Between my group being down because of Covid and me not wanting to play two frontliners in a row, by the time I'd get around to the Psi Knight, it would be officially discarded by Wizards and Xanathar 2.0 would be out. My group is somewhat open to UA, but if it gets tossed out, they might not want to bother. Ah well. Even if this mechanic is discarded, it sounds like there was some interest in the Psi Knight/Psychic Warrior, so I'm sure it'll exist in some form.
Yeah, if it roughly matches the complexity of Spellcasting I see that as no problem. Simpler might be nice too (I did like that Psi Die) but matching the complexity level of existing class features should be acceptable by everyone. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s any more “complex” except one is already familiar with Spellcasting so it just seems “simpler” in hindsight.
Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
I still don't get the issues Yurei has with spellcasters that aren't the Warlock personally. Yeah, the Warlock is the most customizable of the spellcasting classes, but I'd feel like I'm being hyperbolic if I equated the Wizard or the Cleric with a Champion.
Oh, Yurei talks that way about most classes, not just the spellcaster. Because once you pick a Subclass, there are no real choices. And I agree with them on that score. And Wizard subclasses are so generic from one another for the most part except for the 2 that are OP. It’s the boredom they object to.
Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored and overbuffed to hell and back to try and get people to realize otherwise. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
This is actually an excellent argument for the superiority of the warlock over the other spellcasting "classes."
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Because I REFUSE to start a ridiculous quote chain and this forum's quoting tools suck donkey balls, I'm just gonna do this the old fashioned way.
Positron Said: "At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?"
Okay. Here's the thing. Point me to ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this has happened in all of 5e.
One.
One single time.
Wizards said a lot of big-sounding things when they were building this edition, promising all sorts of extra, optional rules layers and expanded options for people who wanted that extra depth. They have delivered on exactly NONE of it. Not once, in the entire history of this edition, has 'Expanded Optional Rules' become a thing. It is clear and obvious that Wizards has long since abandoned the whole notion of 'Expanded Optional Rules', so saying that Wizards should design a Psion class that is no more complex than the goddamned Champion fighter and then "add extra rules on top for the weird, unpleasant folks who somehow want that stuff" is a nonstarter and actively disingenuous.
No. Whatever the 'base' Psion is, if and when it ever exists, that is the Psion we will all be stuck with. So don't feed me that line, if you would be so kind.
I'm sorry, I wasn't talking at all about the Psion. Just that warlocks were cool. Not trying to start an argument. (Is this a response to me? If not, disregard it.)
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
You're fine, Joel. I was speaking to the post Positron made while I was writing my other one. I just despise DDB's quotation tool and use it as little as possible, due to a hatred of million mile long quote chains that are a readability nightmare.
Back on topic, I agree that a Psion 2.0 (or advanced Psion) will never get made. If they even do make the full class, it would unprecedented for them to make an advanced version. I'd prefer a more complex version in general, to make it more unique and interesting.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
But, there really isn't a way to design psionics in a way that everyone will enjoy. They tried the Mystic, which was too long, complicated, overpowered and just a hot mess. They tried the subclasses with no new mechanics to unify psionics, and people seemed to like that, except the people who want more mechanics for psionics. They then added a unifying psionic ability to all the subclasses, and the masses didn't like it.
You will never get 100% approval on anything. At some point, you have to give up designing something for everyone, and start designing something to target a certain group of people.
I want a Psion class. You don't. You want it subclass based, right? I don't. You want to try a ton of new psionic options until everyone likes it, but that will not work. They cannot keep trying to design psionics in a way that makes everyone like it. Eventually, they're going to have to make a dumbed down, simple subclass psionic system for the people who just want to play psionics without the hassle of learning a new system. Then, after the do that, they're going to have to appeal to my group, like they said they will. That means one of the following things:
They make a new class for Psionics, not super complicated, but complex enough to appease my side. This is the best option. It takes nothing away from you, Positron, and just gives me more. This will make most people happy.
They ruin the subclasses by making them more complex. This will make literally no "sizable" group of people happy, and is probably the 2nd worst idea.
They make alternate versions of the subclasses, one simple, one complicated. This will make barely anyone happy. Players that want simple psionics will be confused as to why there are multiple options, and which they should pick, and maybe have their egos hurt. My side will be upset that we don't get what we really want, but cut our losses and either ban psionics and use homebrew, or use the new subclasses that are more complex.
They ignore my side and just go with simple subclass psionics. This is the worst option they can do, as they further alienate my side.
Does this make sense? They literally cannot appeal to everyone with one version of psionics. They have to make multiple versions to make most people happy with psionics.
Sure, if we make a new complex class with the restriction of "This smart to ride the system" that will upset some people, but they just have to realize that they literally cannot make everyone happy. They can make the most people happy, and making a new class is the best way to do this.
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You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
Ah, well they're not going to release a book wholly dedicated to psionics. The closest thing to that would be a Dark Sun book.
