Hello!

I'm a DM seeking advice and feedback about a player feeling bad for something they accused me of railroading. I just want to hear from other players and DMs so I could do better next time if I did make a mistake.

THE ENCOUNTER MECHANICS

I DM a Wildemount PbP campaign in Discord.
It is important to know that I have written the scenario/encounter long before my players reached that point. I've the written mechanics for the traps, made the map, wrote the story, crafted the puzzles, chose the treasures, and thought of the possible scenarios they would encounter.

One possible scenario was that they would go to the armory with four disguised Animated Armor and a powerful trap that would cast a modified Sleep spell that could only be broken by a Lesser Restoration. The animated armor and the trap would only be triggered if they opened the chest. And I wrote that it would be a losing scenario once that was done.

Take note that I have set up warning clues for them to avoid the disastrous scenario. One was a quote to warn them about greed on the walls of the tunnel leading to the room. Investigation DC12. Another was inspecting the chest with Detect Magic would reveal the Magic Orb inside pulsating with Enchantment Magic. And obviously a Golden Chest in the middle of the room on a pedestal is a cliche for a trap.

HOW IT WENT DOWN

Now, the team of four finally got to the said scenario. It was them finding a hatch near Felderwin covered with Kryn Dynasty runes and symbolism. They managed to break the puzzle and opened the hatch. Going down, they found four doors in the circular room they arrived at. They also managed to break the code of all four rooms.

The north door's code was ARMORY. The west was ROSOHNA. The south was DODECAHEDRON. And the east was KRYN.

Obviously, knowing the lore of Wildemount, the players have an idea that this was a Kryn spy bunker.

Three of the team rushed towards the door that said ARMORY. After going through the tunnel they found another circular room with a huge array of weapons and armors, and on the center was the Golden Chest on top of a pedestal. It was the trap.

Two characters, who we will call A and B checked out the weapons inside the room. Another character, who we will call C, rushed to investigate the Golden Chest. I made him roll for Investigation and he got a low number. I described the opulence of the chest.

Character A used his magic heirloom that could detect magical items and saw a weapon and the trap orb. Take note that this magical heirloom could only reveal the magical item close to them but not exactly where.

Character B investigated the weapons and armors, too, and also got a low score when they rolled, so I just made a basic description of the items they saw.

Now character D, knew that something was fishy about a Golden Chest on a pedestal and asked me if he could shoot it to check if it was a Mimic. I said yes and blessed him with an Inspiration for being an awesome player and checking for trap.

Before character D shot the chest, he announced that everyone should back off. I let them. I even asked the characters who were already in the room what they would like to do, including asking them if they want to go out.

Character C did and rushed to the back of Character D. Character A and B stayed inside the room and ducked. Character D then did shot the Gold Chest and it hit but nothing happened since that wasn't the trigger.

I asked all of them again what they wanted to do next. Character A looked for the magical weapon he saw. Character B took a Greataxe. Character D finally went in and started to ritual cast Detect Magic. And Character C went straight to the chest and did what I was afraid they would do... he opened the chest.

BOOM. The Sleep spell exploded. Character C and D fell unconscious since they have the lowest HP. The room went dark and the door closed. Four animated armor came to life. Character A and B prepared to fight.

Character C and D asked if they could roll for initiative. I told them straightforwardly that they could not since there was no way they would wake up.

The orb that cast the Sleep spell is a magical item that would alert the owner when the Sleep spell they stored inside the orb had been cast. I wrote that within three rounds the Kryn Spy that managed the bunker would appear and finish the fight with another Sleep spell. I hinted at this at the end of round one and round two.

So, Character A and B were overwhelmed. Character A fell unconscious at the end of the second round. And Character B saw the shadowy figure and cast the sleep spell on them. All of them were now unconscious.

Character B sent me a private message complaining that they felt bad for being railroaded which I was surprised by since I always let them do their thing. I even constantly remind them that they are free to ask for a Skill Check. She insisted that I was railroading the team by making the Sleep Spell hard to break. I told them that it was a part of the trap. A harsh consequence for the action they freely took. But not as harsh as killing them. It was a Kryn Spy Bunker. It was bound to be dangerous.

They kept insisting that I railroaded them and that it was a bad experience because I made the Sleep spell harder to break. I kept reminding them that I made all the effort to make the team avoid the trap. That they were the ones who chose that room and opened that chest. I told them that the trap could've been an explosive and killed some of them, but it was just a modified Sleep spell. I asked if maybe they weren't just happy that they got put into a bad situation by their decisions which would be a normal reaction. But they insisted that it was a bad DM call to modify the spell because it railroaded them.

I told them that railroading was if I pressed them into doing something by rushing or coercing them. I did not. It was a PbP. They were allowed to take the time to think and write their next post.


THE QUESTION

Did I mess up as a DM? Did what I did railroading my players? What could I have done better?

Hm, sounds to me like a fair application of consequences. 

Yes an unbreakable sleep spell trap is harsh, but you did not just kill them. So, I guess the campaign goes on with them being taken prisoner?

No railroading in my opinion. They could have kept the chest shut, and nothing would have happened.

They were probably upset, that there is no save for them involved. Nothing to worry about I think.

Thank you for reading! And I appreciate your take on it. They are held prisoner by the spies and it would lead to another plot in the story.
It really did bother me that I was accused of railroading because that was one thing I was trying hard not to do. Again, thank you!

I don't think this is railroading. This is just a good example of "your actions have consequences."

No, this is not railroading.

Railroading would be that the Kryn Spy realizes they are there and comes to fight them no matter what they do in the room. If they had left the chest alone, what would have happened? Nothing. If they had cast dispel magic, what would have happened? Probably, something very different. They choose to open the chest, and the chest had a very powerful and nasty trap on it.

Now, if they want to argue that a Sleep spell that powerful is maybe unfair, OK, perhaps that is a discussion to have. But what you described is not railroading. You let them try whatever they wanted. The fact that the trap was set to go off when a chest was opened, and the trap was still active, is standard fare for all traps. It is the definition of a trap, pretty much: something nasty that happens when you take a particular action, like opening a chest.

To me the test of whether you are railroading is as follows. If your notes say, "If the players do A, this happens, if they do B, this happens," that is not railroading. If your notes say, "No matter what the players do, this happens..." that is railroading.

Now, if they want to argue that a Sleep spell that powerful is maybe unfair, OK, perhaps that is a discussion to have.

That, I think, was what the player was truly upset about. And I get it. I know it was harsh. But it was intended to be harsh from the start because it was made to be a very costly consequence. It wasn't even a trap that could kill. They were upset that the other two players couldn't wake up and help with the fight which was the point of the punishment.

But thank you, friend. Your response is illuminating. I'll keep that last part in mind.

I guess one question I have is, why did the trap need to be "a powerful trap that would cast a modified Sleep spell that could only be broken by a Lesser Restoration"? Was there some good in-world reason for this? (I've watched CR season 2 about halfway through, but I only know the lore presented on the show -- I have not read the Wildemount book). Do the Kryn routinely cast amped-up Sleep spells? If not, then I am not clear on why this would be "special" Sleep.

It seems to me that in context, if the casting of sleep summons the area's guardian and if the chest wakes up suits of armor, there would be no reason to make the sleep any more powerful than a normal Sleep spell. The spell subjects a certain number of HD worth of creatures to the unconscious condition, and waking them up requires taking damage or else burning an action. Given that half the party went down to this spell, and 2 of them are now fighting 4 suits of armor, just the wasting of an action to wake these 2 up would be a huge penalty to the party. If both of them managed to do it on round 1, then you have the PCs, all 4 of them, doing zilch for one round, and the 4 suits of armor get to attack. This starts the party on a negative footing, which ought to make the battle a challenge.  And that assumes the 2 conscious guys have the ability to wake their buddies up on round 1. If the armors go first and position themselves properly, doing this could trigger attacks of opportunity.

So, although this is not railroading, as a DM, I question the need to make this Sleep specially powerful, and to have it work differently from the rules for Sleep as described in the PHB. In the name of world consistency, if there is a spell that will achieve an effect I want, I always strictly follow the text of the spell, so that the world I'm building makes sense. If the Sleep spell works in a certain way, then I would rule that it always works that way. If you want them to fail a save and not be able to be woken up except by restoration, subject them to another condition, such as Paralyzed. A character cannot simply be awakened from this state and the Lesser Restoration spell is required to remove the condition. Paralysis would exactly mimic the terms you attempted to apply (taking the character out of the battle until the proper spell is cast, with no ability to just "wake them up" by shaking), but it follows the rules of the game, rather than being a special case of a much less powerful spell with which all your players are familiar.

Your player used the word "railroading," which is incorrect here. But what she probably means is that you didn't play fair with them -- you "cheated" with how the Sleep spell works. Now, a DM can kind of do anything he or she wants. But IMO, it's best not to work outside the rules-as-written unless you have to. Changing monster abilities, yes, I do that all the time. Players aren't supposed to read and know about those anyway, and you can do whatever you want in your world. Changing spells for everyone in the game, and telling the players about it, and having them use that version too, yes. If you want to make it so that the Sleep spell always works like this in your world, and if the players know that (and can even, if they have it prepared, cast this version of the spell themselves), fine. But instead, what you did was, you made up your own custom version of the Unconscious condition, which does not really follow any rules, and you applied it only in this specific case just to "make the trap harder." And this can feel, as a player, like you are not being fair with them. 

After all, assume for a moment that they had some divination ability that told them exactly what would happen when they opened the trap -- it'll cast Sleep on nearby characters. Pretend that knowing this they said, "OK, one person will stay out of the room to wake us up and we'll trigger the trap." Imagine there was no armor, no Kryn scout. The conscious guy (who can't cast Lesser Resto) walks back in to wake them up and you say as a DM, "Well, you can't wake them up from this Sleep. It's special." Fair? IMO -- no. Because it takes a known condition about which the players think they know the rules (because they've read the rules!) and breaks the rules "just cuz." That's not how I like to design things.

Again, a condition exists to do exactly what you want: Paralyzed. So if I'm designing this trap, I'm going to make it a high DC and let them save against it, and if they succeed, oh well, but if they fail, then they are out of the battle. And the "alarm" can still go off either way.

Try it out. Ask your players if the chest had emitted a "paralysis gas," DC 20, CON save or paralyzed, and if she would have thought that was railroading. Bet she says no. Because she doesn't really mean "railroading" here -- she means "unfair."

That's what I told them, dude.

"Your decisions matter, I always gave you options until you chose the wrong one and was left without, as a consequence."

They were a Dwarf, a Firbolg, a Halfling, and a Gnome. The Gnome and Halfling fell asleep from the spell.

This is not railroading, but the fact that your players found it unfair means that it might not be appropriate for your table. Perhaps your players aren't so good at picking up warning signs. Maybe they dont want such strong consequences for their actions.

I would privately ask the other players (A,C,D) if they felt it was unfair. If its just player B, then do worry about it too much. If all the players dont like it, then put it in the chest of ideas for other groups and dont do whatever they didn't like about it with this group again.

I totally get what you're saying. They are valid points. Thank you! I bet, too, that that's how they truly felt.

Admittedly, it was a custom magic item I made that changed the rules of Sleep so the Waking-Up mechanics is hard. I designed it like that because I wanted them to be unconscious but not bleed out and I'm planning on handing them the said Sleep Orb for a task they have to accomplish to get their magic heirlooms back.

Honestly, I didn't think of a Paralyzing Trap. That would've been better. Thank you for that idea! I appreciate it.

I'm reminded of a stream where the players willingly fell into an obvious trap. All the warning signs were there - as blatant as Adm. Ackbar standing before them with his famous impression of Capt. Obvious, but it almost seemed like the players actually wanted the trap to spring on them. ...but given how obvious it was, I don't blame them for wanting to see where it was going to go.

So, there's that tactic to hook them into letting it happen by making it interesting enough to see where it'll go.

Of course, you need to know your players very well for that.

My response if they found it unfair would be 'Fine. You find a completely unguarded large pile of loot. Nothing dangerous ever happens to your characters again. And then would have a discussion with them over there needing to be some risk or else the campaign becomes pointless.

Except what the players found "unfair" wasn't the challenge. Their complaint was that he up-converted Sleep to have it impose an awaken criterion ("Lesser Restoration") that isn't found in the book, and therefore it seemed, to them, like he made the trap arbitrarily harder. It's not like this was a mystery condition. Sleep is a known spell. It imposes a known condition (Unconscious) on characters for which there is a known counter (shake them awake). So when the known counter to the known condition imposed by the known spell did not work as they expected -- with no reason in particular given by the DM other than "that's just the way it is," it seems like the DM is just imposing a fiat ruling to artificially make the trap harder than it should be if he were following the rules as written.

Again, as I said above, to make it harder as he wanted to, there was a RAW way of doing it -- a gas shoots out that imposes the paralyzed condition on anyone who has not made a successful saving throw. I repeat, if he had done this, I don't think the player who complained, would have had an issue. Because these are known effects in the book and the DM is merely applying them.

If we look at the complaint that was leveled, the complaint was actually "railroading." Why this and not "unfair?" Because the player means, "You decided we were going to be put to sleep and not able to wake up, and you just forced that to happen, even though the rules don't say that's what should happen."

Also go back to the OP, where it is stated, "And I wrote that it would be a losing scenario once that was done." The "that was done" part here means, once the chest is opened. So in a sense, the DM decided to up-convert Sleep because he had decided ahead of time, not "here are some fixed consequences that will occur if the chest is open without disarming the trap," but rather, "If they do this, I want them to lose." And then the trap was scaled to make that happen. It is perfectly fine to make things hard. And it is perfectly fine to have your own custom versions of things in the book (again, I do it all the time). But one has to be careful not to "rig the game," as it were. Give them a saving throw, and apply the proper effect... and if you do the players have no right to complain.

As BioWizard said in many, many more words:

Why bother to make this scenario so specifically detailed if the intent was for the group to "take a hint and avoid it"? If you make a trap, plan on it being used. As far as how to deal with the player's protestations? I believe you did, you let them attempt what they wanted, you provided ample warning AND you let the dice decide where the chips fly.  

I don't think it is railroading.

I do worry about PbP groups (or any other online group) because the DM has to be prepared with descriptions and maps to support where the players "choose" to go.  Face-to-Face you can take a battle map and draw up just about anything based on your notes, but when you have to have an encounter map ready digitally, that is another matter.

I understand their objection that sleep isn't run this way normally.  But as BioWiz says paralyze would create the effect the DM wanted, so I would just respond to the players, well then consider it a paralysis spell.  The trap knocks you out until the assassin arrives either way; that's how this trap works.

And now we descend to the level of encounter design.  Is this a tougher trap than this table is willing to contend with? 

I have been in that situation and the only reason it wasn't a TPK is because the DM 'called off the attack' at some point so we would survive.  He later told me what he thinks we should have thought of to mitigate the enemies advantage; a light spell, which the enemy would have been blinded by.  The problem is that five of our characters have dark vision so why would they pick a light spell at low levels where every spell slot is important?  And none of the players had light on their spell list, so he gave us an encounter with the foreknowledge we didn't have the one key ingredient to deal with it.  It is also bad encounter design to have only one way of solving the puzzle, even if it is within the capabilities of the party.

But encounter design can be a tricky business and I'm sure I'd make plenty of mistakes myself as a relatively inexperienced DM.  I'm still getting acquainted with the rules of 5e.  Good luck.  Not railroading.

I'm in agreement with the concensus this is not railroading.You didn't make them go to that room, or open the chest. You gave them all the signs that the chest had something magical, with enchantment effect.

I am in disagreement with BioWizard. If you want a sleep spell that needed lesser resto then so be it. Nothing stops you making it paralysis instead (using Sleep would just be flavouring which is perfectly fine - actually encouraged!), or using a Curse that would have required Greater Resto. BioWizard seems to have forgotten that sleep which cannot be woken up from are, indeed, part of the game mechanics (there are monster effects, it can be a dm granted option of Bestow Curse, etc). Given the alternative options, you were very lenient.

They failed to take precautions. They acted recklessly. They got a consequence.

There's absolutely nothing about what you've described that I would have a problem with. Seemed perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

What I would have found questionable: not allowing Dispel Magic to also work on the targets to remove the sleep effect (although requiring to still take an action afterward to wake them would be reasonable).

What I would have been unhappy with: TPK. If this was "well everybody dies" I'd be a bit peeved. Now, if this was a case of waking up as prisoners and now having to find a way to get back equipment and find a way to escape? That would be very interesting!

I don't think this was railroading exactly, but it was a bad trap. 

The animated armor and the trap would only be triggered if they opened the chest. And I wrote that it would be a losing scenario once that was done.

Here's the thing: once the trap was triggered, they lost. This is what you intended and what happened, but it's not what you communicated to the players. This is an issue of differing expectations.

If I were a player in this scenario, I would think the following:

1. Not everyone fell asleep. We have able, undamaged characters (we have not lost yet)
2. Sleep is a condition we are familiar with and we know how to fix it (we have not lost yet)
3. Enemies have animated and we rolled initiative. If we are in combat that means we have a chance to beat them and win (we have not lost yet)

The design of this trap gave the impression that it was surmountable even after being triggered when you had decided beforehand that it was not. That is why the players were upset and why they interpreted it as railroading.

Next time you make a trap that is an automatic fail condition, just make that clear when the trap springs. In this case you could have put them all to sleep immediately or just narrated the statues taking out the remaining players. Don't let them think they have a chance to succeed if they don't - that's extremely frustrating as a player and it leaves you feeling like you were cheated or you did something wrong (not the guy who opened the chest - he did do something wrong - I mean the others who were left standing).

Not railroading. Railroading would be to give them one hallway, one room, one door, just trap, everybody falls asleep no save.

I agree with others that it should have been a standard sleep with just an action from the rest of the party to wake them up. I did something similar and now all of players carry around "wake up needles" that do 1 point of damage.

Its not railroading but I don't like the design at all.  Opening a chest is a pretty normal thing my old players are going to do, they will take precautions but they will open it.  To just wipe them out with a sweep of your hand and say they have no chance to win against said chest, is bad design.   The only time I did something so lowly to my adventurers was the beginning of the tomb of horrors to get the module rolling.

Quote from GregCa >>

Its not railroading but I don't like the design at all.  Opening a chest is a pretty normal thing my old players are going to do, they will take precautions but they will open it.  To just wipe them out with a sweep of your hand and say they have no chance to win against said chest, is bad design.   The only time I did something so lowly to my adventurers was the beginning of the tomb of horrors to get the module rolling.

 I don't think this is bad design. If this was in the middle of a random dungeon, then yes, killing all the players for opening the chest would be annoying. But they had already realized that it was a spy bunker, and why would a spy bunker have a random chest in the middle of the room. The players should have ascertained it was a trap, and they aren't being killed anyway. Just captured.