None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
Both are very possible, so I'm hoping that's addressed in the final version if these spells get an official release.
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
Both are very possible, so I'm hoping that's addressed in the final version if these spells get an official release.
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
That to me is intentional because these are always friendly to you and aren't gated by the DM the way Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental are.
And they're all action spells.
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You don't lose control of woodland beings or animals from the level 3 or 4 spells... and they have 1.5 to 2x the HP, still (and hit dice). AND those are action spells too.
You don't lose control of woodland beings or animals from the level 3 or 4 spells... and they have 1.5 to 2x the HP, still (and hit dice). AND those are action spells too.
And the DM gets to choose what you get with those spells RAW. What you summon with those spells can be as strong or as weak as the DM wants, and the only thing the player truly has any control over is the CR and number of the critters you summon. It's just that there are so many choices that DMs will often leave it to players to pick something.
While technically true, when the DM has one option, is that a choice? And if they can choose anything and it is better than the summon version, does it matter?
While I guess having a smaller number of HP and less utility than the options that you get from looting the MM is a tradeoff that might be justifiable, I am still pretty adamant that they should at least be given HD so that the summoning subclass still gets some benefits to summoning these.
Do you think it's possible to have summoning spells in the same vein in these that use other creatures like dragons, giants, and plants?
Technically, anything is possible. But these spells summon things from the outer planes. So things like Fire Giants from the Fire Plane might be possible. Or Plants from the Fae Wild. But many of those things coils be covered under some of these spells.
I mean, there is a Conjure Animals spell, but that makes sense because of the Beastlands. I don't see any Dragon, Giant, or Plant summoning spells coming soon.
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I mean, there is a Conjure Animals spell, but that makes sense because of the Beastlands. I don't see any Dragon, Giant, or Plant summoning spells coming soon.
Two things to note:
a.) Conjure Animals actually summons fey creatures that take the guise of beasts, so it's actually Feywild-related. You could reflavor it as Beastlands tomfoolery though, but the beasts that come from there are probably celestials.
b.) In older editions, many Outer Planes have dragons native to them. Carceri has the Tarterian Dragon, Acheron has the Rust Dragon, etc.
Yeah, but there aren't any Styx or Tarterian dragons in 5e, so unless those get published, it is highly unlikely they'll have spells that summon those ever.
It is still highly unlikely that the spells will be published anyways, but anything is possible.
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There are Shadow Dragons from the Shadowfell, so it's possible that there are dragons from other planes.
Shadow Dragons aren't native to the Shadowfell. They're created when a dragon gets trapped in the shadowfell for long enough, or becomes depressed enough to turn into a shadow dragon.
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None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
Both are very possible, so I'm hoping that's addressed in the final version if these spells get an official release.
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
That to me is intentional because these are always friendly to you and aren't gated by the DM the way Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental are.
also their hit points are modelled after the hit points of the steel defender companion or the new revised elemental sidekick buddies rather than after the HP of other minions you can summon
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
also now that we have both this UA and class feature variants, it would be coold to see an variant feature for the beast master ranger that synnergizes with these new spells, something like "if you have no companion and you cast an spell that summons a beast or fey, you can choose to have that beast or fey be treated as your companion for the duration of the spell" or something along those lines
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
Both are very possible, so I'm hoping that's addressed in the final version if these spells get an official release.
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
That to me is intentional because these are always friendly to you and aren't gated by the DM the way Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental are.
also their hit points are modelled after the hit points of the steel defender companion or the new revised elemental sidekick buddies rather than after the HP of other minions you can summon
I get that, I still just don't think that the relatively minor benefits of these spells beat the benefits of the conjure spells, especially conjure animals and conjure woodland beings that don't have ANY of the downsides so often repeated in this thread of conjure elemental. Those two 1-action conjure spells have better cr2 options than these new spells provide with a level 4 slot. Heck, a bunch of the options you could have at CR 1 from conjure animals are better than the options you get casting the summon spell with a 4th level slot, and you get TWO of them.
None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
Both are very possible, so I'm hoping that's addressed in the final version if these spells get an official release.
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
That to me is intentional because these are always friendly to you and aren't gated by the DM the way Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental are.
also their hit points are modelled after the hit points of the steel defender companion or the new revised elemental sidekick buddies rather than after the HP of other minions you can summon
I get that, I still just don't think that the relatively minor benefits of these spells beat the benefits of the conjure spells, especially conjure animals and conjure woodland beings that don't have ANY of the downsides so often repeated in this thread of conjure elemental. Those two 1-action conjure spells have better cr2 options than these new spells provide with a level 4 slot. Heck, a bunch of the options you could have at CR 1 from conjure animals are better than the options you get casting the summon spell with a 4th level slot, and you get TWO of them.
that is of course cause for concern, but for some of these they dont have any competition to begin with, no summon spell made for combat exists at 2nd level, so it is fine that the summon beastial spirit is a bit weaker, similarly the undead spirit is much stronger than any undead available to an wizard at that point, and will only be matched by non necromancy spells that are useful to him like summon greater demon for the undead dybuuk and who only gets outshined by danse macabre at 5th level, since it is still stronger than the wights and ghouls of create undead, so for the purposes of undead thralls summon undead spirit is great. Many of these also grant an greater deal of autonomy for the caster in what creatures exactly are summoned, so there is also that.
and also they might possibly make up for their lack of hit points by having greater damage output, or with additional gimmics that these certain spells, in particular in matters of out of combat utillity where deciding precisely what creature to summon and what that creatures exact stats are might be important, so you can use underwater monsters underwater, arial monsters and ranged monsters when appropriate and so on. Of course they might be in need of a slight buff in HP even as is and if so it is fantastic that we have noticed that now, before the spells go into print
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I've said before that these can still be improved as they aren't official yet, but I think Wolf is vastly underestimating the quality of life aspect of these, especially from a combat management point of view. You don't have to roll a separate initiative for these, you don't have to manage whole mobs which can drag out combat significantly, and you don't have to keep a library of many stat blocks. The main draw with these, more than anything else, is convenience.
Well, we've seen (especially with the upcoming changes to healing spirit in the upcoming Xanathar's errata) that they're not afraid to fix spells that aren't working as they originally thought. Half your complaint about the conjure spells could be fixed by changing how their initiative works, and the other half could be fixed by simply allowing the caster to pick (possibly from a limited list) what is summoned. I don't see why the solution to having problematic spells isn't to fix the problems with those spells. I'd prefer a fix to a problem rather than another problematic solution.
I think in how it would be implemented. I mean multiple tattoos would be attuned as one item, but limited on the size, which is based on rarity.
I figured there would be some difference
None of these new summon spells have hit die listed. This breaks one of the benefits of mighty summoner for the shepherd druid. Is that intended or oversight?
If I'm reading these spells correctly, they actually have really bad hitpoints compared to what you can currently summon. For example, Summon Beast spirit gives you around 36 HP for your conjuration, vs 42-68 for most CR 2 creatures that you could get with conjure beasts. If you use a 5th level slot with summon elemental spirit, you get about half the HP that you'd get from a conjure elemental.
And they're all action spells.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You don't lose control of woodland beings or animals from the level 3 or 4 spells... and they have 1.5 to 2x the HP, still (and hit dice). AND those are action spells too.
While technically true, when the DM has one option, is that a choice? And if they can choose anything and it is better than the summon version, does it matter?
While I guess having a smaller number of HP and less utility than the options that you get from looting the MM is a tradeoff that might be justifiable, I am still pretty adamant that they should at least be given HD so that the summoning subclass still gets some benefits to summoning these.
Do you think it's possible to have summoning spells in the same vein in these that use other creatures like dragons, giants, and plants?
Since they aren't extraplanar creatures, not really.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Technically, anything is possible. But these spells summon things from the outer planes. So things like Fire Giants from the Fire Plane might be possible. Or Plants from the Fae Wild. But many of those things coils be covered under some of these spells.
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I mean, there is a Conjure Animals spell, but that makes sense because of the Beastlands. I don't see any Dragon, Giant, or Plant summoning spells coming soon.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah, but there aren't any Styx or Tarterian dragons in 5e, so unless those get published, it is highly unlikely they'll have spells that summon those ever.
It is still highly unlikely that the spells will be published anyways, but anything is possible.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
There are Shadow Dragons from the Shadowfell, so it's possible that there are dragons from other planes.
Shadow Dragons aren't native to the Shadowfell. They're created when a dragon gets trapped in the shadowfell for long enough, or becomes depressed enough to turn into a shadow dragon.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
also their hit points are modelled after the hit points of the steel defender companion or the new revised elemental sidekick buddies rather than after the HP of other minions you can summon
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
also now that we have both this UA and class feature variants, it would be coold to see an variant feature for the beast master ranger that synnergizes with these new spells, something like "if you have no companion and you cast an spell that summons a beast or fey, you can choose to have that beast or fey be treated as your companion for the duration of the spell" or something along those lines
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I get that, I still just don't think that the relatively minor benefits of these spells beat the benefits of the conjure spells, especially conjure animals and conjure woodland beings that don't have ANY of the downsides so often repeated in this thread of conjure elemental. Those two 1-action conjure spells have better cr2 options than these new spells provide with a level 4 slot. Heck, a bunch of the options you could have at CR 1 from conjure animals are better than the options you get casting the summon spell with a 4th level slot, and you get TWO of them.
that is of course cause for concern, but for some of these they dont have any competition to begin with, no summon spell made for combat exists at 2nd level, so it is fine that the summon beastial spirit is a bit weaker, similarly the undead spirit is much stronger than any undead available to an wizard at that point, and will only be matched by non necromancy spells that are useful to him like summon greater demon for the undead dybuuk and who only gets outshined by danse macabre at 5th level, since it is still stronger than the wights and ghouls of create undead, so for the purposes of undead thralls summon undead spirit is great. Many of these also grant an greater deal of autonomy for the caster in what creatures exactly are summoned, so there is also that.
and also they might possibly make up for their lack of hit points by having greater damage output, or with additional gimmics that these certain spells, in particular in matters of out of combat utillity where deciding precisely what creature to summon and what that creatures exact stats are might be important, so you can use underwater monsters underwater, arial monsters and ranged monsters when appropriate and so on. Of course they might be in need of a slight buff in HP even as is and if so it is fantastic that we have noticed that now, before the spells go into print
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Well, we've seen (especially with the upcoming changes to healing spirit in the upcoming Xanathar's errata) that they're not afraid to fix spells that aren't working as they originally thought. Half your complaint about the conjure spells could be fixed by changing how their initiative works, and the other half could be fixed by simply allowing the caster to pick (possibly from a limited list) what is summoned. I don't see why the solution to having problematic spells isn't to fix the problems with those spells. I'd prefer a fix to a problem rather than another problematic solution.
As the DM I would never let my players pick the creatures summoned by Conjure Woodland Beings. I hate the Pixies and Polymorph shenanigans.
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