That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
From a pure damage perspective, Rogue Sneak Attack is about on par with a Fighters Extra Attack progression until the Tier 4 levels. It ebbs and flows a bit but they end up about the same if you compare a shortsword Rogue vs a Greatsword Fighter (and that's without GWM).
Just out of curiosity, what level range are your players?
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
This would make Psionics much more limited in their option compared to other spell casters, it would certainly be more compared to monks.
Yes, that is my proposal exactly. Fewer options makes more sense for them organically anyway. That would also balance things so that a 1st level character having a very limited version of Bigby’s would not be OP since they can’t do everything else too. Fewer powers directed along a more centralized theme with no need for Spell Slots seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to Spellcasting. Almost like each Discipline: Psychokinesis (mind over matter), Psychoportation (travel), Telepathy (mind to mind), Clairsentience (scrying), Psychometabolism (mind over body), and Potentience (energy manipulation) would basically unlock different Class Features if treated more as Subclasses than spells.
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
Keep in mind that the only thing We've seen is the Fighter, the Rogue, and the Wizard (I'm thinking mostly so that the spells can begin being peer reviewed more than anything else).
My guess is that Psionic Barbarians would mostly just be lashing out with raw undiluted Psionic Power anyway, so they wouldn't be using anything even remotely advanced enough to be called 'Spells' or 'Techniques', similar to how the fighter doesn't pack any Psionic Spells outside of a modified "Mage hand" (which really should be turned into a straight ability and not a 'As per the spell' shorthand.
I’m not saying that they should eliminate the basic spell mechanic entirely. If it makes it easier then conceptualize it like this: all of the Psion’s “Spells” are first level and get automatically upcast in a manner similar to the Warlock.
No, similar concept, but instead of all of those points they would get a smaller number of them and there would be no need for “levels” and things would not cost varying numbers of points because everything would automatically be upcast. Very much like Warlocks spell slots/slot levels.
Now take that same basic concept of burning hands auto upcasting. But tone down the damage dice, and have both the Die (like Martial Arts Die) and the number of them (just like burning hands) scale as well as the cone’s size (3rd-5th level spell scaling equivalent =30’ cone, 5th-9th level equivalent =60’ cone). Finally instead of a 1 time use, and make it a 1 minute Concentration Spell kinda like Sunbeam.
Now you have a power that grows with the caster, and instead of counting ”Psi Points” the character pays the 1 “Concentration Point” or whatever no matter what because the Character’s “energy reserve” goes up at the same rate that the Power’s “energy cost” does so it becomes irrelevant.
To further my example now that there’s a cone, so the same for a sphere attack like Fireball and another with a line attack alla Lightning Bolt and package all three options together.
Now, whenever that Psion activates their “Pyrokinetic Ability” for one minute, as long as they maintain concentration, they have their choice of cone, beam, or blast.
Whichever is easiest. Currently every Spell has their own so that might work here too. If putting it on the table is more convenient then whatever.
One could build a column of Psi Mastery Rating that directly mirrors Proficiency Bonus but keeps all of the references in-class and base it off of that.
Heck, even the subclasses are a Pyrokinetic and two telepaths.
Yep, Cantrips=Talents, Invocations=Devotions, Spells would get Powers as substitutions. Basically give them the Monk’s damage die scaling and Subclass at level 3 instead of 1,and some variation of the Sorcerer’s Metamagic to make Metapsionics.
At that point they would have just needed the new progressive “spells”.
Tbh I was thinking more of a combination of Monk and Warlock.
Psi points that regenerate on short rest (on the same progression as monk + 1[so starting with 2]) that can either be used to cast a spell (at the same cost of the four elements monk per level or other psionic abilities that would be tied to disciplines. And then give then their own version Mystic arcanum, but not like the mystic, so that they can match in the later tiers without having to run out of psi points too fast.
This would give the psionic slightly less top-level that the can nova, but would allow pacing better than the warlock since they have the choice to spread their points in smaller portions between short rests.
This would allow the psionic to receive other psionic spells that the other class get in the future, because otherwise there is a chance that suddenly the psionic class would become the worst class to play psionic since the other classes are more likely to gain new toys, since spells are a shared resource between so many classes so Wizard has a greater incentive to create spells.
Tbh I was thinking more of a combination of Monk and Warlock.
Psi points that regenerate on short rest (on the same progression as monk + 1[so starting with 2]) that can either be used to cast a spell (at the same cost of the four elements monk per level or other psionic abilities that would be tied to disciplines. And then give then their own version Mystic arcanum, but not like the mystic, so that they can match in the later tiers without having to run out of psi points too fast.
This would give the psionic slightly less top-level that the can nova, but would allow pacing better than the warlock since they have the choice to spread their points in smaller portions between short rests.
This would allow the psionic to receive other psionic spells that the other class get in the future, because otherwise there is a chance that suddenly the psionic class would become the worst class to play psionic since the other classes are more likely to gain new toys, since spells are a shared resource between so many classes so Wizard has a greater incentive to create spells.
I get that, and from a streamlining standpoint that works. For me, since Psionicists should not actually “Cast Spells” then they therefore cannot use the same spell list that everyone else uses.
the major difference between the Monk and the Sorcerer is that the Sorcerer basically gets both Ki and Spell Slots. That and Metamagic instead of Martial Arts and the Monk pics their Sub at level 3, the Sorcerer at level 1. My idea was to split the difference between Sorcerer and Monk, replace the Sorcerer Spell Slots with something more like Warlock Spell Slots and add on the Eldritch Invocations. Basically Warlock Spell Slots and Eldritch Invocations + Metamagic, and then drop it onto the Monk’s frame without the unarmored movement.
The problem is that the other get Psionic Spell, and if their repertoire grows while the psionic's does not we pretty quick have and Arcan Archer/Scout Rogue vs Ranger discussion where people will keep recommending classes other than psionic to play psionic
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Guytza,
That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
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Yes, you are correct. It is much more than that. I was just picking the one most highly recognizable example I could come up with.
I’m glad you are fine with it working like spells. I, however, am not. (Unless I misunderstood your statement?)
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This would make Psionics much more limited in their option compared to other spell casters, it would certainly be more compared to monks.
From a pure damage perspective, Rogue Sneak Attack is about on par with a Fighters Extra Attack progression until the Tier 4 levels. It ebbs and flows a bit but they end up about the same if you compare a shortsword Rogue vs a Greatsword Fighter (and that's without GWM).
Just out of curiosity, what level range are your players?
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Yes, that is my proposal exactly. Fewer options makes more sense for them organically anyway. That would also balance things so that a 1st level character having a very limited version of Bigby’s would not be OP since they can’t do everything else too. Fewer powers directed along a more centralized theme with no need for Spell Slots seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to Spellcasting. Almost like each Discipline: Psychokinesis (mind over matter), Psychoportation (travel), Telepathy (mind to mind), Clairsentience (scrying), Psychometabolism (mind over body), and Potentience (energy manipulation) would basically unlock different Class Features if treated more as Subclasses than spells.
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Keep in mind that the only thing We've seen is the Fighter, the Rogue, and the Wizard (I'm thinking mostly so that the spells can begin being peer reviewed more than anything else).
My guess is that Psionic Barbarians would mostly just be lashing out with raw undiluted Psionic Power anyway, so they wouldn't be using anything even remotely advanced enough to be called 'Spells' or 'Techniques', similar to how the fighter doesn't pack any Psionic Spells outside of a modified "Mage hand" (which really should be turned into a straight ability and not a 'As per the spell' shorthand.
Psionics is not ki. Psionics should scale like a full casters spells.
True, Ki is physical energy where Psi is mental energy but the basic mechanic would be comparable in function.
Yes, Psionics should scale like a Caster’s spells. They just shouldn’t use the Spell mechanics.
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But even monks use spell mechanics
I’m not saying that they should eliminate the basic spell mechanic entirely. If it makes it easier then conceptualize it like this: all of the Psion’s “Spells” are first level and get automatically upcast in a manner similar to the Warlock.
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Oh I thought you were against the Psion having abilities like the Monk tha for example that cast burning Hands
No, similar concept, but instead of all of those points they would get a smaller number of them and there would be no need for “levels” and things would not cost varying numbers of points because everything would automatically be upcast. Very much like Warlocks spell slots/slot levels.
Now take that same basic concept of burning hands auto upcasting. But tone down the damage dice, and have both the Die (like Martial Arts Die) and the number of them (just like burning hands) scale as well as the cone’s size (3rd-5th level spell scaling equivalent =30’ cone, 5th-9th level equivalent =60’ cone). Finally instead of a 1 time use, and make it a 1 minute Concentration Spell kinda like Sunbeam.
Now you have a power that grows with the caster, and instead of counting ”Psi Points” the character pays the 1 “Concentration Point” or whatever no matter what because the Character’s “energy reserve” goes up at the same rate that the Power’s “energy cost” does so it becomes irrelevant.
To further my example now that there’s a cone, so the same for a sphere attack like Fireball and another with a line attack alla Lightning Bolt and package all three options together.
Now, whenever that Psion activates their “Pyrokinetic Ability” for one minute, as long as they maintain concentration, they have their choice of cone, beam, or blast.
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Would the range then be determined in the psionic table, or would each power discipline have its own upcasting rules
Whichever is easiest. Currently every Spell has their own so that might work here too. If putting it on the table is more convenient then whatever.
One could build a column of Psi Mastery Rating that directly mirrors Proficiency Bonus but keeps all of the references in-class and base it off of that.
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The more I think of it, the more I think the Warlock may have actually been the perfect Psionic.
Alternate Casting feature, Alternate spell list, Customized invocations.
Heck, even the subclasses are a Pyrokinetic and two telepaths.
Yep, Cantrips=Talents, Invocations=Devotions, Spells would get Powers as substitutions. Basically give them the Monk’s damage die scaling and Subclass at level 3 instead of 1,and some variation of the Sorcerer’s Metamagic to make Metapsionics.
At that point they would have just needed the new progressive “spells”.
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Tbh I was thinking more of a combination of Monk and Warlock.
Psi points that regenerate on short rest (on the same progression as monk + 1[so starting with 2]) that can either be used to cast a spell (at the same cost of the four elements monk per level or other psionic abilities that would be tied to disciplines. And then give then their own version Mystic arcanum, but not like the mystic, so that they can match in the later tiers without having to run out of psi points too fast.
This would give the psionic slightly less top-level that the can nova, but would allow pacing better than the warlock since they have the choice to spread their points in smaller portions between short rests.
This would allow the psionic to receive other psionic spells that the other class get in the future, because otherwise there is a chance that suddenly the psionic class would become the worst class to play psionic since the other classes are more likely to gain new toys, since spells are a shared resource between so many classes so Wizard has a greater incentive to create spells.
I get that, and from a streamlining standpoint that works. For me, since Psionicists should not actually “Cast Spells” then they therefore cannot use the same spell list that everyone else uses.
the major difference between the Monk and the Sorcerer is that the Sorcerer basically gets both Ki and Spell Slots. That and Metamagic instead of Martial Arts and the Monk pics their Sub at level 3, the Sorcerer at level 1. My idea was to split the difference between Sorcerer and Monk, replace the Sorcerer Spell Slots with something more like Warlock Spell Slots and add on the Eldritch Invocations.
Basically Warlock Spell Slots and Eldritch Invocations + Metamagic, and then drop it onto the Monk’s frame without the unarmored movement.
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The problem is that the other get Psionic Spell, and if their repertoire grows while the psionic's does not we pretty quick have and Arcan Archer/Scout Rogue vs Ranger discussion where people will keep recommending classes other than psionic to play psionic