What I mean by "psionics-themed subclasses" is that they're subclasses for the other classes. It's the Psychic Warrior Fighter, Soul Knife Rogue, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. A psion class would definitely have subclasses, but these aren't the "psionic-themed subclasses", they're just "Psion subclasses".
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
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The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
As Saga and Levi said, the ideal goal is subclasses for other character classes to be the oversimplified, mechanically barren stuff the K.I.S.S. folks want, while the Psion class itself is more complex and nuanced. That allows for people with 'character concepts that are Psionic' to utilize those subclasses for the fighter, rogue, sorcerer, monk, what-have-you and avoid the depth they don't want, while people with a need for more engaging gameplay can gravitate to the Psion.
As to your other point? The warlock is not complex. Not really. The warlock is variable. The warlock has more decision points, by far, than other classes. If that means complexity to you, then yes, the warlock is complex. But none of the warlock's individual abilities are remotely difficult to grasp or understand. The interactions between those simple options create emergent complexity, which is another name for depth. You say "It's okay for the psion to be as complicated as the warlock! We're not trying to make it as simple as the Champion fighter!"
I say that the psion needs to be at least as complex and emergent as the warlock. You should be glad I'm not in charge of designing a psion class, Positron. My notion would involve at least three layers of branching decision trees, any of which save maybe the first one could change whenever the psion desired to reconfigure into a new set of options. A psion I designed would have access to several different psionic 'stances' of sorts, which determine what that psion can do with its selection of psionic abilities. Imagine if a warlock could change their Pact Boon at any time, and if each and every Invocation they selected had the potential to act differently based on their currently active Boon. Your Agonizing Blast Strike applies to Eldritch Blast while you bear the Tome, to your Pact weapon while you bear the Blade, and to the attacks delivered by your familiar while you bear the Chain, as just one simple example.
THAT is the kind of emergent depth I'm hoping for in a Psion. I'll never get it, though. 5e is deathly, mortally terrified of depth, because people who can't see the bottom of the pool won't jump in. They need to be able to see the bottom, see everything laid out for them and understand it all within a single 144-character Twitter post, or they bail. Thus why the God Damned Champion fighter remains so infuriatingly popular, and why I assume Wizards only strays from that template of "abilities so simple we could teach Koko the Gorilla how to play them" when they absolutely cannot figure out any other way to continue to abrogate their game design responsibilities.
So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I said, haha XD
Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
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So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
First, great post. I couldn't have said it better, and I tried.
(Second, I currently am playing a hexblade warlock. It is infuriatingly lacking in player options for me. People say that the Warlock is a complex class, but it really isn't. You're either a eldritch spammer, hexblade that does less damage than an eldritch blast spammer, or you are a celestial warlock that tries to focus on support. I love your idea of swapping pact boons, I wish that was already integrated into the class.)
The Psion class, if we get one, I hope it is at least as variable as the Warlock in character options beyond subclasses.
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Between my group being down because of Covid and me not wanting to play two frontliners in a row, by the time I'd get around to the Psi Knight, it would be officially discarded by Wizards and Xanathar 2.0 would be out. My group is somewhat open to UA, but if it gets tossed out, they might not want to bother. Ah well. Even if this mechanic is discarded, it sounds like there was some interest in the Psi Knight/Psychic Warrior, so I'm sure it'll exist in some form.
Yeah, if it roughly matches the complexity of Spellcasting I see that as no problem. Simpler might be nice too (I did like that Psi Die) but matching the complexity level of existing class features should be acceptable by everyone. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s any more “complex” except one is already familiar with Spellcasting so it just seems “simpler” in hindsight.
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Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
Please do not contact or message me.
Oh, Yurei talks that way about most classes, not just the spellcaster. Because once you pick a Subclass, there are no real choices. And I agree with them on that score. And Wizard subclasses are so generic from one another for the most part except for the 2 that are OP. It’s the boredom they object to.
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At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored and overbuffed to hell and back to try and get people to realize otherwise. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
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This is actually an excellent argument for the superiority of the warlock over the other spellcasting "classes."
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Because I REFUSE to start a ridiculous quote chain and this forum's quoting tools suck donkey balls, I'm just gonna do this the old fashioned way.
Positron Said:
"At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?"
Okay. Here's the thing. Point me to ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this has happened in all of 5e.
One.
One single time.
Wizards said a lot of big-sounding things when they were building this edition, promising all sorts of extra, optional rules layers and expanded options for people who wanted that extra depth. They have delivered on exactly NONE of it. Not once, in the entire history of this edition, has 'Expanded Optional Rules' become a thing. It is clear and obvious that Wizards has long since abandoned the whole notion of 'Expanded Optional Rules', so saying that Wizards should design a Psion class that is no more complex than the goddamned Champion fighter and then "add extra rules on top for the weird, unpleasant folks who somehow want that stuff" is a nonstarter and actively disingenuous.
No. Whatever the 'base' Psion is, if and when it ever exists, that is the Psion we will all be stuck with. So don't feed me that line, if you would be so kind.
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I'm sorry, I wasn't talking at all about the Psion. Just that warlocks were cool. Not trying to start an argument. (Is this a response to me? If not, disregard it.)
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
You're fine, Joel. I was speaking to the post Positron made while I was writing my other one. I just despise DDB's quotation tool and use it as little as possible, due to a hatred of million mile long quote chains that are a readability nightmare.
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Ah. No problem.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Back on topic, I agree that a Psion 2.0 (or advanced Psion) will never get made. If they even do make the full class, it would unprecedented for them to make an advanced version. I'd prefer a more complex version in general, to make it more unique and interesting.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
To be nice, I will quote, but ask anyone who would like to quote to only quote one post, to avoid a huge quote chain:
(This was already kind of covered by Yurei, but I want to add on)
But, there really isn't a way to design psionics in a way that everyone will enjoy. They tried the Mystic, which was too long, complicated, overpowered and just a hot mess. They tried the subclasses with no new mechanics to unify psionics, and people seemed to like that, except the people who want more mechanics for psionics. They then added a unifying psionic ability to all the subclasses, and the masses didn't like it.
You will never get 100% approval on anything. At some point, you have to give up designing something for everyone, and start designing something to target a certain group of people.
I want a Psion class. You don't. You want it subclass based, right? I don't. You want to try a ton of new psionic options until everyone likes it, but that will not work. They cannot keep trying to design psionics in a way that makes everyone like it. Eventually, they're going to have to make a dumbed down, simple subclass psionic system for the people who just want to play psionics without the hassle of learning a new system. Then, after the do that, they're going to have to appeal to my group, like they said they will. That means one of the following things:
Does this make sense? They literally cannot appeal to everyone with one version of psionics. They have to make multiple versions to make most people happy with psionics.
Sure, if we make a new complex class with the restriction of "This smart to ride the system" that will upset some people, but they just have to realize that they literally cannot make everyone happy. They can make the most people happy, and making a new class is the best way to do this.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
To Yukei:
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
Ah, well they're not going to release a book wholly dedicated to psionics. The closest thing to that would be a Dark Sun book.
What I mean by "psionics-themed subclasses" is that they're subclasses for the other classes. It's the Psychic Warrior Fighter, Soul Knife Rogue, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. A psion class would definitely have subclasses, but these aren't the "psionic-themed subclasses", they're just "Psion subclasses".
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
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Yeah, that’s exactly what I said, haha XD
As Saga and Levi said, the ideal goal is subclasses for other character classes to be the oversimplified, mechanically barren stuff the K.I.S.S. folks want, while the Psion class itself is more complex and nuanced. That allows for people with 'character concepts that are Psionic' to utilize those subclasses for the fighter, rogue, sorcerer, monk, what-have-you and avoid the depth they don't want, while people with a need for more engaging gameplay can gravitate to the Psion.
As to your other point? The warlock is not complex. Not really. The warlock is variable. The warlock has more decision points, by far, than other classes. If that means complexity to you, then yes, the warlock is complex. But none of the warlock's individual abilities are remotely difficult to grasp or understand. The interactions between those simple options create emergent complexity, which is another name for depth. You say "It's okay for the psion to be as complicated as the warlock! We're not trying to make it as simple as the Champion fighter!"
I say that the psion needs to be at least as complex and emergent as the warlock. You should be glad I'm not in charge of designing a psion class, Positron. My notion would involve at least three layers of branching decision trees, any of which save maybe the first one could change whenever the psion desired to reconfigure into a new set of options. A psion I designed would have access to several different psionic 'stances' of sorts, which determine what that psion can do with its selection of psionic abilities. Imagine if a warlock could change their Pact Boon at any time, and if each and every Invocation they selected had the potential to act differently based on their currently active Boon. Your Agonizing
BlastStrike applies to Eldritch Blast while you bear the Tome, to your Pact weapon while you bear the Blade, and to the attacks delivered by your familiar while you bear the Chain, as just one simple example.THAT is the kind of emergent depth I'm hoping for in a Psion. I'll never get it, though. 5e is deathly, mortally terrified of depth, because people who can't see the bottom of the pool won't jump in. They need to be able to see the bottom, see everything laid out for them and understand it all within a single 144-character Twitter post, or they bail. Thus why the God Damned Champion fighter remains so infuriatingly popular, and why I assume Wizards only strays from that template of "abilities so simple we could teach Koko the Gorilla how to play them" when they absolutely cannot figure out any other way to continue to abrogate their game design responsibilities.
So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
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Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
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First, great post. I couldn't have said it better, and I tried.
(Second, I currently am playing a hexblade warlock. It is infuriatingly lacking in player options for me. People say that the Warlock is a complex class, but it really isn't. You're either a eldritch spammer, hexblade that does less damage than an eldritch blast spammer, or you are a celestial warlock that tries to focus on support. I love your idea of swapping pact boons, I wish that was already integrated into the class.)
The Psion class, if we get one, I hope it is at least as variable as the Warlock in character options beyond subclasses.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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