Huh, this is pretty interesting. I hadn't thought about it before, but what if there were an invocation with a prerequisite of 19th level that let you cast your 6th-level Mystic Arcanum twice per long rest? And another one with a prerequisite of 20th level that did the same thing for your 7th-level Arcanum? Essentially mimicking when more traditional full casters get their second spell slots of those levels.
I would prefer a bit more flexibility than just an additional casting but would love invocations that grants an additional 6th/7th level Mystic Arcanum at levels appropriate to a full caster. This was if you want to be the full caster replacement in your party, you can lean more into that role.
Yeah, that's even better. I'd also like to see an invocation that gives the warlock an additional spell slot, or some similar mechanic, since (from what I've seen of people's opinions on here) warlocks at high levels get starved for spell slots. I'm a new DM and have played in a couple campaigns, but have never reached tiers 3-4 with a warlock in the party so I'm partially working from other people's opinions. That said, my wife is playing a warlock in the campaign I'm running now, and I want her to feel like playing a warlock 1-20 is just as valuable to the team as multiclassing into sorcerer or bard would be, so bouncing these ideas around is giving me some good options!
Yeah, that's even better. I'd also like to see an invocation that gives the warlock an additional spell slot, or some similar mechanic, since (from what I've seen of people's opinions on here) warlocks at high levels get starved for spell slots. I'm a new DM and have played in a couple campaigns, but have never reached tiers 3-4 with a warlock in the party so I'm partially working from other people's opinions. That said, my wife is playing a warlock in the campaign I'm running now, and I want her to feel like playing a warlock 1-20 is just as valuable to the team as multiclassing into sorcerer or bard would be, so bouncing these ideas around is giving me some good options!
Welcome to DMing! It's fun and rewarding and also gives you the opportunity to homebrew as much or as little as you want to tweak classes. Warlock is definitely a class that benefits from a homebrew tweak here or there. Be careful not to do too many changes to core mechanics as that can quickly throw off the balance.
For instance I advocate for the following homebrew updates for Warlock-
Invocations that grant the use of a new spell also grant a once a day usage of the spell that does not require one of your precious pact slots.
Invocations that grant a new spell can be changed for a more thematically appropriate spell of the same spell level of the original spell.
I find those 2 simple changes alone have gone a fair ways in closing the power gap in the mid tier. That being said, I would NOT advocate for having the above changes in addition to homebrew for instance doubling the number of Warlock slots you have at all levels which I have seen some on the forums advocate. By itself this could be ok, but along with the changes I propose above, it would make a very game breaking Warlock in my opinion.
All that being said, there is very little incentive in the base mechanics for warlocks after level 17 when they get their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum. Eldritch Master is a very poor capstone ability especially in comparison to what some of the other full casters receive in their 18-20 levels- Clerics get an extra once a week, consequence free Wish spell equivalent, Druids get functionally unlimited hit points and Wizards gain at will 1st & 2nd level spells and 2 extra 3rd level slots with no preparation. Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Maybe it's because they anticipated lots of multiclassing between the three classes and so didn't bother providing decent capstones. ;)
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely take that into consideration. I don't want to change the warlock to the point of being busted/silly, I just want to incentivize staying warlock into the high levels, and I think those two changes are very appropriate.
Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Maybe it's because they anticipated lots of multiclassing between the three classes and so didn't bother providing decent capstones. ;)
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely take that into consideration. I don't want to change the warlock to the point of being busted/silly, I just want to incentivize staying warlock into the high levels, and I think those two changes are very appropriate.
I actually think you are very close to correct on that point. The charisma casters all seem to naturally fit well multi-classing with each other so you may very well be right.
Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Maybe it's because they anticipated lots of multiclassing between the three classes and so didn't bother providing decent capstones. ;)
This seems to be true...
Two Levels of Sorcerer = Cantrips and useful spells
Two Levels of Warlock = Creepy features, Pact Magic short rest Spell Slots, and Eldritch Invocations
Two Levels of Paladin = Weapons, Armor & SMITES
Two Levels of Bard = Interesting support spells & Jack of All Trades for skills.
...save for paladins, who get some pretty amazing Level 20 capstones, there isn't much cause to go the full progression for the other Charisma classes.
Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Maybe it's because they anticipated lots of multiclassing between the three classes and so didn't bother providing decent capstones. ;)
This seems to be true...
Two Levels of Sorcerer = Cantrips and useful spells
Two Levels of Warlock = Creepy features, Pact Magic short rest Spell Slots, and Eldritch Invocations
Two Levels of Paladin = Weapons, Armor & SMITES
Two Levels of Bard = Interesting support spells & Jack of All Trades for skills.
...save for paladins, who get some pretty amazing Level 20 capstones, there isn't much cause to go the full progression for the other Charisma classes.
Would love to see paladin style capstones for the Warlock where they become like the living avatar of their patron for 1 minute. Paladin capstones are awesome.
I accidently let a player choose eldritch blast as a sorcerer and then gave her a homebrew magic item that added agonizing blast. I thought it was a bit strong at first but it wasn't so bad once they faced a monster that was immune to force damage lol.
WOW I just found this UA (we live by House Rule # 1 - Fun Factor !) so a lot of the spell/feature swapping would fit right in, along with the enhancements We have a pool of 5 DM's, some of us will use them and some will not, but we'll all have fun. I'm starting work on the homebrew stuff in the morning
I have players
a 16th level ranger who will lover it,
a 14th level cleric who will hate it,
a 14th level fighter who will love it
a 12th level Paladin who will hate it
a 13th level Druid I'm not sure which way
I play (and think my different DM will allow)
a 7th level Bard who will love it,
a 5th level paladin who will love it
a 7th level Rogue/ 1st level Sorcerer who will love it
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
I've been thinking in regards to the Eldritch Armor invocation, I really wish it keyed off the blade pact features more. Something like an hour ritual to bond an armor set the same way you do you pact weapon, the ability to store it in the same extra dimensional space as the pact weapon, and the ability to when you use an action to summon your pact weapon summon the armor and instantly don it. Two of the biggest memes I've seen in regards to this invocation in celebrating the chance to be a power ranger, or Kaman Rider, and the second being walking in to a shop and stealing an armor set by instantly popping it on and turning invisible.
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
come on now, spirit guardians stacked on both the cleric and paladin are completely balanced. Nothing at all overpowered with that lol
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
come on now, spirit guardians stacked on both the cleric and paladin are completely balanced. Nothing at all overpowered with that lol
This brings up an interesting point - do those auras stack if a creature is in both auras' area of effect? If I'm going by the reasoning that two different clerics can't simultaneously Bane the same creature for a 2d4 penalty to attacks and saves, I don't think the aforementioned creature would take damage from both auras - just the higher level/most recently cast one.
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
come on now, spirit guardians stacked on both the cleric and paladin are completely balanced. Nothing at all overpowered with that lol
This brings up an interesting point - do those auras stack if a creature is in both auras' area of effect? If I'm going by the reasoning that two different clerics can't simultaneously Bane the same creature for a 2d4 penalty to attacks and saves, I don't think the aforementioned creature would take damage from both auras - just the higher level/most recently cast one.
Bane is a debuff. Spirit Guardians is AOE damage. Fireballs stack, no reason to think S.Guardians wouldnt
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
come on now, spirit guardians stacked on both the cleric and paladin are completely balanced. Nothing at all overpowered with that lol
This brings up an interesting point - do those auras stack if a creature is in both auras' area of effect? If I'm going by the reasoning that two different clerics can't simultaneously Bane the same creature for a 2d4 penalty to attacks and saves, I don't think the aforementioned creature would take damage from both auras - just the higher level/most recently cast one.
Bane is a debuff. Spirit Guardians is AOE damage. Fireballs stack, no reason to think S.Guardians wouldnt
There is no situation in which fireballs are ever afforded an opportunity to stack; fireball is instantaneous. Spirit Guardians has a duration, so the rules regarding stacking effects from the same spell cast twice do apply. In the overlapping area, the creature would take the higher damage if the two castings were at different levels, but it would only suffer the effect once.
According to the DMG (and an errata to it), multiple Spirit Guardians to not stack:
Chapter 8
Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: “Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the ‘Combining Magical Effects’ section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.”
Yeah, that's even better. I'd also like to see an invocation that gives the warlock an additional spell slot, or some similar mechanic, since (from what I've seen of people's opinions on here) warlocks at high levels get starved for spell slots. I'm a new DM and have played in a couple campaigns, but have never reached tiers 3-4 with a warlock in the party so I'm partially working from other people's opinions. That said, my wife is playing a warlock in the campaign I'm running now, and I want her to feel like playing a warlock 1-20 is just as valuable to the team as multiclassing into sorcerer or bard would be, so bouncing these ideas around is giving me some good options!
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Welcome to DMing! It's fun and rewarding and also gives you the opportunity to homebrew as much or as little as you want to tweak classes. Warlock is definitely a class that benefits from a homebrew tweak here or there. Be careful not to do too many changes to core mechanics as that can quickly throw off the balance.
For instance I advocate for the following homebrew updates for Warlock-
I find those 2 simple changes alone have gone a fair ways in closing the power gap in the mid tier. That being said, I would NOT advocate for having the above changes in addition to homebrew for instance doubling the number of Warlock slots you have at all levels which I have seen some on the forums advocate. By itself this could be ok, but along with the changes I propose above, it would make a very game breaking Warlock in my opinion.
All that being said, there is very little incentive in the base mechanics for warlocks after level 17 when they get their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum. Eldritch Master is a very poor capstone ability especially in comparison to what some of the other full casters receive in their 18-20 levels- Clerics get an extra once a week, consequence free Wish spell equivalent, Druids get functionally unlimited hit points and Wizards gain at will 1st & 2nd level spells and 2 extra 3rd level slots with no preparation. Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks are definitely the late level losers among the full caster classes.
Maybe it's because they anticipated lots of multiclassing between the three classes and so didn't bother providing decent capstones. ;)
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely take that into consideration. I don't want to change the warlock to the point of being busted/silly, I just want to incentivize staying warlock into the high levels, and I think those two changes are very appropriate.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
I actually think you are very close to correct on that point. The charisma casters all seem to naturally fit well multi-classing with each other so you may very well be right.
This seems to be true...
Two Levels of Sorcerer = Cantrips and useful spells
Two Levels of Warlock = Creepy features, Pact Magic short rest Spell Slots, and Eldritch Invocations
Two Levels of Paladin = Weapons, Armor & SMITES
Two Levels of Bard = Interesting support spells & Jack of All Trades for skills.
...save for paladins, who get some pretty amazing Level 20 capstones, there isn't much cause to go the full progression for the other Charisma classes.
Would love to see paladin style capstones for the Warlock where they become like the living avatar of their patron for 1 minute. Paladin capstones are awesome.
Yaasss!!!
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I accidently let a player choose eldritch blast as a sorcerer and then gave her a homebrew magic item that added agonizing blast. I thought it was a bit strong at first but it wasn't so bad once they faced a monster that was immune to force damage lol.
WOW I just found this UA (we live by House Rule # 1 - Fun Factor !) so a lot of the spell/feature swapping would fit right in, along with the enhancements
We have a pool of 5 DM's, some of us will use them and some will not, but we'll all have fun.
I'm starting work on the homebrew stuff in the morning
I have players
I play (and think my different DM will allow)
Why would the Cleric and Paladin hate it?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I can see that actually, the Cleric changes were honestly my least rated change set, and a big problem I had with it was that they borrowed so much of the Paladin Unique spells. So the Cleric might dislike it because they are stepping on the Paladins toes.
As a variant rule, it only becomes questionable when a Cleric and Paladin share a party, either because they feel the other in invading their wheelhouse or because they realize they can stack Aura Spells that were never intended to stack.
I've been thinking in regards to the Eldritch Armor invocation, I really wish it keyed off the blade pact features more. Something like an hour ritual to bond an armor set the same way you do you pact weapon, the ability to store it in the same extra dimensional space as the pact weapon, and the ability to when you use an action to summon your pact weapon summon the armor and instantly don it. Two of the biggest memes I've seen in regards to this invocation in celebrating the chance to be a power ranger, or Kaman Rider, and the second being walking in to a shop and stealing an armor set by instantly popping it on and turning invisible.
Actually because they would prefer to only have 1 book at the table. not a comment on the content of the UA at all
come on now, spirit guardians stacked on both the cleric and paladin are completely balanced. Nothing at all overpowered with that lol
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This brings up an interesting point - do those auras stack if a creature is in both auras' area of effect? If I'm going by the reasoning that two different clerics can't simultaneously Bane the same creature for a 2d4 penalty to attacks and saves, I don't think the aforementioned creature would take damage from both auras - just the higher level/most recently cast one.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Per the video with Jeremy Crawford, this is instead of using Hunter's mark (This is Hunter's mark without concentration.)
Bane is a debuff. Spirit Guardians is AOE damage. Fireballs stack, no reason to think S.Guardians wouldnt
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There is no situation in which fireballs are ever afforded an opportunity to stack; fireball is instantaneous. Spirit Guardians has a duration, so the rules regarding stacking effects from the same spell cast twice do apply. In the overlapping area, the creature would take the higher damage if the two castings were at different levels, but it would only suffer the effect once.
According to the DMG (and an errata to it), multiple Spirit Guardians to not stack:
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Ahh, so more 'concept' than 'content'