Because I REFUSE to start a ridiculous quote chain and this forum's quoting tools suck donkey balls, I'm just gonna do this the old fashioned way.
Positron Said: "At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?"
Okay. Here's the thing. Point me to ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this has happened in all of 5e.
One.
One single time.
Wizards said a lot of big-sounding things when they were building this edition, promising all sorts of extra, optional rules layers and expanded options for people who wanted that extra depth. They have delivered on exactly NONE of it. Not once, in the entire history of this edition, has 'Expanded Optional Rules' become a thing. It is clear and obvious that Wizards has long since abandoned the whole notion of 'Expanded Optional Rules', so saying that Wizards should design a Psion class that is no more complex than the goddamned Champion fighter and then "add extra rules on top for the weird, unpleasant folks who somehow want that stuff" is a nonstarter and actively disingenuous.
No. Whatever the 'base' Psion is, if and when it ever exists, that is the Psion we will all be stuck with. So don't feed me that line, if you would be so kind.
I'm sorry, I wasn't talking at all about the Psion. Just that warlocks were cool. Not trying to start an argument. (Is this a response to me? If not, disregard it.)
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You're fine, Joel. I was speaking to the post Positron made while I was writing my other one. I just despise DDB's quotation tool and use it as little as possible, due to a hatred of million mile long quote chains that are a readability nightmare.
Back on topic, I agree that a Psion 2.0 (or advanced Psion) will never get made. If they even do make the full class, it would unprecedented for them to make an advanced version. I'd prefer a more complex version in general, to make it more unique and interesting.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
But, there really isn't a way to design psionics in a way that everyone will enjoy. They tried the Mystic, which was too long, complicated, overpowered and just a hot mess. They tried the subclasses with no new mechanics to unify psionics, and people seemed to like that, except the people who want more mechanics for psionics. They then added a unifying psionic ability to all the subclasses, and the masses didn't like it.
You will never get 100% approval on anything. At some point, you have to give up designing something for everyone, and start designing something to target a certain group of people.
I want a Psion class. You don't. You want it subclass based, right? I don't. You want to try a ton of new psionic options until everyone likes it, but that will not work. They cannot keep trying to design psionics in a way that makes everyone like it. Eventually, they're going to have to make a dumbed down, simple subclass psionic system for the people who just want to play psionics without the hassle of learning a new system. Then, after the do that, they're going to have to appeal to my group, like they said they will. That means one of the following things:
They make a new class for Psionics, not super complicated, but complex enough to appease my side. This is the best option. It takes nothing away from you, Positron, and just gives me more. This will make most people happy.
They ruin the subclasses by making them more complex. This will make literally no "sizable" group of people happy, and is probably the 2nd worst idea.
They make alternate versions of the subclasses, one simple, one complicated. This will make barely anyone happy. Players that want simple psionics will be confused as to why there are multiple options, and which they should pick, and maybe have their egos hurt. My side will be upset that we don't get what we really want, but cut our losses and either ban psionics and use homebrew, or use the new subclasses that are more complex.
They ignore my side and just go with simple subclass psionics. This is the worst option they can do, as they further alienate my side.
Does this make sense? They literally cannot appeal to everyone with one version of psionics. They have to make multiple versions to make most people happy with psionics.
Sure, if we make a new complex class with the restriction of "This smart to ride the system" that will upset some people, but they just have to realize that they literally cannot make everyone happy. They can make the most people happy, and making a new class is the best way to do this.
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You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
Ah, well they're not going to release a book wholly dedicated to psionics. The closest thing to that would be a Dark Sun book.
What I mean by "psionics-themed subclasses" is that they're subclasses for the other classes. It's the Psychic Warrior Fighter, Soul Knife Rogue, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. A psion class would definitely have subclasses, but these aren't the "psionic-themed subclasses", they're just "Psion subclasses".
