eldritch Knight could bonus action attack using War Magic.
If War Magic required the use of the [Tooltip Not Found] action it would have said so. All it does say is that you need to have cast a cantrip with your action - and that is satisfied.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I disagree.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You absolutely are using your action to cast a cantrip. It’s fairly straightforward English.
You’re welcome to not allow it in your campaign, but the RAW is extremely unambiguous. I wouldn’t be shocked if the intent were different, since the new Bladesinger feature didn’t exist when the Eldritch Knight was written, but until they release an erratum, there’s no way to rationally interpret the text any other way.
No, because you didn't use your action to cast a cantrip, you used your action to take the attack action and used one of your attacks to cast a cantrip.
But they did. They used their action to cast a cantrip. That they also got some attacks in is completely irrelevant. Action spent - cantrip cast in that action. RAW completely satisfied.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).