I am looking at protection from energy, poison, good, and evil and none of these spells provide any upscaling options allowing you to cover multiple party members with the spell. Is there any rationale behind this? Do you believe it is too powerful to allow upscaling with higher level spell slots?
At first I thought it was because they were Touch spells, so it would be a bit weird to allow multiple targets, but Enhance Ability, Fly, Freedom of Movement etc all allow multiple targets on an upcast and are also Touch, so that's probably not it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think it's because they're long-term concentration spells. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the spells I recall that let you upcast to target more people either aren't concentration or only last for a minute or so.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of [Tooltip Not Found] are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
The trick to Bear Barbs is to Incapacitate them to drop Rage. Obviously not something you can do in every encounter, but there’s a fairly large suite of tools for it.
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
Yet another reason why a good DM will ban spells, features, sub-classes, what-not, that makes the game actually not fun. PC's that are unkillable makes the game boring.
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
Yet another reason why a good DM will ban spells, features, sub-classes, what-not, that makes the game actually not fun. PC's that are unkillable makes the game boring.
Oh yes, heaven forfend a DM ever need to take one minute to identify the big obvious shutoff button on a class feature.
I am looking at protection from energy, poison, good, and evil and none of these spells provide any upscaling options allowing you to cover multiple party members with the spell. Is there any rationale behind this? Do you believe it is too powerful to allow upscaling with higher level spell slots?
If you could, it'd be easy for a mid-high level party to just not worry about elemental damage.
Since a number of prestige monsters (dragons), do elemental damage, they probably don't want to make it so cheap to neuter them.
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
Yet another reason why a good DM will ban spells, features, sub-classes, what-not, that makes the game actually not fun. PC's that are unkillable makes the game boring.
Oh yes, heaven forfend a DM ever need to take one minute to identify the big obvious shutoff button on a class feature.
That is exactly what a DM does by banning an OP subclass, spell, or feature.
I understand the desire to keep the pace of the game going but the spell does require concentration meaning there is no other concentration spell that caster can do henceforth during the encounter. , in the case of the barbarian, I would say there are many ways to deal with such a character that would make the encounter interesting. And just because a person is resistant to fire doesn’t mean they can be killed, a red dragon for example has many more tools in their arsenal beside breathing fire. Just a though.
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
I've played several barbarian characters and unless you're throwing weak monsters who aren't hitting that hard at the party, resistance hardly makes a character unkillable. Get two or three monsters that the barbarian can't drop swiftly and are capable of hitting several times per round and the damage adds up quickly.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
I've played several barbarian characters and unless you're throwing weak monsters who aren't hitting that hard at the party, resistance hardly makes a character unkillable. Get two or three monsters that the barbarian can't drop swiftly and are capable of hitting several times per round and the damage adds up quickly.
Yes, let me throw there or four enemies ganging up on them, and then listen to the complaints about me bullying them by ganging up on them every fight...because that's what I'm doing. I can kill any party I want to as DM, all I need to do is team up a bunch of CR20+ creatures like Tiamat, the Tarrasque etc and just go to town on them. I don't because it's not fun when the DM is obviously just trying to hurt you or effectively take away your earned feature. When you're Resistant to everything apart from Psychic...it either becomes obvious that I'm gunning for you, or you don't break a sweat.
Resistance is powerful and can become game distorting. And that's fine in small quantities and when you're making a sacrifice for it - a Barbarian, even a BearBarb, can be fine because they're sacrificing other class features for it. When you're just upcasting a spell to grant the entire party Resistance? That's when it starts getting really game distorting. To make an encounter a threat, a DM will either have to keep targeting the caster to break Concentration (because Casters love being the centre of attention and losing their spells after only a turn or so), or just blatantly double everything and make it either obvious that they're just nullifying the spell but with extra steps...or make it a must-have spell just to survive.
Without upcasting for extra targets, at least that's burning a lot of extra slots...or limiting how many of the party are covered, leaving vulnerable underbellies on the party.
5e has the issue that PCs (and monsters) are HP bags, so sooner or later, you have to get rid of all that HP. Fun abilities on both sides make it more interesting...but ultimately you still have to do it, which slows combat down a lot. Resistance just doubles how long that takes. You don't want to make it routine for characters to have Resistance.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The Barbarian is a tank class; by definition you want to be drawing aggro when you play it. Getting several creatures focusing on you doesn't mean you're being unfairly singled out, it means the class is working as designed.
There's a lot to comment on that, but let's stay on topic... you're proposing to give the core feature of the Barbarian, and what you're claiming is the point of the class, to everyone in the party at the cost of a single spell slot.
I hope you see what's wrong with that.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
There's a lot to comment on that, but let's stay on topic... you're proposing to give the core feature of the Barbarian, and what you're claiming is the point of the class, to everyone in the party at the cost of a single spell slot.
I hope you see what's wrong with that.
I wasn't proposing anything of the sort. All I was doing is saying Bear Barb isn't hideously OP. I agree that the protection spells shouldn't upscale to multiple targets, in point of fact.
My original question was asking whether the spell protection from energy could be upscaled to target additional people. Bare in mind that the spell only allow for protection from one element and requires concentration. Honestly there isn't much preventing a party planning on fighting a red dragon to grabbing some potions of fire resistance which would basically be better since it wouldn't require any concentration. I just don't see how upscaling this spell would be overpowered.
My original question was asking whether the spell protection from energy could be upscaled to target additional people. Bare in mind that the spell only allow for protection from one element and requires concentration. Honestly there isn't much preventing a party planning on fighting a red dragon to grabbing some potions of fire resistance which would basically be better since it wouldn't require any concentration. I just don't see how upscaling this spell would be overpowered.
There’s something substantial stopping a party from finding a bunch of potions of fire resistance- whether or not the DM wants to give them out. The specific reason magic items appear in the DMG rather than PHB is because it is DMs discretion what items are available for acquisition at any given point in the campaign, partly so that players can’t just grab the optimal loadout to fight any given BBEG if the DM doesn’t want them to go in with that kind of advantage.
Without upcasting for extra targets, at least that's burning a lot of extra slots...or limiting how many of the party are covered, leaving vulnerable underbellies on the party.
Note that burning extra slots for more targets is only an option when a spell doesn't require concentration. If the spell requires concentration burning another slot to cast it on another party member would end the spell on the first target.
So single caster could spread Protection from Poison to multiple targets by casting the spell once on each of them, but Protection from Energy can only affect one creature at a time, per caster.
However, there are some examples of spells that grant damage resistances that can be upcast to affect more targets.
Gaseous Form grants Resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage and can now be upcast for more targets. Granted the spell also removes your ability to attack, interact with other creatures and objects, and drastically reduces your movement speed so that's a substantial price to pay.
Intellect Fortress grants Resistance to psychic damage and further grants advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws. And it's even the same spell level as Protection from Energy. You don't get to choose the damage type but hell that advantage on saves is really the bigger boon here.
Hilariously though, there is a way to spread out damage resistance to the party now that doesn't require concentration and can be done with a single high level spell slot. Use a better spell. Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron. It's a 6th level spell but if you choose a Potion of Resistance you can grant a number of creatures equal to your Spellcasting Ability Modifier resistance to a damage type for up to 1 hour each, which doesn't even have to be at the same time.
Considering that spell exists now I don't think I'd be at all bothered allowing Protection from Energy to target an additional creature for each spell level above 3. It would still end up outclassed by Bubbling cauldron when upcast to 6th level.
I am looking at protection from energy, poison, good, and evil and none of these spells provide any upscaling options allowing you to cover multiple party members with the spell. Is there any rationale behind this? Do you believe it is too powerful to allow upscaling with higher level spell slots?
At first I thought it was because they were Touch spells, so it would be a bit weird to allow multiple targets, but Enhance Ability, Fly, Freedom of Movement etc all allow multiple targets on an upcast and are also Touch, so that's probably not it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One of the issues in 5e is that encounters really drag on and part of it is that it's quite hard to kill anyone. Giving people traits that make it even harder to kill just makes things worse - the ability to give it to many people is asking for trouble.
That's not anything I've heard that's official, but it makes sense to me. Even the current instances of Resistance are already problematic - I had a Bear Totem Barbarian in the party, and it removed pretty much all threat from the game. My encounters had to last a long time for the threat to really pile on because it just took that long to make the Barbarian to consider whether a fight is a danger or not. A spell that gives more people more ability to neuter the threat I can reasonably bring to the table? Shudders.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think it's because they're long-term concentration spells. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the spells I recall that let you upcast to target more people either aren't concentration or only last for a minute or so.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
There’s a few exceptions like Fly, that last for longer than a minute, but yeah that’s the trend.
The trick to Bear Barbs is to Incapacitate them to drop Rage. Obviously not something you can do in every encounter, but there’s a fairly large suite of tools for it.
Yet another reason why a good DM will ban spells, features, sub-classes, what-not, that makes the game actually not fun. PC's that are unkillable makes the game boring.
Oh yes, heaven forfend a DM ever need to take one minute to identify the big obvious shutoff button on a class feature.
If you could, it'd be easy for a mid-high level party to just not worry about elemental damage.
Since a number of prestige monsters (dragons), do elemental damage, they probably don't want to make it so cheap to neuter them.
That is exactly what a DM does by banning an OP subclass, spell, or feature.
I understand the desire to keep the pace of the game going but the spell does require concentration meaning there is no other concentration spell that caster can do henceforth during the encounter. , in the case of the barbarian, I would say there are many ways to deal with such a character that would make the encounter interesting. And just because a person is resistant to fire doesn’t mean they can be killed, a red dragon for example has many more tools in their arsenal beside breathing fire. Just a though.
I've played several barbarian characters and unless you're throwing weak monsters who aren't hitting that hard at the party, resistance hardly makes a character unkillable. Get two or three monsters that the barbarian can't drop swiftly and are capable of hitting several times per round and the damage adds up quickly.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, let me throw there or four enemies ganging up on them, and then listen to the complaints about me bullying them by ganging up on them every fight...because that's what I'm doing. I can kill any party I want to as DM, all I need to do is team up a bunch of CR20+ creatures like Tiamat, the Tarrasque etc and just go to town on them. I don't because it's not fun when the DM is obviously just trying to hurt you or effectively take away your earned feature. When you're Resistant to everything apart from Psychic...it either becomes obvious that I'm gunning for you, or you don't break a sweat.
Resistance is powerful and can become game distorting. And that's fine in small quantities and when you're making a sacrifice for it - a Barbarian, even a BearBarb, can be fine because they're sacrificing other class features for it. When you're just upcasting a spell to grant the entire party Resistance? That's when it starts getting really game distorting. To make an encounter a threat, a DM will either have to keep targeting the caster to break Concentration (because Casters love being the centre of attention and losing their spells after only a turn or so), or just blatantly double everything and make it either obvious that they're just nullifying the spell but with extra steps...or make it a must-have spell just to survive.
Without upcasting for extra targets, at least that's burning a lot of extra slots...or limiting how many of the party are covered, leaving vulnerable underbellies on the party.
5e has the issue that PCs (and monsters) are HP bags, so sooner or later, you have to get rid of all that HP. Fun abilities on both sides make it more interesting...but ultimately you still have to do it, which slows combat down a lot. Resistance just doubles how long that takes. You don't want to make it routine for characters to have Resistance.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The Barbarian is a tank class; by definition you want to be drawing aggro when you play it. Getting several creatures focusing on you doesn't mean you're being unfairly singled out, it means the class is working as designed.
There's a lot to comment on that, but let's stay on topic... you're proposing to give the core feature of the Barbarian, and what you're claiming is the point of the class, to everyone in the party at the cost of a single spell slot.
I hope you see what's wrong with that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well at least now Bear Barbarian only has the elemental resistances, no force, necrotic, psychic, or radiant. And necrotic is fairly common
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I wasn't proposing anything of the sort. All I was doing is saying Bear Barb isn't hideously OP. I agree that the protection spells shouldn't upscale to multiple targets, in point of fact.
My original question was asking whether the spell protection from energy could be upscaled to target additional people. Bare in mind that the spell only allow for protection from one element and requires concentration. Honestly there isn't much preventing a party planning on fighting a red dragon to grabbing some potions of fire resistance which would basically be better since it wouldn't require any concentration. I just don't see how upscaling this spell would be overpowered.
There’s something substantial stopping a party from finding a bunch of potions of fire resistance- whether or not the DM wants to give them out. The specific reason magic items appear in the DMG rather than PHB is because it is DMs discretion what items are available for acquisition at any given point in the campaign, partly so that players can’t just grab the optimal loadout to fight any given BBEG if the DM doesn’t want them to go in with that kind of advantage.
Note that burning extra slots for more targets is only an option when a spell doesn't require concentration. If the spell requires concentration burning another slot to cast it on another party member would end the spell on the first target.
So single caster could spread Protection from Poison to multiple targets by casting the spell once on each of them, but Protection from Energy can only affect one creature at a time, per caster.
However, there are some examples of spells that grant damage resistances that can be upcast to affect more targets.
Gaseous Form grants Resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage and can now be upcast for more targets. Granted the spell also removes your ability to attack, interact with other creatures and objects, and drastically reduces your movement speed so that's a substantial price to pay.
Intellect Fortress grants Resistance to psychic damage and further grants advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws. And it's even the same spell level as Protection from Energy. You don't get to choose the damage type but hell that advantage on saves is really the bigger boon here.
Hilariously though, there is a way to spread out damage resistance to the party now that doesn't require concentration and can be done with a single high level spell slot. Use a better spell. Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron. It's a 6th level spell but if you choose a Potion of Resistance you can grant a number of creatures equal to your Spellcasting Ability Modifier resistance to a damage type for up to 1 hour each, which doesn't even have to be at the same time.
Considering that spell exists now I don't think I'd be at all bothered allowing Protection from Energy to target an additional creature for each spell level above 3. It would still end up outclassed by Bubbling cauldron when upcast to 6th level.