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
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The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
As Saga and Levi said, the ideal goal is subclasses for other character classes to be the oversimplified, mechanically barren stuff the K.I.S.S. folks want, while the Psion class itself is more complex and nuanced. That allows for people with 'character concepts that are Psionic' to utilize those subclasses for the fighter, rogue, sorcerer, monk, what-have-you and avoid the depth they don't want, while people with a need for more engaging gameplay can gravitate to the Psion.
As to your other point? The warlock is not complex. Not really. The warlock is variable. The warlock has more decision points, by far, than other classes. If that means complexity to you, then yes, the warlock is complex. But none of the warlock's individual abilities are remotely difficult to grasp or understand. The interactions between those simple options create emergent complexity, which is another name for depth. You say "It's okay for the psion to be as complicated as the warlock! We're not trying to make it as simple as the Champion fighter!"
I say that the psion needs to be at least as complex and emergent as the warlock. You should be glad I'm not in charge of designing a psion class, Positron. My notion would involve at least three layers of branching decision trees, any of which save maybe the first one could change whenever the psion desired to reconfigure into a new set of options. A psion I designed would have access to several different psionic 'stances' of sorts, which determine what that psion can do with its selection of psionic abilities. Imagine if a warlock could change their Pact Boon at any time, and if each and every Invocation they selected had the potential to act differently based on their currently active Boon. Your Agonizing Blast Strike applies to Eldritch Blast while you bear the Tome, to your Pact weapon while you bear the Blade, and to the attacks delivered by your familiar while you bear the Chain, as just one simple example.
THAT is the kind of emergent depth I'm hoping for in a Psion. I'll never get it, though. 5e is deathly, mortally terrified of depth, because people who can't see the bottom of the pool won't jump in. They need to be able to see the bottom, see everything laid out for them and understand it all within a single 144-character Twitter post, or they bail. Thus why the God Damned Champion fighter remains so infuriatingly popular, and why I assume Wizards only strays from that template of "abilities so simple we could teach Koko the Gorilla how to play them" when they absolutely cannot figure out any other way to continue to abrogate their game design responsibilities.
So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I said, haha XD
Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
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So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
First, great post. I couldn't have said it better, and I tried.
(Second, I currently am playing a hexblade warlock. It is infuriatingly lacking in player options for me. People say that the Warlock is a complex class, but it really isn't. You're either a eldritch spammer, hexblade that does less damage than an eldritch blast spammer, or you are a celestial warlock that tries to focus on support. I love your idea of swapping pact boons, I wish that was already integrated into the class.)
The Psion class, if we get one, I hope it is at least as variable as the Warlock in character options beyond subclasses.
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Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
As Saga and Levi said, the ideal goal is subclasses for other character classes to be the oversimplified, mechanically barren stuff the K.I.S.S. folks want, while the Psion class itself is more complex and nuanced. That allows for people with 'character concepts that are Psionic' to utilize those subclasses for the fighter, rogue, sorcerer, monk, what-have-you and avoid the depth they don't want, while people with a need for more engaging gameplay can gravitate to the Psion.
As to your other point? The warlock is not complex. Not really. The warlock is variable. The warlock has more decision points, by far, than other classes. If that means complexity to you, then yes, the warlock is complex. But none of the warlock's individual abilities are remotely difficult to grasp or understand. The interactions between those simple options create emergent complexity, which is another name for depth. You say "It's okay for the psion to be as complicated as the warlock! We're not trying to make it as simple as the Champion fighter!"
I say that the psion needs to be at least as complex and emergent as the warlock. You should be glad I'm not in charge of designing a psion class, Positron. My notion would involve at least three layers of branching decision trees, any of which save maybe the first one could change whenever the psion desired to reconfigure into a new set of options. A psion I designed would have access to several different psionic 'stances' of sorts, which determine what that psion can do with its selection of psionic abilities. Imagine if a warlock could change their Pact Boon at any time, and if each and every Invocation they selected had the potential to act differently based on their currently active Boon. Your Agonizing Blast Strike applies to Eldritch Blast while you bear the Tome, to your Pact weapon while you bear the Blade, and to the attacks delivered by your familiar while you bear the Chain, as just one simple example.
THAT is the kind of emergent depth I'm hoping for in a Psion. I'll never get it, though. 5e is deathly, mortally terrified of depth, because people who can't see the bottom of the pool won't jump in. They need to be able to see the bottom, see everything laid out for them and understand it all within a single 144-character Twitter post, or they bail. Thus why the God Damned Champion fighter remains so infuriatingly popular, and why I assume Wizards only strays from that template of "abilities so simple we could teach Koko the Gorilla how to play them" when they absolutely cannot figure out any other way to continue to abrogate their game design responsibilities.
So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
Could you quickly get a job at WoTC? I would like to see this psion officially published.
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Through intense study and meditation, you have unlocked secrets within your mind many thought to be impossible.While spellcasters create effects by utilizing a limited resource until depleted, whether through components, channeling the power of their gods or patrons, or some other source, yours is special and comes from your own mind.This stretching of the psyche and expanded imagination also manifests in your Psionic effects.You do not receive spell slots to cast spells, instead you recreate their effects, and you can do so until you exhaust your mind to its Psionic Limit.You can only recreate spells at a level up to the level listed on the Psion class table.Your limit is equal to your level in this class.Recreating a spell effect is considered casting the spell at the level you are recreating it for the purposes of spells like Detect Magic or Counterspell.
Whenever you recreate the effect of a spell, you add the level at which the spell effect was cast to a cumulative total.This total cannot exceed your Psionic Limit.Whenever you finish a short or long rest, this total resets to 0.”
+ Later levels risk casting beyond the limit but at the cost of exhaustion
+ Add a focus type mechanic that makes it so you don’t need material without cost OR vocal if in the range of telepathy
This is what I picture.It may not be what you guys want exactly, and I didn’t put a chart down but would probably follow Warlock spell levels, then add a Mystic arcanum like feature later.I’m curious what is wrong with doing this and what the benefit is of making it more complicated to experience narratively?
This is what I picture.It may not be what you guys want exactly, and I didn’t put a chart down but would probably follow Warlock spell levels, then add a Mystic arcanum like feature later.I’m curious what is wrong with doing this and what the benefit is of making it more complicated to experience narratively?
The problem with that is the use of spells to replicate psionics. If you want just the subclasses, great, you're going to get them. Enjoy your psionics. We want a new system for psionics, not just replicating pact magic or spellcasting. This makes it too simple, and infuriatingly lacking in the depth psionics can have.
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The problem with that is the use of spells to replicate psionics. If you want just the subclasses, great, you're going to get them. Enjoy your psionics. We want a new system for psionics, not just replicating pact magic or spellcasting. This makes it too simple, and infuriatingly lacking in the depth psionics can have.
I think my question is more narratively. If this version of Psion exists and is creating spell effects (mostly Illusion and Enchantment with some new ones added in) and it has this more flexible version of casting spells that basically does what points do, what in the game is your version doing that this one wouldn’t? I understand you want “depth” which I would maybe phrase as “intricacy” but that is not narratively different, just your experience performing the same things? Unless I am mistaken, I just haven’t seen any examples.
The problem with that is the use of spells to replicate psionics. If you want just the subclasses, great, you're going to get them. Enjoy your psionics. We want a new system for psionics, not just replicating pact magic or spellcasting. This makes it too simple, and infuriatingly lacking in the depth psionics can have.
I think my question is more narratively. If this version of Psion exists and is creating spell effects (mostly Illusion and Enchantment with some new ones added in) and it has this more flexible version of casting spells that basically does what points do, what in the game is your version doing that this one wouldn’t? I understand you want “depth” which I would maybe phrase as “intricacy” but that is not narratively different, just your experience performing the same things? Unless I am mistaken, I just haven’t seen any examples.
Okay, think of it like this. You know how jedi can lift rocks and other objects, right? They have to start out small, and move onto heavier and heavier objects later on. So, the Psion would have an ability to lift objects and creatures at level one, and it would scale as you level up, to heavier objects and creatures, more objects and creatures at once, and being able to use force to crush the objects and creatures you're using telekinesis on. This can't be accomplished with spells reflavored as psionics.
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Okay, think of it like this. You know how jedi can lift rocks and other objects, right? They have to start out small, and move onto heavier and heavier objects later on. So, the Psion would have an ability to lift objects and creatures at level one, and it would scale as you level up, to heavier objects and creatures, more objects and creatures at once, and being able to use force to crush the objects and creatures you're using telekinesis on. This can't be accomplished with spells reflavored as psionics.
Ok, so you choose a single effect as this class (let’s stick to Telekinetics) and it scales as you level in the class. Mechanically does this work like a ranged weapon or extension of yourself? For example, are you making an attack roll, grapple check? Does it increase with your Int Mod or Proficiency bonus?
You're focusing on the narrative, Positron. The idea that the mechanics "shouldn't get in the way of the story". That someone who has a strong desire to play a powerful psychic character should be able to do so without any more investment in or mastery of the system beyond that required to play a Champion fighter.
The issue you're running into is that for many of us, "mechanics" and "story" are not two separate things, each to be weighed and settled on with one held paramount. Story informs mechanics enforces story defines mechanics. If the two do not work hand in hand, the mechanics intuitively deriving from the lore and the lore neatly dsescribing the mechanical effects, then the game as a whole is off and will continue to be off no matter what either of those things does.
You want psionics to just be another form of spellcasting. Use the same spells with the same rules as every other spellcaster in the game because that's what's comfortable for you and your table, and you don't care what the mechanics are so long as they're not Getting In The Way. Well, on this end of the bridge the lack of mechanics is what's Getting In The Way. The slipshod, ramshackle implementation of psionics sucks and makes it effectively impossible to play a psionic character. Trust me - I've tried.
Great example - the Arcane Trickster makes a better 'psychic rogue' than the Soulknife does. Take some of the psionic talent feats from the latest UA (if you're using a version of character progression that allows for it), and select an AT spell list that reflects psychic talent, and the Trickster is much closer to a proper 'psychic' rogue than the Soulknife. Either version of the Soulknife. That is not to say it's close. It could sorta-kinda stand in for an untrained, streetwise wild talent with only minor psionic abilities if you squint sideways hard enough and decide that you Want To Believe, but that's as far as it goes.
The only other class that came anywhere close? Believe it or not, the School of Psionics wizard, provided you treated it as exactly what Wizards-the-shitty-game-devs said it was - a magical researcher who specialized in rigorous arcanoscientific study of psionic manifestations without necessarily having a psionic gift themselves. That was an interesting flavor and I miss it, though at least I lucked out enough to still have a character built on it so huzzah me.
Nevertheless. Without some bones under the meat, 'psionics' doesn't properly exist. You can't just twist the spellcasting engine around to make psionics, because PSYCHIC POWERS ARE NOT WIZARDRY. Psychic powers are distinct and separate from arcane magic and divine miracles and need to be treated as such, or it will. Not. Work.
Because believe it or not, some of us care about the game underneath the story as much as we care about the story. If the two don't harmonize, it's a bad experience. If we didn't care about the numbers we'd just go play Overlight or FATE or the like, ne?
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Because I REFUSE to start a ridiculous quote chain and this forum's quoting tools suck donkey balls, I'm just gonna do this the old fashioned way.
Positron Said:
"At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?"
Okay. Here's the thing. Point me to ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this has happened in all of 5e.
One.
One single time.
Wizards said a lot of big-sounding things when they were building this edition, promising all sorts of extra, optional rules layers and expanded options for people who wanted that extra depth. They have delivered on exactly NONE of it. Not once, in the entire history of this edition, has 'Expanded Optional Rules' become a thing. It is clear and obvious that Wizards has long since abandoned the whole notion of 'Expanded Optional Rules', so saying that Wizards should design a Psion class that is no more complex than the goddamned Champion fighter and then "add extra rules on top for the weird, unpleasant folks who somehow want that stuff" is a nonstarter and actively disingenuous.
No. Whatever the 'base' Psion is, if and when it ever exists, that is the Psion we will all be stuck with. So don't feed me that line, if you would be so kind.
Please do not contact or message me.
I'm sorry, I wasn't talking at all about the Psion. Just that warlocks were cool. Not trying to start an argument. (Is this a response to me? If not, disregard it.)
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My Improved Lineage System
You're fine, Joel. I was speaking to the post Positron made while I was writing my other one. I just despise DDB's quotation tool and use it as little as possible, due to a hatred of million mile long quote chains that are a readability nightmare.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ah. No problem.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Back on topic, I agree that a Psion 2.0 (or advanced Psion) will never get made. If they even do make the full class, it would unprecedented for them to make an advanced version. I'd prefer a more complex version in general, to make it more unique and interesting.
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My Improved Lineage System
To be nice, I will quote, but ask anyone who would like to quote to only quote one post, to avoid a huge quote chain:
(This was already kind of covered by Yurei, but I want to add on)
But, there really isn't a way to design psionics in a way that everyone will enjoy. They tried the Mystic, which was too long, complicated, overpowered and just a hot mess. They tried the subclasses with no new mechanics to unify psionics, and people seemed to like that, except the people who want more mechanics for psionics. They then added a unifying psionic ability to all the subclasses, and the masses didn't like it.
You will never get 100% approval on anything. At some point, you have to give up designing something for everyone, and start designing something to target a certain group of people.
I want a Psion class. You don't. You want it subclass based, right? I don't. You want to try a ton of new psionic options until everyone likes it, but that will not work. They cannot keep trying to design psionics in a way that makes everyone like it. Eventually, they're going to have to make a dumbed down, simple subclass psionic system for the people who just want to play psionics without the hassle of learning a new system. Then, after the do that, they're going to have to appeal to my group, like they said they will. That means one of the following things:
Does this make sense? They literally cannot appeal to everyone with one version of psionics. They have to make multiple versions to make most people happy with psionics.
Sure, if we make a new complex class with the restriction of "This smart to ride the system" that will upset some people, but they just have to realize that they literally cannot make everyone happy. They can make the most people happy, and making a new class is the best way to do this.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You’re touching on this, LeviRocks, but a “psion” base class and simple psionics-flavored subclasses aren’t mutually exclusive.
Acknowledging my own limited perspective as a user, the path that seems blindingly obvious to me is to release a psionics book that includes one base class with new mechanics, a bunch of flavorful subclasses that are mechanically less complex, and a nice, thick bestiary. That’s as close to “satisfying everyone” as I think they could possibly get.
To Yukei:
Everyone is not meant to mean 100% of people who play the game, but appealing to most people who are interested in a design. The point is that you want most of the players who have a character concept that is Psionic to enjoy playing the class, no matter their level of experience or preference in mechanics. Also can you please stop saying we want the Psion to be as complex as a Champion fighter? I never have said that, I actually would be fine with something equal in complexity to the Warlock. My entire point is it’s fine to have something that is a different take within the existing mechanics (like the Warlock does)... most of us just turn away from an entire alternate system to spell casting. I just suggest that you achieve the same goals you would have in the new system, but utilizing existing terms, mechanics, and systems to achieve them. If the point system is meant to display the flexibility of the Psion, can’t you tweak spells to be more flexible than any other caster in the game? This way newer tables can have this material and not be confused on how it potentially interacts with magic?
Ah, well they're not going to release a book wholly dedicated to psionics. The closest thing to that would be a Dark Sun book.
What I mean by "psionics-themed subclasses" is that they're subclasses for the other classes. It's the Psychic Warrior Fighter, Soul Knife Rogue, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. A psion class would definitely have subclasses, but these aren't the "psionic-themed subclasses", they're just "Psion subclasses".
The closest thing WotC could do to satisfying everyone is making simple Soul Knife Rogues, Psychic Warrior Fighters, and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers, along with a new class based on psionics.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah, that’s exactly what I said, haha XD
As Saga and Levi said, the ideal goal is subclasses for other character classes to be the oversimplified, mechanically barren stuff the K.I.S.S. folks want, while the Psion class itself is more complex and nuanced. That allows for people with 'character concepts that are Psionic' to utilize those subclasses for the fighter, rogue, sorcerer, monk, what-have-you and avoid the depth they don't want, while people with a need for more engaging gameplay can gravitate to the Psion.
As to your other point? The warlock is not complex. Not really. The warlock is variable. The warlock has more decision points, by far, than other classes. If that means complexity to you, then yes, the warlock is complex. But none of the warlock's individual abilities are remotely difficult to grasp or understand. The interactions between those simple options create emergent complexity, which is another name for depth. You say "It's okay for the psion to be as complicated as the warlock! We're not trying to make it as simple as the Champion fighter!"
I say that the psion needs to be at least as complex and emergent as the warlock. You should be glad I'm not in charge of designing a psion class, Positron. My notion would involve at least three layers of branching decision trees, any of which save maybe the first one could change whenever the psion desired to reconfigure into a new set of options. A psion I designed would have access to several different psionic 'stances' of sorts, which determine what that psion can do with its selection of psionic abilities. Imagine if a warlock could change their Pact Boon at any time, and if each and every Invocation they selected had the potential to act differently based on their currently active Boon. Your Agonizing
BlastStrike applies to Eldritch Blast while you bear the Tome, to your Pact weapon while you bear the Blade, and to the attacks delivered by your familiar while you bear the Chain, as just one simple example.THAT is the kind of emergent depth I'm hoping for in a Psion. I'll never get it, though. 5e is deathly, mortally terrified of depth, because people who can't see the bottom of the pool won't jump in. They need to be able to see the bottom, see everything laid out for them and understand it all within a single 144-character Twitter post, or they bail. Thus why the God Damned Champion fighter remains so infuriatingly popular, and why I assume Wizards only strays from that template of "abilities so simple we could teach Koko the Gorilla how to play them" when they absolutely cannot figure out any other way to continue to abrogate their game design responsibilities.
So. Let us hope you get your simple subclasses while we get a base Psion class worthy of the name. Because like I said earlier, there's only so many warlocks I can play, it'd be nice to have another class that actually respects my friggin' intelligence enough to be worth my time.
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Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
First, great post. I couldn't have said it better, and I tried.
(Second, I currently am playing a hexblade warlock. It is infuriatingly lacking in player options for me. People say that the Warlock is a complex class, but it really isn't. You're either a eldritch spammer, hexblade that does less damage than an eldritch blast spammer, or you are a celestial warlock that tries to focus on support. I love your idea of swapping pact boons, I wish that was already integrated into the class.)
The Psion class, if we get one, I hope it is at least as variable as the Warlock in character options beyond subclasses.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Could you quickly get a job at WoTC? I would like to see this psion officially published.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
“Psionics:
Through intense study and meditation, you have unlocked secrets within your mind many thought to be impossible. While spellcasters create effects by utilizing a limited resource until depleted, whether through components, channeling the power of their gods or patrons, or some other source, yours is special and comes from your own mind. This stretching of the psyche and expanded imagination also manifests in your Psionic effects. You do not receive spell slots to cast spells, instead you recreate their effects, and you can do so until you exhaust your mind to its Psionic Limit. You can only recreate spells at a level up to the level listed on the Psion class table. Your limit is equal to your level in this class. Recreating a spell effect is considered casting the spell at the level you are recreating it for the purposes of spells like Detect Magic or Counterspell.
Whenever you recreate the effect of a spell, you add the level at which the spell effect was cast to a cumulative total. This total cannot exceed your Psionic Limit. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, this total resets to 0.”
+ Later levels risk casting beyond the limit but at the cost of exhaustion
+ Add a focus type mechanic that makes it so you don’t need material without cost OR vocal if in the range of telepathy
This is what I picture. It may not be what you guys want exactly, and I didn’t put a chart down but would probably follow Warlock spell levels, then add a Mystic arcanum like feature later. I’m curious what is wrong with doing this and what the benefit is of making it more complicated to experience narratively?
The problem with that is the use of spells to replicate psionics. If you want just the subclasses, great, you're going to get them. Enjoy your psionics. We want a new system for psionics, not just replicating pact magic or spellcasting. This makes it too simple, and infuriatingly lacking in the depth psionics can have.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think my question is more narratively. If this version of Psion exists and is creating spell effects (mostly Illusion and Enchantment with some new ones added in) and it has this more flexible version of casting spells that basically does what points do, what in the game is your version doing that this one wouldn’t? I understand you want “depth” which I would maybe phrase as “intricacy” but that is not narratively different, just your experience performing the same things? Unless I am mistaken, I just haven’t seen any examples.
Okay, think of it like this. You know how jedi can lift rocks and other objects, right? They have to start out small, and move onto heavier and heavier objects later on. So, the Psion would have an ability to lift objects and creatures at level one, and it would scale as you level up, to heavier objects and creatures, more objects and creatures at once, and being able to use force to crush the objects and creatures you're using telekinesis on. This can't be accomplished with spells reflavored as psionics.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Ok, so you choose a single effect as this class (let’s stick to Telekinetics) and it scales as you level in the class. Mechanically does this work like a ranged weapon or extension of yourself? For example, are you making an attack roll, grapple check? Does it increase with your Int Mod or Proficiency bonus?
You're focusing on the narrative, Positron. The idea that the mechanics "shouldn't get in the way of the story". That someone who has a strong desire to play a powerful psychic character should be able to do so without any more investment in or mastery of the system beyond that required to play a Champion fighter.
The issue you're running into is that for many of us, "mechanics" and "story" are not two separate things, each to be weighed and settled on with one held paramount. Story informs mechanics enforces story defines mechanics. If the two do not work hand in hand, the mechanics intuitively deriving from the lore and the lore neatly dsescribing the mechanical effects, then the game as a whole is off and will continue to be off no matter what either of those things does.
You want psionics to just be another form of spellcasting. Use the same spells with the same rules as every other spellcaster in the game because that's what's comfortable for you and your table, and you don't care what the mechanics are so long as they're not Getting In The Way. Well, on this end of the bridge the lack of mechanics is what's Getting In The Way. The slipshod, ramshackle implementation of psionics sucks and makes it effectively impossible to play a psionic character. Trust me - I've tried.
Great example - the Arcane Trickster makes a better 'psychic rogue' than the Soulknife does. Take some of the psionic talent feats from the latest UA (if you're using a version of character progression that allows for it), and select an AT spell list that reflects psychic talent, and the Trickster is much closer to a proper 'psychic' rogue than the Soulknife. Either version of the Soulknife. That is not to say it's close. It could sorta-kinda stand in for an untrained, streetwise wild talent with only minor psionic abilities if you squint sideways hard enough and decide that you Want To Believe, but that's as far as it goes.
The only other class that came anywhere close? Believe it or not, the School of Psionics wizard, provided you treated it as exactly what Wizards-the-shitty-game-devs said it was - a magical researcher who specialized in rigorous arcanoscientific study of psionic manifestations without necessarily having a psionic gift themselves. That was an interesting flavor and I miss it, though at least I lucked out enough to still have a character built on it so huzzah me.
Nevertheless. Without some bones under the meat, 'psionics' doesn't properly exist. You can't just twist the spellcasting engine around to make psionics, because PSYCHIC POWERS ARE NOT WIZARDRY. Psychic powers are distinct and separate from arcane magic and divine miracles and need to be treated as such, or it will. Not. Work.
Because believe it or not, some of us care about the game underneath the story as much as we care about the story. If the two don't harmonize, it's a bad experience. If we didn't care about the numbers we'd just go play Overlight or FATE or the like, ne?
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