"Anyone else can do it" is kind of the recurring theme of the One D&D Monk.
As someone who played the class a lot, I never had a problem with Monks because I didn't play them the same way I'd play a Fighter. Their niche was that of the support martial, with control options other classes lacked. Playing them as a skirmisher was simple, because the answer to that was to not need a Disengage. Either subclass options for Flurry of Blows, or using thrown weapons or a shortbow when I needed to hit-and-run.
The dismaying thing about One D&D Monks is that not only are they not getting any new control options when other classes are getting various new toys in that regard, many of the subclasses are having options stripped from them. Shadow Monk is now only about casting Darkness, no Silence or Pass Without Trace. Elements Monk gets fairly generic features that blend together Astral Self and Sun Soul (without any of Astral Self's utility features). They've even lost Tongue of the Sun and Moon, a feature I've made use of in campaigns. I genuinely dread to think of what might happen to the Mercy subclass.
I know this can be hard to hear, but the problem with previous Monks is that they did the things other classes could do, but much worse. Not just worse vs casters, but often worse than unoptimized martials while the Monk is fully optimized. You talk about Tongue of the Sun and Moon - that's a nice ribbon feature but Comprehend Languages is a 1st level Ritual and there are many other magical and nonmagical ways to solve language barriers in D&D that are available long before 13th level. Monk didn't have any class-wide damage scaling after 5th level besides the Martial Arts die - capped at a mere d10 at level 17 while every other martial-adjacent class could carry a versatile weapon for a d10 at level 1.
It wasn't that playing Monks as a Fighter was a bad idea. It was that if the Fighter chose to play as a Monk, they could do the job almost as well as the Monk could and still be an effective fighter. Any Martial class could do about as well as the Monk with the right subclass selection. Many of them could do the things that the Monk supposedly excelled at better than the Monk. And this became most apparent in combat, where the class feature mechanics of the game were most prominent.
Monks in 2014 are designed to be thematic. But the mechanics of being a Monk in 2014 are terrible. You talk about Shadow Monks losing some of their options - but they made use of those features no better than the other classes who could get them like Rangers, Wizards, Druids and Warlocks. And they'd often have to expend a significant portion of their class resources PLUS their action economy to successfully cast a 2nd level spell which could never be upcast and which needed to remain viable for the next 17 levels of play. ODD Monks might lose some features in their classes and subclasses, but those losses are made up for by gaining new features that are actually appropriate for higher levels. The ability to cast Darkness and see your targets within the affected area. Features like the ability to teleport into a surprise attack with or without shadows. Features like the ability to Dash for free whenever you use your Bonus Action. Features like the ability to gain a Fly speed as a bonus action.
You're worried about Mercy, and so am I. But I'm worried because I suspect that as the previously mechanically best Monk class that's received no UA playtest material it's not going to receive any updates to compete with the vastly improved new subclasses. But even then, it will benefit greatly from the mechanical improvements to the core Monk class. It's going to hit harder. It's going to heal better. It will suffer no downsides or negatives, except that it will now feel a little underwhelming. And if an unchanged Way of Mercy Monk is the new low bar for Monks going forward, that's going to be an amazing improvement for everybody.
If you still can't grasp that Dex is a better save to target than Con, that 15ft > 10ft, that no size restriction is better than a size restriction, or that there is no weapon property that turns off opportunity attacks without a save or that does all of the above, there's really nothing left for us to discuss. See you in the survey.
I think what Gwar1 is kind of getting at is if they gave all martials in 1D&D, a Rage feature (without rage damage modifier) but left Barbarian with Rage + Rage damage modifier. (Edit: Oh, and add a feat that non-martials can pick up to also get a Rage feature)
What they did with Barbarians Reckless Attack/Brutal Strike is what they need to do for Open Hand Technique.
I really like the monk changes, but I do feel Open Hand could use OHT to be expanded.
"Anyone else can do it" is kind of the recurring theme of the One D&D Monk.
As someone who played the class a lot, I never had a problem with Monks because I didn't play them the same way I'd play a Fighter. Their niche was that of the support martial, with control options other classes lacked. Playing them as a skirmisher was simple, because the answer to that was to not need a Disengage. Either subclass options for Flurry of Blows, or using thrown weapons or a shortbow when I needed to hit-and-run.
The dismaying thing about One D&D Monks is that not only are they not getting any new control options when other classes are getting various new toys in that regard, many of the subclasses are having options stripped from them. Shadow Monk is now only about casting Darkness, no Silence or Pass Without Trace. Elements Monk gets fairly generic features that blend together Astral Self and Sun Soul (without any of Astral Self's utility features). They've even lost Tongue of the Sun and Moon, a feature I've made use of in campaigns. I genuinely dread to think of what might happen to the Mercy subclass.
I know this can be hard to hear, but the problem with previous Monks is that they did the things other classes could do, but much worse. Not just worse vs casters, but often worse than unoptimized martials while the Monk is fully optimized. You talk about Tongue of the Sun and Moon - that's a nice ribbon feature but Comprehend Languages is a 1st level Ritual and there are many other magical and nonmagical ways to solve language barriers in D&D that are available long before 13th level. Monk didn't have any class-wide damage scaling after 5th level besides the Martial Arts die - capped at a mere d10 at level 17 while every other martial-adjacent class could carry a versatile weapon for a d10 at level 1.
It wasn't that playing Monks as a Fighter was a bad idea. It was that if the Fighter chose to play as a Monk, they could do the job almost as well as the Monk could and still be an effective fighter. Any Martial class could do about as well as the Monk with the right subclass selection. Many of them could do the things that the Monk supposedly excelled at better than the Monk. And this became most apparent in combat, where the class feature mechanics of the game were most prominent.
Monks in 2014 are designed to be thematic. But the mechanics of being a Monk in 2014 are terrible. You talk about Shadow Monks losing some of their options - but they made use of those features no better than the other classes who could get them like Rangers, Wizards, Druids and Warlocks. And they'd often have to expend a significant portion of their class resources PLUS their action economy to successfully cast a 2nd level spell which could never be upcast and which needed to remain viable for the next 17 levels of play. ODD Monks might lose some features in their classes and subclasses, but those losses are made up for by gaining new features that are actually appropriate for higher levels. The ability to cast Darkness and see your targets within the affected area. Features like the ability to teleport into a surprise attack with or without shadows. Features like the ability to Dash for free whenever you use your Bonus Action. Features like the ability to gain a Fly speed as a bonus action.
You're worried about Mercy, and so am I. But I'm worried because I suspect that as the previously mechanically best Monk class that's received no UA playtest material it's not going to receive any updates to compete with the vastly improved new subclasses. But even then, it will benefit greatly from the mechanical improvements to the core Monk class. It's going to hit harder. It's going to heal better. It will suffer no downsides or negatives, except that it will now feel a little underwhelming. And if an unchanged Way of Mercy Monk is the new low bar for Monks going forward, that's going to be an amazing improvement for everybody.
the low bar is OH.
level 3 feature is nerfed slightly
level 6 feature is reworked, similar power level, but used differently instead of one big heal as an action, its smaller heals throught the day as a BA. scales based on wis instead of level. Interestingly, for the new monk, the action has less value than the BA. So its actually less useful in combat than the old would be in dnd.
level 11 feature, its an improvement, but it was pretty bad before.
level 17 is nerf. not surprising because it was a ko move.
overall its probably a nerf. but thats mostly due to quivering.
but the big difference is the level 3 feature and the level 6 feature are worse relative to one dnd. push and topple are available to all, and healing spells improved,
shadow and elements utility, gameplay, and power improved, and other monk subclasses will benefit more from the decoupling of BA from actions.
the OH monk in the onednd world is the new lowbar sub for monk. Well drunken fist is worse, but it hasn't been reworked yet.
Keep i mind for the new UA you can FOB before your attack action so open hand monk can topple someone first and get advanatage on the rest of the attack rolls that turn. You can even grapple with FOB now. Those options were not available for 2014 open hand monk. There is a slight upgrade there.
With an easy dip into fighter or the weapon mastery feat any monk can get Push from greatclub (which was excluded as a monk weapon in the last UA) and topple from quaterstaff so i agree open hand technique needs something to make it a little more unique and separate it from weapon masteries.
It would be great if they added a mechanic to open hand techinques Push where the enemy takes extra damage (1d6) if it gets pushed into a wall or if you push one creature into another creature, the second creature has to save or also get knocked prone. That would be fun.
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
Sorry but yes. The 2014 Open Hand monk can't flurry and step of the wind in the same turn or topple, grapple, and deal damage in the same attack. It also can't grapple based on DEX. The UA8 Open Hand monk gives up no damage or movement while grappling while still only requiring 1 dp.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
Sorry but no. The 2014 Open Hand monk can't flurry and step of the wind in the same turn or topple, grapple, and deal damage in the same attack. It also can't grapple based on DEX. The UA8 Open Hand monk gives up no damage or movement while grappling while still only requiring 1 dp.
so a couple of things, you may have missed, and even I forgot.
you can't grapple topple and deal damage in the same attack,
Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack Action on your turn, you can deal damage to the target and also grapple it. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
grappler only works on attack action, and topple for the monk, only works on bonus action FOB. Also you can only do this once per turn, so grappling a second guy has no hit, and thus you can't topple that guy either, or do damage to them. You can attempt to topple with a different attack, but cannot topple, grapple and deal damage at the same time. you can damage and grapple at the same time, but only with attack action. There is no special synergy monk has for this, other than a good punch.
also the reason he says skill expert is better, is because it kinda is. a monk grappling with zero str in 2014 would have +8 to their contested roll with expertise. Having dex as the stat sets a DC, even with max dex, at level 11 the DC to beat would be 8+4+5, or 17. the average roll of a d20 is 10.5, so its about similar to having a +6.5 to your roll. Also note, the +8 eventually becomes a +12. There other factors, like enemies with bonus to athletics, but generally, the ability to specialize into grappling is a lot lower in onednd.
So, the big change is you can grapple once per round for free, its pretty great, especially if it has no save. But, that really has nothing to do with OH monk. And specializing in grappling is noticeably less effective.
you are right that you can step and fob now, its nice, sometimes useful. but the disengage version costs Ki, so you will either use Ki, or use an addle on one of your fob hits. still better than before, that feature.
That's a good catch on the Attack Action requirement. Can still grapple with your action, then, and then topple and step of the wind with your bonus action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Eh, the core Monk is meant to facilitate the traditional unarmed or simply armed warrior image first, and the ninja image a distant second. Plus most of the appeal from things like a rope dart or kyoketsu-shoge comes from being able to do fancy trick moves, which is not supported even with Weapon Masteries.
Sorry but what? There is literally a subclass that is 100% inspired by ninjas (Shadow) and another that is completely dedicated to using weapons (Kensei) which is 1/3 subclasses being archetypes that use weapons.
I think what he’s saying is that rope dart and the ninja’s fancy chain weapons are niche (they are: rope dart is, in my obsevation, not a commonly taught weapon).
I’m not sure I would relegate them to the kensei only, but the way you have to seek out a special instructor, and not just a common instructor, for the rope dart seems very subclass appropriate to me.
For the ninja weapons, I might make it a Feat that grants whip proficiency (and all of the reskins that go with it), and the use of it as a Monk Weapon, plus maybe the bonus action attack that compares to the butt-strike from PAM (since the ninja weapons in question are usually useful at both ends). The Feat needs some appropriate prerequisites though. Not 100% sure what those pre-reqs should be, though. 4th Level … what else?
Being a Feat makes it reflect the extra effort put into learning it.
Personally, Open Hand monk is my new favorite. Mercy is great, but open hand is going to be a fantastic grappler control build when you put all the pieces together - speed, body and mind, fleet step, topple, grappler feat.
Run up to that archer/spellcaster sitting comfortably in the back, flurry of blows using unarmed strikes to grapple, topple, and damage them (thanks to the grappler feat) all in the same attack. If you can, grapple/topple 2 enemies. If you need to, you can Addle a creature in the way to get to the ones in the back. Then use Fleet Step to drag them back to the party martials where they cannot stand up while grappled. And you still haven't used your action, so you can continue laying into them or dodge. Also if you're a flying species, you can do the fly up and drop trick.
Other subclasses can do this, but without fleet step, they're not able to move as far without using their bonus action to step of the wind.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
Sorry but yes. The 2014 Open Hand monk can't flurry and step of the wind in the same turn or topple, grapple, and deal damage in the same attack. It also can't grapple based on DEX. The UA8 Open Hand monk gives up no damage or movement while grappling while still only requiring 1 dp.
Yes they can. 2014 Open Hand monk can use 1 attack from their Attack action to grapple, then use Flurry of Blows to punch & topple them, then make 2 remaining attacks at advantage. All while having a higher chance to successfully grapple than the UA8 counterpart, because Expertise in Athletics even with a -1 Strength gives 60+% chance to successfully grapple in 2014 which can be easily buffed to be 80+% chance of success, whereas saving throws have a 50% or lower chance of success and cannot be buffed in any way.
I think what Gwar1 is kind of getting at is if they gave all martials in 1D&D, a Rage feature (without rage damage modifier) but left Barbarian with Rage + Rage damage modifier. (Edit: Oh, and add a feat that non-martials can pick up to also get a Rage feature)
What they did with Barbarians Reckless Attack/Brutal Strike is what they need to do for Open Hand Technique.
I really like the monk changes, but I do feel Open Hand could use OHT to be expanded.
Uh, I know what he's getting at, I just disagree. OHT is fine. It's well-balanced and easy to learn (which you need for the monk subclass that will be in Basic), yet has unique strategies other monks can't do if optimized, as Silvva readily demonstrated. Clamoring for more complexity in the Basic subclass is missing the point.
Yes they can. 2014 Open Hand monk can use 1 attack from their Attack action to grapple, then use Flurry of Blows to punch & topple them, then make 2 remaining attacks at advantage. All while having a higher chance to successfully grapple than the UA8 counterpart, because Expertise in Athletics even with a -1 Strength gives 60+% chance to successfully grapple in 2014 which can be easily buffed to be 80+% chance of success, whereas saving throws have a 50% or lower chance of success and cannot be buffed in any way.
...So you lost at least one punch worth of damage to attempt this because no Punch and Grab, and you're down another because you're using crappy 2014 flurry, and even if you succeed at grappling and toppling them then you're standing around in melee unable to disengage or dash out because no Fleet Step, and you used your bonus action to flurry so no PD dodge either, and your Deflect doesn't work on melee. Wow, 2014 is so much better!
Uh, not exactly sure how 2014 FoB is different from the current until you hit 11th level; in either case it's spending 1 Ki to make two Unarmed Attacks as a Bonus Action.
I think what Gwar1 is kind of getting at is if they gave all martials in 1D&D, a Rage feature (without rage damage modifier) but left Barbarian with Rage + Rage damage modifier. (Edit: Oh, and add a feat that non-martials can pick up to also get a Rage feature)
What they did with Barbarians Reckless Attack/Brutal Strike is what they need to do for Open Hand Technique.
I really like the monk changes, but I do feel Open Hand could use OHT to be expanded.
Uh, I know what he's getting at, I just disagree. OHT is fine. It's well-balanced and easy to learn (which you need for the monk subclass that will be in Basic), yet has unique strategies other monks can't do if optimized, as Silvva readily demonstrated. Clamoring for more complexity in the Basic subclass is missing the point.
Yes they can. 2014 Open Hand monk can use 1 attack from their Attack action to grapple, then use Flurry of Blows to punch & topple them, then make 2 remaining attacks at advantage. All while having a higher chance to successfully grapple than the UA8 counterpart, because Expertise in Athletics even with a -1 Strength gives 60+% chance to successfully grapple in 2014 which can be easily buffed to be 80+% chance of success, whereas saving throws have a 50% or lower chance of success and cannot be buffed in any way.
...So you lost at least one punch worth of damage to attempt this because no Punch and Grab, and you're down another because you're using crappy 2014 flurry, and even if you succeed at grappling and toppling them then you're standing around in melee unable to disengage or dash out because no Fleet Step, and you used your bonus action to flurry so no PD dodge either, and your Deflect doesn't work on melee. Wow, 2014 is so much better!
it doesnt need to be more complex bro, it just needs to be better.
Uh, not exactly sure how 2014 FoB is different from the current until you hit 11th level; in either case it's spending 1 Ki to make two Unarmed Attacks as a Bonus Action.
That wasn't actually the biggest change; the biggest change is that you don't need to Attack first to activate it anymore. OH can now flurry first to Addle and try for a topple or push, then plan the rest of their turn accordingly.
"Anyone else can do it" is kind of the recurring theme of the One D&D Monk.
As someone who played the class a lot, I never had a problem with Monks because I didn't play them the same way I'd play a Fighter. Their niche was that of the support martial, with control options other classes lacked. Playing them as a skirmisher was simple, because the answer to that was to not need a Disengage. Either subclass options for Flurry of Blows, or using thrown weapons or a shortbow when I needed to hit-and-run.
The dismaying thing about One D&D Monks is that not only are they not getting any new control options when other classes are getting various new toys in that regard, many of the subclasses are having options stripped from them. Shadow Monk is now only about casting Darkness, no Silence or Pass Without Trace. Elements Monk gets fairly generic features that blend together Astral Self and Sun Soul (without any of Astral Self's utility features). They've even lost Tongue of the Sun and Moon, a feature I've made use of in campaigns. I genuinely dread to think of what might happen to the Mercy subclass.
I know this can be hard to hear, but the problem with previous Monks is that they did the things other classes could do, but much worse. Not just worse vs casters, but often worse than unoptimized martials while the Monk is fully optimized. You talk about Tongue of the Sun and Moon - that's a nice ribbon feature but Comprehend Languages is a 1st level Ritual and there are many other magical and nonmagical ways to solve language barriers in D&D that are available long before 13th level. Monk didn't have any class-wide damage scaling after 5th level besides the Martial Arts die - capped at a mere d10 at level 17 while every other martial-adjacent class could carry a versatile weapon for a d10 at level 1.
It wasn't that playing Monks as a Fighter was a bad idea. It was that if the Fighter chose to play as a Monk, they could do the job almost as well as the Monk could and still be an effective fighter. Any Martial class could do about as well as the Monk with the right subclass selection. Many of them could do the things that the Monk supposedly excelled at better than the Monk. And this became most apparent in combat, where the class feature mechanics of the game were most prominent.
Monks in 2014 are designed to be thematic. But the mechanics of being a Monk in 2014 are terrible. You talk about Shadow Monks losing some of their options - but they made use of those features no better than the other classes who could get them like Rangers, Wizards, Druids and Warlocks. And they'd often have to expend a significant portion of their class resources PLUS their action economy to successfully cast a 2nd level spell which could never be upcast and which needed to remain viable for the next 17 levels of play. ODD Monks might lose some features in their classes and subclasses, but those losses are made up for by gaining new features that are actually appropriate for higher levels. The ability to cast Darkness and see your targets within the affected area. Features like the ability to teleport into a surprise attack with or without shadows. Features like the ability to Dash for free whenever you use your Bonus Action. Features like the ability to gain a Fly speed as a bonus action.
You're worried about Mercy, and so am I. But I'm worried because I suspect that as the previously mechanically best Monk class that's received no UA playtest material it's not going to receive any updates to compete with the vastly improved new subclasses. But even then, it will benefit greatly from the mechanical improvements to the core Monk class. It's going to hit harder. It's going to heal better. It will suffer no downsides or negatives, except that it will now feel a little underwhelming. And if an unchanged Way of Mercy Monk is the new low bar for Monks going forward, that's going to be an amazing improvement for everybody.
See, I don't care at all if you think the Monk was worse than other classes. If you thought the Monk was worse than other classes, then the choice to play other classes was always there for you. But in all the groups I've played in, all the Monks I've played, they were able to do things that other classes - caster or martial - couldn't. Either their own unique niches, like mobility and control, or combining roles like the Shadow Monk. I had fun doing things with Monk subclasses that are either no longer options for the Monk in One D&D, or that other classes can do much more easily than the Monk. Everything that Shadow and Elements Monks lost out on, and you treat getting a free BA Disengage - something that Monks didn't actually need, when most subclasses have answers for that - as worth it.
I don't care if you think it's worth it, just like you don't care how I and other folks feel.
(Also, a point to highlight...the spells Shadow Monks could use don't have the option to upcast for standard casters anyway. And denying an enemy sight and sound or just buffing the party's Stealth are extremely useful abilities well regardless of level.)
Yes they can. 2014 Open Hand monk can use 1 attack from their Attack action to grapple, then use Flurry of Blows to punch & topple them, then make 2 remaining attacks at advantage. All while having a higher chance to successfully grapple than the UA8 counterpart, because Expertise in Athletics even with a -1 Strength gives 60+% chance to successfully grapple in 2014 which can be easily buffed to be 80+% chance of success, whereas saving throws have a 50% or lower chance of success and cannot be buffed in any way.
...So you lost at least one punch worth of damage to attempt this because no Punch and Grab, and you're down another because you're using crappy 2014 flurry, and even if you succeed at grappling and toppling them then you're standing around in melee unable to disengage or dash out because no Fleet Step, and you used your bonus action to flurry so no PD dodge either, and your Deflect doesn't work on melee. Wow, 2014 is so much better!
Sorry, I don't know what you are going on about here? We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap. Disengaging is completely pointless if you are grappling, so I haven't a clue what you are talking about there, and it is 95% of the time pointless on an OH monk because using FoB let's you prevent the enemy attacking you anyway and it does 2 attacks worth of damage at the same time, alternatively stunning them also prevents them from attacking you and doesn't reduce your DPR at all. Dashing as a monk is almost never necessary since your movement speed is so high anyway.
UA8 hasn't really improved OH like at all over 2014 it just undid the nerfs of the previous UA that utterly killed OH, though Deflect Attack and the bonus damage on a save vs stunning strike are definitely major improvements for the base class, everything else is more or less a wash.
Source: I played a 2014 OH monk for a year long campaign.
Sorry, I don't know what you are going on about here? We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap. Disengaging is completely pointless if you are grappling, so I haven't a clue what you are talking about there, and it is 95% of the time pointless on an OH monk because using FoB let's you prevent the enemy attacking you anyway and it does 2 attacks worth of damage at the same time, alternatively stunning them also prevents them from attacking you and doesn't reduce your DPR at all. Dashing as a monk is almost never necessary since your movement speed is so high anyway.
UA8 hasn't really improved OH like at all over 2014 it just undid the nerfs of the previous UA that utterly killed OH, though Deflect Attack and the bonus damage on a save vs stunning strike are definitely major improvements for the base class, everything else is more or less a wash.
Source: I played a 2014 OH monk for a year long campaign.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
I'm disputing your definition of "better grappler." Challenging the other side's premise is how debates work.
Successfully landing a grapple only to be stuck in enemy melee with subpar defenses, get swarmed and die does not make you a better grappler.
And even if I went with your narrow definition of "better grappler can only ever mean having a higher chance to succeed at the grapple check in a white room vacuum, irrespective of everything that happens after the grapple," UA8 still wins. Because with 2024 Grappler, they can make two grapple checks for free without sacrificing any attacks, and then sacrifice their extra flurry attempt to try, all without losing any damage relative to the 2014 version. Therefore, even with a lower chance to land the grapple, they get three times as many chances before needing to sacrifice relative damage - one of those will succeed.
And "no improvement over 2014 OH" is just utterly wrong.
Successfully landing a grapple only to be stuck in enemy melee with subpar defenses, get swarmed and die does not make you a better grappler.
You literally cannot grapple and not be in melee with the enemy so I do not understand what your point is? Why on earth would anyone grapple, then punch, then let go of the creature you grappled, then disengage and run away? It doesn't make any sense?! Dodging is pointless when they already has Disadvantage b/c they are prone.
You literally cannot grapple and not be in melee with the enemy so I do not understand what your point is? Why on earth would anyone grapple, then punch, then let go of the creature you grappled, then disengage and run away? It doesn't make any sense?! Dodging is pointless when they already has Disadvantage b/c they are prone.
You don't have to let go; you can take them out with you. And with 2024 Grappler, you don't even lose any speed doing so - yet another advantage of 2024 over 2014. Sillvva spelled all this out in their post, bold is entirely your invention.
I think what Gwar1 is kind of getting at is if they gave all martials in 1D&D, a Rage feature (without rage damage modifier) but left Barbarian with Rage + Rage damage modifier. (Edit: Oh, and add a feat that non-martials can pick up to also get a Rage feature)
What they did with Barbarians Reckless Attack/Brutal Strike is what they need to do for Open Hand Technique.
I really like the monk changes, but I do feel Open Hand could use OHT to be expanded.
Uh, I know what he's getting at, I just disagree. OHT is fine. It's well-balanced and easy to learn (which you need for the monk subclass that will be in Basic), yet has unique strategies other monks can't do if optimized, as Silvva readily demonstrated. Clamoring for more complexity in the Basic subclass is missing the point.
Maybe I missed something, but did JC say that all classes in the PHB will have a "subclass that will be in Basic". So there will be a basic wizard and basic bard and basic cleric subclass too?
OHT is fine
It's ok, sure, fine. But it isn't great especially for the subclasses defining feature. It was a very good feature in 2014 (which it's basically the same as UA8 other than UA8's doesn't require the Attack action and Addle is OA only not all Reactions). But the introduction of Weapon Masteries makes it less so of a good feature. Being able to Push a little further (+5', no size restriction, but they get a save) and Topple with a better saving throw doesn't scream good stand alone subclass feature.
And I really like this monk. If they printed the class, as is, with Hand, Shadow, and Elements monk as they appeared in the UAs I will be happy. I just think with the introduction of Weapon Masteries, OHT could use other options. Not necessarily more complexity but something that sets it apart from WM.
I know this can be hard to hear, but the problem with previous Monks is that they did the things other classes could do, but much worse. Not just worse vs casters, but often worse than unoptimized martials while the Monk is fully optimized. You talk about Tongue of the Sun and Moon - that's a nice ribbon feature but Comprehend Languages is a 1st level Ritual and there are many other magical and nonmagical ways to solve language barriers in D&D that are available long before 13th level. Monk didn't have any class-wide damage scaling after 5th level besides the Martial Arts die - capped at a mere d10 at level 17 while every other martial-adjacent class could carry a versatile weapon for a d10 at level 1.
It wasn't that playing Monks as a Fighter was a bad idea. It was that if the Fighter chose to play as a Monk, they could do the job almost as well as the Monk could and still be an effective fighter. Any Martial class could do about as well as the Monk with the right subclass selection. Many of them could do the things that the Monk supposedly excelled at better than the Monk. And this became most apparent in combat, where the class feature mechanics of the game were most prominent.
Monks in 2014 are designed to be thematic. But the mechanics of being a Monk in 2014 are terrible. You talk about Shadow Monks losing some of their options - but they made use of those features no better than the other classes who could get them like Rangers, Wizards, Druids and Warlocks. And they'd often have to expend a significant portion of their class resources PLUS their action economy to successfully cast a 2nd level spell which could never be upcast and which needed to remain viable for the next 17 levels of play. ODD Monks might lose some features in their classes and subclasses, but those losses are made up for by gaining new features that are actually appropriate for higher levels. The ability to cast Darkness and see your targets within the affected area. Features like the ability to teleport into a surprise attack with or without shadows. Features like the ability to Dash for free whenever you use your Bonus Action. Features like the ability to gain a Fly speed as a bonus action.
You're worried about Mercy, and so am I. But I'm worried because I suspect that as the previously mechanically best Monk class that's received no UA playtest material it's not going to receive any updates to compete with the vastly improved new subclasses. But even then, it will benefit greatly from the mechanical improvements to the core Monk class. It's going to hit harder. It's going to heal better. It will suffer no downsides or negatives, except that it will now feel a little underwhelming. And if an unchanged Way of Mercy Monk is the new low bar for Monks going forward, that's going to be an amazing improvement for everybody.
I think what Gwar1 is kind of getting at is if they gave all martials in 1D&D, a Rage feature (without rage damage modifier) but left Barbarian with Rage + Rage damage modifier. (Edit: Oh, and add a feat that non-martials can pick up to also get a Rage feature)
What they did with Barbarians Reckless Attack/Brutal Strike is what they need to do for Open Hand Technique.
I really like the monk changes, but I do feel Open Hand could use OHT to be expanded.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
the low bar is OH.
level 3 feature is nerfed slightly
level 6 feature is reworked, similar power level, but used differently instead of one big heal as an action, its smaller heals throught the day as a BA. scales based on wis instead of level. Interestingly, for the new monk, the action has less value than the BA. So its actually less useful in combat than the old would be in dnd.
level 11 feature, its an improvement, but it was pretty bad before.
level 17 is nerf. not surprising because it was a ko move.
overall its probably a nerf. but thats mostly due to quivering.
but the big difference is the level 3 feature and the level 6 feature are worse relative to one dnd. push and topple are available to all, and healing spells improved,
shadow and elements utility, gameplay, and power improved, and other monk subclasses will benefit more from the decoupling of BA from actions.
the OH monk in the onednd world is the new lowbar sub for monk. Well drunken fist is worse, but it hasn't been reworked yet.
Keep i mind for the new UA you can FOB before your attack action so open hand monk can topple someone first and get advanatage on the rest of the attack rolls that turn. You can even grapple with FOB now. Those options were not available for 2014 open hand monk. There is a slight upgrade there.
With an easy dip into fighter or the weapon mastery feat any monk can get Push from greatclub (which was excluded as a monk weapon in the last UA) and topple from quaterstaff so i agree open hand technique needs something to make it a little more unique and separate it from weapon masteries.
It would be great if they added a mechanic to open hand techinques Push where the enemy takes extra damage (1d6) if it gets pushed into a wall or if you push one creature into another creature, the second creature has to save or also get knocked prone. That would be fun.
Sorry but yes. The 2014 Open Hand monk can't flurry and step of the wind in the same turn or topple, grapple, and deal damage in the same attack. It also can't grapple based on DEX. The UA8 Open Hand monk gives up no damage or movement while grappling while still only requiring 1 dp.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
so a couple of things, you may have missed, and even I forgot.
you can't grapple topple and deal damage in the same attack,
grappler only works on attack action, and topple for the monk, only works on bonus action FOB. Also you can only do this once per turn, so grappling a second guy has no hit, and thus you can't topple that guy either, or do damage to them. You can attempt to topple with a different attack, but cannot topple, grapple and deal damage at the same time. you can damage and grapple at the same time, but only with attack action. There is no special synergy monk has for this, other than a good punch.
also the reason he says skill expert is better, is because it kinda is. a monk grappling with zero str in 2014 would have +8 to their contested roll with expertise. Having dex as the stat sets a DC, even with max dex, at level 11 the DC to beat would be 8+4+5, or 17. the average roll of a d20 is 10.5, so its about similar to having a +6.5 to your roll. Also note, the +8 eventually becomes a +12. There other factors, like enemies with bonus to athletics, but generally, the ability to specialize into grappling is a lot lower in onednd.
So, the big change is you can grapple once per round for free, its pretty great, especially if it has no save. But, that really has nothing to do with OH monk. And specializing in grappling is noticeably less effective.
you are right that you can step and fob now, its nice, sometimes useful. but the disengage version costs Ki, so you will either use Ki, or use an addle on one of your fob hits. still better than before, that feature.
the rest isn't though
That's a good catch on the Attack Action requirement. Can still grapple with your action, then, and then topple and step of the wind with your bonus action.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
I think what he’s saying is that rope dart and the ninja’s fancy chain weapons are niche (they are: rope dart is, in my obsevation, not a commonly taught weapon).
I’m not sure I would relegate them to the kensei only, but the way you have to seek out a special instructor, and not just a common instructor, for the rope dart seems very subclass appropriate to me.
For the ninja weapons, I might make it a Feat that grants whip proficiency (and all of the reskins that go with it), and the use of it as a Monk Weapon, plus maybe the bonus action attack that compares to the butt-strike from PAM (since the ninja weapons in question are usually useful at both ends). The Feat needs some appropriate prerequisites though. Not 100% sure what those pre-reqs should be, though. 4th Level … what else?
Being a Feat makes it reflect the extra effort put into learning it.
Yes they can. 2014 Open Hand monk can use 1 attack from their Attack action to grapple, then use Flurry of Blows to punch & topple them, then make 2 remaining attacks at advantage. All while having a higher chance to successfully grapple than the UA8 counterpart, because Expertise in Athletics even with a -1 Strength gives 60+% chance to successfully grapple in 2014 which can be easily buffed to be 80+% chance of success, whereas saving throws have a 50% or lower chance of success and cannot be buffed in any way.
Uh, I know what he's getting at, I just disagree. OHT is fine. It's well-balanced and easy to learn (which you need for the monk subclass that will be in Basic), yet has unique strategies other monks can't do if optimized, as Silvva readily demonstrated. Clamoring for more complexity in the Basic subclass is missing the point.
...So you lost at least one punch worth of damage to attempt this because no Punch and Grab, and you're down another because you're using crappy 2014 flurry, and even if you succeed at grappling and toppling them then you're standing around in melee unable to disengage or dash out because no Fleet Step, and you used your bonus action to flurry so no PD dodge either, and your Deflect doesn't work on melee. Wow, 2014 is so much better!
Uh, not exactly sure how 2014 FoB is different from the current until you hit 11th level; in either case it's spending 1 Ki to make two Unarmed Attacks as a Bonus Action.
it doesnt need to be more complex bro, it just needs to be better.
Then propose something better, "bro." So far you haven't.
That wasn't actually the biggest change; the biggest change is that you don't need to Attack first to activate it anymore. OH can now flurry first to Addle and try for a topple or push, then plan the rest of their turn accordingly.
Ah, I see.
See, I don't care at all if you think the Monk was worse than other classes. If you thought the Monk was worse than other classes, then the choice to play other classes was always there for you. But in all the groups I've played in, all the Monks I've played, they were able to do things that other classes - caster or martial - couldn't. Either their own unique niches, like mobility and control, or combining roles like the Shadow Monk. I had fun doing things with Monk subclasses that are either no longer options for the Monk in One D&D, or that other classes can do much more easily than the Monk. Everything that Shadow and Elements Monks lost out on, and you treat getting a free BA Disengage - something that Monks didn't actually need, when most subclasses have answers for that - as worth it.
I don't care if you think it's worth it, just like you don't care how I and other folks feel.
(Also, a point to highlight...the spells Shadow Monks could use don't have the option to upcast for standard casters anyway. And denying an enemy sight and sound or just buffing the party's Stealth are extremely useful abilities well regardless of level.)
Sorry, I don't know what you are going on about here? We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap. Disengaging is completely pointless if you are grappling, so I haven't a clue what you are talking about there, and it is 95% of the time pointless on an OH monk because using FoB let's you prevent the enemy attacking you anyway and it does 2 attacks worth of damage at the same time, alternatively stunning them also prevents them from attacking you and doesn't reduce your DPR at all. Dashing as a monk is almost never necessary since your movement speed is so high anyway.
UA8 hasn't really improved OH like at all over 2014 it just undid the nerfs of the previous UA that utterly killed OH, though Deflect Attack and the bonus damage on a save vs stunning strike are definitely major improvements for the base class, everything else is more or less a wash.
Source: I played a 2014 OH monk for a year long campaign.
You said:
I'm disputing your definition of "better grappler." Challenging the other side's premise is how debates work.
Successfully landing a grapple only to be stuck in enemy melee with subpar defenses, get swarmed and die does not make you a better grappler.
And even if I went with your narrow definition of "better grappler can only ever mean having a higher chance to succeed at the grapple check in a white room vacuum, irrespective of everything that happens after the grapple," UA8 still wins. Because with 2024 Grappler, they can make two grapple checks for free without sacrificing any attacks, and then sacrifice their extra flurry attempt to try, all without losing any damage relative to the 2014 version. Therefore, even with a lower chance to land the grapple, they get three times as many chances before needing to sacrifice relative damage - one of those will succeed.
And "no improvement over 2014 OH" is just utterly wrong.
You literally cannot grapple and not be in melee with the enemy so I do not understand what your point is? Why on earth would anyone grapple, then punch, then let go of the creature you grappled, then disengage and run away? It doesn't make any sense?! Dodging is pointless when they already has Disadvantage b/c they are prone.
You don't have to let go; you can take them out with you. And with 2024 Grappler, you don't even lose any speed doing so - yet another advantage of 2024 over 2014. Sillvva spelled all this out in their post, bold is entirely your invention.
Maybe I missed something, but did JC say that all classes in the PHB will have a "subclass that will be in Basic". So there will be a basic wizard and basic bard and basic cleric subclass too?
It's ok, sure, fine. But it isn't great especially for the subclasses defining feature. It was a very good feature in 2014 (which it's basically the same as UA8 other than UA8's doesn't require the Attack action and Addle is OA only not all Reactions). But the introduction of Weapon Masteries makes it less so of a good feature. Being able to Push a little further (+5', no size restriction, but they get a save) and Topple with a better saving throw doesn't scream good stand alone subclass feature.
And I really like this monk. If they printed the class, as is, with Hand, Shadow, and Elements monk as they appeared in the UAs I will be happy. I just think with the introduction of Weapon Masteries, OHT could use other options. Not necessarily more complexity but something that sets it apart from WM.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?