This version of Monk is definitely in a healthier spot, it's damage is improved and failed stunning strikes doing damage is nice, the resource is no longer pointlessly wasted.
Deflect attacks is good but got to address the elephant in the room, it only works against Piercing, Slashing or Bludgeoning attacks. With magical weapons now seeming to do force damage, you can not deflect the attack of a magical weapon. Overall there will be more attacks that can be deflected since melee encompasses a significant amount of trash mobs that all do non-magical damage.
Nah, check the 13th-level feature. It adds the ability to deflect any damage type.
was scanning, missed that, still gives 10 levels without that. Ah well.
Now that they don't have to burn ki to Disengage, they're no squishier than a rogue. In fact, they're better off, since they can wait to do so until after seeing if their stun/addle fails; if either succeeds, then they can use their BA offensively instead before zipping out.
The Monk looks incredible now. They're still MAD, but the sheer number of things you can do without discipline to help your survivability now is amazing. In addition, they've gotten their damage output buffed and various quality of life improvements.
Martial Arts die starts at 1d6, and goes up to 1d12
Flurry and Martial Arts no longer need you to attack with your action to use their bonus action attacks, so you can e.g. dodge and flurry
You can now Disengage or Dash as a BA unlimited times without spending any discipline. If you do spend discipline, those two get improved (i.e. Disengage + Dodge, and Dash + Disengage, respectively.)
Stunning Strike now does bonus damage if the target succeeds at their saving throw (MA + Wis), making it never be a wasted action, i.e. you're always getting something for using it. This should probably do the bonus damage if the target is immune to Stun too.)
You can recover all your disc without a SR 1/day.
Still Mind has been renamed to Self-Restoration and no longer requires an action. It also covers the Poisoned condition now.
At high levels you will always have at least 4 discipline going into any combat, even if you weren't able to rest.
The "resist all damage except Force" high level ability doesn't cost an action to activate anymore.
The capstone is *chef's kiss*
I'm super excited to play this monk now!
I think you are rushing to be too excited too soon tbh. A lot of these changes are just solutions to problems WOTC created themselves, like allowing monks to have a martial weapon proficiency again. I do agree some of these changes are great AND they have finally reached the bare minimum of One DnD monk being better than 2014 phb monk. But we have to remember that the bar was on the floor and I still think Monk could use some buffing and refining.
The Monk looks incredible now. They're still MAD, but the sheer number of things you can do without discipline to help your survivability now is amazing. In addition, they've gotten their damage output buffed and various quality of life improvements.
Martial Arts die starts at 1d6, and goes up to 1d12
Flurry and Martial Arts no longer need you to attack with your action to use their bonus action attacks, so you can e.g. dodge and flurry
You can now Disengage or Dash as a BA unlimited times without spending any discipline. If you do spend discipline, those two get improved (i.e. Disengage + Dodge, and Dash + Disengage, respectively.)
Stunning Strike now does bonus damage if the target succeeds at their saving throw (MA + Wis), making it never be a wasted action, i.e. you're always getting something for using it. This should probably do the bonus damage if the target is immune to Stun too.)
You can recover all your disc without a SR 1/day.
Still Mind has been renamed to Self-Restoration and no longer requires an action. It also covers the Poisoned condition now.
At high levels you will always have at least 4 discipline going into any combat, even if you weren't able to rest.
The "resist all damage except Force" high level ability doesn't cost an action to activate anymore.
The capstone is *chef's kiss*
Open Hand is now Super Drunken Master because the "no reactions" punch no longer needs a saving throw (go punch that counterspeller right in the jaw)
I'm super excited to play this monk now!
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
also, BA features still can’t really compete. Dodge and step still gives up massive dps, never good to use them unless there is no choice
thier max damage has gone up, but the gameplay will still be basic attack flurry +stunning strike every turn, until you run out of ki, after 1-2 fights. No interesting choices
Not as much options as weapon mastery, but it has some interesting things now. Not super excited, but not de-resting any more.
I agree with this but especially the stunning strike part. They kinda shot themselves in the foot with this one because tying damage to stunning strike now incentivizes using it every turn again. You'd wanna use it + flurry of blows every turn past level 10 to get an equivalent of six attacks. And considering that the martial arts die improvement is still barely an improvement from the 2014 version, this isn't adding much to the monk compared to every other martial in One DND. I worry people are gonna see the other changes and rush to give this a 10/10 when literally anything looks better than what we had before.
Unlike rogue monks still don't benefit from armor or have an equivalent to uncanny dodge. The new deflect attacks does help but a monk should have better defenses than a rogue not equal defenses for being a frontline fighter with a much smaller effective range
They've definitely made monk more durable, but it does still have the problem that, other than magic, its only damage increase in tiers 3 and 4 is increased martial arts die.
If they follow through on the promise for more magic items for unarmed fighters, that will also benefit the Monk. But I will believe it when I see it.
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
Two fights per short rest most days seems reasonable to me, and with the ability to do more disc-free actions you can stretch your ki more easily.
For an emergency you have Uncanny Metabolism as well, though I wouldn't mind if that scaled up to 2-3 uses per LR.
I wonder how it changes if you cut DP to 1/2 or 1/3, but the DP renewal happens EVERY time you roll initiative, not just once per long rest. (let the heal stay 1/LR).
It solves the bigger picture DP issue, but reducing the total keeps it from being nearly unlimited for each fight.
I’m pleasantly surprised. It doesn’t have all of the tings that I would have wanted but I think they did make improvements over 2014 and especially over the 1st UA. I think they went in the right direction.
Some might say that the Metabolism thing at 2nd isn’t enough but I think it will help. It’s basically a free short rest DP recovery. And you still get your DP on a SR when you do take it. If you are 8th level and have 8 DP that’s up to 16 DP without a SR.
The loss of Weapon Masteries isn’t great but it made Open hand’s OHT almost useless. But they still could have done something with it.
I've only given it a quick look so far but it seems like an improvement overall, the things that stand out to me are:
I'm pretty ambivalent about the loss of Weapon Mastery, but that's mainly because I've been so underwhelmed by that feature since its introduction. It's just not interesting to me in its current form so I find it hard to care that it's gone.
I'm concerned it might be a bit front-loaded now; while it requires being unarmoured to get its 1st-level benefits, they are pretty decent if you're happy to make that trade (bonus action attack you can always use, can use Dexterity for grappling/shoving) which makes it very tempting for any Dexterity build. Hard to weigh up if that's a bad thing or not.
Likewise the 2nd-level is pretty tempting now too, mainly because Uncanny Metablism (rubbish name) lets you double Ki points and basically have Second Wind when rolling Initiative. Really I'm just concerned that a quick Monk dip on a Dexterity Fighter is still going to be better overall.
Otherwise the free-use Disengage and Dash are much needed, and getting Disengage with the costed versions of Patient Defence and Step of the Wind massively helps with being mobile.
The ability to do Flurry of Blows without taking the attack action is also really good (hence my balance concerns), as you could Dodge as your regular action to defend and attack at once, before you get your second attack at 5th-level (and at 10th-level when Flurry becomes three, it's actually better to do it this way if you don't need to Disengage). My gut feeling though is that bonus action attacks should be limited to following certain actions, specifically Attack, Dash, or any Monk action, to avoid any multiclassing issues.
Deflect Attacks is hard to gauge; I used to play a character using a modified/reimagined Kensei sub-class that basically did this, and against few attacks it can be extremely strong (potentially little or no damage in a round) but it can also be easily overwhelmed with it being a single reaction. On the other hand, Patient Defence makes it more effective (less attacks hitting so less damage to counter). I feel like it should at least be Deflect Missiles first, then gain melee attacks later between 3rd- and 13th-level (Deflect Energy). On the other hand, this gives Monks a much needed boost to defence without increasing the hit-dice or similar, and from my experience playing with that it does feel quite unique due to its strengths (fewer attacks incoming) and weakness (more attacks incoming).
Stunning Strike's damage on a successful saving throw really helps with it being nerfed, but if anything it doubles down on the original problem, which is that Stunning Strike is still going to be the main thing a Monk spends it's points on since it's now either a game changing effect, or a pretty good bit of extra damage for a single Discipline point. I was really hoping to gain more options like how both Rogue and now Barbarian are getting combat manoeuvres, rather than just having the same one option we had before.
Acrobatic Movement is still unclear about what it actually means; seriously Wizards of the Coast, do you want use to go up walls or not? Make this less vague!
Heightened Discipline is actually pretty nice. Allowing Large on the upgraded Step of the Wind seems unnecessary, being able to move allies without opportunity attacks is already huge, especially with a Monk's sheer speed. Plus it conjures a weird image as I guess I'm picturing the Monk picking up the other person, but maybe that's just me?
Self-Restoration, I don't see why they can't have called this Purity of Mind and Body but it's nice to have some proper clarity at last.
Disciplined Survivor still feels to me like it should be split in an earlier feature, as 14th-level is still unlikely to be reached in many campaigns.
Perfect Discipline – always start a fight with Discipline points, lovely. And they finally ditched the weird wording that required features like these to be on zero before they worked!
Superior Defence – this seems good. I kind of miss astral projection as an option, but I can't name any DM of mine that would deny me astral projection if my 18th-level monk slams some "herbal" medicine and meditates so it may not have been needed anyway.
Body and Mind – not a fan of the name but it seems like a pretty good capstone given how dependent on Dexterity and Wisdom Monks are.
Overall I'm tentatively positive, but I'll need to dig into way more and try to organise some playtesting to give it a proper shake. Still some areas to improve but much better than the frankly insulting update we got before.
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They've definitely made monk more durable, but it does still have the problem that, other than magic, its only damage increase in tiers 3 and 4 is increased martial arts die.
If they follow through on the promise for more magic items for unarmed fighters, that will also benefit the Monk. But I will believe it when I see it.
The wording for Patient Defense seems off to me. Kinda wish the free version was BA to Dodge, and the 1DP version was BA to disengage + dodge.
i thought so too. and then i remembered that i've been saying monk's thing should be mobility. from that perspective, it seems right that dash and disengage should be bonus actions. dodge is something to pivot to, something to focus on. seems about right.
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The wording for Patient Defense seems off to me. Kinda wish the free version was BA to Dodge, and the 1DP version was BA to disengage + dodge.
i thought so too. and then i remembered that i've been saying monk's thing should be mobility. from that perspective, it seems right that dash and disengage should be bonus actions. dodge is something to pivot to, something to focus on. seems about right.
Bonus action Dodge is also really good for even a two level dip; I ran into this problem when trying to do my own take on an updated Monk, as it'd just be multiclass gold for many classes since some just don't have many bonus actions.
For example, while it would slow their spell progression a bit, a Wizard could become a mobile, fully skilled melee martial artist that would effectively have almost always on, concentration free blur on top of all their other defence options like shield etc. While it might be nice to see some new popular multiclass dips, it should be for thematic and fun reasons, not power.
Disengage being free was the way to go, and I'm happy to be able to bonus action Dash for free, though I do still feel like it shouldn't be free to double-Dash with a Monk's base speed (a Monk single Dashing can already outpace a double-Dashing Rogue) but if it keeps the wording simple it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on. 😉
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Monks best gameplay is now clearly a skirmisher. For years we have debated were they really fit. With free disengage as a bonus action it’s clear they fit that play style best now. Monks should be using hit a run tactics more than trying to deal additional damage with with their bonus action. Anyone trying to Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, Deflect Attack every round is going to run out of points fast. Now they should attempt SS and if they succeed then FoB, but if they fail disengage and run away. The free bonus action attack should be used only when you believe it could kill or help the enemy before it’s turn or the disengage wouldn’t get you out of its range. Monks high mobility as hit and run skirmishers should be on display with this new design. This is not the play style I prefer for the monk, but it is the one the guided by the tools they have been given.
I'm concerned it might be a bit front-loaded now; while it requires being unarmoured to get its 1st-level benefits, they are pretty decent if you're happy to make that trade (bonus action attack you can always use, can use Dexterity for grappling/shoving) which makes it very tempting for any Dexterity build. Hard to weigh up if that's a bad thing or not.
Likewise the 2nd-level is pretty tempting now too, mainly because Uncanny Metablism (rubbish name) lets you double Ki points and basically have Second Wind when rolling Initiative. Really I'm just concerned that a quick Monk dip on a Dexterity Fighter is still going to be better overall.
For me these are features rather than bugs. A Str Fighter might also want a 2-level Barb dip for Reckless for example. 2 level Monk dip for a BA unarmed strike could be a lot of fun on a Moon Druid, giving them a grapple or shove attempt before they multiattack!
I'm concerned it might be a bit front-loaded now; while it requires being unarmoured to get its 1st-level benefits, they are pretty decent if you're happy to make that trade (bonus action attack you can always use, can use Dexterity for grappling/shoving) which makes it very tempting for any Dexterity build. Hard to weigh up if that's a bad thing or not.
Likewise the 2nd-level is pretty tempting now too, mainly because Uncanny Metablism (rubbish name) lets you double Ki points and basically have Second Wind when rolling Initiative. Really I'm just concerned that a quick Monk dip on a Dexterity Fighter is still going to be better overall.
For me these are features rather than bugs. A Str Fighter might also want a 2-level Barb dip for Reckless for example. 2 level Monk dip for a BA unarmed strike could be a lot of fun on a Moon Druid, giving them a grapple or shove attempt before they multiattack!
That's why I'm "concerned" rather than denouncing it; it's a tough thing to judge so early though. I think part of the issue is that they've lifted some restrictions that, while great for Monk, may also make it more exploitable for multiclassing as well.
For example, all of the bonus action attacks are now completely unrestricted in when you use them; a good boon for pure Monk, but also fantastic on any multiclass with a class that didn't have many bonus actions of its own. I think it might make more sense to meet in the middle somewhere, for example, bonus action attacks can be used after the Attack, Dash, Dodge, or any Monk action.
After all, the Monk's access to extra unarmed strikes is supposed to be compensating for our lack of weapon attacks (and weapon mastery) but a Fighter with two shortswords using Nick can make five attacks without Action Surging. And I'm not even sure what kind of exploits we could see from casters that could do something like steel wind strike followed by a Flurry of Blows (there's almost definitely something even stronger than that).
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That's why I'm "concerned" rather than denouncing it entirely; it's a tough thing to judge. I think part of the issue is that they've lifted some restrictions that, while great for Monk, may also make it more exploitable for multiclassing as well.
For example, all of the bonus action attacks are now completely unrestricted in when you use them; a good boon for pure Monk, but also fantastic on any multiclass with a class that doesn't have many bonus actions. I think it might make more sense to meet in the middle somewhere, for example, bonus action attacks can be used after the Attack, Dash, Dodge, or any Monk action. This gives the same freedom, but without inviting every caster to run around dishing out of Flurry of Blows.
There will always be things that are exploitive for multiclassing. That can be dealt with by DMs at their tables.
We shouldn't compromise the fun of playing a single class by focusing on what might happen through multiclassing.
The wording for Patient Defense seems off to me. Kinda wish the free version was BA to Dodge, and the 1DP version was BA to disengage + dodge.
i thought so too. and then i remembered that i've been saying monk's thing should be mobility. from that perspective, it seems right that dash and disengage should be bonus actions. dodge is something to pivot to, something to focus on. seems about right.
Bonus action Dodge is also really good for even a two level dip; I ran into this problem when trying to do my own take on an updated Monk, as it'd just be multiclass gold for many classes since some just don't have many bonus actions.
For example, while it would slow their spell progression a bit, a Wizard could become a mobile, fully skilled melee martial artist that would effectively have almost always on, concentration free blur on top of all their other defence options like shield etc. While it might be nice to see some new popular multiclass dips, it should be for thematic and fun reasons, not power.
Disengage being free was the way to go, and I'm happy to be able to bonus action Dash for free, though I do still feel like it shouldn't be free to double-Dash with a Monk's base speed (a Monk single Dashing can already outpace a double-Dashing Rogue) but if it keeps the wording simple it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on. 😉
On the first part, completely agree, BA dodge is way too powerful to not cost a resource.
For the latter part, the double dash being free is totally fine (Rogues get that too) and in fact monk speed makes it even better because you can get in and out of most creatures' melee/move radius with a single dash/disengage and still have your action free.
monk rules basically say Ki attacks DC is Ki save aka wisdom. its in the monk discipline feature
Now that they don't have to burn ki to Disengage, they're no squishier than a rogue. In fact, they're better off, since they can wait to do so until after seeing if their stun/addle fails; if either succeeds, then they can use their BA offensively instead before zipping out.
I think you are rushing to be too excited too soon tbh. A lot of these changes are just solutions to problems WOTC created themselves, like allowing monks to have a martial weapon proficiency again. I do agree some of these changes are great AND they have finally reached the bare minimum of One DnD monk being better than 2014 phb monk. But we have to remember that the bar was on the floor and I still think Monk could use some buffing and refining.
I agree with this but especially the stunning strike part. They kinda shot themselves in the foot with this one because tying damage to stunning strike now incentivizes using it every turn again. You'd wanna use it + flurry of blows every turn past level 10 to get an equivalent of six attacks. And considering that the martial arts die improvement is still barely an improvement from the 2014 version, this isn't adding much to the monk compared to every other martial in One DND. I worry people are gonna see the other changes and rush to give this a 10/10 when literally anything looks better than what we had before.
Unlike rogue monks still don't benefit from armor or have an equivalent to uncanny dodge. The new deflect attacks does help but a monk should have better defenses than a rogue not equal defenses for being a frontline fighter with a much smaller effective range
And, as some of us requested (myself included), Deflect Missiles is now Deflect Attacks and works against melee atttacks.
If they follow through on the promise for more magic items for unarmed fighters, that will also benefit the Monk. But I will believe it when I see it.
I wonder how it changes if you cut DP to 1/2 or 1/3, but the DP renewal happens EVERY time you roll initiative, not just once per long rest. (let the heal stay 1/LR).
It solves the bigger picture DP issue, but reducing the total keeps it from being nearly unlimited for each fight.
The wording for Patient Defense seems off to me. Kinda wish the free version was BA to Dodge, and the 1DP version was BA to disengage + dodge.
I’m pleasantly surprised. It doesn’t have all of the tings that I would have wanted but I think they did make improvements over 2014 and especially over the 1st UA. I think they went in the right direction.
Some might say that the Metabolism thing at 2nd isn’t enough but I think it will help. It’s basically a free short rest DP recovery. And you still get your DP on a SR when you do take it. If you are 8th level and have 8 DP that’s up to 16 DP without a SR.
The loss of Weapon Masteries isn’t great but it made Open hand’s OHT almost useless. But they still could have done something with it.
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I've only given it a quick look so far but it seems like an improvement overall, the things that stand out to me are:
Overall I'm tentatively positive, but I'll need to dig into way more and try to organise some playtesting to give it a proper shake. Still some areas to improve but much better than the frankly insulting update we got before.
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wraps of unarmed prowess, +1/2/3
i thought so too. and then i remembered that i've been saying monk's thing should be mobility. from that perspective, it seems right that dash and disengage should be bonus actions. dodge is something to pivot to, something to focus on. seems about right.
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Bonus action Dodge is also really good for even a two level dip; I ran into this problem when trying to do my own take on an updated Monk, as it'd just be multiclass gold for many classes since some just don't have many bonus actions.
For example, while it would slow their spell progression a bit, a Wizard could become a mobile, fully skilled melee martial artist that would effectively have almost always on, concentration free blur on top of all their other defence options like shield etc. While it might be nice to see some new popular multiclass dips, it should be for thematic and fun reasons, not power.
Disengage being free was the way to go, and I'm happy to be able to bonus action Dash for free, though I do still feel like it shouldn't be free to double-Dash with a Monk's base speed (a Monk single Dashing can already outpace a double-Dashing Rogue) but if it keeps the wording simple it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on. 😉
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Monks best gameplay is now clearly a skirmisher. For years we have debated were they really fit. With free disengage as a bonus action it’s clear they fit that play style best now. Monks should be using hit a run tactics more than trying to deal additional damage with with their bonus action. Anyone trying to Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, Deflect Attack every round is going to run out of points fast. Now they should attempt SS and if they succeed then FoB, but if they fail disengage and run away. The free bonus action attack should be used only when you believe it could kill or help the enemy before it’s turn or the disengage wouldn’t get you out of its range. Monks high mobility as hit and run skirmishers should be on display with this new design. This is not the play style I prefer for the monk, but it is the one the guided by the tools they have been given.
For me these are features rather than bugs. A Str Fighter might also want a 2-level Barb dip for Reckless for example. 2 level Monk dip for a BA unarmed strike could be a lot of fun on a Moon Druid, giving them a grapple or shove attempt before they multiattack!
Dodge is too strong a feature to make it a free bonus action. Keeping a ki cost for that is fair.
Being able to disengage or dash as a bonus action is fine.
I really like this Monk incarnation. I'd definitely play it.
Half-Drow Shadow Monk.
That's why I'm "concerned" rather than denouncing it; it's a tough thing to judge so early though. I think part of the issue is that they've lifted some restrictions that, while great for Monk, may also make it more exploitable for multiclassing as well.
For example, all of the bonus action attacks are now completely unrestricted in when you use them; a good boon for pure Monk, but also fantastic on any multiclass with a class that didn't have many bonus actions of its own. I think it might make more sense to meet in the middle somewhere, for example, bonus action attacks can be used after the Attack, Dash, Dodge, or any Monk action.
After all, the Monk's access to extra unarmed strikes is supposed to be compensating for our lack of weapon attacks (and weapon mastery) but a Fighter with two shortswords using Nick can make five attacks without Action Surging. And I'm not even sure what kind of exploits we could see from casters that could do something like steel wind strike followed by a Flurry of Blows (there's almost definitely something even stronger than that).
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Wow, just read through the Monk class. I have to say this is, at least in my opinion, a dramatic improvement over the previous UA content.
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There will always be things that are exploitive for multiclassing. That can be dealt with by DMs at their tables.
We shouldn't compromise the fun of playing a single class by focusing on what might happen through multiclassing.
On the first part, completely agree, BA dodge is way too powerful to not cost a resource.
For the latter part, the double dash being free is totally fine (Rogues get that too) and in fact monk speed makes it even better because you can get in and out of most creatures' melee/move radius with a single dash/disengage and still have your action free.