We're playing a new game starting Thursday, and our party consists of a Gnome Rogue, Elf or Human Ranger (cannot remember race), Kenku Warlock, Human Cleric, and my Minotaur Barbarian. We rolled stats and I ended up with 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8
With racial bonuses, I ended up with Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 13 (with the idea of an honorable warrior who might, eventually, take on the role of a Paladin as well - yes, I know, not a super optimized course but it kinda fit my character idea plus I love hearing the smite mechanic in podcasts and wanted to give it a try).
The big thing is, I was looking at some feats as opposed to stat boosts, and I really like a few in particular:
Tavern Brawler Tough (basically leaning in full towards HP) Sentinel Savage Attacker Magic Initiate (because sometimes I like going very odd routes) Fell Handed (currently using a greatsword but this would make a greataxe more fun) Charger (if I lean in full towards dash+gore as often as possible) Great Weapon Master (though -5 to hit might be rough as I will only get a +6 to hit at the when I can take the feat)
I'm practically brand new to 5e (played tons of Pathfinder and older versions of D&D), and I've got time (we're starting at first thank goodness). I will obviously be getting armor (save up for half-plate) and pondering getting a battle axe and shield to use when I'm not raging. Any thoughts? Has anyone made a Barbaladin work?
The charger feat is particularly bad on minotaurs, because the feat and the race generate similar bonus actions that don't buff each other. Definitely don't take it.
Barbarian Paladin is a multiclass that is definitely workable. Smites + Reckless Attack for advantage is dangerous. Take 6 levels in Barbarian to get extra attack and 4 rages a day. Then take two levels of paladin for smite. Finish off with sorcerer or bard depending on what you fancy so that you progress your spell slots faster for smiting purposes.
What do you want your armor situation to be? Medium armor or unarmored? Your stats aren't perfect for AC purposes. You can sacrifice con to get the most out of medium armor with a 14 dex but I'm not sure it's worth it.
Great Weapon Master is the best option out of all the feats listed mechanically because reckless attack enables it so well. Just grab a big ol weapon and smack people.
Polearm Master is an excellent option as well if halberds and glaives and like are weapons you like.
More and more I'm finding that the feats that don't directly add to combat prowess are more interesting/fun/useful than those that seem to add power to your character's attacks.
I currently have two level 8 characters in my campaign using power-attack feats: Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. The Barbarian with Great Weapon Master is attacking with +4, advantage, and hitting for 2d6+18 damage a hit (greatsword, strength, magic weapon, rage, averages 25) and the Bloodhunter is attacking with +6 for 1d10+1d6+1d6+15 (heavy crossbow, hex, crimson rite, magic weapon) giving an average of 28 damage a hit. With two attacks each, they are regularly dealing 100 damage in a single round between them.
This sounds great. And yet, the main result of this is that as DM I've increased the hit points of all the key monsters by at least 100, and in the case of something like an adult dragon I've had to up its hit points from 215 to 415. This is necessary not to mess with the players, but to ensure that they actually enjoy the combats. There's nothing much fun about building up to fight an adult green dragon for a while only to find that it's dead in two turns of combat and it only got off one breath and some legendary actions.
Feats like Alert, Keen Mind, Linguist etc. are far more flavourful and enjoyable to play with, and enhance roleplaying much more. Take a look at Fey Touched, or feats that will give you a Familiar or things along those lines as well as the ones that seem to buff you up.
Mobile, Sentinel, Alert, and don't forget Lucky (best feat in the game).
Barbarian Paladin is a multiclass that is definitely workable. Smites + Reckless Attack for advantage is dangerous. Take 6 levels in Barbarian to get extra attack and 4 rages a day. Then take two levels of paladin for smite. Finish off with sorcerer or bard depending on what you fancy so that you progress your spell slots faster for smiting purposes.
What do you want your armor situation to be? Medium armor or unarmored? Your stats aren't perfect for AC purposes. You can sacrifice con to get the most out of medium armor with a 14 dex but I'm not sure it's worth it.
Great Weapon Master is the best option out of all the feats listed mechanically because reckless attack enables it so well. Just grab a big ol weapon and smack people.
Polearm Master is an excellent option as well if halberds and glaives and like are weapons you like.
Armor situation... well, it's a crapshoot because of my poor Dex (but all my "bonus" stats are tied up in Str, Con and Cha for multiclassing). Medium armor at least lets me rage, and half-plate plus a shield for non-raging moments (less likely at higher level) would mean an 18 AC. Not AMAZING, but probably sufficient. I'd go heavy armor, but there's nothing that lets me rage in heavy armor so that's out.
The charger feat is particularly bad on minotaurs, because the feat and the race generate similar bonus actions that don't buff each other. Definitely don't take it.
I mostly was looking at the +5, but you're right that a lot of the additional benefits would be wasted.
More and more I'm finding that the feats that don't directly add to combat prowess are more interesting/fun/useful than those that seem to add power to your character's attacks.
I currently have two level 8 characters in my campaign using power-attack feats: Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. The Barbarian with Great Weapon Master is attacking with +4, advantage, and hitting for 2d6+18 damage a hit (greatsword, strength, magic weapon, rage, averages 25) and the Bloodhunter is attacking with +6 for 1d10+1d6+1d6+15 (heavy crossbow, hex, crimson rite, magic weapon) giving an average of 28 damage a hit. With two attacks each, they are regularly dealing 100 damage in a single round between them.
This sounds great. And yet, the main result of this is that as DM I've increased the hit points of all the key monsters by at least 100, and in the case of something like an adult dragon I've had to up its hit points from 215 to 415. This is necessary not to mess with the players, but to ensure that they actually enjoy the combats. There's nothing much fun about building up to fight an adult green dragon for a while only to find that it's dead in two turns of combat and it only got off one breath and some legendary actions.
Feats like Alert, Keen Mind, Linguist etc. are far more flavourful and enjoyable to play with, and enhance roleplaying much more. Take a look at Fey Touched, or feats that will give you a Familiar or things along those lines as well as the ones that seem to buff you up.
Mobile, Sentinel, Alert, and don't forget Lucky (best feat in the game).
Definitely looking hard at Sentinel. Try and focus on keeping people from running past me.
That said, the idea of Barbarian 6 / Paladin 2 and then going something like Bard sounds like it could be fun. RP concept would be interesting to figure that one out :)
Feats like Alert, Keen Mind, Linguist etc. are far more flavourful and enjoyable to play with, and enhance roleplaying much more.
Eh.
Linguist just means the DM puts the exposition in 4 languages instead of 2, and the ciphers it grants - as well as pretty much all of Keen Mind - are something most DMs would let anyone do with an INT check. You are just better at some things, and typically the DM is going to have to go out of their way one way or another to highlight them or compensate for them because the game is designed to run without feats - the damage ones are not special in that regard. I don't see how those listed "enhance roleplaying much more" than the hooks provided by the brutal recklessness of GWM or the quick reflexes of Sentinel.
Not to say these feats aren't fun or that they are worse picks, but asserting that non-combat feats provide more roleplaying opportunity is perpetuating this idea that roleplaying and combat are diametrically opposed. They're not, and I feel the need to call out this thinking whenever I see it. Someone who roleplays the heck out of Alert could also roleplay the heck out of Sharpshooter. Take Linguist if it fits your character or develops them in a way that fits your story. Take GWM for the same reasons.
When I have a list of options like OP included, I'll sit back and think about the character and how I want them to grow (also factoring in what I like to play or explore as a player). Any of those choices would be good, so you can't go wrong. If you pick the one that best fits the concept/story you want to explore or the one that feels most compelling to you, I would bet that you'll have more fun with that choice.
Paladins are a lot more offensive than they are defensive/support, and what your party needs is “tank” not “striker.” That 13 in Dex instead of Cha would make you much better at your party role, and would fit an easy Skill Expert or Slasher for 14 Dex in Half Plate. That’s just straight up more effective than Paladin.
If you want interesting features, find them in feats or Fighter levels. Chef (+1 Con) would be good for you and fun (barbs don’t have many bonus actions, THP makes you better at your job), with another +1 con from something else down the road. Battlemaster can give more reliable bonus damage than smite would, and set up fun control like fear, pushes, disarms, etc.
Dont go down the PAM and GWM trees yet or at all, I’d build your feats for Strength, Con, a lil Dex… you don’t really even have room for sentinel, unless you MC 6+ fighter levels for feat acceleration. Barbarians need to take ASI or a half-stat feat pretty much every time, since they’re 3-stat MAD.
Paladins are a lot more offensive than they are defensive/support, and what your party needs is “tank” not “striker.” That 13 in Dex instead of Cha would make you much better at your party role, and would fit an easy Skill Expert or Slasher for 14 Dex in Half Plate. That’s just straight up more effective than Paladin.
If you want interesting features, find them in feats or Fighter levels. Chef (+1 Con) would be good for you and fun (barbs don’t have many bonus actions, THP makes you better at your job), with another +1 con from something else down the road. Battlemaster can give more reliable bonus damage than smite would, and set up fun control like fear, pushes, disarms, etc.
Dont go down the PAM and GWM trees yet or at all, I’d build your feats for Strength, Con, a lil Dex… you don’t really even have room for sentinel, unless you MC 6+ fighter levels for feat acceleration. Barbarians need to take ASI or a half-stat feat pretty much every time, since they’re 3-stat MAD.
I mean, it sounds like the party needs a fighter, and then maybe multiclass for a little Barbarian. I see what you're getting at; I just didn't know if HP+Rage was effective as "higher AC".
Definitely worried I didn't pick the best class for this party build.
Some might argue that low AC and HP+Rage(+THP) makes you a better Tank than high AC would, because the DM will be tempted to actually attack you and use up that HP resource, rather than avoiding you and leaving it unutilized. A high AC fighter can rarely lock down more than a single enemy combatant (even with Sentinel, they've only got one Reaction to burn on Opportunity Attacks), and in a party where you're the only melee combatant (ranger and warlock are ranged, cleric is probably ranged, and rogue is probably either ranged or hit-and-run?), being a target that the DM wants to attack with multiple enemies, who can survive those attacks, is a very good approach.
You don't need 20+ AC from Heavy Armor etc., but 15 is far too low to be realistic. 17-19 is pretty standard for mundane AC for a non-turtle frontline character by level 5+. You can barely reach that with 10 Dex (Half Plate and Shield, no Dex), or you can comfortably inhabit it with 13 or 14.
I think that if "tank" is what your party needs (even if the Cleric is also built as an off-tank), there's a solid case for starting as a Barbarian at level 1 (12 starting HP and Rage is a huge HP boost in low tier play), and taking it at level 2 (Reckless Attack is an effective taunt), and level 3 (3 rages per day is much better than 2, and subclass features), and 4 (you want a feat or an ASI as soon as possible), and 5 (Extra Attack right on curve!).
As a new player in a new group, it may not even be very helpful to think beyond that very far, that might be your entire campaign! But if play does look like it'll continue on to about level 11, you've got a real fork in your road.... switching to 6 levels of Fighter would make you more offensive, between Action Surge , subclass features like Battlemaster giving you bonus damage and interesting maneuvers, faster feats raising your strength or unlocking feats like Great Weapon Master faster, etc... it's very hard to picture a character that does more damage without 2-6 levels of Fighter than it is to imagine how MCing into Fighter helps. But the Ranger, Rogue, and Warlock are the ones that should be worrying about damage, you as a Tank have the luxury to focus on your own HP and utility to a greater extent, so I think it's fine to just leave Fighter on the table and play a pure Barbarian, or defer making that Fighter splash until you can't live without it.
So... no, I think you've picked the right character. But that 13 should be in Dexterity, and you should leave thoughts of a Barbadin for theorycrafting for the time being and focus on playing a solid Minotaur Barbarian. Your party already has two spellcasters, your inability to MC into anything other than Fighter or Rogue in the future is fine.
Yeah, I think I'm going to rework my stats to end up the following: Rolls: Str 13 (Modified to 15) Dex 14 Con 15 (Modified to 16) Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 11
Charisma 11 makes it easier to bump to 13 and take levels in Paladin if I still end up wanting to do that later on, without pigeonholing myself into that by placing my 13 in there to start. This gives me 15 unarmored, 17 when I've got the shield out, then 16/18 with Scale Mail or Breastplate, and 17/19 with Half-Plate. Then as some have pointed out, Fighter MC still remains a strong possibility.
You’re going to get side eyed for being a Barbarian with mediocre strength… it’ll come up to 16 at 4 with a +1 Str feat like Skill Expert or Slasher, but if you swapped out around with constitution that could be 18. The lower Str isn’t a bad idea though, because from level 2 onwards, Reckless attack granting advantage in attacks can make you hit more reliably (and thus do more damage) in a way that patches that shortcoming.
A Str feat at 4, and ASI +2 Str at 8, and ASI +2 Str at 12 is in your future with this start. If you swapped Con and Str, then you could fit a different feat (like Tough) in at 8 or 12. Either way is fine.
You’re going to get side eyed for being a Barbarian with mediocre strength… it’ll come up to 16 at 4 with a +1 Str feat like Skill Expert or Slasher, but if you swapped out around with constitution that could be 18. The lower Str isn’t a bad idea though, because from level 2 onwards, Reckless attack granting advantage in attacks can make you hit more reliably (and thus do more damage) in a way that patches that shortcoming.
A Str feat at 4, and ASI +2 Str at 8, and ASI +2 Str at 12 is in your future with this start. If you swapped Con and Str, then you could fit a different feat (like Tough) in at 8 or 12. Either way is fine.
The survivability vs damage debate, basically. Do I bank on my team doing the damage and focus on survivability, or vice-versa?
True, I could drop the 15 into str, get a 17, the 14 into con for a 15 and the 13 into dex. That would also give more room for either split ASIs or feats with +1 bonuses, that would probably be more fun. Like getting Slasher at 4, Cook at 8, Athletic at 12 possibly. (Though I honestly don't know if I'll bank on getting past 10th, we really have no idea what the end of the campaign, if any, will look like - we tend to focus on open-ended campaigns, so it's not like we have a specific end narrative we're aiming for)
So... no, I think you've picked the right character. But that 13 should be in Dexterity, and you should leave thoughts of a Barbadin for theorycrafting for the time being and focus on playing a solid Minotaur Barbarian. Your party already has two spellcasters, your inability to MC into anything other than Fighter or Rogue in the future is fine.
I completely agree with Chicken Champ. Especially with you not knowing how far this campaign will go simply building for a great barbarian experience seems like the best approach. Your rolls just don't support the MC well, and with your future iffy, why bother stretching your character in ways that may never come to fruition? As such, I would definitely put the 15, 14, 13 in your physicals with your +2/+1 bringing strength up to 17 and con up to 14. I don't think +1 hp makes you that much tankier as to outshine being able to pick up a sweet half-feat to round up your strength to 18. Skill Expert is my favorite option for sure.
I went with an Orc Zealot Barbarian and I had a lot of fun in our LMoP campaign with him. Asutar had the stat line of 16,13,16,8,12,10 from Standard Array and played very well. I ended up with Great Weapon Master at 4. I was using a greataxe most of the time after 3rd level, but I used either dual wield hand axes or a hand axe and shield until then. I picked up Hew at some point after 4th and would switch between it (usually 2 handed, unless I was switching weapons in combat and didn't want to just drop my greataxe) and my greataxe depending on whether I wanted to use the power attack from GWM or whether I wanted the greater accuracy from the magic weapon. The bonus action generated from GWM does work with non-heavy weapons but the power attack does not.
After 3rd, I was not concerned about my HP and I never went down. I was the party's lone melee character 90% of the time (the rogue would switch hit on occasion) and the grave cleric loved to cast Aid. I would regularly be a lead damager along with the rogue while the warlock would get in some Shatter action for some AoE. It worked out great. Combat won't be particularly diverse, though the charge from a Minotaur could help change it up a touch more than what I had. Going with the Paladin aspect wouldn't likely change much other than adding smites and the ability to heal yourself. Going straight barbarian would get you into the things that you'll want to do faster and those first 5 levels are key for the full flavor of what a barbarian wants to do. GWM is fine and reckless attacks do help enable it, meaning that you'll be able to deal with the lower attack than anyone that takes their attack stat at 4. However, there were times that I wanted the higher attack bonus from the magic weapon and it didn't happen to be my greataxe. Keep that in mind. A +2 strength at 4 may be boring, but it is effective and being able to hit things will make the experience fun.
The options that you have chosen are fine. You'll have 3 levels worth of play time to get a feel for what you'll need at 4 since you are starting from 1. If you want to take 1 of your 16s down to a 15, I would suggest the constitution instead. At 4, you can choose Chef to even it out and get the THP for more tankiness. You'll have the same unarmored defense AC with a 14 dex and 15 con as I had with a 13 dex and 16 con, which worked. Keep that shield up for a couple of levels and you'll be fine. Toggle your reckless attack usage to "increase" your defenses if you need to do so. Keep a few potions on hand. Once you get your dex to 14, you won't have to go much higher until much later in any campaign, if you do at all. Even with a 13, I couldn't image fitting it in, even though I was heavily concerned with my defenses at 1st and 2nd level. Your HP will stack up pretty quick after that, especially with a 16 con. Just keep that all in mind and you'll be well informed with your own play experience.
Yeah, I think I'm going to rework my stats to end up the following: Rolls: Str 13 (Modified to 15) Dex 14 Con 15 (Modified to 16) Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 11
Charisma 11 makes it easier to bump to 13 and take levels in Paladin if I still end up wanting to do that later on, without pigeonholing myself into that by placing my 13 in there to start. This gives me 15 unarmored, 17 when I've got the shield out, then 16/18 with Scale Mail or Breastplate, and 17/19 with Half-Plate. Then as some have pointed out, Fighter MC still remains a strong possibility.
I don't think that you should think about multiclassing into a Paladin. Just focus on Barbarian, with the possibility for Fighter or Rogue multiclassing later on if you really feel the need to multiclass. But going straight Barbarian will be just fine. Maybe once you reach 8 levels in Barbarian you can think about multiclassing, but until then I'd go straight Barbarian.
If you had rolled 4 good stats, it'd be a bit easier to think about multiclassing, but you've done what I've done on all 7 characters I've rolled - rolled a 10 or 11 for your 4th best stat, and that does make some of the crazier multiclass strategies not work as well.
As for a feat, I would recommend Slasher or Crusher, as well as Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Sentinel as the ones to consider.
And remember - your character might not even make it to level 8, and by that time you might not be too upset about having to reroll a new character (and hopefully reroll better stats this time) in order to try out whatever new character interests you 6 months or a year from now. Heck, you could even reroll a new character after this one dies and make it the Barbarian-Paladin multiclass after you roll a set of stats more suited to this multiclass combo. Or maybe a year from now you'll feel like making a completely new character that's very different from what you've been playing for the last year.
Out of curiosity and I don’t know if you already replied: which Barbarian sub-class are you going?
Sentinel is a great feat for Barbarians, but if you are an Ancestral Guardian, you will have great use for your reaction by level 6+.
If you do change your stats, which I recommend, go for a useful half-feat like Skill Expert, Crusher or Slasher.
So I did change my stats, ending with 17 in str, 14 in dex and con, 8 int, 10 wis, 11 cha. I was thinking Totem Warrior or Ancestral Guardian. Also looking at all 3 of those possibly. Skill Expert for athletics and str would be fun, but both crusher and slasher are fun options.
Totem, Ancestral, and Zealot are all solid choices without weird playstyles or weaknesses. Wild Magic might even be okay, and could shoehorn some magic back into your life so that you don't miss Paladin too much?
Totem: Makes you well rounded, but not in ways that have many direct impacts on damage output. Better damage resistance from Bear at 3 is very good and 99% of why to take this subclass, because the movement from Elk, Eagle, or Tiger is more niche, and you don't have enough melee teammates for Wolf to be desirable. After that, its really just exploration/RP features for the next 10 levels or so, which is fine.
Ancestral: Gives you ways to taunt at 3 and mitigate damage to your team at 3 and 6, but doesn't really enhance you in any meaningful way. Very good subclass for someone that wants to taunt enemies and take hits (which you do).
Zealot: Boosts your damage while raging right at level 3, and also makes it much cheaper for the party to resurrect you once spells like Raise Dead are within reach, and also makes you a little less likely to die by letting you reroll saves, and also lets you boost your teams damage at 10. Very very good subclass that does a little bit of a lot of good things, tough to beat for team player!
Wild Magic: gives you ways to meaningfully interact with magical RP and exploration stuff, while interjecting some fun/chaos to battles. The ability to give spell slots back to a teammate at 6 is an amazing support ability to grant your cleric, but don't waste it on your warlock. Kind of a weird and unpredictable subclass that probably isn't as strong as Zealot or Bear Totem in most scenarios, but does give your character some very unique and cool abilities so you're not "just" a barbarian!
Totem, Ancestral, and Zealot are all solid choices without weird playstyles or weaknesses. Wild Magic might even be okay, and could shoehorn some magic back into your life so that you don't miss Paladin too much?
Totem: Makes you well rounded, but not in ways that have many direct impacts on damage output. Better damage resistance from Bear at 3 is very good and 99% of why to take this subclass, because the movement from Elk, Eagle, or Tiger is more niche, and you don't have enough melee teammates for Wolf to be desirable. After that, its really just exploration/RP features for the next 10 levels or so, which is fine.
Ancestral: Gives you ways to taunt at 3 and mitigate damage to your team at 3 and 6, but doesn't really enhance you in any meaningful way. Very good subclass for someone that wants to taunt enemies and take hits (which you do).
Zealot: Boosts your damage while raging right at level 3, and also makes it much cheaper for the party to resurrect you once spells like Raise Dead are within reach, and also makes you a little less likely to die by letting you reroll saves, and also lets you boost your teams damage at 10. Very very good subclass that does a little bit of a lot of good things, tough to beat for team player!
Wild Magic: gives you ways to meaningfully interact with magical RP and exploration stuff, while interjecting some fun/chaos to battles. The ability to give spell slots back to a teammate at 6 is an amazing support ability to grant your cleric, but don't waste it on your warlock. Kind of a weird and unpredictable subclass that probably isn't as strong as Zealot or Bear Totem in most scenarios, but does give your character some very unique and cool abilities so you're not "just" a barbarian!
I wish Berserker didn't force you to limit Zealot to once a day, unless you know you're going to have a few days of travel with little-to-no chance of road encounters. Well, I mean it doesn't do it TECHNICALLY, but compounding points of exhausting is not ideal
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We're playing a new game starting Thursday, and our party consists of a Gnome Rogue, Elf or Human Ranger (cannot remember race), Kenku Warlock, Human Cleric, and my Minotaur Barbarian. We rolled stats and I ended up with 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8
With racial bonuses, I ended up with Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 13 (with the idea of an honorable warrior who might, eventually, take on the role of a Paladin as well - yes, I know, not a super optimized course but it kinda fit my character idea plus I love hearing the smite mechanic in podcasts and wanted to give it a try).
The big thing is, I was looking at some feats as opposed to stat boosts, and I really like a few in particular:
Tavern Brawler
Tough (basically leaning in full towards HP)
Sentinel
Savage Attacker
Magic Initiate (because sometimes I like going very odd routes)
Fell Handed (currently using a greatsword but this would make a greataxe more fun)
Charger (if I lean in full towards dash+gore as often as possible)
Great Weapon Master (though -5 to hit might be rough as I will only get a +6 to hit at the when I can take the feat)
I'm practically brand new to 5e (played tons of Pathfinder and older versions of D&D), and I've got time (we're starting at first thank goodness). I will obviously be getting armor (save up for half-plate) and pondering getting a battle axe and shield to use when I'm not raging. Any thoughts? Has anyone made a Barbaladin work?
The charger feat is particularly bad on minotaurs, because the feat and the race generate similar bonus actions that don't buff each other. Definitely don't take it.
Barbarian Paladin is a multiclass that is definitely workable. Smites + Reckless Attack for advantage is dangerous. Take 6 levels in Barbarian to get extra attack and 4 rages a day. Then take two levels of paladin for smite. Finish off with sorcerer or bard depending on what you fancy so that you progress your spell slots faster for smiting purposes.
What do you want your armor situation to be? Medium armor or unarmored? Your stats aren't perfect for AC purposes. You can sacrifice con to get the most out of medium armor with a 14 dex but I'm not sure it's worth it.
Great Weapon Master is the best option out of all the feats listed mechanically because reckless attack enables it so well. Just grab a big ol weapon and smack people.
Polearm Master is an excellent option as well if halberds and glaives and like are weapons you like.
Honestly most feats can apply to most characters depending on what direction you want to go. Tough and great weapon master are awesome feats.
More and more I'm finding that the feats that don't directly add to combat prowess are more interesting/fun/useful than those that seem to add power to your character's attacks.
I currently have two level 8 characters in my campaign using power-attack feats: Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. The Barbarian with Great Weapon Master is attacking with +4, advantage, and hitting for 2d6+18 damage a hit (greatsword, strength, magic weapon, rage, averages 25) and the Bloodhunter is attacking with +6 for 1d10+1d6+1d6+15 (heavy crossbow, hex, crimson rite, magic weapon) giving an average of 28 damage a hit. With two attacks each, they are regularly dealing 100 damage in a single round between them.
This sounds great. And yet, the main result of this is that as DM I've increased the hit points of all the key monsters by at least 100, and in the case of something like an adult dragon I've had to up its hit points from 215 to 415. This is necessary not to mess with the players, but to ensure that they actually enjoy the combats. There's nothing much fun about building up to fight an adult green dragon for a while only to find that it's dead in two turns of combat and it only got off one breath and some legendary actions.
Feats like Alert, Keen Mind, Linguist etc. are far more flavourful and enjoyable to play with, and enhance roleplaying much more. Take a look at Fey Touched, or feats that will give you a Familiar or things along those lines as well as the ones that seem to buff you up.
Mobile, Sentinel, Alert, and don't forget Lucky (best feat in the game).
Armor situation... well, it's a crapshoot because of my poor Dex (but all my "bonus" stats are tied up in Str, Con and Cha for multiclassing). Medium armor at least lets me rage, and half-plate plus a shield for non-raging moments (less likely at higher level) would mean an 18 AC. Not AMAZING, but probably sufficient. I'd go heavy armor, but there's nothing that lets me rage in heavy armor so that's out.
I mostly was looking at the +5, but you're right that a lot of the additional benefits would be wasted.
Definitely looking hard at Sentinel. Try and focus on keeping people from running past me.
That said, the idea of Barbarian 6 / Paladin 2 and then going something like Bard sounds like it could be fun. RP concept would be interesting to figure that one out :)
Eh.
Linguist just means the DM puts the exposition in 4 languages instead of 2, and the ciphers it grants - as well as pretty much all of Keen Mind - are something most DMs would let anyone do with an INT check. You are just better at some things, and typically the DM is going to have to go out of their way one way or another to highlight them or compensate for them because the game is designed to run without feats - the damage ones are not special in that regard. I don't see how those listed "enhance roleplaying much more" than the hooks provided by the brutal recklessness of GWM or the quick reflexes of Sentinel.
Not to say these feats aren't fun or that they are worse picks, but asserting that non-combat feats provide more roleplaying opportunity is perpetuating this idea that roleplaying and combat are diametrically opposed. They're not, and I feel the need to call out this thinking whenever I see it. Someone who roleplays the heck out of Alert could also roleplay the heck out of Sharpshooter. Take Linguist if it fits your character or develops them in a way that fits your story. Take GWM for the same reasons.
When I have a list of options like OP included, I'll sit back and think about the character and how I want them to grow (also factoring in what I like to play or explore as a player). Any of those choices would be good, so you can't go wrong. If you pick the one that best fits the concept/story you want to explore or the one that feels most compelling to you, I would bet that you'll have more fun with that choice.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Paladins are a lot more offensive than they are defensive/support, and what your party needs is “tank” not “striker.” That 13 in Dex instead of Cha would make you much better at your party role, and would fit an easy Skill Expert or Slasher for 14 Dex in Half Plate. That’s just straight up more effective than Paladin.
If you want interesting features, find them in feats or Fighter levels. Chef (+1 Con) would be good for you and fun (barbs don’t have many bonus actions, THP makes you better at your job), with another +1 con from something else down the road. Battlemaster can give more reliable bonus damage than smite would, and set up fun control like fear, pushes, disarms, etc.
Dont go down the PAM and GWM trees yet or at all, I’d build your feats for Strength, Con, a lil Dex… you don’t really even have room for sentinel, unless you MC 6+ fighter levels for feat acceleration. Barbarians need to take ASI or a half-stat feat pretty much every time, since they’re 3-stat MAD.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I mean, it sounds like the party needs a fighter, and then maybe multiclass for a little Barbarian. I see what you're getting at; I just didn't know if HP+Rage was effective as "higher AC".
Definitely worried I didn't pick the best class for this party build.
Some might argue that low AC and HP+Rage(+THP) makes you a better Tank than high AC would, because the DM will be tempted to actually attack you and use up that HP resource, rather than avoiding you and leaving it unutilized. A high AC fighter can rarely lock down more than a single enemy combatant (even with Sentinel, they've only got one Reaction to burn on Opportunity Attacks), and in a party where you're the only melee combatant (ranger and warlock are ranged, cleric is probably ranged, and rogue is probably either ranged or hit-and-run?), being a target that the DM wants to attack with multiple enemies, who can survive those attacks, is a very good approach.
You don't need 20+ AC from Heavy Armor etc., but 15 is far too low to be realistic. 17-19 is pretty standard for mundane AC for a non-turtle frontline character by level 5+. You can barely reach that with 10 Dex (Half Plate and Shield, no Dex), or you can comfortably inhabit it with 13 or 14.
I think that if "tank" is what your party needs (even if the Cleric is also built as an off-tank), there's a solid case for starting as a Barbarian at level 1 (12 starting HP and Rage is a huge HP boost in low tier play), and taking it at level 2 (Reckless Attack is an effective taunt), and level 3 (3 rages per day is much better than 2, and subclass features), and 4 (you want a feat or an ASI as soon as possible), and 5 (Extra Attack right on curve!).
As a new player in a new group, it may not even be very helpful to think beyond that very far, that might be your entire campaign! But if play does look like it'll continue on to about level 11, you've got a real fork in your road.... switching to 6 levels of Fighter would make you more offensive, between Action Surge , subclass features like Battlemaster giving you bonus damage and interesting maneuvers, faster feats raising your strength or unlocking feats like Great Weapon Master faster, etc... it's very hard to picture a character that does more damage without 2-6 levels of Fighter than it is to imagine how MCing into Fighter helps. But the Ranger, Rogue, and Warlock are the ones that should be worrying about damage, you as a Tank have the luxury to focus on your own HP and utility to a greater extent, so I think it's fine to just leave Fighter on the table and play a pure Barbarian, or defer making that Fighter splash until you can't live without it.
So... no, I think you've picked the right character. But that 13 should be in Dexterity, and you should leave thoughts of a Barbadin for theorycrafting for the time being and focus on playing a solid Minotaur Barbarian. Your party already has two spellcasters, your inability to MC into anything other than Fighter or Rogue in the future is fine.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yeah, I think I'm going to rework my stats to end up the following:
Rolls:
Str 13 (Modified to 15)
Dex 14
Con 15 (Modified to 16)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 11
Charisma 11 makes it easier to bump to 13 and take levels in Paladin if I still end up wanting to do that later on, without pigeonholing myself into that by placing my 13 in there to start.
This gives me 15 unarmored, 17 when I've got the shield out, then 16/18 with Scale Mail or Breastplate, and 17/19 with Half-Plate. Then as some have pointed out, Fighter MC still remains a strong possibility.
You’re going to get side eyed for being a Barbarian with mediocre strength… it’ll come up to 16 at 4 with a +1 Str feat like Skill Expert or Slasher, but if you swapped out around with constitution that could be 18. The lower Str isn’t a bad idea though, because from level 2 onwards, Reckless attack granting advantage in attacks can make you hit more reliably (and thus do more damage) in a way that patches that shortcoming.
A Str feat at 4, and ASI +2 Str at 8, and ASI +2 Str at 12 is in your future with this start. If you swapped Con and Str, then you could fit a different feat (like Tough) in at 8 or 12. Either way is fine.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The survivability vs damage debate, basically. Do I bank on my team doing the damage and focus on survivability, or vice-versa?
True, I could drop the 15 into str, get a 17, the 14 into con for a 15 and the 13 into dex. That would also give more room for either split ASIs or feats with +1 bonuses, that would probably be more fun. Like getting Slasher at 4, Cook at 8, Athletic at 12 possibly. (Though I honestly don't know if I'll bank on getting past 10th, we really have no idea what the end of the campaign, if any, will look like - we tend to focus on open-ended campaigns, so it's not like we have a specific end narrative we're aiming for)
I completely agree with Chicken Champ. Especially with you not knowing how far this campaign will go simply building for a great barbarian experience seems like the best approach. Your rolls just don't support the MC well, and with your future iffy, why bother stretching your character in ways that may never come to fruition? As such, I would definitely put the 15, 14, 13 in your physicals with your +2/+1 bringing strength up to 17 and con up to 14. I don't think +1 hp makes you that much tankier as to outshine being able to pick up a sweet half-feat to round up your strength to 18. Skill Expert is my favorite option for sure.
Out of curiosity and I don’t know if you already replied: which Barbarian sub-class are you going?
Sentinel is a great feat for Barbarians, but if you are an Ancestral Guardian, you will have great use for your reaction by level 6+.
If you do change your stats, which I recommend, go for a useful half-feat like Skill Expert, Crusher or Slasher.
I went with an Orc Zealot Barbarian and I had a lot of fun in our LMoP campaign with him. Asutar had the stat line of 16,13,16,8,12,10 from Standard Array and played very well. I ended up with Great Weapon Master at 4. I was using a greataxe most of the time after 3rd level, but I used either dual wield hand axes or a hand axe and shield until then. I picked up Hew at some point after 4th and would switch between it (usually 2 handed, unless I was switching weapons in combat and didn't want to just drop my greataxe) and my greataxe depending on whether I wanted to use the power attack from GWM or whether I wanted the greater accuracy from the magic weapon. The bonus action generated from GWM does work with non-heavy weapons but the power attack does not.
After 3rd, I was not concerned about my HP and I never went down. I was the party's lone melee character 90% of the time (the rogue would switch hit on occasion) and the grave cleric loved to cast Aid. I would regularly be a lead damager along with the rogue while the warlock would get in some Shatter action for some AoE. It worked out great. Combat won't be particularly diverse, though the charge from a Minotaur could help change it up a touch more than what I had. Going with the Paladin aspect wouldn't likely change much other than adding smites and the ability to heal yourself. Going straight barbarian would get you into the things that you'll want to do faster and those first 5 levels are key for the full flavor of what a barbarian wants to do. GWM is fine and reckless attacks do help enable it, meaning that you'll be able to deal with the lower attack than anyone that takes their attack stat at 4. However, there were times that I wanted the higher attack bonus from the magic weapon and it didn't happen to be my greataxe. Keep that in mind. A +2 strength at 4 may be boring, but it is effective and being able to hit things will make the experience fun.
The options that you have chosen are fine. You'll have 3 levels worth of play time to get a feel for what you'll need at 4 since you are starting from 1. If you want to take 1 of your 16s down to a 15, I would suggest the constitution instead. At 4, you can choose Chef to even it out and get the THP for more tankiness. You'll have the same unarmored defense AC with a 14 dex and 15 con as I had with a 13 dex and 16 con, which worked. Keep that shield up for a couple of levels and you'll be fine. Toggle your reckless attack usage to "increase" your defenses if you need to do so. Keep a few potions on hand. Once you get your dex to 14, you won't have to go much higher until much later in any campaign, if you do at all. Even with a 13, I couldn't image fitting it in, even though I was heavily concerned with my defenses at 1st and 2nd level. Your HP will stack up pretty quick after that, especially with a 16 con. Just keep that all in mind and you'll be well informed with your own play experience.
I don't think that you should think about multiclassing into a Paladin. Just focus on Barbarian, with the possibility for Fighter or Rogue multiclassing later on if you really feel the need to multiclass. But going straight Barbarian will be just fine. Maybe once you reach 8 levels in Barbarian you can think about multiclassing, but until then I'd go straight Barbarian.
If you had rolled 4 good stats, it'd be a bit easier to think about multiclassing, but you've done what I've done on all 7 characters I've rolled - rolled a 10 or 11 for your 4th best stat, and that does make some of the crazier multiclass strategies not work as well.
As for a feat, I would recommend Slasher or Crusher, as well as Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Sentinel as the ones to consider.
And remember - your character might not even make it to level 8, and by that time you might not be too upset about having to reroll a new character (and hopefully reroll better stats this time) in order to try out whatever new character interests you 6 months or a year from now. Heck, you could even reroll a new character after this one dies and make it the Barbarian-Paladin multiclass after you roll a set of stats more suited to this multiclass combo. Or maybe a year from now you'll feel like making a completely new character that's very different from what you've been playing for the last year.
So I did change my stats, ending with 17 in str, 14 in dex and con, 8 int, 10 wis, 11 cha. I was thinking Totem Warrior or Ancestral Guardian. Also looking at all 3 of those possibly. Skill Expert for athletics and str would be fun, but both crusher and slasher are fun options.
Totem, Ancestral, and Zealot are all solid choices without weird playstyles or weaknesses. Wild Magic might even be okay, and could shoehorn some magic back into your life so that you don't miss Paladin too much?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I wish Berserker didn't force you to limit Zealot to once a day, unless you know you're going to have a few days of travel with little-to-no chance of road encounters.
Well, I mean it doesn't do it TECHNICALLY, but compounding points of exhausting is not ideal