Yes, easier prone (and push, and free disengage AND dash) built in to the attack you'll almost always be making anyway, all for 1 DP, is worth a subclass. You don't have to agree.
Regarding Shadow, you move it at the start of your turn. It has the potential to be very useful for you, but it also has the potential to get in your party's way, especially if the enemy gets to move after you and before they do.
getting a lesser version of everyone else's level 1 ability is not worth a whole subclass. This would be like a new caster is made who gets no cantrips, get a lvl 3 subclass that gives them one cantrip.
and its a fitting analogy because Crawford has literally described mastery as cantrips for martials.
this has always been a problem for monk, they act like giving monk a flavored version of a basic feature is giving it power. /class budget
Unarmored defense is just similar AC to every other martial class but with more limitations
Unarmed Attack Martial die is just similar access to weapons die with flavor of unarmed but with more limitations
in 5e unarmed attack on BA is just two weapon fighting
now we have open hand identity is just reflavored mastery, but with more limitations.
it needs to be more unique than weapon mastery, or better, or its a slap in the face. They took the identity of openhand, expanded it, gave it to everyone else as a level 1 ability, and the monk is supposed to be hyped to get it kinda for a subclass?
If you still can't grasp that Dex is a better save to target than Con, that 15ft > 10ft, that no size restriction is better than a size restriction, or that there is no weapon property that turns off opportunity attacks without a save or that does all of the above, there's really nothing left for us to discuss. See you in the survey.
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
Is there a change, or is this an alternative suggestion? Monks don't count Finesse, they count Martial weapons with Light. And yes I agree that whips should be a Monk weapon.
On a related note, I think that Monks should also have access to blowguns.
Ah, nope, you’re right, for some reason I misread Light as Finesse. Probably because it was so close to what I had put into my feedback (which was light and finesse).
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
Is there a change, or is this an alternative suggestion? Monks don't count Finesse, they count Martial weapons with Light. And yes I agree that whips should be a Monk weapon.
On a related note, I think that Monks should also have access to blowguns.
Ah, nope, you’re right, for some reason I misread Light as Finesse. Probably because it was so close to what I had put into my feedback (which was light and finesse).
i too misread a document somewhere and though it was light at first.
its a shame, i could see the whip as representing the sickle and chain martial art fantasy, and it would actually be a weapon with unique functionality. Basically for monk weapons just break down into thrown, ranged, and everything else. would be nice to have a reach option, especially if it worked with dual wield
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
Is there a change, or is this an alternative suggestion? Monks don't count Finesse, they count Martial weapons with Light. And yes I agree that whips should be a Monk weapon.
On a related note, I think that Monks should also have access to blowguns.
Ah, nope, you’re right, for some reason I misread Light as Finesse. Probably because it was so close to what I had put into my feedback (which was light and finesse).
i too misread a document somewhere and though it was light at first.
its a shame, i could see the whip as representing the sickle and chain martial art fantasy, and it would actually be a weapon with unique functionality. Basically for monk weapons just break down into thrown, ranged, and everything else. would be nice to have a reach option, especially if it worked with dual wield
Ah fudge, my hopes were up for a second that I had misunderstood.
Yea, i hope we dont have to play with that OH monk for the next 5-10 years, but, we probably will.
Yes, they have had two UAs to overhaul OH and they did basically nothing in each one. I would say it is safe to assume there will be no major changes to OH.
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
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Eh, the core Monk is meant to facilitate the traditional unarmed or simply armed warrior image first, and the ninja image a distant second. Plus most of the appeal from things like a rope dart or kyoketsu-shoge comes from being able to do fancy trick moves, which is not supported even with Weapon Masteries.
Eh, the core Monk is meant to facilitate the traditional unarmed or simply armed warrior image first, and the ninja image a distant second. Plus most of the appeal from things like a rope dart or kyoketsu-shoge comes from being able to do fancy trick moves, which is not supported even with Weapon Masteries.
Sorry but what? There is literally a subclass that is 100% inspired by ninjas (Shadow) and another that is completely dedicated to using weapons (Kensei) which is 1/3 subclasses being archetypes that use weapons.
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
Coming back to this forum to say I've changed my mind about the new monk. I love it. I would love to see how it could be improved but if they print this version, I will be very happy
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
the only thing open hand is bringing to that equation is topple, the shadow monk gets the same advantages of topple and addle there disadvantage/advantage and no opportunity attacks. Elements can do the same thing with weapon master. except with 10 foot reach and pull as well as push. 5foot push has the same effect as addle. Addle is just bad, as it currently stands.
and the fleet application only comes into play at 11.
the idea of being able to push and manipulate enemies is nice, but its kind of ridiclous to remove the functionality every martial has baseline, then return it at a cost as your main feature until level 11.
the idea you have is good, but it should be better. It should stand out as somehow being better at manipulating enemies or taking advantage of that manipulation, than other subclasses can do, and even other baseline martial classes. In your example, feats, and baseline monk are doing most of the heavy lifting.
My issue isnt with the fantasy or flavor. The question is is the sub good enough/unique enough to be worthwhile before the adventure/module ends.
Eh, the core Monk is meant to facilitate the traditional unarmed or simply armed warrior image first, and the ninja image a distant second. Plus most of the appeal from things like a rope dart or kyoketsu-shoge comes from being able to do fancy trick moves, which is not supported even with Weapon Masteries.
Sorry but what? There is literally a subclass that is 100% inspired by ninjas (Shadow) and another that is completely dedicated to using weapons (Kensei) which is 1/3 subclasses being archetypes that use weapons.
That actually proves my point; they have subclasses that specifically facilitate those subtypes because they're not the primary focus of the core class.
I think it's telling that when you see a lot of folks talking about how the new Monk is great or "fixed", it's in the context of weird janky combos that require specific feats to do things that sound either largely impractical in actual play or just overpowered, and would melt through Discipline Points in a single battle.
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
...Care to elaborate? 2014 OH would be awful at this. They'd absolutely need Skill Expert to offset their terrible strength, every grapple attempt they made would be giving up damage, they'd have to spend ki to disengage AND they couldn't dash at the same time... and I haven't even gotten to the order of operations or fewer attacks issues.
Unless you're trying to say the 2014 OH should run into the middle of the enemy and grapple without trying to skirmish at all, in which case, pull the other one.
I think it's telling that when you see a lot of folks talking about how the new Monk is great or "fixed", it's in the context of weird janky combos that require specific feats to do things that sound either largely impractical in actual play or just overpowered, and would melt through Discipline Points in a single battle.
What "weird janky combo?" Run in, flurry, and run out is 1 DP. The same DP you'd already be spending! It's not differential calculus 🤨
I think it's telling that when you see a lot of folks talking about how the new Monk is great or "fixed", it's in the context of weird janky combos that require specific feats to do things that sound either largely impractical in actual play or just overpowered, and would melt through Discipline Points in a single battle.
What "weird janky combo?" Run in, flurry, and run out is 1 DP. The same DP you'd already be spending! It's not differential calculus 🤨
I'm talking about stuff like the aforementioned "run past a crowd of enemies, topple/grapple an enemy, then drag them around/upwards via a specific feat". It's not the only instance of this I've seen - how getting Weapon Mastery via feat/dip makes a Monk much more powerful in damage and control than a Monk without it, the idea of baiting opportunity attacks to use Deflect Attacks' counter, spamming Dodge as an action while attacking only with the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows.
Not only would a lot of these ideas eat through Discipline Points, but they also sound largely impractical given that they'd rely heavily on random rolls and enemies being set up and reacting as expected.
I'm talking about stuff like the aforementioned "run past a crowd of enemies, topple/grapple an enemy, then drag them around/upwards via a specific feat".
Oh wow, taking Grappler on a build aimed at grappling - what a wacky and specific feat!
It's not the only instance of this I've seen - how getting Weapon Mastery via feat/dip makes a Monk much more powerful in damage and control than a Monk without it, the idea of baiting opportunity attacks to use Deflect Attacks' counter, spamming Dodge as an action while attacking only with the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows.
Not only would a lot of these ideas eat through Discipline Points, but they also sound largely impractical given that they'd rely heavily on random rolls and enemies being set up and reacting as expected.
1) "Eat through?" Literally none of this costs any Discipline except the flurry bit you put at the end. You can deflect an OA without DP just fine too.
2) All these feats (Grappler and WM) are doing is just adding more damage to the thing OH can natively do. Which is, you know, exactly what feats are for. You don't need any of them.
I'm talking about stuff like the aforementioned "run past a crowd of enemies, topple/grapple an enemy, then drag them around/upwards via a specific feat".
Oh wow, taking Grappler on a build aimed at grappling - what a wacky and specific feat!
It's not the only instance of this I've seen - how getting Weapon Mastery via feat/dip makes a Monk much more powerful in damage and control than a Monk without it, the idea of baiting opportunity attacks to use Deflect Attacks' counter, spamming Dodge as an action while attacking only with the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows.
Not only would a lot of these ideas eat through Discipline Points, but they also sound largely impractical given that they'd rely heavily on random rolls and enemies being set up and reacting as expected.
1) "Eat through?" Literally none of this costs any Discipline except the flurry bit you put at the end. You can deflect an OA without DP just fine too.
2) All these feats (Grappler and WM) are doing is just adding more damage to the thing OH can natively do. Which is, you know, exactly what feats are for. You don't need any of them.
the person said it was just one example, their other cases represent burning through ki. in one combat. this case probably refers to an oddly specific set up where you rely on rolls.
As in, you need the situation to have one caster/mage with no one who triggers op attacks on the way, conviently near to another guy, then you make two topple saves in exactly two hits (unlikely) and the enemy fails at least one grapple save. and all of this needs to be conviently close enough that sling this only requires your regular movement to reach the enemies, but far enough that the dash from fleet step is the only way you get close enough for your party to take advantage of their down state.
they also throw in an addle use there, that couldn't happen and still do all the things they said, without using an action.
but I'm not gonna hold it against the poster, the concept was clearly just supposed to represent a rough idealized concept to represent I can go far and knock some people around.
my problem with it, most of it has little to do with open hand's unique ability. grappler is something any one can do, carrying two guys is something anyone can do. topple is available to every other martial, and something other monks can get via weapon master. Elements can topple and do damage just by pulling into the air.
(though to be honest the big problem with the two guy grapple monk concept is none of them have the str to carry two guys. carry weight is 15*your str score. the monk is lucky to have 10 str after dex and wis. if one guy weighs 150lbs you are instantly over weight, at which point your speed becomes 5,)
the big OH deal in this scenario they can run farther while still using FOB.
which is why I don't love fleet even though its not bad. The most outstanding feature is not really thematic of a barefisted monk. It could have been thrown on any monk. It would be fine if something else was more defining for the subclass, but there isnt one. it could also be interesting if you could step OR patient, but people might find that too good. (though that excites me)
"Anyone else can do it" is kind of the recurring theme of the One D&D Monk.
As someone who played the class a lot, I never had a problem with Monks because I didn't play them the same way I'd play a Fighter. Their niche was that of the support martial, with control options other classes lacked. Playing them as a skirmisher was simple, because the answer to that was to not need a Disengage. Either subclass options for Flurry of Blows, or using thrown weapons or a shortbow when I needed to hit-and-run.
The dismaying thing about One D&D Monks is that not only are they not getting any new control options when other classes are getting various new toys in that regard, many of the subclasses are having options stripped from them. Shadow Monk is now only about casting Darkness, no Silence or Pass Without Trace. Elements Monk gets fairly generic features that blend together Astral Self and Sun Soul (without any of Astral Self's utility features). They've even lost Tongue of the Sun and Moon, a feature I've made use of in campaigns. I genuinely dread to think of what might happen to the Mercy subclass.
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getting a lesser version of everyone else's level 1 ability is not worth a whole subclass. This would be like a new caster is made who gets no cantrips, get a lvl 3 subclass that gives them one cantrip.
and its a fitting analogy because Crawford has literally described mastery as cantrips for martials.
this has always been a problem for monk, they act like giving monk a flavored version of a basic feature is giving it power. /class budget
Unarmored defense is just similar AC to every other martial class but with more limitations
Unarmed Attack Martial die is just similar access to weapons die with flavor of unarmed but with more limitations
in 5e unarmed attack on BA is just two weapon fighting
now we have open hand identity is just reflavored mastery, but with more limitations.
it needs to be more unique than weapon mastery, or better, or its a slap in the face. They took the identity of openhand, expanded it, gave it to everyone else as a level 1 ability, and the monk is supposed to be hyped to get it kinda for a subclass?
not good enough
If you still can't grasp that Dex is a better save to target than Con, that 15ft > 10ft, that no size restriction is better than a size restriction, or that there is no weapon property that turns off opportunity attacks without a save or that does all of the above, there's really nothing left for us to discuss. See you in the survey.
Yea, i hope we dont have to play with that OH monk for the next 5-10 years, but, we probably will.
Ah, nope, you’re right, for some reason I misread Light as Finesse. Probably because it was so close to what I had put into my feedback (which was light and finesse).
i too misread a document somewhere and though it was light at first.
its a shame, i could see the whip as representing the sickle and chain martial art fantasy, and it would actually be a weapon with unique functionality. Basically for monk weapons just break down into thrown, ranged, and everything else. would be nice to have a reach option, especially if it worked with dual wield
Ah fudge, my hopes were up for a second that I had misunderstood.
Yes, they have had two UAs to overhaul OH and they did basically nothing in each one. I would say it is safe to assume there will be no major changes to OH.
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ModeratorPersonally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
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Eh, the core Monk is meant to facilitate the traditional unarmed or simply armed warrior image first, and the ninja image a distant second. Plus most of the appeal from things like a rope dart or kyoketsu-shoge comes from being able to do fancy trick moves, which is not supported even with Weapon Masteries.
Sorry but what? There is literally a subclass that is 100% inspired by ninjas (Shadow) and another that is completely dedicated to using weapons (Kensei) which is 1/3 subclasses being archetypes that use weapons.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
Coming back to this forum to say I've changed my mind about the new monk. I love it. I would love to see how it could be improved but if they print this version, I will be very happy
the only thing open hand is bringing to that equation is topple, the shadow monk gets the same advantages of topple and addle there disadvantage/advantage and no opportunity attacks. Elements can do the same thing with weapon master. except with 10 foot reach and pull as well as push. 5foot push has the same effect as addle. Addle is just bad, as it currently stands.
and the fleet application only comes into play at 11.
the idea of being able to push and manipulate enemies is nice, but its kind of ridiclous to remove the functionality every martial has baseline, then return it at a cost as your main feature until level 11.
the idea you have is good, but it should be better. It should stand out as somehow being better at manipulating enemies or taking advantage of that manipulation, than other subclasses can do, and even other baseline martial classes. In your example, feats, and baseline monk are doing most of the heavy lifting.
My issue isnt with the fantasy or flavor. The question is is the sub good enough/unique enough to be worthwhile before the adventure/module ends.
That actually proves my point; they have subclasses that specifically facilitate those subtypes because they're not the primary focus of the core class.
I think it's telling that when you see a lot of folks talking about how the new Monk is great or "fixed", it's in the context of weird janky combos that require specific feats to do things that sound either largely impractical in actual play or just overpowered, and would melt through Discipline Points in a single battle.
...Care to elaborate? 2014 OH would be awful at this. They'd absolutely need Skill Expert to offset their terrible strength, every grapple attempt they made would be giving up damage, they'd have to spend ki to disengage AND they couldn't dash at the same time... and I haven't even gotten to the order of operations or fewer attacks issues.
Unless you're trying to say the 2014 OH should run into the middle of the enemy and grapple without trying to skirmish at all, in which case, pull the other one.
What "weird janky combo?" Run in, flurry, and run out is 1 DP. The same DP you'd already be spending! It's not differential calculus 🤨
I'm talking about stuff like the aforementioned "run past a crowd of enemies, topple/grapple an enemy, then drag them around/upwards via a specific feat". It's not the only instance of this I've seen - how getting Weapon Mastery via feat/dip makes a Monk much more powerful in damage and control than a Monk without it, the idea of baiting opportunity attacks to use Deflect Attacks' counter, spamming Dodge as an action while attacking only with the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows.
Not only would a lot of these ideas eat through Discipline Points, but they also sound largely impractical given that they'd rely heavily on random rolls and enemies being set up and reacting as expected.
Oh wow, taking Grappler on a build aimed at grappling - what a wacky and specific feat!
1) "Eat through?" Literally none of this costs any Discipline except the flurry bit you put at the end. You can deflect an OA without DP just fine too.
2) All these feats (Grappler and WM) are doing is just adding more damage to the thing OH can natively do. Which is, you know, exactly what feats are for. You don't need any of them.
the person said it was just one example, their other cases represent burning through ki. in one combat. this case probably refers to an oddly specific set up where you rely on rolls.
As in, you need the situation to have one caster/mage with no one who triggers op attacks on the way, conviently near to another guy, then you make two topple saves in exactly two hits (unlikely) and the enemy fails at least one grapple save. and all of this needs to be conviently close enough that sling this only requires your regular movement to reach the enemies, but far enough that the dash from fleet step is the only way you get close enough for your party to take advantage of their down state.
they also throw in an addle use there, that couldn't happen and still do all the things they said, without using an action.
but I'm not gonna hold it against the poster, the concept was clearly just supposed to represent a rough idealized concept to represent I can go far and knock some people around.
my problem with it, most of it has little to do with open hand's unique ability. grappler is something any one can do, carrying two guys is something anyone can do. topple is available to every other martial, and something other monks can get via weapon master. Elements can topple and do damage just by pulling into the air.
(though to be honest the big problem with the two guy grapple monk concept is none of them have the str to carry two guys. carry weight is 15*your str score. the monk is lucky to have 10 str after dex and wis. if one guy weighs 150lbs you are instantly over weight, at which point your speed becomes 5,)
the big OH deal in this scenario they can run farther while still using FOB.
which is why I don't love fleet even though its not bad. The most outstanding feature is not really thematic of a barefisted monk. It could have been thrown on any monk. It would be fine if something else was more defining for the subclass, but there isnt one. it could also be interesting if you could step OR patient, but people might find that too good. (though that excites me)
"Anyone else can do it" is kind of the recurring theme of the One D&D Monk.
As someone who played the class a lot, I never had a problem with Monks because I didn't play them the same way I'd play a Fighter. Their niche was that of the support martial, with control options other classes lacked. Playing them as a skirmisher was simple, because the answer to that was to not need a Disengage. Either subclass options for Flurry of Blows, or using thrown weapons or a shortbow when I needed to hit-and-run.
The dismaying thing about One D&D Monks is that not only are they not getting any new control options when other classes are getting various new toys in that regard, many of the subclasses are having options stripped from them. Shadow Monk is now only about casting Darkness, no Silence or Pass Without Trace. Elements Monk gets fairly generic features that blend together Astral Self and Sun Soul (without any of Astral Self's utility features). They've even lost Tongue of the Sun and Moon, a feature I've made use of in campaigns. I genuinely dread to think of what might happen to the Mercy subclass.