Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
You need to have some progression so, since they start with an invisible mage hand that works like a weak telekinesis and then eventually get the much more powerful Telekinesis spell, plus various spells inbetween that are telekinetic in nature like Catapult - the spells do offer a nice way of offering progression. Likewise from the telepathic side chars start with telepathy, move to other divinitation spells like detect thoughts, telepathic bond and eventually Telepathy.
Spells actually does the job very nicely from 1 to 20. So I'm not sure I understand entirely your point.
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I did in fact compare your notes against the UA as promised.
I think your assessment of the Fighter is fairly accurate, Playtesting will let us know if you are correct.
As to the Rogue Subclass... I don’t like it and here’s why: All of the Features are about combat with their Psi blades. (I’m a ‘90s X-Men fan and they will always be “Psi Blades” to me.) I think that type of character would have probably suited the Monk better. I think they really missed an opportunity to do a “Thief of Secrets” and make an awesome “mind reader/thought stealer/trick your mind into not seeing me” type of Character that would have been far cooler. The strict focus on combat makes the Rogue a little too one dimensional for my tastes. One could have made a Character similar enough to this Subclass using an Arcane Trickster+ Shadow Blade+These new “Psionic Spells” (oh it hurts me to type that) To be fair though, this Rogue Subclass could theoretically do it Psi Blades as many times as it likes instead of worrying about spell slots, but it brings nothing to the table besides that.
Thank you, and I agree 100% that the subclass is a clearly driven by the Combat Pillar, adding a bit of Mind Thief flavor would be nice. (and hell yes 90's X-Men)
However, The Rogue Class is already a highly non-combat driven class, they own the exploration pillar in a way that few other classes can but when combat starts they operate in a very 'One trick Pony' mentality, they apply sneak attack. That's basically it. This becomes a problem if your campaign is lacking the exploration pillar or if you feel uncomfortable pulling the Story Spotlight everytime the DM describes a dark hallway.
The most combat centric of the Rogue Subclasses are the Swashbuckler and the Arcane Trickster, the AT is mostly just due to access to spells and so many spells having combat resolution abilities, but the Swashbuckler clearly jumps out of the Exploration pillar and into the Combat Theatre/social pillar. So much so that I could see Swashbucklers not even taking investigation or stealth as expertise skills. In other words, they lose much of their Rogue Flavor in the process.
The Soul Knife is much more of a Combat-Sneak-Rogue which has maintained the Rogue Flavor intact, however they also have a rather high penchant for high intelligence. This does mean that their Investigation skill will be in the stratosphere, along with arcana and history and ...well you get the idea. So their out of combat utility gets inadvertantly buffed in much the same way as the Arcane Tricksters combat capability gets accidentally enhanced.
At the end of the day, do I think the Soul Knife is going to Outdo the Arcane Trickster? No, it is not. The AT access to powerful Control spells (Hideous Laughter or Id Insertion specifically) and the stupidly powerful Booming Blade Sneak Attack will put it well ahead of the Soul Knife. The only reason then to play a Soul Knife is for the Flavor and because "Psionics should not be spells" causing cognitive dissonance in the players mind.
Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
You need to have some progression so, since they start with an invisible mage hand that works like a weak telekinesis and then eventually get the much more powerful Telekinesis spell, plus various spells inbetween that are telekinetic in nature like Catapult - the spells do offer a nice way of offering progression. Likewise from the telepathic side chars start with telepathy, move to other divinitation spells like detect thoughts, telepathic bond and eventually Telepathy.
Spells actually does the job very nicely from 1 to 20. So I'm not sure I understand entirely your point.
Spells merely mimic a more organic progression. For a character that has to learn those spells like a Wizard, that approach makes sense. After Catapult a spell caster has to wait until level 9 to gain access to either Bigby’s Hand or Telekinesis. What I propose would be mashing those three spells together into one power that would be balanced and available to a level one character, but scale up to still be useful to a level 18+ character.
Jean Grey never had to learn a spell, she has innate powers that progressed naturally. Making Jean Grey’s psychic powers work the same way as Dr. Strange’s Spells feels both cheap and lazy.
That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
From a pure damage perspective, Rogue Sneak Attack is about on par with a Fighters Extra Attack progression until the Tier 4 levels. It ebbs and flows a bit but they end up about the same if you compare a shortsword Rogue vs a Greatsword Fighter (and that's without GWM).
Just out of curiosity, what level range are your players?
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
This would make Psionics much more limited in their option compared to other spell casters, it would certainly be more compared to monks.
Yes, that is my proposal exactly. Fewer options makes more sense for them organically anyway. That would also balance things so that a 1st level character having a very limited version of Bigby’s would not be OP since they can’t do everything else too. Fewer powers directed along a more centralized theme with no need for Spell Slots seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to Spellcasting. Almost like each Discipline: Psychokinesis (mind over matter), Psychoportation (travel), Telepathy (mind to mind), Clairsentience (scrying), Psychometabolism (mind over body), and Potentience (energy manipulation) would basically unlock different Class Features if treated more as Subclasses than spells.
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
Keep in mind that the only thing We've seen is the Fighter, the Rogue, and the Wizard (I'm thinking mostly so that the spells can begin being peer reviewed more than anything else).
My guess is that Psionic Barbarians would mostly just be lashing out with raw undiluted Psionic Power anyway, so they wouldn't be using anything even remotely advanced enough to be called 'Spells' or 'Techniques', similar to how the fighter doesn't pack any Psionic Spells outside of a modified "Mage hand" (which really should be turned into a straight ability and not a 'As per the spell' shorthand.
I’m not saying that they should eliminate the basic spell mechanic entirely. If it makes it easier then conceptualize it like this: all of the Psion’s “Spells” are first level and get automatically upcast in a manner similar to the Warlock.
No, similar concept, but instead of all of those points they would get a smaller number of them and there would be no need for “levels” and things would not cost varying numbers of points because everything would automatically be upcast. Very much like Warlocks spell slots/slot levels.
Now take that same basic concept of burning hands auto upcasting. But tone down the damage dice, and have both the Die (like Martial Arts Die) and the number of them (just like burning hands) scale as well as the cone’s size (3rd-5th level spell scaling equivalent =30’ cone, 5th-9th level equivalent =60’ cone). Finally instead of a 1 time use, and make it a 1 minute Concentration Spell kinda like Sunbeam.
Now you have a power that grows with the caster, and instead of counting ”Psi Points” the character pays the 1 “Concentration Point” or whatever no matter what because the Character’s “energy reserve” goes up at the same rate that the Power’s “energy cost” does so it becomes irrelevant.
To further my example now that there’s a cone, so the same for a sphere attack like Fireball and another with a line attack alla Lightning Bolt and package all three options together.
Now, whenever that Psion activates their “Pyrokinetic Ability” for one minute, as long as they maintain concentration, they have their choice of cone, beam, or blast.
Whichever is easiest. Currently every Spell has their own so that might work here too. If putting it on the table is more convenient then whatever.
One could build a column of Psi Mastery Rating that directly mirrors Proficiency Bonus but keeps all of the references in-class and base it off of that.
You need to have some progression so, since they start with an invisible mage hand that works like a weak telekinesis and then eventually get the much more powerful Telekinesis spell, plus various spells inbetween that are telekinetic in nature like Catapult - the spells do offer a nice way of offering progression. Likewise from the telepathic side chars start with telepathy, move to other divinitation spells like detect thoughts, telepathic bond and eventually Telepathy.
Spells actually does the job very nicely from 1 to 20. So I'm not sure I understand entirely your point.
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Thank you, and I agree 100% that the subclass is a clearly driven by the Combat Pillar, adding a bit of Mind Thief flavor would be nice. (and hell yes 90's X-Men)
However, The Rogue Class is already a highly non-combat driven class, they own the exploration pillar in a way that few other classes can but when combat starts they operate in a very 'One trick Pony' mentality, they apply sneak attack. That's basically it. This becomes a problem if your campaign is lacking the exploration pillar or if you feel uncomfortable pulling the Story Spotlight everytime the DM describes a dark hallway.
The most combat centric of the Rogue Subclasses are the Swashbuckler and the Arcane Trickster, the AT is mostly just due to access to spells and so many spells having combat resolution abilities, but the Swashbuckler clearly jumps out of the Exploration pillar and into the Combat Theatre/social pillar. So much so that I could see Swashbucklers not even taking investigation or stealth as expertise skills. In other words, they lose much of their Rogue Flavor in the process.
The Soul Knife is much more of a Combat-Sneak-Rogue which has maintained the Rogue Flavor intact, however they also have a rather high penchant for high intelligence. This does mean that their Investigation skill will be in the stratosphere, along with arcana and history and ...well you get the idea. So their out of combat utility gets inadvertantly buffed in much the same way as the Arcane Tricksters combat capability gets accidentally enhanced.
At the end of the day, do I think the Soul Knife is going to Outdo the Arcane Trickster? No, it is not. The AT access to powerful Control spells (Hideous Laughter or Id Insertion specifically) and the stupidly powerful Booming Blade Sneak Attack will put it well ahead of the Soul Knife. The only reason then to play a Soul Knife is for the Flavor and because "Psionics should not be spells" causing cognitive dissonance in the players mind.
Spells merely mimic a more organic progression. For a character that has to learn those spells like a Wizard, that approach makes sense. After Catapult a spell caster has to wait until level 9 to gain access to either Bigby’s Hand or Telekinesis. What I propose would be mashing those three spells together into one power that would be balanced and available to a level one character, but scale up to still be useful to a level 18+ character.
Jean Grey never had to learn a spell, she has innate powers that progressed naturally. Making Jean Grey’s psychic powers work the same way as Dr. Strange’s Spells feels both cheap and lazy.
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Psionics is not just jean grey, it is way more than that. It scaling like spells I am perfectly fine with.
Guytza,
That’s fair I suppose. I have never noticed Rogues having a difficulty distinguishing themselves in combat though. Especially when there are three of them in the party all helping each other like in the campaign I am currently DMing. (Trickster+Assassin+Mastermind means they are generally mulching encounters so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed)
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Yes, you are correct. It is much more than that. I was just picking the one most highly recognizable example I could come up with.
I’m glad you are fine with it working like spells. I, however, am not. (Unless I misunderstood your statement?)
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This would make Psionics much more limited in their option compared to other spell casters, it would certainly be more compared to monks.
From a pure damage perspective, Rogue Sneak Attack is about on par with a Fighters Extra Attack progression until the Tier 4 levels. It ebbs and flows a bit but they end up about the same if you compare a shortsword Rogue vs a Greatsword Fighter (and that's without GWM).
Just out of curiosity, what level range are your players?
The other problem with "psionics == spells" is that the barbarian suddenly doesn't have access to psionic abilities. I don't know if this is consistent with previous editions?
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Yes, that is my proposal exactly. Fewer options makes more sense for them organically anyway. That would also balance things so that a 1st level character having a very limited version of Bigby’s would not be OP since they can’t do everything else too. Fewer powers directed along a more centralized theme with no need for Spell Slots seems like a perfectly reasonable alternative to Spellcasting. Almost like each Discipline: Psychokinesis (mind over matter), Psychoportation (travel), Telepathy (mind to mind), Clairsentience (scrying), Psychometabolism (mind over body), and Potentience (energy manipulation) would basically unlock different Class Features if treated more as Subclasses than spells.
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Keep in mind that the only thing We've seen is the Fighter, the Rogue, and the Wizard (I'm thinking mostly so that the spells can begin being peer reviewed more than anything else).
My guess is that Psionic Barbarians would mostly just be lashing out with raw undiluted Psionic Power anyway, so they wouldn't be using anything even remotely advanced enough to be called 'Spells' or 'Techniques', similar to how the fighter doesn't pack any Psionic Spells outside of a modified "Mage hand" (which really should be turned into a straight ability and not a 'As per the spell' shorthand.
Psionics is not ki. Psionics should scale like a full casters spells.
True, Ki is physical energy where Psi is mental energy but the basic mechanic would be comparable in function.
Yes, Psionics should scale like a Caster’s spells. They just shouldn’t use the Spell mechanics.
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But even monks use spell mechanics
I’m not saying that they should eliminate the basic spell mechanic entirely. If it makes it easier then conceptualize it like this: all of the Psion’s “Spells” are first level and get automatically upcast in a manner similar to the Warlock.
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Oh I thought you were against the Psion having abilities like the Monk tha for example that cast burning Hands
No, similar concept, but instead of all of those points they would get a smaller number of them and there would be no need for “levels” and things would not cost varying numbers of points because everything would automatically be upcast. Very much like Warlocks spell slots/slot levels.
Now take that same basic concept of burning hands auto upcasting. But tone down the damage dice, and have both the Die (like Martial Arts Die) and the number of them (just like burning hands) scale as well as the cone’s size (3rd-5th level spell scaling equivalent =30’ cone, 5th-9th level equivalent =60’ cone). Finally instead of a 1 time use, and make it a 1 minute Concentration Spell kinda like Sunbeam.
Now you have a power that grows with the caster, and instead of counting ”Psi Points” the character pays the 1 “Concentration Point” or whatever no matter what because the Character’s “energy reserve” goes up at the same rate that the Power’s “energy cost” does so it becomes irrelevant.
To further my example now that there’s a cone, so the same for a sphere attack like Fireball and another with a line attack alla Lightning Bolt and package all three options together.
Now, whenever that Psion activates their “Pyrokinetic Ability” for one minute, as long as they maintain concentration, they have their choice of cone, beam, or blast.
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Would the range then be determined in the psionic table, or would each power discipline have its own upcasting rules
Whichever is easiest. Currently every Spell has their own so that might work here too. If putting it on the table is more convenient then whatever.
One could build a column of Psi Mastery Rating that directly mirrors Proficiency Bonus but keeps all of the references in-class and base it off of that.
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The more I think of it, the more I think the Warlock may have actually been the perfect Psionic.
Alternate Casting feature, Alternate spell list, Customized invocations.
Heck, even the subclasses are a Pyrokinetic and two telepaths.