For the more malevolent ones, yea basically. But it could also just as easily work for gods of love or even knowledge (Because usually people who crave knowledge have some sort of desire that requires knowledge, right?). channel divinity could maybe be like a heightened trance/enchantment or something.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Unrelated note, would love a Desire domain for cleric. Similar to the original concept of unity, but more about the subtle tweaking of minds and less about "bonds". I guess in practice it would just be an enchantment-focused cleric, but I'd still love to see it. A good cleric would see their domain as sort of "altering the path" to happiness by shifting people's wants, while an evil cleric would use it to design an intricate web of schemes and lustful (not necessarily in the carnal sense) thoughts in order to stray people off the path of progress and virtue.
That was actually the original concept for the Revised Revised Barry Manilow "Peace" cleric. People freaked the **** out over it though, so it got changed to "Unity", then it's current form.
Yea I know. I mentioned it in the post you just quoted, and then said it was less about bonds and more about manipulation. Not trying to be an ******* or anything, just that I don't want this idea to be similar to that UA in the slightest.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Apologies. >.< I must have skimmed over it somehow. Although to be fair, the gist of my comment was that people freaked the **** out over the idea of a "manipulative" cleric, so we ended up with the stupid bonds one instead...
EDIT: I was also referring specifically to the "Love" domain cleric that got leaked before it was changed to "Unity". I only saw that Unity was mentioned, so I didn't know if you knew about it's earlier incarnation or not.
Fair enough. I don't know why people freaked out over the idea of a "Love" Cleric. There are countless deities devoted to love specifically in our world and in the forgotten realms, why is a Love domain so gross? It's not some primal divine force like Tempest or Light, so I wouldn't expect it to appeal to blasty folks, but I personally think it would've been fine as a domain theme.. Though I will admit Unity or Peace work much better for the theme as they can be applied much more broadly, and they also draw a parallel between Peace and War.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
A significant chunk of people saw it as being the "date ****" cleric, which I think was a bit hyperbolic (and to be frank, completely ignores the fact that whatever problematic elements it had can already be done in the game with existing features), but what's done is done; hopefully there's another way to explore the idea without getting everyone all het up.
Because when a remote deity sends invisible cherubs to somehow overcome the free will of two people by somehow forcing them together, that’s a “meet cute.” When that power falls into NPC hands it’s questionable, depending on the NPC. It will either be incredibly endearing, dubiously positive, our outright Evil and a future BBE. When it falls into PC hands... it’s creepy. It’s like, just over that line. No bueno. People used their safewords.
You know, while I'm thinking on the subject, I would like to see more subclasses that make use of the Psionic Power feature used by the recent rogue/fighter subclasses that were released. Right now I'm halfway thinking of a "Mind" domain cleric that uses Psionic Energy Dice to fuel it's subclass features...
But that same argument could be used for most of the enchantment school's spells, or the classes based on enchanting people. Manipulating people's minds in general is pretty terrible in my opinion. You're actively overriding their desires and wishes and implanting your own. I would go as far as to say that Enchantment magic as a whole might be one of the most inherently evil magic schools to exist.
Regardless, the subject of the ethics of mind-altering abilities is a topic for another thread. Are there any other ruminations on what might/should be in the next UA?
A Mind domain cleric would be interesting, but I fear it would trample over the Knowledge domain a bit in terms of theming. A psionic druid would be interesting though. Circle of Awakening? Druids that actively seek out psionic powers and creatures with them, as they view psionics as the natural evolution of the sentient races, and foster their development in tandem with nature. Psionics would be a form of enlightenment to them, seeing it as the method to interact with the world in its purest form, and they actively attempt to awaken it in both humanoids and other creatures. It could encompass weird underdark druids obsessed with mind flayers and the classic secluded conclave of treehuggers.. except the trees would have telepathy. You could even go with a "hivemind" thing, with the druids similarly emulating the mindlflayer's psionic mind-cloud thingy and seeking true oneness with nature by synchronizing their minds with every living thing.
Also wouldn't mind a retry at the mind-focused artificer. Archivist was a cool concept and I would love to see them try it again, even if Order of Scribes kinda sorta took a bit of its base concept and went way off the deep end with it. And while I'm talking about artificers, a pseudo-cavalier artificer would be interesting. Not quite like a knight artificer, more like an actual mechanic that makes carts and other mounts. Decent abilities that work on a mount or on your feet, though.
This has already been said, but a Stitcher/Skaabren/Frankenstein-esque artificer would be cool, or a lot of other horror-themed subclasses. A Great Old One Cleric, an Insanity Paladin, and an Alien Druid are all ideas I have.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The difference is that a PC who does mind control and enchantment, and admits to it is one thing. But a PC who does mind control and enchantment, but calls it “love” is a whole different level of things.
The difference is that a PC who does mind control and enchantment, and admits to it is one thing. But a PC who does mind control and enchantment, but calls it “love” is a whole different level of things.
Date **** is bad whether you admit to it or not. The excuse is also irrelevant.
Back on topic, I wouldn't mind a wizard subclass dedicated to the practical application of magic in an adventuring/treasure hunting/dungeon delving setting, similar how War Magic is a mixture of Abjuration and Evocation devoted to practical combat. A nice fusion of Divination, Transmutation, and Evocation for locating things/trap finding, manipulating the environment and your own biology, and fireballs for when you just really need something to die. Maybe the class could get some bonuses for locating/disarming magical traps and discerning the nature of magical items, or some ability that allows for mass storage of goods? Toss a few bonuses for single-target spells or spells that have attack rolls in there (to deal with the most dangerous targets first)? I'm aware that you could totally just build a character around this with the existing classes, but it was just a thought.
A subclass that develops syringes that, when injected, alter the recipient to gain boosts to their Ability Scores, Skills, saving throws...represented by a physical transformation.
Sort of a "mad scientist" build...if this makes you think of the Blood Hunter's "Order of the Mutant" subclass, you'd be on the right track.
Cleric - Destruction Domain
A subclass that acknowledges the deities of raw power & destruction...with just enough flexibility to include those chaotic gods who might philosophically consider destruction to be a natural phenomenon to create new life (to keep it morally balanced).
Add some nifty mechanics to heal allies or yourself when you use a destructive spell, maybe an aura that damages targets who get too close to you...it's a subclass of simple pleasures.
Wizard - Occultist
The most warlock-y of the wizard subclasses, these are Wizards obsessed with secrets...uncovering them, utilizing them, and unleashing them. Somewhere between "Divination" and "Necromancy", these Wizards have subclass features that let them extract secrets from their targets, and give them unique insights to the places in the multiverse other wizards may fear to linger...the Shadowfell, the Abyss, the Far Realm.
A subclass that develops syringes that, when injected, alter the recipient to gain boosts to their Ability Scores, Skills, saving throws...represented by a physical transformation.
Sort of a "mad scientist" build...if this makes you think of the Blood Hunter's "Order of the Mutant" subclass, you'd be on the right track.
Cleric - Destruction Domain
A subclass that acknowledges the deities of raw power & destruction...with just enough flexibility to include those chaotic gods who might philosophically consider destruction to be a natural phenomenon to create new life (to keep it morally balanced).
Add some nifty mechanics to heal allies or yourself when you use a destructive spell, maybe an aura that damages targets who get too close to you...it's a subclass of simple pleasures.
Wizard - Occultist
The most warlock-y of the wizard subclasses, these are Wizards obsessed with secrets...uncovering them, utilizing them, and unleashing them. Somewhere between "Divination" and "Necromancy", these Wizards have subclass features that let them extract secrets from their targets, and give them unique insights to the places in the multiverse other wizards may fear to linger...the Shadowfell, the Abyss, the Far Realm.
Love all of these.
I am honestly flabbergasted that hey did not do an Occult based wizard for Tashas.....seems like a huge missed opportunity.
You could easily flavor that as a Witch and it would be an awesome choice.
Destruction Cleric would be amazing....they could maybe take a page from Tempest and allow them to add damage/max damage to certain spells. They could also intrinsically do more damage to objects or could target objects with spells.
I think they will do a Mind Domain or a psionic cleric. Exploring Eberron did it and it turned out pretty good. I think they either lean into the psionic subclasses more or they break down and go full on class...****y time will tell on this one.
Bioengineer/Mutantgant seems likely. There is a healthy demand for such things as evidenced by PF2e and the popularity of Blood Hunter.
The most warlock-y of the wizard subclasses, these are Wizards obsessed with secrets...uncovering them, utilizing them, and unleashing them. Somewhere between "Divination" and "Necromancy", these Wizards have subclass features that let them extract secrets from their targets, and give them unique insights to the places in the multiverse other wizards may fear to linger...the Shadowfell, the Abyss, the Far Realm.
that is literally just the warlock, you are describing what an warlock is fluff wise (minus the pacts), arcanists who dare to delve deeper into the wealth of knowledge than any wizard or worldly sage would ever be able, "finders and keepers of secrets" as xanatar's guide to everything described them, unearthing hidden fragments of occult lore that grant them an abbiding magical abillity and all that.
That said an patron-less warlock would be an interesting take and since they will not let us cast spells with intelligence despite warlocks leaning towards that in their lore it could be an interesting warlock substitute
A subclass that develops syringes that, when injected, alter the recipient to gain boosts to their Ability Scores, Skills, saving throws...represented by a physical transformation.
Sort of a "mad scientist" build...if this makes you think of the Blood Hunter's "Order of the Mutant" subclass, you'd be on the right track.
might be seen as at least fluff wise too similar to the alchemist to ever stick in the sense that you are using chemicals and affecting the body in all these different ways while being the sort of "mad scientist" of the artificers, but it sure would be an more interesting take on the alchemist and likely extremely different mechanically, like as long as you can fit it in into the framework of how artificers typically operate it would be great.
A subclass that acknowledges the deities of raw power & destruction...with just enough flexibility to include those chaotic gods who might philosophically consider destruction to be a natural phenomenon to create new life (to keep it morally balanced).
Add some nifty mechanics to heal allies or yourself when you use a destructive spell, maybe an aura that damages targets who get too close to you...it's a subclass of simple pleasures.
might be neat, a bit similar to tempest clerics but not enough that it be an issue
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
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For the more malevolent ones, yea basically. But it could also just as easily work for gods of love or even knowledge (Because usually people who crave knowledge have some sort of desire that requires knowledge, right?). channel divinity could maybe be like a heightened trance/enchantment or something.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Interesting. I could see a benevolent Cleric like that who goes to the poor and homeless, gifting them luxuries that they might not be able to afford.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
That was actually the original concept for the
Revised Revised Barry Manilow"Peace" cleric. People freaked the **** out over it though, so it got changed to "Unity", then it's current form.Yea I know. I mentioned it in the post you just quoted, and then said it was less about bonds and more about manipulation. Not trying to be an ******* or anything, just that I don't want this idea to be similar to that UA in the slightest.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Apologies. >.< I must have skimmed over it somehow. Although to be fair, the gist of my comment was that people freaked the **** out over the idea of a "manipulative" cleric, so we ended up with the stupid bonds one instead...
EDIT: I was also referring specifically to the "Love" domain cleric that got leaked before it was changed to "Unity". I only saw that Unity was mentioned, so I didn't know if you knew about it's earlier incarnation or not.
Fair enough. I don't know why people freaked out over the idea of a "Love" Cleric. There are countless deities devoted to love specifically in our world and in the forgotten realms, why is a Love domain so gross? It's not some primal divine force like Tempest or Light, so I wouldn't expect it to appeal to blasty folks, but I personally think it would've been fine as a domain theme.. Though I will admit Unity or Peace work much better for the theme as they can be applied much more broadly, and they also draw a parallel between Peace and War.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
A significant chunk of people saw it as being the "date ****" cleric, which I think was a bit hyperbolic (and to be frank, completely ignores the fact that whatever problematic elements it had can already be done in the game with existing features), but what's done is done; hopefully there's another way to explore the idea without getting everyone all het up.
Because when a remote deity sends invisible cherubs to somehow overcome the free will of two people by somehow forcing them together, that’s a “meet cute.” When that power falls into NPC hands it’s questionable, depending on the NPC. It will either be incredibly endearing, dubiously positive, our outright Evil and a future BBE. When it falls into PC hands... it’s creepy. It’s like, just over that line. No bueno. People used their safewords.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
You know, while I'm thinking on the subject, I would like to see more subclasses that make use of the Psionic Power feature used by the recent rogue/fighter subclasses that were released. Right now I'm halfway thinking of a "Mind" domain cleric that uses Psionic Energy Dice to fuel it's subclass features...
@IamSposta: That is true. I do think some of the criticism was a little overblown, but again, what's done is done.
EDIT: "Overblown" isn't quite the word I'm looking for, but my brain is too addled to come up with a better one so, for lack of a better word...
But that same argument could be used for most of the enchantment school's spells, or the classes based on enchanting people. Manipulating people's minds in general is pretty terrible in my opinion. You're actively overriding their desires and wishes and implanting your own. I would go as far as to say that Enchantment magic as a whole might be one of the most inherently evil magic schools to exist.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Regardless, the subject of the ethics of mind-altering abilities is a topic for another thread. Are there any other ruminations on what might/should be in the next UA?
This is true.
A Mind domain cleric would be interesting, but I fear it would trample over the Knowledge domain a bit in terms of theming. A psionic druid would be interesting though. Circle of Awakening? Druids that actively seek out psionic powers and creatures with them, as they view psionics as the natural evolution of the sentient races, and foster their development in tandem with nature. Psionics would be a form of enlightenment to them, seeing it as the method to interact with the world in its purest form, and they actively attempt to awaken it in both humanoids and other creatures. It could encompass weird underdark druids obsessed with mind flayers and the classic secluded conclave of treehuggers.. except the trees would have telepathy. You could even go with a "hivemind" thing, with the druids similarly emulating the mindlflayer's psionic mind-cloud thingy and seeking true oneness with nature by synchronizing their minds with every living thing.
Also wouldn't mind a retry at the mind-focused artificer. Archivist was a cool concept and I would love to see them try it again, even if Order of Scribes kinda sorta took a bit of its base concept and went way off the deep end with it. And while I'm talking about artificers, a pseudo-cavalier artificer would be interesting. Not quite like a knight artificer, more like an actual mechanic that makes carts and other mounts. Decent abilities that work on a mount or on your feet, though.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
This has already been said, but a Stitcher/Skaabren/Frankenstein-esque artificer would be cool, or a lot of other horror-themed subclasses. A Great Old One Cleric, an Insanity Paladin, and an Alien Druid are all ideas I have.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
The difference is that a PC who does mind control and enchantment, and admits to it is one thing. But a PC who does mind control and enchantment, but calls it “love” is a whole different level of things.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Date **** is bad whether you admit to it or not. The excuse is also irrelevant.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Back on topic, I wouldn't mind a wizard subclass dedicated to the practical application of magic in an adventuring/treasure hunting/dungeon delving setting, similar how War Magic is a mixture of Abjuration and Evocation devoted to practical combat. A nice fusion of Divination, Transmutation, and Evocation for locating things/trap finding, manipulating the environment and your own biology, and fireballs for when you just really need something to die. Maybe the class could get some bonuses for locating/disarming magical traps and discerning the nature of magical items, or some ability that allows for mass storage of goods? Toss a few bonuses for single-target spells or spells that have attack rolls in there (to deal with the most dangerous targets first)?
I'm aware that you could totally just build a character around this with the existing classes, but it was just a thought.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Artificer - Bioengineer
A subclass that develops syringes that, when injected, alter the recipient to gain boosts to their Ability Scores, Skills, saving throws...represented by a physical transformation.
Sort of a "mad scientist" build...if this makes you think of the Blood Hunter's "Order of the Mutant" subclass, you'd be on the right track.
Cleric - Destruction Domain
A subclass that acknowledges the deities of raw power & destruction...with just enough flexibility to include those chaotic gods who might philosophically consider destruction to be a natural phenomenon to create new life (to keep it morally balanced).
Add some nifty mechanics to heal allies or yourself when you use a destructive spell, maybe an aura that damages targets who get too close to you...it's a subclass of simple pleasures.
Wizard - Occultist
The most warlock-y of the wizard subclasses, these are Wizards obsessed with secrets...uncovering them, utilizing them, and unleashing them. Somewhere between "Divination" and "Necromancy", these Wizards have subclass features that let them extract secrets from their targets, and give them unique insights to the places in the multiverse other wizards may fear to linger...the Shadowfell, the Abyss, the Far Realm.
Love all of these.
I am honestly flabbergasted that hey did not do an Occult based wizard for Tashas.....seems like a huge missed opportunity.
You could easily flavor that as a Witch and it would be an awesome choice.
Destruction Cleric would be amazing....they could maybe take a page from Tempest and allow them to add damage/max damage to certain spells. They could also intrinsically do more damage to objects or could target objects with spells.
I think they will do a Mind Domain or a psionic cleric. Exploring Eberron did it and it turned out pretty good. I think they either lean into the psionic subclasses more or they break down and go full on class...****y time will tell on this one.
Bioengineer/Mutantgant seems likely. There is a healthy demand for such things as evidenced by PF2e and the popularity of Blood Hunter.
that is literally just the warlock, you are describing what an warlock is fluff wise (minus the pacts), arcanists who dare to delve deeper into the wealth of knowledge than any wizard or worldly sage would ever be able, "finders and keepers of secrets" as xanatar's guide to everything described them, unearthing hidden fragments of occult lore that grant them an abbiding magical abillity and all that.
That said an patron-less warlock would be an interesting take and since they will not let us cast spells with intelligence despite warlocks leaning towards that in their lore it could be an interesting warlock substitute
might be seen as at least fluff wise too similar to the alchemist to ever stick in the sense that you are using chemicals and affecting the body in all these different ways while being the sort of "mad scientist" of the artificers, but it sure would be an more interesting take on the alchemist and likely extremely different mechanically, like as long as you can fit it in into the framework of how artificers typically operate it would be great.
might be neat, a bit similar to tempest clerics but not enough that it be an issue
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes