Anyone else actually annoyed how they destroyed the Magic system in the recreation of the Dragonlance material? The moons were supposed to influence all the arcane magic not be tied to a bloodline in sorcery also not sure if I care how they handled the background for knights or Tower of high sorcery mages. Seems to have misplaced the benefits of the robe colors in the orders. Think I'll be sticking to the 3.5 and modified Tasslehof guide over on dragonlance nexus.
Anyone else actually annoyed how they destroyed the Magic system in the recreation of the Dragonlance material? The moons were supposed to influence all the arcane magic not be tied to a bloodline in sorcery also not sure if I care how they handled the background for knights or Tower of high sorcery mages. Seems to have misplaced the benefits of the robe colors in the orders. Think I'll be sticking to the 3.5 and modified Tasslehof guide over on dragonlance nexus.
Right there with you; Like the moons thing is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of how magic works in the setting and Like... anywhere else it would be fine but not here.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Ok, I'll bite. How is a Knight of Solamnia different from a Fighter? I actually had some pause when the Knight backgrounds and features are available to other Martials, etc. Knights of Solamnia, at least as portrayed in the original trilogy are just fighters with presumably mounted combat training.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Anyone else actually annoyed how they destroyed the Magic system in the recreation of the Dragonlance material? The moons were supposed to influence all the arcane magic not be tied to a bloodline in sorcery also not sure if I care how they handled the background for knights or Tower of high sorcery mages. Seems to have misplaced the benefits of the robe colors in the orders. Think I'll be sticking to the 3.5 and modified Tasslehof guide over on dragonlance nexus.
Right there with you; Like the moons thing is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of how magic works in the setting and Like... anywhere else it would be fine but not here.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Yup, It's almost like they never read the original trilogy or looked at the AD&D ruleset.
How would you possibly incorporate the moons' affect on magic from the original rules into 5E in any sort of coherent, playable form? One of the biggest problems with Dragonlance was that it was designed as a novel setting first and a game setting after, which made for some seriously awkward rules.
And a Knight of Solamnia was basically a paladin but with a bigger stick (somehow) but without nifty magic abilities as compensation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
How would you possibly incorporate the moons' affect on magic from the original rules into 5E in any sort of coherent, playable form? One of the biggest problems with Dragonlance was that it was designed as a novel setting first and a game setting after, which made for some seriously awkward rules.
And a Knight of Solamnia was basically a paladin but with a bigger stick (somehow) but without nifty magic abilities as compensation.
You mean the original Knight of Solamnia in AD&D was a cavalier? That sounds like what you're talking about, and I can see that; but the AD&D cavalier was more the "legend" of Solamnic Knights where the reality seemed much more in line with the 5e Fighter with Knight or Cavalier subclass. They're not put in a good light in the OT until an outsider takes leadership fo them. I remember some folks thought the Cavalier in AD&D's honor code sometimes forced it to behave "tactical stupid" which actually is much in line with the first major engagement the books address (from the periphery, sending the lead back decapitated).
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Ok, I'll bite. How is a Knight of Solamnia different from a Fighter? I actually had some pause when the Knight backgrounds and features are available to other Martials, etc. Knights of Solamnia, at least as portrayed in the original trilogy are just fighters with presumably mounted combat training.
The way knights are presented they're more structured and organized then what I would generally expect from a fighter in terms of their training, fighting style and sensibilities which would nominally put them closer to a paladin... but they don't really have the mystical abilities of a paladin at their disposal either.
To my mind, the best approach would be to try and hybridize aspects of both classes to create a more generalized build for players; things like the paladin's fighting style options, aura of courage and maybe a few other similar powers combined with a handful of fighter powers like indomitable. Beyond that I'd have a system wherein players can take vows to confer benefits at given levels to reflect their entry into the three different orders of the knighthood (Those being Crown, Sword and finally rose) with these having effects on combat and/or RP.
From what I remember in the novels the Knights would be a group of lawful good fighters. They have a code, they're on the 'good' side of the conflict. They can have corruption among the ranks etc they're not perfect but for the most part a good organization. They are the knights in shining armor that are often associated with paladins. But they aren't paladins, and don't have divine abilities by and large.
For the War of the Lance this was to be expected. Since divine magic was missing since the calamity and only now coming back. But I don't recall the KoS showing any divine magic use afterwards either in dragons of summer flame. And then there was the whole war of souls thing where divine magic disappeared AGAIN. I didn't really follow what happened much after that trilogy but at no point in that books I did read, did they seem like an order of actual paladins.
How would you possibly incorporate the moons' affect on magic from the original rules into 5E in any sort of coherent, playable form? One of the biggest problems with Dragonlance was that it was designed as a novel setting first and a game setting after, which made for some seriously awkward rules.
The biggest flaw with the Knights were that they were so far up their own backsides when it came to honor and tradition that they were very inflexible. They had to fight in a certain way, which made it easy for an enemy with a functioning brain to exploit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In the AD&D days you didn't need rules to govern player behavior or to differentiate a mercenary (fighter) from a Knight (fighter) or a militia guard (fighter). You read or created the lore and acted accordingly, we referred to the concept as role-playing.
We didn’t need them but they were out there for us if we wanted them. Or do you not recall the Unearthed Arcana or Dragonlance books of 1e not to mention the 3rd party stuff from Role Aids. Then 2E gave us all the class splat books with Kits. 3e did it with Prestige Classes. So yea the rules have been there for us as we needed them.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Ok, I'll bite. How is a Knight of Solamnia different from a Fighter? I actually had some pause when the Knight backgrounds and features are available to other Martials, etc. Knights of Solamnia, at least as portrayed in the original trilogy are just fighters with presumably mounted combat training.
The way knights are presented they're more structured and organized then what I would generally expect from a fighter in terms of their training, fighting style and sensibilities which would nominally put them closer to a paladin... but they don't really have the mystical abilities of a paladin at their disposal either.
To my mind, the best approach would be to try and hybridize aspects of both classes to create a more generalized build for players; things like the paladin's fighting style options, aura of courage and maybe a few other similar powers combined with a handful of fighter powers like indomitable. Beyond that I'd have a system wherein players can take vows to confer benefits at given levels to reflect their entry into the three different orders of the knighthood (Those being Crown, Sword and finally rose) with these having effects on combat and/or RP.
Really feels like a wasted opportunity imho.
So you missed how the Heroes of Krynn UA took the initiative to create the Solamnic Knight background and feats for the orders which largely captures what you're talking about without bloating the rules with a needless class?
In the AD&D days you didn't need rules to govern player behavior or to differentiate a mercenary (fighter) from a Knight (fighter) or a militia guard (fighter). You read or created the lore and acted accordingly, we referred to the concept as role-playing.
We didn’t need them but they were out there for us if we wanted them. Or do you not recall the Unearthed Arcana or Dragonlance books of 1e not to mention the 3rd party stuff from Role Aids. Then 2E gave us all the class splat books with Kits. 3e did it with Prestige Classes. So yea the rules have been there for us as we needed them.
AD&D's Cavalier has been discussed, and the class has been ported over to 5e as a subclass of the Fighter, where it works well. Keep in mind the "combat god" classes of AD&D (Palladin, then Barbarian and Cavalier) were considered strokes of luck but a lot of RAW tables, requiring pre-reqs that would be hard to attain via contemporary standard array or point buy techniques, not quite psionic power odds, but the idea that a party would have more than one of any would have been astronomical had folks not munchkin fudged them into being.
Beyond AD&D, those kits did not "govern" player behavior, and functionally they were not at all the "completely new class" for Knights being asked here. The kits functioned closer to the way subclasses, backgrounds, and feats presently function in 5e. Maybe there's something lacking from prestige classes, but your Dragonlance campaigns didn't (and from description of the forthcoming book, won't) have the heroes so exaulted at the start of the campaign.
Again, 5e looks to be providing a way to distinguish someone on the Solamnic Knight path, or even someone who takes the vows of the Solamnic order after character creation (to allow for say a Laurana type) just fine through the squire then order feats provided in the most recent UA. We'll definitely see character options for Knights of Solamnia, there's just no need for a whole class, since on paper they're fighters tied into a social construct conferring "chivalry or nobility" regardless if that construction is really warranted to the Order at large or particular individuals at the time of the War of the Lance. They just aren't that special, looking at their performance during the war, they're pretty Mid till Laurana takes charge.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Ok, I'll bite. How is a Knight of Solamnia different from a Fighter? I actually had some pause when the Knight backgrounds and features are available to other Martials, etc. Knights of Solamnia, at least as portrayed in the original trilogy are just fighters with presumably mounted combat training.
The way knights are presented they're more structured and organized then what I would generally expect from a fighter in terms of their training, fighting style and sensibilities which would nominally put them closer to a paladin... but they don't really have the mystical abilities of a paladin at their disposal either.
To my mind, the best approach would be to try and hybridize aspects of both classes to create a more generalized build for players; things like the paladin's fighting style options, aura of courage and maybe a few other similar powers combined with a handful of fighter powers like indomitable. Beyond that I'd have a system wherein players can take vows to confer benefits at given levels to reflect their entry into the three different orders of the knighthood (Those being Crown, Sword and finally rose) with these having effects on combat and/or RP.
Really feels like a wasted opportunity imho.
Have to agree with Midnight here, both fighter and paladin are much broader classes than you're giving them credit for and either could easily work here. Structure, organization, training, sensibilities... these are all fluff and can be whatever you want. If you don't want magic, go fighter. And if you want to lean hard on the pre-existing fluff, then cavalier is probably the best subclass. If you want to pick certain spells and reflavor the magic, paladin works too. If you can't decide, you can multiclass. I could think of dozens of classes that would be more useful to this game than something between fighter and paladin.
Mayabe they could be in the right hands, but the quintessential Kender Tasslehoff sounds like a nightmare to actually play a game with.
Kender are an example of how the setting was designed more as a device for writing novels than writing RPGs. And Tass, as depicted in most of the books, is much better than most kender.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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HERE.Anyone else actually annoyed how they destroyed the Magic system in the recreation of the Dragonlance material? The moons were supposed to influence all the arcane magic not be tied to a bloodline in sorcery also not sure if I care how they handled the background for knights or Tower of high sorcery mages. Seems to have misplaced the benefits of the robe colors in the orders. Think I'll be sticking to the 3.5 and modified Tasslehof guide over on dragonlance nexus.
Right there with you; Like the moons thing is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of how magic works in the setting and Like... anywhere else it would be fine but not here.
The other thing that got to me was that they appear to have completely passed up an opportunity for a new class with Knights of Solamnia; like I'd argue that they're distinct enough that they don't really fit the mold of any of the other martial classes at present.
Ok, I'll bite. How is a Knight of Solamnia different from a Fighter? I actually had some pause when the Knight backgrounds and features are available to other Martials, etc. Knights of Solamnia, at least as portrayed in the original trilogy are just fighters with presumably mounted combat training.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yup, It's almost like they never read the original trilogy or looked at the AD&D ruleset.
How would you possibly incorporate the moons' affect on magic from the original rules into 5E in any sort of coherent, playable form? One of the biggest problems with Dragonlance was that it was designed as a novel setting first and a game setting after, which made for some seriously awkward rules.
And a Knight of Solamnia was basically a paladin but with a bigger stick (somehow) but without nifty magic abilities as compensation.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You mean the original Knight of Solamnia in AD&D was a cavalier? That sounds like what you're talking about, and I can see that; but the AD&D cavalier was more the "legend" of Solamnic Knights where the reality seemed much more in line with the 5e Fighter with Knight or Cavalier subclass. They're not put in a good light in the OT until an outsider takes leadership fo them. I remember some folks thought the Cavalier in AD&D's honor code sometimes forced it to behave "tactical stupid" which actually is much in line with the first major engagement the books address (from the periphery, sending the lead back decapitated).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don't think they had the actual cavalier kit, but they had very annoying codes of conduct.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The biggest flaw is Kender as a player race.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The way knights are presented they're more structured and organized then what I would generally expect from a fighter in terms of their training, fighting style and sensibilities which would nominally put them closer to a paladin... but they don't really have the mystical abilities of a paladin at their disposal either.
To my mind, the best approach would be to try and hybridize aspects of both classes to create a more generalized build for players; things like the paladin's fighting style options, aura of courage and maybe a few other similar powers combined with a handful of fighter powers like indomitable. Beyond that I'd have a system wherein players can take vows to confer benefits at given levels to reflect their entry into the three different orders of the knighthood (Those being Crown, Sword and finally rose) with these having effects on combat and/or RP.
Really feels like a wasted opportunity imho.
From what I remember in the novels the Knights would be a group of lawful good fighters. They have a code, they're on the 'good' side of the conflict. They can have corruption among the ranks etc they're not perfect but for the most part a good organization. They are the knights in shining armor that are often associated with paladins. But they aren't paladins, and don't have divine abilities by and large.
For the War of the Lance this was to be expected. Since divine magic was missing since the calamity and only now coming back. But I don't recall the KoS showing any divine magic use afterwards either in dragons of summer flame. And then there was the whole war of souls thing where divine magic disappeared AGAIN. I didn't really follow what happened much after that trilogy but at no point in that books I did read, did they seem like an order of actual paladins.
Agreed, I don't see this working out.
The biggest flaw with the Knights were that they were so far up their own backsides when it came to honor and tradition that they were very inflexible. They had to fight in a certain way, which made it easy for an enemy with a functioning brain to exploit.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
We didn’t need them but they were out there for us if we wanted them. Or do you not recall the Unearthed Arcana or Dragonlance books of 1e not to mention the 3rd party stuff from Role Aids. Then 2E gave us all the class splat books with Kits. 3e did it with Prestige Classes. So yea the rules have been there for us as we needed them.
So you missed how the Heroes of Krynn UA took the initiative to create the Solamnic Knight background and feats for the orders which largely captures what you're talking about without bloating the rules with a needless class?
AD&D's Cavalier has been discussed, and the class has been ported over to 5e as a subclass of the Fighter, where it works well. Keep in mind the "combat god" classes of AD&D (Palladin, then Barbarian and Cavalier) were considered strokes of luck but a lot of RAW tables, requiring pre-reqs that would be hard to attain via contemporary standard array or point buy techniques, not quite psionic power odds, but the idea that a party would have more than one of any would have been astronomical had folks not munchkin fudged them into being.
Beyond AD&D, those kits did not "govern" player behavior, and functionally they were not at all the "completely new class" for Knights being asked here. The kits functioned closer to the way subclasses, backgrounds, and feats presently function in 5e. Maybe there's something lacking from prestige classes, but your Dragonlance campaigns didn't (and from description of the forthcoming book, won't) have the heroes so exaulted at the start of the campaign.
Again, 5e looks to be providing a way to distinguish someone on the Solamnic Knight path, or even someone who takes the vows of the Solamnic order after character creation (to allow for say a Laurana type) just fine through the squire then order feats provided in the most recent UA. We'll definitely see character options for Knights of Solamnia, there's just no need for a whole class, since on paper they're fighters tied into a social construct conferring "chivalry or nobility" regardless if that construction is really warranted to the Order at large or particular individuals at the time of the War of the Lance. They just aren't that special, looking at their performance during the war, they're pretty Mid till Laurana takes charge.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
awww. Kender can be a fun race to have in a party, it just takes a particular kind of player to play them right.
Mayabe they could be in the right hands, but the quintessential Kender Tasslehoff sounds like a nightmare to actually play a game with.
Have to agree with Midnight here, both fighter and paladin are much broader classes than you're giving them credit for and either could easily work here. Structure, organization, training, sensibilities... these are all fluff and can be whatever you want. If you don't want magic, go fighter. And if you want to lean hard on the pre-existing fluff, then cavalier is probably the best subclass. If you want to pick certain spells and reflavor the magic, paladin works too. If you can't decide, you can multiclass. I could think of dozens of classes that would be more useful to this game than something between fighter and paladin.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Kender are an example of how the setting was designed more as a device for writing novels than writing RPGs. And Tass, as depicted in most of the books, is much better than most kender.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.