Taking a look at the subclasses, debating whether to go divination wizard or scribe for my next character. Came across the Manifest Mind ability.
Won't repost but in short, you can have an incorporeal mind summoned all day within 300ft of you, only able to be destroyed via dispel magic (aside from you being killed / losing your spell book), and it can both see, move, and cast spells for you (Though only PB times per day).
I'm struggling to see what stops this from being incredibly easy to abuse? Sending out your familiar to scour the dungeon was already a thing. This can do the same, has 3x the telepathy range, is only killable by certain spellcasters, and can pre-emptively fireball rooms you think look scary & even if it does get killed, it only costs a single 1st lvl spell slot to re-summon.
I'm also kind of curious how it interacts with aura spells such as spirit shroud. It says it can have spells cast through it as if they originated in it's location. But does this actually change the spell's AOE to be emanating from it as well? Or just that the spell originates from the manifest mind, but is still cast upon the caster (in which case there's essentially no difference).
I also found it interesting that their quill doesn't require ink but says nothing about making spell scribing cheaper. This is probably a balance thing but doesn't exactly sit well for me as the "scribe" archetype for the wizard.
Overall I think the flavour is cool but this subclass more than most seems in need of an errata to clarify the rulings. Curious what people think about this subclass & how it was balanced for release?
From a quick read you can move it 30 feet to a point you can see and it disappears if further than 300 feet from you. You can't see through it's eyes/senses. So you can't use it to scout - as soon as it turns a corner you can't send it to a "point you can see". It also wouldn't set off traps. So not really as good as a familiar.
My guess is that for spells all effects use the point of origin as though the manifest mind was the caster. Am sure others will know more though.
I don't hate the subclass but am not in love with it either - like a lot of Tashas.
From a quick read you can move it 30 feet to a point you can see and it disappears if further than 300 feet from you. You can't see through it's eyes/senses. So you can't use it to scout - as soon as it turns a corner you can't send it to a "point you can see". It also wouldn't set off traps. So not really as good as a familiar.
Might want to re-read it:
"The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)."
You can absolutely use it as a scout, so long as you're within 300ft (which covers a significant chunk of most pre-written dungeons I can think of). You can also then use this to cast a spell through it.
It also specifies the mind can be moved anywhere you, *or it* can see, and when you cast spells through it, you can use *Its senses*, implying it's telepathy works more like variant familiars than the find familiar variety, in that the mind isn't telling you what it sees, but you are infact able to use it's senses as your own.
Also worth noting this is in addition to having a normal familiar anyway.
So yeah, pretty powerful. Didn't see anything about manipulating objects (no str score etc) so will be stopped by doors and so forth. Also as I said, won't set off traps (though may detect them). Also could you cast invis on it? If not then it is going to be pretty obvious someone is scoping the place out - any monsters (of vague intelligence) will be on guard.
Still, I hate this less than druids getting a familiar. A animal companion I would be fine with but a familiar ... and without any component cost etc. 25gp is a lot for some campaigns so sending a familiar to scout is a medium risk of resources ... not so now.
Ghosts are undead creatures tethered to the world through some kind of negative energy. Most are the souls of humanoids that used to be alive and had eyes.
I'm asking how the Mind sees because it is relevant. If the Mind has Truesight, that gets shared with the Wizard doesn't it? Without eyes, can the Mind be blinded? If someone threw a canvas sack over the Mind, can the Mind see through the sack? Does a Blindness spell work if cast on the Mind? These are important questions for a DM.
Right but trouble with this is the "manifest mind" could literally manifest as anything. It could be a face, a book, an orb or a flying banana. The way it sees is through magic, that's it.
Yes a canvas would block it's vision because it blocks everyone's vision, however it is "intangible" and "spectral" so (depending on how you interpret that) you may or may not be able to put the canvas over it, since it may just go straight through.
Since it sees through magic and doesn't have functioning eyes it can't be blinded using a blindfold or other mundane means. It also isn't a viable target for the blindness/ deafness spell because it's a tiny object instead of a creature, which the spell requires.
Basically think of the Mind as an AI made of magic instead of science. It's like Cortana from Halo. It can see, so the blindness spell would work on it, the blindness spell does not specify a need for the target to have eyes, so if it can see, then it can be blinded, and the book clearly states "the spectral Mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet". Forget everything anyone's said about Truesight because it does *not* have truesight. As for the sack, the book says the Mind is a "Tiny spectral object" that is "intangible and doesn't occupy its space", so the sack would simply go through the Mind the way it would a ghost.
Good point, but I'd still leave it up to DM interpretation, and to me it seems fair that you should be able to blind it, and if the ruling were up to me I'd still allow it
It wouldn’t be fair to blind it with that spell. That’s the reason they defined it as an object. The creators have created these classes and defined these features deliberately. This feature, and a few others, make them unable to be targeted by the majority of Magic spells by deliberately changing how the words that define them as targets are different for these features.
This is why the artillerist cannon is difficult to deal with, it’s a magical object with high AC. This is also why the echo knights echo is harder to deal with than a familiar, it’s also a magical object and isn’t targetable by most AOE. This is the reason why the centaur and satyr are fey, to bypass spells that target humanoids.
im sure there are more examples, but these are the ones I could think of most recently.
I'm pretty sure they put this in to prevent it being super useful as a scout, but they really needed to elaborate on this a bit. Like what's the smallest hole it can pass through? Could it pass through a window screen? The crack under a door? A keyhole? A 2-inch sewer grate? Tiny size is not enough information to answer these.
What happens if the ceiling caves in on it? Is it trapped under the debris until one of the specific criteria is met for it to disappear? Can you literally just throw a bag on it? A bag is certainly an object. If so, how much weight can you put on it before it falls to the ground? Probably somewhere between a bag and the ceiling, but where's that line?
It's intangible, spectral, can move through creatures, and doesn't occupy its space. Buuuuut it can't go through objects because that would be too strong. It's left up to us to deal with how the hell you explain that in a way that makes sense in your campaign world.
Taking a look at the subclasses, debating whether to go divination wizard or scribe for my next character. Came across the Manifest Mind ability.
Won't repost but in short, you can have an incorporeal mind summoned all day within 300ft of you, only able to be destroyed via dispel magic (aside from you being killed / losing your spell book), and it can both see, move, and cast spells for you (Though only PB times per day).
I'm struggling to see what stops this from being incredibly easy to abuse? Sending out your familiar to scour the dungeon was already a thing. This can do the same, has 3x the telepathy range, is only killable by certain spellcasters, and can pre-emptively fireball rooms you think look scary & even if it does get killed, it only costs a single 1st lvl spell slot to re-summon.
I'm also kind of curious how it interacts with aura spells such as spirit shroud. It says it can have spells cast through it as if they originated in it's location. But does this actually change the spell's AOE to be emanating from it as well? Or just that the spell originates from the manifest mind, but is still cast upon the caster (in which case there's essentially no difference).
I also found it interesting that their quill doesn't require ink but says nothing about making spell scribing cheaper. This is probably a balance thing but doesn't exactly sit well for me as the "scribe" archetype for the wizard.
Overall I think the flavour is cool but this subclass more than most seems in need of an errata to clarify the rulings. Curious what people think about this subclass & how it was balanced for release?
From a quick read you can move it 30 feet to a point you can see and it disappears if further than 300 feet from you. You can't see through it's eyes/senses. So you can't use it to scout - as soon as it turns a corner you can't send it to a "point you can see". It also wouldn't set off traps. So not really as good as a familiar.
My guess is that for spells all effects use the point of origin as though the manifest mind was the caster. Am sure others will know more though.
I don't hate the subclass but am not in love with it either - like a lot of Tashas.
Might want to re-read it:
"The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)."
You can absolutely use it as a scout, so long as you're within 300ft (which covers a significant chunk of most pre-written dungeons I can think of). You can also then use this to cast a spell through it.
It also specifies the mind can be moved anywhere you, *or it* can see, and when you cast spells through it, you can use *Its senses*, implying it's telepathy works more like variant familiars than the find familiar variety, in that the mind isn't telling you what it sees, but you are infact able to use it's senses as your own.
Also worth noting this is in addition to having a normal familiar anyway.
You are right. Did miss that.
So yeah, pretty powerful. Didn't see anything about manipulating objects (no str score etc) so will be stopped by doors and so forth. Also as I said, won't set off traps (though may detect them). Also could you cast invis on it? If not then it is going to be pretty obvious someone is scoping the place out - any monsters (of vague intelligence) will be on guard.
Still, I hate this less than druids getting a familiar. A animal companion I would be fine with but a familiar ... and without any component cost etc. 25gp is a lot for some campaigns so sending a familiar to scout is a medium risk of resources ... not so now.
I don't have Tasha's but I'm curious. How does a mind without eyes or ears see or hear things? It is like an entire head?
The same way a sentient sword can have Truesight... Magic
Isn't an always "on" Truesight at 6th level pretty OP?
I just found the UA. It says nothing about Truesight whatsoever.
It doesn't have truesight, they were just using that as an example of a "creature" without eyes being able to see.
Picture the manifested mind as a hologram. It has eyes, they're just hologram eyes. It can see normally.
I'm sorry, but can you explain how hologram eyes see anything? This is all extremely vague.
The manifest mind sees and hears through magic. Whatever "magic" means to you.
It just does. There is no physical real world analogue. It just happens because that is what the rules want.
It isn't worth getting hung up on, otherwise things like Misty Step and monks teleporting through shadows are really going to blow your mind.
How do ghosts see without a body? They just do, it's magic.
Ghosts are undead creatures tethered to the world through some kind of negative energy. Most are the souls of humanoids that used to be alive and had eyes.
I'm asking how the Mind sees because it is relevant. If the Mind has Truesight, that gets shared with the Wizard doesn't it? Without eyes, can the Mind be blinded? If someone threw a canvas sack over the Mind, can the Mind see through the sack? Does a Blindness spell work if cast on the Mind? These are important questions for a DM.
Have you ever watched Star Trek Next Gen? Like the holodeck, only instead of cameras and computers it’s magic and, well, just magic.
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Did you read Post #12? It would be helpful that the spell clarifies a few things for the benefit of DMs.
Right but trouble with this is the "manifest mind" could literally manifest as anything. It could be a face, a book, an orb or a flying banana. The way it sees is through magic, that's it.
Yes a canvas would block it's vision because it blocks everyone's vision, however it is "intangible" and "spectral" so (depending on how you interpret that) you may or may not be able to put the canvas over it, since it may just go straight through.
Since it sees through magic and doesn't have functioning eyes it can't be blinded using a blindfold or other mundane means. It also isn't a viable target for the blindness/ deafness spell because it's a tiny object instead of a creature, which the spell requires.
Basically think of the Mind as an AI made of magic instead of science. It's like Cortana from Halo. It can see, so the blindness spell would work on it, the blindness spell does not specify a need for the target to have eyes, so if it can see, then it can be blinded, and the book clearly states "the spectral Mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet". Forget everything anyone's said about Truesight because it does *not* have truesight. As for the sack, the book says the Mind is a "Tiny spectral object" that is "intangible and doesn't occupy its space", so the sack would simply go through the Mind the way it would a ghost.
Ah but as you point out the mind is a tiny object. But the blindness spell targets creatures. So it would not be effected by the spell
Good point, but I'd still leave it up to DM interpretation, and to me it seems fair that you should be able to blind it, and if the ruling were up to me I'd still allow it
It wouldn’t be fair to blind it with that spell. That’s the reason they defined it as an object. The creators have created these classes and defined these features deliberately. This feature, and a few others, make them unable to be targeted by the majority of Magic spells by deliberately changing how the words that define them as targets are different for these features.
This is why the artillerist cannon is difficult to deal with, it’s a magical object with high AC. This is also why the echo knights echo is harder to deal with than a familiar, it’s also a magical object and isn’t targetable by most AOE. This is the reason why the centaur and satyr are fey, to bypass spells that target humanoids.
im sure there are more examples, but these are the ones I could think of most recently.
I'm pretty sure they put this in to prevent it being super useful as a scout, but they really needed to elaborate on this a bit. Like what's the smallest hole it can pass through? Could it pass through a window screen? The crack under a door? A keyhole? A 2-inch sewer grate? Tiny size is not enough information to answer these.
What happens if the ceiling caves in on it? Is it trapped under the debris until one of the specific criteria is met for it to disappear? Can you literally just throw a bag on it? A bag is certainly an object. If so, how much weight can you put on it before it falls to the ground? Probably somewhere between a bag and the ceiling, but where's that line?
It's intangible, spectral, can move through creatures, and doesn't occupy its space. Buuuuut it can't go through objects because that would be too strong. It's left up to us to deal with how the hell you explain that in a way that makes sense in your campaign world.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm