Preserving/Defiling need to be reworked as world-specific game mechanics that are available to all arcane spellcasters, at all times, regardless of subclass. Defiling especially, because that is the entire point of it. That it's the easy way, the careless way, that it is what reduced the world of Dark Sun to the near-lifeless place it is today. Not feats, not backgrounds, not classes -- it needs to be an absolutely pervasive mechanic that is tied to Dark Sun itself.
Just because there is specific subclasses tied to preserving/defiling, doesn’t mean that they won’t make it a mechanic.
It shouldn't be tied to any subclasses at all. It's as pervasive in Dark Sun as the Mists are in Ravenloft.
And in thinking more about it, and digging thru old Dark Sun stuff, I've realized that the Druid is fine -- there's always been a group of Druids in the setting seeking to trying to restore life to the lands, and it fits that well. It's really only Defiling where my issues actually lie.
Preserving/Defiling need to be reworked as world-specific game mechanics that are available to all arcane spellcasters, at all times, regardless of subclass. Defiling especially, because that is the entire point of it. That it's the easy way, the careless way, that it is what reduced the world of Dark Sun to the near-lifeless place it is today. Not feats, not backgrounds, not classes -- it needs to be an absolutely pervasive mechanic that is tied to Dark Sun itself.
Thats not how their design elements work in 5e. Most player options are not hardcoded into a setting. Its an extra planar game world, and people might interact from other places, but also people want to be able to use these player mechanics in other official game settings or homebrewed settings.
And also, as has been said, the game needs to work and be interesting for more than just a subset of classes.
Darksun was never accessable by planar magic. This is part of why they should not try to refresh old worlds. They can't possibly make most people happy.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I shot down someone else talking about a wizard being counted as a druid being ignored in some movies. That's irrelevant. I even said it's outside the scope of the discussion.
What is not irrelevant is that druids are unpopular in D&D. That's fact, and it's been backed up by data from D&D beyond several times. Here's a look at one of the instances that's right here on DDB, showing druid performing poorly in comparison to most classes. Of the core classes only Sorcerer and Monk performed worse. Monk was notoriously bad in 2014, no shocker nobody played it. Sorcerer is sort of considered a discount wizard with a worse spell list, so no shocker that sorcerer performed worse as well. Artificer isn't core, is kinda crap, etc etc.
So, WOTC has to decide...do they gamble spending dev cycles on a class that isn't guaranteed to generate excitement, or do they focus on things that they know people want. It's an easy call. Druid is a gamble. You may not like that, but it's the truth.
I wrote that the problem related to the popularity of the class in 5e does exist. I even specifically pointed out that the problem was in the implementation of the class. One of the most well-known problems was with conjuration spells (such as conjure animals).
But in previous editions this problem did not exist.
I have very strong opinions on both the Druid and Sorcerer. Namely that Defiling/Preserving should not be tied to subclasses.
Darksun is not my cuppa tea, but I don't see how any other magic classes even work with preserving and defiling tied to the subclass unless those other classes are out right banned. Broad bans of core content is going to have many players and DMs checking out. I dont think that people who are sitting on the fence are going to say sign me up for a game where wizards, clerics, bard, rangers, paladins are cut, and you can only play one subclass of sorc, warlock and druid.
Preserving and defiling need to be game mechanics in that world, not subclass 'features' or else it just is not darksun regardlTress of what they call it.
I shot down someone else talking about a wizard being counted as a druid being ignored in some movies. That's irrelevant. I even said it's outside the scope of the discussion.
What is not irrelevant is that druids are unpopular in D&D. That's fact, and it's been backed up by data from D&D beyond several times. Here's a look at one of the instances that's right here on DDB, showing druid performing poorly in comparison to most classes. Of the core classes only Sorcerer and Monk performed worse. Monk was notoriously bad in 2014, no shocker nobody played it. Sorcerer is sort of considered a discount wizard with a worse spell list, so no shocker that sorcerer performed worse as well. Artificer isn't core, is kinda crap, etc etc.
So, WOTC has to decide...do they gamble spending dev cycles on a class that isn't guaranteed to generate excitement, or do they focus on things that they know people want. It's an easy call. Druid is a gamble. You may not like that, but it's the truth.
Re: Unpopularity of Druids. This is true for the 2014 Druid. However, that says nothing about Druids in previous editions of D&D or AD&D.
The media discussion is somewhat relevant because many people seek entertainment to live out fantasies based on characters that they think of as cool or aspirational. This is precisely why successful media franchises spawn merchandise opportunities in the form of costumes, video games, etc. After the Phantom Menace movie came out in 1999, didn't a bunch of people want to cosplay Darth Maul? RPGs are a success in part b/c they allow people to live their power fantasies related to media they have watched/read in the past. Before Star Wars existed, nobody knew what the heck a "Jedi" was. While the first trilogy largely predated the birth of role-playing games, after the time Lucas made the second trilogy, the Star Wars RPG had a market. While not hugely successful, that RPG proves that people role-play based on characters they have seen elsewhere. Mass media, particularly films and T.V. shows, are the best ways to reach a bunch of people with stories that they later want to emulate via RPGs, cosplay, video games, T-shirts, etc.
Going back to Druids relative lack of popularity.... Part of the problem being is that WotC management did not time the release of 2024 Druid very well with their film, "Honor Amongst Thieves." Another problem being that the film did not actually follow RAW in a big way. Druids in D&D cannot Wildshape into Monstrosities, which the Owlbear is. However, just checking the DDB website entry for Owlbear, it is one the most commented on creatures. Could this be b/c it has been part of D&D media for decades? Could this be b/c the Druid in "Honor Amongst Thieves" could change into Owlbear form? So they missed an opportunity there by not providing a subclass of Druid in D&D 5.5 that allowed for this. Again, WotC missed the boat on meeting their audience with the kind of fantasy the audience was looking for.
I have very strong opinions on both the Druid and Sorcerer. Namely that Defiling/Preserving should not be tied to subclasses.
This was my initial reaction, that they are throwing wide-ranging mechanics into subclasses and calling it a day (psionics anyone?).
But I could see this working alongside other mechanics: namely, a rule in Dark Sun that casting is tied to defiling. That's the default. And then maybe you can take a feat or something to be a preserver (I liked that in 4e, preservation was something you really had to work to achieve). Then the sorcerer is just an exploiter of defiling, and the druid is a natural preserver not requiring the feat. I do think that having a few builds that explicitly play into this setting feature can be a good way to highlight it and/or let players really lean into it.
This is what I'm hoping for anyway. And if we don't get it, it's probably how I'll houserule it.
It shouldn't be tied to any subclasses at all. It's as pervasive in Dark Sun as the Mists are in Ravenloft.
And in thinking more about it, and digging thru old Dark Sun stuff, I've realized that the Druid is fine -- there's always been a group of Druids in the setting seeking to trying to restore life to the lands, and it fits that well. It's really only Defiling where my issues actually lie.
Thats not how their design elements work in 5e. Most player options are not hardcoded into a setting. Its an extra planar game world, and people might interact from other places, but also people want to be able to use these player mechanics in other official game settings or homebrewed settings.
And also, as has been said, the game needs to work and be interesting for more than just a subset of classes.
Darksun was never accessable by planar magic. This is part of why they should not try to refresh old worlds. They can't possibly make most people happy.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
True.
Re: Unpopularity of Druids. This is true for the 2014 Druid. However, that says nothing about Druids in previous editions of D&D or AD&D.
The media discussion is somewhat relevant because many people seek entertainment to live out fantasies based on characters that they think of as cool or aspirational. This is precisely why successful media franchises spawn merchandise opportunities in the form of costumes, video games, etc. After the Phantom Menace movie came out in 1999, didn't a bunch of people want to cosplay Darth Maul? RPGs are a success in part b/c they allow people to live their power fantasies related to media they have watched/read in the past. Before Star Wars existed, nobody knew what the heck a "Jedi" was. While the first trilogy largely predated the birth of role-playing games, after the time Lucas made the second trilogy, the Star Wars RPG had a market. While not hugely successful, that RPG proves that people role-play based on characters they have seen elsewhere. Mass media, particularly films and T.V. shows, are the best ways to reach a bunch of people with stories that they later want to emulate via RPGs, cosplay, video games, T-shirts, etc.
Going back to Druids relative lack of popularity.... Part of the problem being is that WotC management did not time the release of 2024 Druid very well with their film, "Honor Amongst Thieves." Another problem being that the film did not actually follow RAW in a big way. Druids in D&D cannot Wildshape into Monstrosities, which the Owlbear is. However, just checking the DDB website entry for Owlbear, it is one the most commented on creatures. Could this be b/c it has been part of D&D media for decades? Could this be b/c the Druid in "Honor Amongst Thieves" could change into Owlbear form? So they missed an opportunity there by not providing a subclass of Druid in D&D 5.5 that allowed for this. Again, WotC missed the boat on meeting their audience with the kind of fantasy the audience was looking for.
This was my initial reaction, that they are throwing wide-ranging mechanics into subclasses and calling it a day (psionics anyone?).
But I could see this working alongside other mechanics: namely, a rule in Dark Sun that casting is tied to defiling. That's the default. And then maybe you can take a feat or something to be a preserver (I liked that in 4e, preservation was something you really had to work to achieve). Then the sorcerer is just an exploiter of defiling, and the druid is a natural preserver not requiring the feat. I do think that having a few builds that explicitly play into this setting feature can be a good way to highlight it and/or let players really lean into it.
This is what I'm hoping for anyway. And if we don't get it, it's probably how I'll houserule it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm