Again, its the narrative AND mechanical space that I am failing to see. I understand the narrative of the Psion partially, but once we get beyond that I am struggling to see how a Psion base class with a "martial arts" subclass would play any differently than a Monk class with a Psion subclass if that makes sense. One path doesn't require any new systems or publishing of a brand new class to balance.
I think that 5e is aimed towards mass appeal, and uses its resources accordingly. I think that is the reason we have seen 2 UA's now with psionic subclasses and no attempts to further develop the Mystic into a Psion class. Don't get me wrong, I am open to a class, but they aren't going to just do it on a whim. There has to be a good reason.
Personally, I think it starts with figuring out what the Psion is and what large archetypal role it fills in fiction and what mechanics can make this in game. I hear some ideas for mechanics, but they sound like "A Monk but with Psi Points" or a "Wizard but without using spell slots".... it doesn't really capture the imagination.
For example, Psions are using Intelligence, which to me means they learn their abilities from something right (because if it was their willpower alone, it sounds like Charisma and Sorcerer). How do Psions learn their abilities? What do they do that makes them different in a story than say what a Psionic Sorcerer would do?
Ya I'm open to creating another one but I also agree with @Positron49 "...5e is aimed towards mass appeal..."
Who says it isn't mass appeal to have a psionic class or new system? I personally haven't seen the results of the surveys, have you?
Well also @Positron49 says more stuff about his opinions, I just pointed out one small one. I'm not discounting you @LeviRocks, I also have two sides of this opinion.
But what does this full class do if not spells (or renamed spells that use some other similar but different resource)? I still fail to understand conceptually what the goal is here. Is it designed like a martial class? Like a monk that has Psy Points instead of Ki Points and some features like Invocations that perform Psy like abilities?
It wouldn't be designed like a martial class, it would be closer to a spellcaster. I would design it with a d6 hit die, and it would have 6 main subclasses that are the main parts of the class. (It would kind of be like how PHB wizard subclasses are the schools of magic, this would be the psionic "schools", though more subclasses could be made later on.)
It would not cast spells like "Invisibililty" or "Telekinesis," or "Telepathy". It would have powers that accomplish similar tasks but mechanically different. It would have abilities that could move around multiple creatures or objects at once, abilities to telepathically mind blast a specific amount of creatures, and other such abilities. The main thing this would have over spellcasting is that it would scale as you level up, instead of by choosing more spells at later levels.
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This is what I personally require to be true before I approve of any psionic system WotC publishes in an Unearthed Arcana.
1) +1 I agree completely.
2) +1 I agree completely.
3) I completely disagree on this one. The wizard, the artificer, the sorcerer (as examples) are not simple to understand. Any psionic based class should have a Psi Point based system (probably based on the optional Power Point system in the DMG).
They were on the right track with the Mystic. They just needed to focus more on archetypes in line with the Wizard school style of archetypes. Give them all a central set of abilities then add another set of abilities based on their archetype (telepath, telekinetic, etc.).
Retain the psionic focus concept and have these abilities powered (fuels) by psi points.
This concept of psi die is just another thing for the DM to keep track of when dealing with players who can't be trusted with keeping track of their own abilities. I have been playing/DM'ing D&D since 1981 and have lost track of the number of times I have had issues with this type of player.
I won't be using (or allowing in my games) any of the psi die based archetypes. I have enough on my plate to track as is.
My ideal psionic class would be simpler to understand than Wizards or Sorcerers. It would be harder to pick up at first because you'd be used to a different system, but would be mechanically simpler or on par. The Mystic, IMHO, was way too complicated, and also unbalanced. I personally would prefer a ton of psi points, but I think they'd just do something like sorcery points.
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But what does this full class do if not spells (or renamed spells that use some other similar but different resource)? I still fail to understand conceptually what the goal is here. Is it designed like a martial class? Like a monk that has Psy Points instead of Ki Points and some features like Invocations that perform Psy like abilities?
It wouldn't be designed like a martial class, it would be closer to a spellcaster. I would design it with a d6 hit die, and it would have 6 main subclasses that are the main parts of the class. (It would kind of be like how PHB wizard subclasses are the schools of magic, this would be the psionic "schools", though more subclasses could be made later on.)
It would not cast spells like "Invisibililty" or "Telekinesis," or "Telepathy". It would have powers that accomplish similar tasks but mechanically different. It would have abilities that could move around multiple creatures or objects at once, abilities to telepathically mind blast a specific amount of creatures, and other such abilities. The main thing this would have over spellcasting is that it would scale as you level up, instead of by choosing more spells at later levels.
Right, I understand... but my question kind of circles back to how does a "Telekinetic Psion" differ from a "Telekinetic Sorcerer"... it sounds like a new lvl 1 telekinesis spell that can be upcast to me (sticking to tk to keep it simple).
Sorry as a non-veteran player, I still struggle to understand the mechanical and narrative need for a whole new chassis. Once the Artificer came out, I immediately switched my next character concept from Wizard to it, because it fulfilled the "inventor" category that a Wizard just wasn't able to do. I struggle to think of a "Psionic" that wouldn't be fulfilled in a well designed subclass in each class. If I want to play Psylocke, a Psionic Monk or Rogue would work. If I want to play Eleven, a Psionic Sorcerer seems to be fine. If I want to play a Jedi, a Psionic Fighter would do it. I could be wrong, I don't know every single concept out there, but I think the reason we haven't seen the Psion pursued very aggressively is because it isn't as obvious of a need to players. It seems to be something you only really want if you knew about it beforehand. I didn't know about it until Mystic UA and now these.
I am not a veteran player, I've only been playing D&D for 3 years, and only ever 5e, so I don't know much about the previous editions. But, I do know what Psionics does that spellcasting can't, and that can't be easily or correctly replicated in just subclasses. First, you mentioned the artificer. Artificers introduced a lot of new mechanics into the game, like infusions, creature stat blocks in the class description, expending spell slot for recharged abilities, stuff like that. Imagine if we only had subclasses to replicate the artificer. That's what it started out as in the Unearthed Arcana, as a Wizard subclass. They even tried to make it work a couple times. If the class didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to have a Steel Defender, a repulsion shield, and pistol in combat. You couldn't have a wand that shoots fireballs, a turret that knocks people around, and a Staff of the Magi, while still having prayer beads in the other hand.
There's a ton of versatility that comes from just having another class added to the game. Sure, you can have psions be 100% represented by a Sorcerer subclass that can use fireballs and telekinesis and wish, but that doesn't truly show how psionics is supposed to be. It's the same situation as the Artificer. Sure, you can replicate it in only subclasses, but that restricts it a lot more, and doesn't completely cover the theme.
Something a theoretical psion could do is telepathically levitate 5 creatures at once, keeping them out of combat, while still maintaining a telepathic bond with an enemy to psychic blast them with power. A class 100% based around psionics would be a lot more versatile, flexible, and just a ton cooler. That's why I personally want a psion based class, instead of just a spellcaster reskinned as psionics.
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But what does this full class do if not spells (or renamed spells that use some other similar but different resource)? I still fail to understand conceptually what the goal is here. Is it designed like a martial class? Like a monk that has Psy Points instead of Ki Points and some features like Invocations that perform Psy like abilities?
It wouldn't be designed like a martial class, it would be closer to a spellcaster. I would design it with a d6 hit die, and it would have 6 main subclasses that are the main parts of the class. (It would kind of be like how PHB wizard subclasses are the schools of magic, this would be the psionic "schools", though more subclasses could be made later on.)
It would not cast spells like "Invisibililty" or "Telekinesis," or "Telepathy". It would have powers that accomplish similar tasks but mechanically different. It would have abilities that could move around multiple creatures or objects at once, abilities to telepathically mind blast a specific amount of creatures, and other such abilities. The main thing this would have over spellcasting is that it would scale as you level up, instead of by choosing more spells at later levels.
Right, I understand... but my question kind of circles back to how does a "Telekinetic Psion" differ from a "Telekinetic Sorcerer"... it sounds like a new lvl 1 telekinesis spell that can be upcast to me (sticking to tk to keep it simple).
There is no telekinetic sorcerer, though. There's a general "Psionic Sorcerer", which is a very limited form of psionics. A Telekinetic Psion could have a psionic power that could scale as you level to manipulate more and heavier targets. A Telekinetic Sorcerer is much more limited. At level 1, they have message, mage hand, feather fall, and thunderwave, which are fairly easily reskinned to be psionic/telekinetic abilities. The thing is, a Psion wouldn't be stuck reskinning things. It would have built in class features that exactly emulate the abilities they're supposed to be. The most recent psionic sorcerer is much much more restricted than a level 1 psion would be. They have an ability allowing them to temporarily learn another spell, speak telepathically, and not use components for spells. Telepathy would be the focus of the Telepath subclass for the psionic class, and they'd have abilities to expand upon the fairly limiting "telepathy" that really has no use in combat. Psychokinesis could choose a telekinesis power that lets them move small creatures and objects around, which would eventually scale to be better at later levels. The psion would be much less limited, while also being fairly less complicated.
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But what does this full class do if not spells (or renamed spells that use some other similar but different resource)? I still fail to understand conceptually what the goal is here. Is it designed like a martial class? Like a monk that has Psy Points instead of Ki Points and some features like Invocations that perform Psy like abilities?
It wouldn't be designed like a martial class, it would be closer to a spellcaster. I would design it with a d6 hit die, and it would have 6 main subclasses that are the main parts of the class. (It would kind of be like how PHB wizard subclasses are the schools of magic, this would be the psionic "schools", though more subclasses could be made later on.)
It would not cast spells like "Invisibililty" or "Telekinesis," or "Telepathy". It would have powers that accomplish similar tasks but mechanically different. It would have abilities that could move around multiple creatures or objects at once, abilities to telepathically mind blast a specific amount of creatures, and other such abilities. The main thing this would have over spellcasting is that it would scale as you level up, instead of by choosing more spells at later levels.
Right, I understand... but my question kind of circles back to how does a "Telekinetic Psion" differ from a "Telekinetic Sorcerer"... it sounds like a new lvl 1 telekinesis spell that can be upcast to me (sticking to tk to keep it simple).
There is no telekinetic sorcerer, though. There's a general "Psionic Sorcerer", which is a very limited form of psionics. A Telekinetic Psion could have a psionic power that could scale as you level to manipulate more and heavier targets. A Telekinetic Sorcerer is much more limited. At level 1, they have message, mage hand, feather fall, and thunderwave, which are fairly easily reskinned to be psionic/telekinetic abilities. The thing is, a Psion wouldn't be stuck reskinning things. It would have built in class features that exactly emulate the abilities they're supposed to be. The most recent psionic sorcerer is much much more restricted than a level 1 psion would be. They have an ability allowing them to temporarily learn another spell, speak telepathically, and not use components for spells. Telepathy would be the focus of the Telepath subclass for the psionic class, and they'd have abilities to expand upon the fairly limiting "telepathy" that really has no use in combat. Psychokinesis could choose a telekinesis power that lets them move small creatures and objects around, which would eventually scale to be better at later levels. The psion would be much less limited, while also being fairly less complicated.
Again, its the narrative AND mechanical space that I am failing to see. I understand the narrative of the Psion partially, but once we get beyond that I am struggling to see how a Psion base class with a "martial arts" subclass would play any differently than a Monk class with a Psion subclass if that makes sense. One path doesn't require any new systems or publishing of a brand new class to balance.
Think of it like this. If you make a psionic subclass for a monk, it's a monk with a bit of psionic powers. If you made a brand new class, it would be a full Psion with the full extent of psionic powers.
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I never said anything about a martial arts subclass. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Regardless, WotC has made martial subclasses for full casters, such as the Bladesinger Wizard and College of Swords Bard, so it's not as if there isn't precedent for such a thing to happen.
I would also like to point out that the Artificer has also gone through multiple iterations of UA, including at least one where it was originally a Wizard subclass; there was also another version where it was a cleric, but that was put together for Keith Baker to play during a stream instead of for playtesting, but regardless, what we're seeing here with psionics is following a pretty similar pattern to what we've seen before: multiple iterations as both a class and subclass, with a number of arguments saying it wasn't necessary because it didn't fill a narrative and mechanical space that can't be filled already. I disagreed with that assessment then, and I disagree with it now.
(This isn't in direct response to anyone specific, it's just a general post. This is here to avoid confusion.)
I think the main thing I want to shoot down is the idea that Psionics is fine being left to subclasses in preexisting classes. This didn't work for the Artificer, and sure as hell won't work for Psionics.
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Again, its the narrative AND mechanical space that I am failing to see. I understand the narrative of the Psion partially, but once we get beyond that I am struggling to see how a Psion base class with a "martial arts" subclass would play any differently than a Monk class with a Psion subclass if that makes sense. One path doesn't require any new systems or publishing of a brand new class to balance.
But we want a new class. The point is to make the people who want it happy.
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I think that 5e is aimed towards mass appeal, and uses its resources accordingly. I think that is the reason we have seen 2 UA's now with psionic subclasses and no attempts to further develop the Mystic into a Psion class. Don't get me wrong, I am open to a class, but they aren't going to just do it on a whim. There has to be a good reason.
Personally, I think it starts with figuring out what the Psion is and what large archetypal role it fills in fiction and what mechanics can make this in game. I hear some ideas for mechanics, but they sound like "A Monk but with Psi Points" or a "Wizard but without using spell slots".... it doesn't really capture the imagination.
For example, Psions are using Intelligence, which to me means they learn their abilities from something right (because if it was their willpower alone, it sounds like Charisma and Sorcerer). How do Psions learn their abilities? What do they do that makes them different in a story than say what a Psionic Sorcerer would do?
Ya I'm open to creating another one but I also agree with @Positron49 "...5e is aimed towards mass appeal..."
Who says it isn't mass appeal to have a psionic class or new system? I personally haven't seen the results of the surveys, have you?
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Well also @Positron49 says more stuff about his opinions, I just pointed out one small one. I'm not discounting you @LeviRocks, I also have two sides of this opinion.
It wouldn't be designed like a martial class, it would be closer to a spellcaster. I would design it with a d6 hit die, and it would have 6 main subclasses that are the main parts of the class. (It would kind of be like how PHB wizard subclasses are the schools of magic, this would be the psionic "schools", though more subclasses could be made later on.)
It would not cast spells like "Invisibililty" or "Telekinesis," or "Telepathy". It would have powers that accomplish similar tasks but mechanically different. It would have abilities that could move around multiple creatures or objects at once, abilities to telepathically mind blast a specific amount of creatures, and other such abilities. The main thing this would have over spellcasting is that it would scale as you level up, instead of by choosing more spells at later levels.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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My ideal psionic class would be simpler to understand than Wizards or Sorcerers. It would be harder to pick up at first because you'd be used to a different system, but would be mechanically simpler or on par. The Mystic, IMHO, was way too complicated, and also unbalanced. I personally would prefer a ton of psi points, but I think they'd just do something like sorcery points.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Right, I understand... but my question kind of circles back to how does a "Telekinetic Psion" differ from a "Telekinetic Sorcerer"... it sounds like a new lvl 1 telekinesis spell that can be upcast to me (sticking to tk to keep it simple).
I am not a veteran player, I've only been playing D&D for 3 years, and only ever 5e, so I don't know much about the previous editions. But, I do know what Psionics does that spellcasting can't, and that can't be easily or correctly replicated in just subclasses. First, you mentioned the artificer. Artificers introduced a lot of new mechanics into the game, like infusions, creature stat blocks in the class description, expending spell slot for recharged abilities, stuff like that. Imagine if we only had subclasses to replicate the artificer. That's what it started out as in the Unearthed Arcana, as a Wizard subclass. They even tried to make it work a couple times. If the class didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to have a Steel Defender, a repulsion shield, and pistol in combat. You couldn't have a wand that shoots fireballs, a turret that knocks people around, and a Staff of the Magi, while still having prayer beads in the other hand.
There's a ton of versatility that comes from just having another class added to the game. Sure, you can have psions be 100% represented by a Sorcerer subclass that can use fireballs and telekinesis and wish, but that doesn't truly show how psionics is supposed to be. It's the same situation as the Artificer. Sure, you can replicate it in only subclasses, but that restricts it a lot more, and doesn't completely cover the theme.
Something a theoretical psion could do is telepathically levitate 5 creatures at once, keeping them out of combat, while still maintaining a telepathic bond with an enemy to psychic blast them with power. A class 100% based around psionics would be a lot more versatile, flexible, and just a ton cooler. That's why I personally want a psion based class, instead of just a spellcaster reskinned as psionics.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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There is no telekinetic sorcerer, though. There's a general "Psionic Sorcerer", which is a very limited form of psionics. A Telekinetic Psion could have a psionic power that could scale as you level to manipulate more and heavier targets. A Telekinetic Sorcerer is much more limited. At level 1, they have message, mage hand, feather fall, and thunderwave, which are fairly easily reskinned to be psionic/telekinetic abilities. The thing is, a Psion wouldn't be stuck reskinning things. It would have built in class features that exactly emulate the abilities they're supposed to be. The most recent psionic sorcerer is much much more restricted than a level 1 psion would be. They have an ability allowing them to temporarily learn another spell, speak telepathically, and not use components for spells. Telepathy would be the focus of the Telepath subclass for the psionic class, and they'd have abilities to expand upon the fairly limiting "telepathy" that really has no use in combat. Psychokinesis could choose a telekinesis power that lets them move small creatures and objects around, which would eventually scale to be better at later levels. The psion would be much less limited, while also being fairly less complicated.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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This
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Think of it like this. If you make a psionic subclass for a monk, it's a monk with a bit of psionic powers. If you made a brand new class, it would be a full Psion with the full extent of psionic powers.
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I never said anything about a martial arts subclass. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Regardless, WotC has made martial subclasses for full casters, such as the Bladesinger Wizard and College of Swords Bard, so it's not as if there isn't precedent for such a thing to happen.
I would also like to point out that the Artificer has also gone through multiple iterations of UA, including at least one where it was originally a Wizard subclass; there was also another version where it was a cleric, but that was put together for Keith Baker to play during a stream instead of for playtesting, but regardless, what we're seeing here with psionics is following a pretty similar pattern to what we've seen before: multiple iterations as both a class and subclass, with a number of arguments saying it wasn't necessary because it didn't fill a narrative and mechanical space that can't be filled already. I disagreed with that assessment then, and I disagree with it now.
EDIT: Levi beat me to the punch there.
(This isn't in direct response to anyone specific, it's just a general post. This is here to avoid confusion.)
I think the main thing I want to shoot down is the idea that Psionics is fine being left to subclasses in preexisting classes. This didn't work for the Artificer, and sure as hell won't work for Psionics.
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And Mez, Levi,
The two of you are being way more eloquent than I would have so I’m taking a back seat and letting you two say everything I would say only better.
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(Sorry, I'm a fast writer, and know how to write in an argumentative style.)
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Get down with your bad self, rub some funk on it.
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Is that a reference or something?
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Yes. I was saying that you had hit a groove and should keep going and not hold back.
*(Google the phrase “rub some funk on it” after you see the movie reference PM me and I’ll explain the slang behind it.)
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