Making templates for Druid Wildshape is like limiting an Illusionist Wizard or an illusion-focused Bard to a template of uses for Silent Image and Major Image. It kills most of the point of spontaneous problem management through resource management that is at the heart of good Druid or Illusionist play. I emphasize the word "play" here. The point of a tabletop RPG, as opposed to an MMORPG or a team shooter game, is so you can do creative things, not just fire a gun or swing a sword or cast Fireball for the umpteenth time. That **** gets stale pretty fast.
I like the idea of there being the option of generic, catch-all beasts for Druids. It's a really overwhelming class, especially for new players... on top of being prepared casters they also need to keep a portfolio full of beast stat blocks at the ready, track their CR, separate them based on whether or not they have a swim speed, etc. I get that can be too much for some players, who might just want to say, "I turn into a lion and maul that guy", without having to look up a Lion's stats.
All that said... I think simplifying Wildshape this much kind of takes some of the fun out of it. It's great when you find a beast stat block with some unique feature that's perfect for some situation you find yourself in. I think I'd prefer they keep the option to turn into actual Monster Manual beasts and just include the option of the generic beasts for those moments where it's not worth the effort of looking something up.
I'd be fine with the "here are some additional generic options for you". The other side of it is...I'm fine with the idea of advanced classes, ones you'd only really take if you're comfortable with the rules and have a firm grasp of the game. Yes, there has to be a large selection of classes for those still learning, but having advanced classes can be a good thing too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
A controlled mount is only a controlled mount whilst you are mounting it, read the section you're talking about
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.
So again, if you do not mount the steed, it is not a controlled mount, because it isn't currently mounted.
I see your argument, but I still disagree. You are referring to the general rule for mounted combat. I see this as a specific rule (redefining when a mount is controlled) that applies to find steed mounts that overrides the general.
A controlled mount is only a controlled mount whilst you are mounting it, read the section you're talking about
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.
So again, if you do not mount the steed, it is not a controlled mount, because it isn't currently mounted.
I see your argument, but I still disagree. You are referring to the general rule for mounted combat. I see this as a specific rule (redefining when a mount is controlled) that applies to find steed mounts that overrides the general.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
A controlled mount is only a controlled mount whilst you are mounting it, read the section you're talking about
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.
So again, if you do not mount the steed, it is not a controlled mount, because it isn't currently mounted.
I see your argument, but I still disagree. You are referring to the general rule for mounted combat. I see this as a specific rule (redefining when a mount is controlled) that applies to find steed mounts that overrides the general.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Either way the wording is lacking enough for a necessary Clarity rewrite.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
I can see Xalthu's argument; the rule effectively says it's a controlled mount, period. It doesn't tell you anything about when that is or is not the case, meaning it must be assumed to always be the case. Whether that's the intention or not is unclear, and it's a terrible way to set out the rules, but it's effectively telling you that it's always a controlled mount whether you're on it or not.
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A controlled mount is only a controlled mount whilst you are mounting it, read the section you're talking about
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.
So again, if you do not mount the steed, it is not a controlled mount, because it isn't currently mounted.
I see your argument, but I still disagree. You are referring to the general rule for mounted combat. I see this as a specific rule (redefining when a mount is controlled) that applies to find steed mounts that overrides the general.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Now you seem to be agreeing that it is controlled. And in that case, we go back to the original point. It doesn't get to be a source of an extra attack, because a controlled mount can only take one of the 3 "D" options -- Dodge, dash, disengage.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Now you seem to be agreeing that it is controlled. And in that case, we go back to the original point. It doesn't get to be a source of an extra attack, because a controlled mount can only take one of the 3 "D" options -- Dodge, dash, disengage.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
I can see Xalthu's argument; the rule effectively says it's a controlled mount, period. It doesn't tell you anything about when that is or is not the case, meaning it must be assumed to always be the case. Whether that's the intention or not is unclear, and it's a terrible way to set out the rules, but it's effectively telling you that it's always a controlled mount whether you're on it or not.
I understand what has caused the confusion, but as per the rules of mounted combat (which it refers back to), it is only while the mount is mounted that it is either a controlled mount or independent mount; if it's not mounted, it's neither. To be pedantic, it says it functions as one, not that it is one, which is I think another part that is tripping people over. A piece of paper functions as a toy if folded up as a airplane but it doesn't mean it is always a toy.
In my opinion, these changes seem to overreact to the overpowered ability that Circle of the Moon had at specific levels, but aren't doing anything to compensate for just how many levels their scaling actually made shapeshift feel fairly redundant in combat. Moon Druid was an underpowered in many ranges as it was overpowered at level 2. And I do feel as though the correction has left it a fairly redundant ability, even for actual Moon Druids to use.
Survivability: The revised Moon Druid has a fairly glaring survivability issue, if we go by RAW. With the reworked Barkskin, Druids do have a source of temporary health. However, it is fairly expensive for any tier of play it will actually be useful in, in my opinion. It's not terrible- but without an innate proficiency in constitution, that concentration saving throw to maintain it will be incredible rough with any of these new Wild Shapes. The ability to cast abjuration spell does very little to offset it, because Moon Druids -already- possessed the ability to heal themselves for a spell slot. It really isn't viable. With such low AC, their HP is not actually worth very much compared to other party members who will be accomplishing more. The elemental resistances aren't terrible, but a lot of them could have been found just by keeping our existing racial abilities.
Fighting Power: At level 10, the staple of your subclass will, at most, be doing 2 1d8's with your wisdom modifier, with an additional 1d6 each from some very mixed damage types. Considering that you have to throw yourself into the thick of combat to use them, with your fairly lacking defensive abilities, this is not an impressive output. While you could increase that damage with concentration spells, this once again requires serious investment to make concentration saving throws viable with almost no AC to provide. And unfortunately, there isn't much advanced tactical play to be have with the current forms. 40 feet of movement isn't bad. But 40 feet of fairly linear, terrestrial movement is not providing much special tactical advantages.
Roleplay Versatility: You can be a sideshow attraction, the famous 'pygmy elephant' but otherwise, the forms do not seem to provide much roleplay potential anymore. In my opinion, Wildshape was one of the best swiss army knives for the creative minds to take very niche abilities, stockpile them, and bring out their fullest potential. In Waterdeep Dragon Heist, I could turn into a rat and ride my own familiar across the city. In Out of the Abyss, I could use a Giant Cave Badger to make tunnels for my party and make use of tremorsense for tons of effects. To me, the loss of this versatility is what stings the most. Even outside of true 5e, turning into a giant badger to burrow behind people is great. It's not the best straight up combat form, but you can do some pretty crazy things with it if you're clever. I just do not feel like these stat blocks provide -any- of that.
Personal Hopes: Scrap or keep these 3 stat blocks. Make a 'scout' block for playing critters. And for every single one of the stat blocks, make optional variations of what you add whenever you transform into them. This circle of the moon idea from a few years ago is a really good representation of an idea I could see, that would give Moon Druid the feeling of flexibility. https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MYdVsvTdvBnBCaPmST3
The elemental abilities, in my mind, are not bad. However, they should be taken a step further, given what ability they're replacing. If we want to offset the trade off of being a full caster with the ability to transform, than allow us to use spell slots for augmentation that isn't JUST healing. I would LOVE to go full Volibear. Storms and lightning, horrifying roars, things of that nature. Even if its weaker than actual spellcasting, I would love it. I would happily burn my out of wild shape resources to make my Wildshaping even more flavorful and cool. Don't just stop at elemental powers either. More bestial augments, more plantish implements, anything really.
Moon Druid should not be the master of melee damage. They should feel Swamp Thing + Animal Man, combining the powers of nature with infinite creative potential to flip conventional strategy upon it's head and throw a wild element into a fight. I want to be able to feel like either a hawk OR an owl, not for a lackluster discount version of both. I want to feel like a charging beast, or a bear, or a resilient turtle. A pack predator like a wolf. I don't feel any of that fantasy within the current mechanics of these forms.
At first, seeing 'Channel Nature' I actually expected that they'd be reducing the significance of Wild Shape itself to the overall class. But they simultaneously nerfed it's abilities, while making it even more integral to all versions of the classes. This might just the bloat of tying the concept of 'all of nature' into a single class, but this really needs to be addressed. Those two different fantasies don't need to contradict or even overpower each other.
The issue I have with Wild Shape - other than the fact that it over-dominates the Druid class and makes it impossible to play a reclusive natural shaman instead of a not-so-closet furry - is that ninety-nine out of a hundred of all the Wide And Diverse Splendiferous Options of R5e Wild Shape are actively terrible. There are maybe - maybe - a dozen Beast stat blocks that are remotely worth turning into, and everything else is just random reflavoring of existing stat blocks exactly the same way the proposed One druid works. Someone wants to turn into a quokka? All right - you're a rat, but you look like a quokka. The same "you're [X] common critter stat block but you're actually whatever crazy thing you said" happens with ninety percent of Earth's small animals. The whole "I turn into a large predator and maul my enemies!" thing is actively disadvantageous. There is no large predator that's worth turning into past, like...level 3. Even Moon Druid only forestalls it for a few levels. And beyond that, R5e Wild Shape has almost no uses worth writing home about. Considering it's supposed to be THE core, critical, crucial thing every single Druid player is specifically playing Druid to do, having it be actively useless in combat outside of a handful of extra sandbagging HP and of strictly limited utility out of combat seems off.
It's like the Primal Companion thing all over again - people were pissed as hell when the Primal Companion rules hit and making the same complaints about homogenizing and lack-of-diversity and Killing Imagination, all conveniently forgetting that there were, like...three "Beast Companions" that were remotely worth taking and exactly none of them were iconic ranger companions. Lions and tigers and bears? All traps. Hawks, eagles, falcons? Wastes of time. Nah - your beast companion should be a flying tree snake so you can abuse Flyby and try to deliver venomous bites! Which is cool exactly once, for one esoteric character concept, then the entire subclass is pointless.
Wild Shape is the same way. There's a minute handful of beast shapes worth bothering with and none of them are the ones a player eager to play to the class concept of the shapeshifting wild nature sorcerer are going to pick. Again - lions and tigers and bears? All traps. Hawks, eagles, falcons? Wastes of time. Turning into an anaconda and squeezing things so your party can somehow hit whatever you're squeezing better even though you're literally wrapped around it? That's the "Good" use of the ability. When the iconic uses of your primary power are all actively terrible, your power is poorly designed.
Is the new version any better? Dunno. Doesn't seem so. Haven't digested the changes yet, but I can see the point people are bringing up concerning the form's weakness. Doesn't make R5e Wild Shape less of an obnoxious freaking failbeer of a power, though.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Now you seem to be agreeing that it is controlled. And in that case, we go back to the original point. It doesn't get to be a source of an extra attack, because a controlled mount can only take one of the 3 "D" options -- Dodge, dash, disengage.
read the part in bold
"The steed is an ally to you and your companions. In combat, it shares your initiative count, and it functions as a controlled mount (as defined in the rules on mounted combat). If you have the Incapacitated condition, it takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you."
It never once says anything about mounting the steed. Rules only do what they say, not what they might imply. Unless you are incapacitated, once combat starts, it is controlled. It might not make sense, and it might not be RAI, but that's what it says. I suppose stuff like that is the whole point of playtesting. (Honestly, it could be intentional as a way of stopping people from sending their horse out to do the fighting, or even just tamp down on the number of creatures in a fight bogging things down, but that's just guessing.)
When I first read this version, I actually thought it was adding clarity, since the existing version says "you fight seamlessly as a unit" which is completely undefined and doesn't really help clarify much as far as if it is controlled or not. Now they are stating clearly that it is controlled, so that much is an upgrade of sorts.
I understand what has caused the confusion, but as per the rules of mounted combat (which it refers back to), it is only while the mount is mounted that it is either a controlled mount or independent mount; if it's not mounted, it's neither.
The rules don't actually state that; under normal circumstances a creature only becomes a controlled mount if you mount it and choose not to let it act independently, but specific always beats general and these are not normal circumstances, this is a creature that you have summoned, for which the rules state it "functions as a controlled mount" with no further qualification. So it's in the controlled mount "state" whether you're on it or not.
If they wanted to phrase the way you're suggesting it should work it would need to say something like "while mounted upon it, the steed functions as a controlled mount", but that's not what they did. This suggests the intent was to use the controlled mount rules at all times, limiting it to only those three actions. That begs the question of why not just say that, but that's why we have playtests; to pick up on weirdly written rules.
This is getting a bit off topic though; it's a badly written rule and people should say so in their feedback. 😉
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If they want to simplify it down so that players and DMs don't need to go looking through the monster manual all the time to look up WS options, then they should do it like Warlock Invocations:
As an action you transform into an animal shape, gaining temporary hit points equal to 3*your druid level (Make it 6* your druid level for Moon druids). While in your animal form:
You size changes to that of the animal: Tiny - Large
You retain your ability scores, class features, proficiencies, and feats, but do not benefit from any racial abilities.
Your Strength and Dexterity Scores are equal to your Wisdom Score.
You can make unarmed strikes using your natural weapons which deal 1d8 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (your choice) - give Moon Druids Extra Attack & magic weapons in their WS
You have natural armour which makes your AC = 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You have darkvision of 60ft
You gain one of the special abilities below of your choice, you choose which ability you gain when you use this feature again (When you reach 9th level of this class you can choose two abilities, at 14th level you can choose 3 abilities):
Animal abilities: Keen Senses - Adv on Perception 10ft Blindsight Spider Climb 10 ft Burrow speed +20ft movement speed 20ft jump distance Proficiency in Stealth Proficiency in Perception A creature hit by your natural weapons become Grappled (they also become restrained if you are level 6 of higher in this class) with an escape DC equal to your spell DC, you can only have one creature grappled at a time. Aerial Acrobat - climbing speed + you can use a reaction when you fall to reduce falling damage you take to 0. Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a STR save vs your spell DC or be knocked prone. Pack Tactics Venom - Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a Con save vs your spell DC or be poisoned until the start of your next turn. Creatures grappling you take 1d6 piercing damage at the start of their turn. (4th level or higher) Breath air or water & 40 ft swim speed (8th level or higher) 60ft fly speed
I would posit that R5e Wild Shape, if people are truly seeing it as almost entirely nothing but a spare HP sink, is not a well designed class feature. People like it because they're used to it, not because it's good. The vast majority of legal beast shapes are 100% crotchless-pants useless, and the existence of R5e Wild Shape also severely inhibits monster design because any Beast of appropriate level must also be designed with the fact that it can be a Wild Shape form first and foremost in the developer's brains.
Perhaps the new version isn't there yet, but I'd caution people against clinging too hard to the R5e version.
If you think people only see it as a HP sink, you didnt understand wild shape as it should be. The beauty of wild shape was its versitality, knowing what to use in every situation. Brown bear for climbing speed and multi attack, dire wolf if you need advantage near an ally, the Deino to charge and Giant toad to separate an enemy in combat with swallow. The new wild shape is just a "You get climbing speed uthen at level 5 one extra attack".
I would rather stay with 5e WIldshape even if they nerf the hp than this horrible attempt of killing the subclass/class feat.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Now you seem to be agreeing that it is controlled. And in that case, we go back to the original point. It doesn't get to be a source of an extra attack, because a controlled mount can only take one of the 3 "D" options -- Dodge, dash, disengage.
read the part in bold
"The steed is an ally to you and your companions. In combat, it shares your initiative count, and it functions as a controlled mount (as defined in the rules on mounted combat). If you have the Incapacitated condition, it takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you."
It never once says anything about mounting the steed. Rules only do what they say, not what they might imply. Unless you are incapacitated, once combat starts, it is controlled. It might not make sense, and it might not be RAI, but that's what it says. I suppose stuff like that is the whole point of playtesting. (Honestly, it could be intentional as a way of stopping people from sending their horse out to do the fighting, or even just tamp down on the number of creatures in a fight bogging things down, but that's just guessing.)
When I first read this version, I actually thought it was adding clarity, since the existing version says "you fight seamlessly as a unit" which is completely undefined and doesn't really help clarify much as far as if it is controlled or not. Now they are stating clearly that it is controlled, so that much is an upgrade of sorts.
Either way the wording is lacking enough for a necessary Clarity rewrite.
I agree. This is absolutely the most correct take. Really, the whole of mounted combat needs some help.
I agree that it could be more clearly written but going by RAW, no it is not a controlled mount, again the rules of mounted combat say you control the mount while mounting it, nothing here overrides it. The word functions is decidedly different to the word 'is'.
function - an activity that is natural to or the purpose of a person or thing.
Now if you were riding the steed while in combat, it would indeed by a controlled mount at that point. But the fundamental point I made was when you are not mounted.
They quadrupled down on druid shapeshifting. I think there's, like, three things in the druid class that don't revolve around shapeshifting.
I think this is a bit of an overreaction. What they did was take the existing limiters of swim speed at 4, fly speed at 8, and throw those in as features along with a few other things that used to (or at least was supposed to) naturally scale by the CR of creatures you could turn into. It's a necessary byproduct of shifting from actual creatures to templates, and since it falls on the levels where a full spellcaster usually gets nothing, it's not really taking up any spots where other features would be.
I see good and bad consequences of the templates. The worst is that these are too generic - a huge part of the fun of wildshape was turning into an animal that had a skill you needed. Be a monkey to climb a wall. Be an owl to see in the dark. Be a horse to give an ally a ride. I think if you're going to do generic templates, you need the ability to add 1-2 customizations. The horse shouldn't be just as proficient at climbing as the monkey, and the monkey shouldn't be able to be as big as a horse.
I think the real purpose of Channel Nature is to provide subclasses that do other stuff besides WS, like Spores or Stars druids now without the clunky "expend a use of Wild Shape." But as mentioned here it would be nice to see the other CN options scale a bit better, cause right now they feel like throwaway placeholders.
I've got to agree with the people saying WS looks pretty useless in combat. You're jumping through a hoop to achieve similar AC, no more HP, and an attack that doesn't seem any better than your cantrips will be at most levels. And locking out tiny creatures until 11 cuts out a lot of out-of-combat potential as well, although I do think spider-scouting is just as busted as any other druid feature at level 2.
Ultimately I think they're struggling with the issue of how you make a full spellcaster viable in melee. If they're as good as a fighter, they have that PLUS a full compliment of spells. If they're more than the tiniest bit worse than a fighter, it simply becomes a bad use of your action compared to just sitting back and casting your spells. I've struggled with this designing homebrew, and I think the best solution is to power these kind of 'Magic' actions with spell slots. A true gish should need to give up some spellpower to go toe-to-toe with martials, and I think most players would willingly make that trade.
If I were designing OneD&D, I'd rework these 'channel' powers to be essentially class-specific spells, powered by spell slots. Higher spell slots spent on Wild Shape would grant additional customizations or options for extra AC, hp, or damage.
The only way I really see the new wildshape working long term is if they introduce some customization options - scoutability: increased stealth and perception; offense: increased damage and to hit; defense: increased HP and AC; Charge, Grapple bonuses, Venom, etc... I could see accessing it along the same lines as a Warlock's Eldritch Invocations... now that would be cool and offer some real versatility and customization, without adding the slog of digging through every beast in the game (and ending up with the 7 same "good" critters no matter what). That ability to customize is one of the most popular things about the Warlock, and part of why each one feels a bit different.
Do I see a complete re-do of a class core mechanic? Not likely, but it would be a straightforward way to do it...
If they want to simplify it down so that players and DMs don't need to go looking through the monster manual all the time to look up WS options, then they should do it like Warlock Invocations:
As an action you transform into an animal shape, gaining temporary hit points equal to 3*your druid level (Make it 6* your druid level for Moon druids). While in your animal form:
You size changes to that of the animal: Tiny - Large
You retain your ability scores, class features, proficiencies, and feats, but do not benefit from any racial abilities.
Your Strength and Dexterity Scores are equal to your Wisdom Score.
You can make unarmed strikes using your natural weapons which deal 1d8 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (your choice) - give Moon Druids Extra Attack & magic weapons in their WS
You have natural armour which makes your AC = 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You have darkvision of 60ft
You gain one of the special abilities below of your choice, you choose which ability you gain when you use this feature again (When you reach 9th level of this class you can choose two abilities, at 14th level you can choose 3 abilities):
Animal abilities: Keen Senses - Adv on Perception 10ft Blindsight Spider Climb 10 ft Burrow speed +20ft movement speed 20ft jump distance Proficiency in Stealth Proficiency in Perception A creature hit by your natural weapons become Grappled (they also become restrained if you are level 6 of higher in this class) with an escape DC equal to your spell DC, you can only have one creature grappled at a time. Aerial Acrobat - climbing speed + you can use a reaction when you fall to reduce falling damage you take to 0. Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a STR save vs your spell DC or be knocked prone. Pack Tactics Venom - Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a Con save vs your spell DC or be poisoned until the start of your next turn. Creatures grappling you take 1d6 piercing damage at the start of their turn. (4th level or higher) Breath air or water & 40 ft swim speed (8th level or higher) 60ft fly speed
Bro I think you are near to hitting the point. They better fire the people that are developing the actual playtest and hire someone like you. Probably would chage the grappling or add a swallow option.
If they want to simplify it down so that players and DMs don't need to go looking through the monster manual all the time to look up WS options, then they should do it like Warlock Invocations:
As an action you transform into an animal shape, gaining temporary hit points equal to 3*your druid level (Make it 6* your druid level for Moon druids). While in your animal form:
You size changes to that of the animal: Tiny - Large
You retain your ability scores, class features, proficiencies, and feats, but do not benefit from any racial abilities.
Your Strength and Dexterity Scores are equal to your Wisdom Score.
You can make unarmed strikes using your natural weapons which deal 1d8 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (your choice) - give Moon Druids Extra Attack & magic weapons in their WS
You have natural armour which makes your AC = 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You have darkvision of 60ft
You gain one of the special abilities below of your choice, you choose which ability you gain when you use this feature again (When you reach 9th level of this class you can choose two abilities, at 14th level you can choose 3 abilities):
Animal abilities: Keen Senses - Adv on Perception 10ft Blindsight Spider Climb 10 ft Burrow speed +20ft movement speed 20ft jump distance Proficiency in Stealth Proficiency in Perception A creature hit by your natural weapons become Grappled (they also become restrained if you are level 6 of higher in this class) with an escape DC equal to your spell DC, you can only have one creature grappled at a time. Aerial Acrobat - climbing speed + you can use a reaction when you fall to reduce falling damage you take to 0. Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a STR save vs your spell DC or be knocked prone. Pack Tactics Venom - Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a Con save vs your spell DC or be poisoned until the start of your next turn. Creatures grappling you take 1d6 piercing damage at the start of their turn. (4th level or higher) Breath air or water & 40 ft swim speed (8th level or higher) 60ft fly speed
I had a similar idea but based it on the astral constructs from 3es psion. Have a list on animal abilities, some level scaled, you custom add them to template add as many as your prof bonus, or heck add 1/2 prof bonus, the moon druid gets prof bonus or something.
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Making templates for Druid Wildshape is like limiting an Illusionist Wizard or an illusion-focused Bard to a template of uses for Silent Image and Major Image. It kills most of the point of spontaneous problem management through resource management that is at the heart of good Druid or Illusionist play. I emphasize the word "play" here. The point of a tabletop RPG, as opposed to an MMORPG or a team shooter game, is so you can do creative things, not just fire a gun or swing a sword or cast Fireball for the umpteenth time. That **** gets stale pretty fast.
I'd be fine with the "here are some additional generic options for you". The other side of it is...I'm fine with the idea of advanced classes, ones you'd only really take if you're comfortable with the rules and have a firm grasp of the game. Yes, there has to be a large selection of classes for those still learning, but having advanced classes can be a good thing too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I see your argument, but I still disagree. You are referring to the general rule for mounted combat. I see this as a specific rule (redefining when a mount is controlled) that applies to find steed mounts that overrides the general.
I think you've misunderstood what the text is saying entirely, it's saying that if you mount the steed in combat, it counts as a controlled mount instead of as an independent mount, despite not having being trained, which is a general requirement for a controlled mount.
Either way the wording is lacking enough for a necessary Clarity rewrite.
I can see Xalthu's argument; the rule effectively says it's a controlled mount, period. It doesn't tell you anything about when that is or is not the case, meaning it must be assumed to always be the case. Whether that's the intention or not is unclear, and it's a terrible way to set out the rules, but it's effectively telling you that it's always a controlled mount whether you're on it or not.
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Now you seem to be agreeing that it is controlled. And in that case, we go back to the original point. It doesn't get to be a source of an extra attack, because a controlled mount can only take one of the 3 "D" options -- Dodge, dash, disengage.
read the part in bold
I understand what has caused the confusion, but as per the rules of mounted combat (which it refers back to), it is only while the mount is mounted that it is either a controlled mount or independent mount; if it's not mounted, it's neither. To be pedantic, it says it functions as one, not that it is one, which is I think another part that is tripping people over. A piece of paper functions as a toy if folded up as a airplane but it doesn't mean it is always a toy.
In my opinion, these changes seem to overreact to the overpowered ability that Circle of the Moon had at specific levels, but aren't doing anything to compensate for just how many levels their scaling actually made shapeshift feel fairly redundant in combat. Moon Druid was an underpowered in many ranges as it was overpowered at level 2. And I do feel as though the correction has left it a fairly redundant ability, even for actual Moon Druids to use.
Survivability: The revised Moon Druid has a fairly glaring survivability issue, if we go by RAW. With the reworked Barkskin, Druids do have a source of temporary health. However, it is fairly expensive for any tier of play it will actually be useful in, in my opinion. It's not terrible- but without an innate proficiency in constitution, that concentration saving throw to maintain it will be incredible rough with any of these new Wild Shapes. The ability to cast abjuration spell does very little to offset it, because Moon Druids -already- possessed the ability to heal themselves for a spell slot. It really isn't viable. With such low AC, their HP is not actually worth very much compared to other party members who will be accomplishing more. The elemental resistances aren't terrible, but a lot of them could have been found just by keeping our existing racial abilities.
Fighting Power: At level 10, the staple of your subclass will, at most, be doing 2 1d8's with your wisdom modifier, with an additional 1d6 each from some very mixed damage types. Considering that you have to throw yourself into the thick of combat to use them, with your fairly lacking defensive abilities, this is not an impressive output. While you could increase that damage with concentration spells, this once again requires serious investment to make concentration saving throws viable with almost no AC to provide. And unfortunately, there isn't much advanced tactical play to be have with the current forms. 40 feet of movement isn't bad. But 40 feet of fairly linear, terrestrial movement is not providing much special tactical advantages.
Roleplay Versatility: You can be a sideshow attraction, the famous 'pygmy elephant' but otherwise, the forms do not seem to provide much roleplay potential anymore. In my opinion, Wildshape was one of the best swiss army knives for the creative minds to take very niche abilities, stockpile them, and bring out their fullest potential. In Waterdeep Dragon Heist, I could turn into a rat and ride my own familiar across the city. In Out of the Abyss, I could use a Giant Cave Badger to make tunnels for my party and make use of tremorsense for tons of effects. To me, the loss of this versatility is what stings the most. Even outside of true 5e, turning into a giant badger to burrow behind people is great. It's not the best straight up combat form, but you can do some pretty crazy things with it if you're clever. I just do not feel like these stat blocks provide -any- of that.
Personal Hopes: Scrap or keep these 3 stat blocks. Make a 'scout' block for playing critters. And for every single one of the stat blocks, make optional variations of what you add whenever you transform into them. This circle of the moon idea from a few years ago is a really good representation of an idea I could see, that would give Moon Druid the feeling of flexibility. https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MYdVsvTdvBnBCaPmST3
The elemental abilities, in my mind, are not bad. However, they should be taken a step further, given what ability they're replacing. If we want to offset the trade off of being a full caster with the ability to transform, than allow us to use spell slots for augmentation that isn't JUST healing. I would LOVE to go full Volibear. Storms and lightning, horrifying roars, things of that nature. Even if its weaker than actual spellcasting, I would love it. I would happily burn my out of wild shape resources to make my Wildshaping even more flavorful and cool. Don't just stop at elemental powers either. More bestial augments, more plantish implements, anything really.
Moon Druid should not be the master of melee damage. They should feel Swamp Thing + Animal Man, combining the powers of nature with infinite creative potential to flip conventional strategy upon it's head and throw a wild element into a fight. I want to be able to feel like either a hawk OR an owl, not for a lackluster discount version of both. I want to feel like a charging beast, or a bear, or a resilient turtle. A pack predator like a wolf. I don't feel any of that fantasy within the current mechanics of these forms.
At first, seeing 'Channel Nature' I actually expected that they'd be reducing the significance of Wild Shape itself to the overall class. But they simultaneously nerfed it's abilities, while making it even more integral to all versions of the classes. This might just the bloat of tying the concept of 'all of nature' into a single class, but this really needs to be addressed. Those two different fantasies don't need to contradict or even overpower each other.
The issue I have with Wild Shape - other than the fact that it over-dominates the Druid class and makes it impossible to play a reclusive natural shaman instead of a not-so-closet furry - is that ninety-nine out of a hundred of all the Wide And Diverse Splendiferous Options of R5e Wild Shape are actively terrible. There are maybe - maybe - a dozen Beast stat blocks that are remotely worth turning into, and everything else is just random reflavoring of existing stat blocks exactly the same way the proposed One druid works. Someone wants to turn into a quokka? All right - you're a rat, but you look like a quokka. The same "you're [X] common critter stat block but you're actually whatever crazy thing you said" happens with ninety percent of Earth's small animals. The whole "I turn into a large predator and maul my enemies!" thing is actively disadvantageous. There is no large predator that's worth turning into past, like...level 3. Even Moon Druid only forestalls it for a few levels. And beyond that, R5e Wild Shape has almost no uses worth writing home about. Considering it's supposed to be THE core, critical, crucial thing every single Druid player is specifically playing Druid to do, having it be actively useless in combat outside of a handful of extra sandbagging HP and of strictly limited utility out of combat seems off.
It's like the Primal Companion thing all over again - people were pissed as hell when the Primal Companion rules hit and making the same complaints about homogenizing and lack-of-diversity and Killing Imagination, all conveniently forgetting that there were, like...three "Beast Companions" that were remotely worth taking and exactly none of them were iconic ranger companions. Lions and tigers and bears? All traps. Hawks, eagles, falcons? Wastes of time. Nah - your beast companion should be a flying tree snake so you can abuse Flyby and try to deliver venomous bites! Which is cool exactly once, for one esoteric character concept, then the entire subclass is pointless.
Wild Shape is the same way. There's a minute handful of beast shapes worth bothering with and none of them are the ones a player eager to play to the class concept of the shapeshifting wild nature sorcerer are going to pick. Again - lions and tigers and bears? All traps. Hawks, eagles, falcons? Wastes of time. Turning into an anaconda and squeezing things so your party can somehow hit whatever you're squeezing better even though you're literally wrapped around it? That's the "Good" use of the ability. When the iconic uses of your primary power are all actively terrible, your power is poorly designed.
Is the new version any better? Dunno. Doesn't seem so. Haven't digested the changes yet, but I can see the point people are bringing up concerning the form's weakness. Doesn't make R5e Wild Shape less of an obnoxious freaking failbeer of a power, though.
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"The steed is an ally to you and your companions. In combat, it shares your initiative count, and it functions as a controlled mount (as defined in the rules on mounted combat). If you have the Incapacitated condition, it takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you."
It never once says anything about mounting the steed. Rules only do what they say, not what they might imply. Unless you are incapacitated, once combat starts, it is controlled. It might not make sense, and it might not be RAI, but that's what it says. I suppose stuff like that is the whole point of playtesting. (Honestly, it could be intentional as a way of stopping people from sending their horse out to do the fighting, or even just tamp down on the number of creatures in a fight bogging things down, but that's just guessing.)
When I first read this version, I actually thought it was adding clarity, since the existing version says "you fight seamlessly as a unit" which is completely undefined and doesn't really help clarify much as far as if it is controlled or not. Now they are stating clearly that it is controlled, so that much is an upgrade of sorts.
I agree. This is absolutely the most correct take. Really, the whole of mounted combat needs some help.
The rules don't actually state that; under normal circumstances a creature only becomes a controlled mount if you mount it and choose not to let it act independently, but specific always beats general and these are not normal circumstances, this is a creature that you have summoned, for which the rules state it "functions as a controlled mount" with no further qualification. So it's in the controlled mount "state" whether you're on it or not.
If they wanted to phrase the way you're suggesting it should work it would need to say something like "while mounted upon it, the steed functions as a controlled mount", but that's not what they did. This suggests the intent was to use the controlled mount rules at all times, limiting it to only those three actions. That begs the question of why not just say that, but that's why we have playtests; to pick up on weirdly written rules.
This is getting a bit off topic though; it's a badly written rule and people should say so in their feedback. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If they want to simplify it down so that players and DMs don't need to go looking through the monster manual all the time to look up WS options, then they should do it like Warlock Invocations:
As an action you transform into an animal shape, gaining temporary hit points equal to 3*your druid level (Make it 6* your druid level for Moon druids).
While in your animal form:
Animal abilities:
Keen Senses - Adv on Perception
10ft Blindsight
Spider Climb
10 ft Burrow speed
+20ft movement speed
20ft jump distance
Proficiency in Stealth
Proficiency in Perception
A creature hit by your natural weapons become Grappled (they also become restrained if you are level 6 of higher in this class) with an escape DC equal to your spell DC, you can only have one creature grappled at a time.
Aerial Acrobat - climbing speed + you can use a reaction when you fall to reduce falling damage you take to 0.
Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a STR save vs your spell DC or be knocked prone.
Pack Tactics
Venom - Once on your turn, a creature hit by your natural weapons must make a Con save vs your spell DC or be poisoned until the start of your next turn.
Creatures grappling you take 1d6 piercing damage at the start of their turn.
(4th level or higher) Breath air or water & 40 ft swim speed
(8th level or higher) 60ft fly speed
If you think people only see it as a HP sink, you didnt understand wild shape as it should be. The beauty of wild shape was its versitality, knowing what to use in every situation. Brown bear for climbing speed and multi attack, dire wolf if you need advantage near an ally, the Deino to charge and Giant toad to separate an enemy in combat with swallow. The new wild shape is just a "You get climbing speed uthen at level 5 one extra attack".
I would rather stay with 5e WIldshape even if they nerf the hp than this horrible attempt of killing the subclass/class feat.
I agree that it could be more clearly written but going by RAW, no it is not a controlled mount, again the rules of mounted combat say you control the mount while mounting it, nothing here overrides it. The word functions is decidedly different to the word 'is'.
function - an activity that is natural to or the purpose of a person or thing.
Now if you were riding the steed while in combat, it would indeed by a controlled mount at that point. But the fundamental point I made was when you are not mounted.
I think this is a bit of an overreaction. What they did was take the existing limiters of swim speed at 4, fly speed at 8, and throw those in as features along with a few other things that used to (or at least was supposed to) naturally scale by the CR of creatures you could turn into. It's a necessary byproduct of shifting from actual creatures to templates, and since it falls on the levels where a full spellcaster usually gets nothing, it's not really taking up any spots where other features would be.
I see good and bad consequences of the templates. The worst is that these are too generic - a huge part of the fun of wildshape was turning into an animal that had a skill you needed. Be a monkey to climb a wall. Be an owl to see in the dark. Be a horse to give an ally a ride. I think if you're going to do generic templates, you need the ability to add 1-2 customizations. The horse shouldn't be just as proficient at climbing as the monkey, and the monkey shouldn't be able to be as big as a horse.
I think the real purpose of Channel Nature is to provide subclasses that do other stuff besides WS, like Spores or Stars druids now without the clunky "expend a use of Wild Shape." But as mentioned here it would be nice to see the other CN options scale a bit better, cause right now they feel like throwaway placeholders.
I've got to agree with the people saying WS looks pretty useless in combat. You're jumping through a hoop to achieve similar AC, no more HP, and an attack that doesn't seem any better than your cantrips will be at most levels. And locking out tiny creatures until 11 cuts out a lot of out-of-combat potential as well, although I do think spider-scouting is just as busted as any other druid feature at level 2.
Ultimately I think they're struggling with the issue of how you make a full spellcaster viable in melee. If they're as good as a fighter, they have that PLUS a full compliment of spells. If they're more than the tiniest bit worse than a fighter, it simply becomes a bad use of your action compared to just sitting back and casting your spells. I've struggled with this designing homebrew, and I think the best solution is to power these kind of 'Magic' actions with spell slots. A true gish should need to give up some spellpower to go toe-to-toe with martials, and I think most players would willingly make that trade.
If I were designing OneD&D, I'd rework these 'channel' powers to be essentially class-specific spells, powered by spell slots. Higher spell slots spent on Wild Shape would grant additional customizations or options for extra AC, hp, or damage.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The only way I really see the new wildshape working long term is if they introduce some customization options - scoutability: increased stealth and perception; offense: increased damage and to hit; defense: increased HP and AC; Charge, Grapple bonuses, Venom, etc... I could see accessing it along the same lines as a Warlock's Eldritch Invocations... now that would be cool and offer some real versatility and customization, without adding the slog of digging through every beast in the game (and ending up with the 7 same "good" critters no matter what). That ability to customize is one of the most popular things about the Warlock, and part of why each one feels a bit different.
Do I see a complete re-do of a class core mechanic? Not likely, but it would be a straightforward way to do it...
Bro I think you are near to hitting the point. They better fire the people that are developing the actual playtest and hire someone like you. Probably would chage the grappling or add a swallow option.
I had a similar idea but based it on the astral constructs from 3es psion. Have a list on animal abilities, some level scaled, you custom add them to template add as many as your prof bonus, or heck add 1/2 prof bonus, the moon druid gets prof bonus or something.