I can't even remember the last time one of my characters was feared or charmed. Keep on truckin' with the fact that frenzy /isn't/ somehow the meat and potatoes of zerks.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can't even remember the last time one of my characters was feared or charmed. Keep on truckin' with the fact that frenzy /isn't/ somehow the meat and potatoes of zerks.
Then play a higher level campaign? It’s comments like these that don’t add anything to teach new players about the intricacies of the game beyond low levels. YMMV but don’t take such a limited viewpoint and push it in a thread without qualifying the limitations of the criticism.
I mean, Fear is the very first action of every single Adult Dragon in the game. Charm is the staple of 50% of all casters. In fact, Wisdom Saves is a primary save that either nullify you or turn you against allies.
I mean, sure - like I said, if you play exclusively 1-7 then yeah, immunities like that are underpowered because all you want is HP and resistances (hence why Bear Totem is front-end loaded). But then qualify that in your response at the very least.
But it doesn't protect you if an opponent comes up and nails you with a fear or charm effect before you can act. And it doesn't make up for how underpowered Frenzy is.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And many of them get better as you level so that they'll eventually eclipse the power of Frenzy's bonus attack.
Everything except resistance to fear, which nullifies almost every Barbarian in high level campaigns. It actually balances out very well at higher levels.
Ancient thread, but I wouldn't touch a Zerk with a 10 foot pole. Every other barb is turned on without penalty, every single rage.
You can turn on Berserk without penalty with a Berserker too. And later on, if a Cleric is in the party, you have way more flexibility.
You can use a class without using its subclass' main ability. But if you are actively motivated to do that, its probably a bad subclass.
And even if you have a cleric in the party, its an incredibly over the top fix for your subclass by making them blow high level spell slots and hundreds of gold to cast greater restoration on you a few times each session. You may as well get your friend to play a wizard with Haste to cast on you and just play any other barbarian class for more passive benefits. That would "fix" the issue 4 lvls earlier, albeit while taking up the wizard's concentration.
Thats just your opinion - like I said, the real meat and potatoes for Zerk players is not Frenzy, it’s the resistance to fear and charm. But keep going on about how Frenzy is the only ability of the class worth mentioning...
Greater Restoration is an alternative - usually most Berserkers would just wait until the BBEG or high-level battle that they want the extra attacks. But then again, in these “examples” people throw out somehow the Berserker can either never use it at all or they use it four times per long rest.
From a DM perspective, the Barb PCs I see quit around 8-10th level because they see more status effects and wis/int saves being challenged and they’re usually way too susceptible. What fun is a Barb if you’re stuck in Fear for 10 rounds?
If all you play is 1-7, I agree - it’s underpowered. From 10-20? It pulls ahead nicely.
3rd lvl class abilities are the bread and butter of the subclasses.
The resistances aren’t bad, but you can get the same thing by standing next to a paladin, or getting a lesser restoration cast on you. If solving charm/fear is so powerful, I guess clerics, druids, paladins, and divine soul sorcerers are overpowered for taking care of it earlier than the berserker, without it being their main class feature?
Using 4 frenzies a long rest will quickly kill your berserker, especially if any circumstance causes you to take exhaustion aside from that. And after 3, it defeats the purpose anyway. What good are 3 attacks if two have to be made at disadvantage?
meanwhile, other barbs have consistently greater damage/damage reduction every fight with no downsides, from 3-20.
It’s just too punishing against actually using the main class ability. And not using it just makes your barb subpar mechanically. There is a reason Wizards hasn’t implemented this kind of self-neutering resource for any other class or subclass.
But it doesn't protect you if an opponent comes up and nails you with a fear or charm effect before you can act. And it doesn't make up for how underpowered Frenzy is.
Neither Charmed or Frightened prevents you from raging and immediately negating those effects, and most things that inflict them don't last longer than a full length Rage anyway.
The resistances aren’t bad, but you can get the same thing by standing next to a paladin, or getting a lesser restoration cast on you.
To get the same benefit from a Paladin you have to a) have a Paladin in your party, b) be within 10 feet of that Paladin at all times and c) that Paladin has to conscious whenever you need that ability d) that Paladin has to be 10th level or higher.
And I'm not sure what house rules you're using but Lesser Restoration does not end either of the Charmed or Frightened conditions; Greater Restoration can end Charmed but that's a 5th level spell that requires 100gp of diamond dust every time. This is also where your argument that Clerics/Druids etc. can get this sooner falls apart.
Being able to end Charmed/Frightened on yourself is a very valuable feature, as nothing harms your DPS vs. enemies quite like being unable to hit anything, do anything or even spending the whole time attacking your own party. Other party members might be able to end the effect for you, but that requires them to do something other than what they want to be doing. Self-sufficiency is valuable.
Using 4 frenzies a long rest will quickly kill your berserker, especially if any circumstance causes you to take exhaustion aside from that. And after 3, it defeats the purpose anyway. What good are 3 attacks if two have to be made at disadvantage?
You don't need to use Frenzied Rage all the time, just as plenty of other classes have features that are limited in some way which is why you don't just burn through them all first chance you get. Managing the exhaustion is the trade off for getting 100-50% more two-handed attacks than any other Barbarian during your own turn (and that's on top of the 14th level reaction attack that can bring you to 3-4 per round). And since you're keen on pointing out that other party members can negate things, then surely Exhaustion isn't a concern when a Cleric can get rid of it for you?
Could the Berserker do with an extra minor sweetener at 3rd level? Probably. But it's not a bad sub-class at all, as you can put out more attacks than any other Barbarian, even competing with a Fighter on that basis, while taking half damage and giving yourself advantage whenever you want it.
I'm starting to think that the unifying factor between the sub-classes that you don't like is that you don't know how to play any of them. 😝
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And I'm not sure what house rules you're using but Lesser Restoration does not end either of the Charmed or Frightened conditions; Greater Restoration can end Charmed but that's a 5th level spell that requires 100gp of diamond dust every time. This is also where your argument that Clerics/Druids etc. can get this sooner falls apart.
My bad. But Calm Emotions or Dispel Magic can practically do the same thing. And if your party is really that worried about charm/frightened in their campaign, especially if the main concern is at higher levels, then 100 gold and a 5th level spell slot is still cheaper than an entire subclass's main ability.
Being able to end Charmed/Frightened on yourself is a very valuable feature, as nothing harms your DPS vs. enemies quite like being unable to hit anything, do anything or even spending the whole time attacking your own party. Other party members might be able to end the effect for you, but that requires them to do something other than what they want to be doing. Self-sufficiency is valuable.
Again, as Berserker exists, its their best feature. If we are focused on doing what a role ought to do, dealing more damage or tanking more damage all the time without punishment or even really finite resources seems to be what all other Barbs do (assuming you aren't in a campaign where you can realistically use up all your rages anyways).
plenty of other classes have features that are limited in some way which is why you don't just burn through them all first chance you get.
Its not just a resource mechanic though. If it said "you can use Frenzy x times a long rest" it would be, just like numerous other class' features. But it actively includes a passive punishment as well.
But the idea of comparing it to other class features is instructive. If you use a frenzied rage, you get 9 bonus action attacks out of it. Do other class's features do similar things? Kind of, yes. The battlemaster fighter gets a guarenteed damage boost to many of their attacks, gets access to another attack per round via riposte, and then also get a third and fourth attack just for being a fighter.
But maybe fighters aren't a fair comparison, so what about other barbarian classes? Battlerager barbarian basically gets a free dagger attack every round while raging, no punishment mechanic or resource requirement. And the difference between that and whatever weapon the Berserker will be using won't be very large, since the Berserker isn't likely to great weapon fighting.
The storm herald can do the equivalent of a free cantrip attack every turn. The Zealot gets a damage boost to one of their hits that brings them to about the same mathematical average as the Berserker's 3 attacks for free, and also gets to reroll a failed saving throw once per rage, which isn't as good as outright immunity to frighten/charm, but still offers some protection from that for free.
We can go round and round on this, but the question here really isn't "is mindless rage worth nerfing frenzy." The real question is "why does frenzy need to be nerfed at all?"
I like Berserker as a multi-class option. But the idea of playing a subclass that, from levels 3-13, I could go entire sessions without using any of its features, just sounds abysmal. Even Frenzy would depend on heavy meta-gaming to use, with my eye on how much time is left in the session rather than "would Grok push his limits now? Would this be cool?" And worse, if I pick up levels of exhaustion, I passively suffer through that for multiple sessions. So I could go multiple sessions without using the subclass features at all, but still fail every roleplay related ability check due to disadvantage.
There is a place for Berserker as it is, but it could just be better without breaking anything.
My bad. But Calm Emotions or Dispel Magic can practically do the same thing. And if your party is really that worried about charm/frightened in their campaign, especially if the main concern is at higher levels, then 100 gold and a 5th level spell slot is still cheaper than an entire subclass's main ability.
Calm Emotions requires another of your party members to cast a 2nd level spell requiring concentration to continue suppressing the Frightened effect, so it's no use if your turn comes up first, and stops them from being able to use any other concentration spell, as well as burning one of their slots. Dispel Magic meanwhile is a 3rd level spell that only works if the charmed/frightened condition was triggered by another spell, meaning it won't work against many monster abilities (probably the most likely way to become Frightened).
A Berserker can simply choose not to be Charmed or Frightened by Raging, which is something they usually want to be doing anyway. Not only does it eliminate two potentially very debilitating conditions, it does so without requiring your party to do it for you (if they even can). No idea why you're so determined to hate a feature that is actually very good.
Again, as Berserker exists, its their best feature. If we are focused on doing what a role ought to do, dealing more damage or tanking more damage all the time without punishment or even really finite resources seems to be what all other Barbs do (assuming you aren't in a campaign where you can realistically use up all your rages anyways).
If you're assuming a campaign where using up Rages isn't an issue, then why are you so adamant that Exhaustion is a problem? One level of exhaustion doesn't matter to a Barbarian as you're unlikely to be the main character handling skill checks, and during combat the only checks are for things like grappling and shoving, with Rage cancelling out the penalty anyway. Don't like that, then don't grapple or shove, just axe! Second level of Exhaustion is half speed, which is annoying, but for a front-line fighter that doesn't usually need to move around a lot once they're stuck in it's not a major problem either.
It's only the third level by which exhaustion is a serious penalty (disadvantage on attacks and saving throws), but that's only a problem after you've completed your third Frenzied Rage, if you've got a fourth Rage in you, you can cancel out the disadvantage with reckless attacks. In the meantime you've had up to 27 bonus attacks.
Its not just a resource mechanic though. If it said "you can use Frenzy x times a long rest" it would be, just like numerous other class' features. But it actively includes a passive punishment as well.
That "passive punishment" is the resource mechanic; the limit on your number of uses is how many points of Exhaustion you're willing to take. For most the limit is probably two (up to 18 bonus attacks), you might stretch to three if you're anticipating a long rest soon after. But hell, you can do it six times if you really want to and don't mind having to be brought back to life afterwards; in a desperate enough situation that may be preferable to the entire party being killed.
You're quick to dismiss Charmed/Frightened immunity on the basis that spells can also remove them; but spells can also remove Exhaustion (the same spell in particular in fact, in the case of Greater Restoration). If the rule applies to one, then it must apply to the other.
But the idea of comparing it to other class features is instructive. If you use a frenzied rage, you get 9 bonus action attacks out of it. Do other class's features do similar things? Kind of, yes. The battlemaster fighter gets a guarenteed damage boost to many of their attacks, gets access to another attack per round via riposte, and then also get a third and fourth attack just for being a fighter.
The problem with the comparison is that those Riposte attacks use you reaction, and the maximum you can make is six per short rest. A Berserker who uses Frenzied Rage once can get their bonus attack up to nine times with no other prerequisite for them being able to get it (no reaction trigger). At 14th level the Berserker also gets a free Riposte every single turn. And this is all on top of the extra damage and damage reductions that Barbarians get a standard. So the Fighter can some of the time get more attacks at certain levels and using a finite resource, it's not until they hit 20th that they consistently have more, but at that level the Barbarian has +4 Strength and Constitution instead.
But maybe fighters aren't a fair comparison, so what about other barbarian classes? Battlerager barbarian basically gets a free dagger attack every round while raging, no punishment mechanic or resource requirement. And the difference between that and whatever weapon the Berserker will be using won't be very large, since the Berserker isn't likely to great weapon fighting.
A dagger does 1d4 damage, compared to 1d12 or 2d6 for a two-handed weapon; and that's assuming you never gain any better equipment during a campaign. A Berserker only needs to improve one weapon to increase the damage of all of their attacks, including the bonus ones.
The storm herald can do the equivalent of a free cantrip attack every turn.
You're comparing a weak area of effect to single target damage; a Berserker's extra attack can deal 1d12 or 2d6 + Strength modifier + Rage damage on a hit, so 11.5 to 13 by 10th level, assuming no magical weapon and a +3 or +4 STR. A Storm Herald's aura is only doing 4 or ~7 (assuming no saves). The Storm Herald is great for mobs of enemies, but it's doing less bonus damage against a single target, and you've got to take care not to harm allies (though again, not a tonne of damage).
And that's not even factoring in the increased damage from a Barbarian's Brutal Criticals (more attacks means more chances of actually scoring one).
The Zealot gets a damage boost to one of their hits that brings them to about the same mathematical average as the Berserker's 3 attacks for free
Not really, by 10th level it's 1d6+5, so an average of 8.5. It maxes out at 1d6+10, by which point the Berserker's extra attack will be doing about ~18 damage per hit (7 for the weapon +7 for Strength modifier +4 for Rage), again assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses. I like the Zealot, but the main benefit of their bonus damage IMO is that it has an elemental type so might hurt something your regular damage won't, but that's very situational.
I like Berserker as a multi-class option. But the idea of playing a subclass that, from levels 3-13, I could go entire sessions without using any of its features, just sounds abysmal. Even Frenzy would depend on heavy meta-gaming to use, with my eye on how much time is left in the session rather than "would Grok push his limits now? Would this be cool?" And worse, if I pick up levels of exhaustion, I passively suffer through that for multiple sessions. So I could go multiple sessions without using the subclass features at all, but still fail every roleplay related ability check due to disadvantage.
It doesn't require "heavy meta-gaming"; just play the character. If it makes sense for them to go into a frenzy at a given moment then go into the frenzy. Barbarians are all about risk and taking punishment, if you're worrying about the cost of everything then you're not playing as a barbarian, you're playing as an accountant. 😝
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Two levels of Exhaustion sucks eggs!! The biggest issue I always see a Barb running into is they kill everything they can reach, and then have to truck halfway across the battlefield to get to anything else since none of their stuff works for thrown weapons. That’s why Barbarians get extra movement. But use your base core subclass feature more than once and it’s slowmo. 🤮
Two levels of Exhaustion sucks eggs!! The biggest issue I always see a Barb running into is they kill everything they can reach, and then have to truck halfway across the battlefield to get to anything else since none of their stuff works for thrown weapons. That’s why Barbarians get extra movement. But use your base core subclass feature more than once and it’s slowmo. 🤮
Javelins are Strength weapons; you don't get the bonus Rage damage but if you're happy to go Reckless you can lob them 120 feet quite happily, and in a Frenzy you can chuck three per turn (just make sure to buy more than the measly four you start out with).
This is also an effect that doesn't apply until after you finish your second Frenzied Rage. Plus Exhaustion doesn't happen in isolation unless you're completely alone; if you have party members with Greater Restoration they can eliminate exhaustion penalties, or if you get Haste then the speed penalty disappears, and that one gives you another attack for good measure while you're Frenzied (four attacks per turn with damage resistance and optional advantage anyone?), at lower levels Longstrider will do well enough (depends how your DM interprets the order the penalty and bonus apply in).
You can easily mitigate Exhaustion, or you can choose not to take it until you really need to, e.g- big boss fights, or a mixture of both.
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One level of exhaustion doesn't matter to a Barbarian as you're unlikely to be the main character handling skill checks,
You don't see how that really shoe horns your into "big dumb brute" way harder than even being a barbarian requires to begin with? No other subclass hurts your roleplay for using its features.
That "passive punishment" is the resource mechanic; the limit on your number of uses is how many points of Exhaustion you're willing to take.
But you aren't expending a resource, you are taking on progressively harder handicaps. It is fundamentally different from running out of uses of an ability, or else there would have been no reason to implement it in the first place.
You're quick to dismiss Charmed/Frightened immunity on the basis that spells can also remove them; but spells can also remove Exhaustion (the same spell in particular in fact, in the case of Greater Restoration). If the rule applies to one, then it must apply to the other.
First off, how many times do I have to say that charmed/frightened immunity is great? Go start a thread asking that question if you want to argue it. Or maybe ask if that and the 14th level abilities are good enough as an entire subclass, if that is what you want to argue.
But while exhaustion is a constantly building onus if you use your class ability, charmed/frightened can be handled without being the entire main ability of your class. A cleric or druid might have to burn a spell slot once or twice a session to undo those conditions (and they will need to for your other party members, unless you're all berserkers), but they won't have to assign spell slots by default to make your character capable of just using their class abilities unhindered.
The problem with the comparison is that those Riposte attacks use you reaction, and the maximum you can make is six per short rest. A Berserker who uses Frenzied Rage once can get their bonus attack up to nine times with no other prerequisite for them being able to get it (no reaction trigger). At 14th level the Berserker also gets a free Riposte every single turn. And this is all on top of the damage reduction that Barbarians get.
Its not a problem that a Battlemaster gets to take an attack that no one else has access to until level 14, using a reaction that might well otherwise go unused, and that gets extra damage on top. And exhaustion will come into the picture at some point, meaning that at that second level, your bastard of a dm who throws charmed/frightened at you enough for immunity to that condition to be your main subclass ability for 8 levels will send out critters that can kite your reduced speed. And even if the dm is charitable, at the third level of exhaustion you are giving every enemy advantage in their attacks against you.
And by your own admission, you aren't going to get to use frenzy for every fight, or even for most fights. So that battlemaster's damage is quickly going to snowball over frenzy.
A dagger does 1d4 damage, compared to 1d12 or 2d6 for a two-handed weapon; and that's assuming you never gain any better equipment during a campaign. A Berserker only needs to improve one weapon to increase the damage of all of their attacks, including the bonus ones.
Given that you are assuming you aren't going to be using that third attack most of the time, it comes out pretty far ahead. Also, a d4+rage bonus+strength only means missing out an average of 4 damage, maybe a bit more if you factor in crits. And thats before taking into account that the battlerager can always benefit from reckless attack fully, never having to use it to counteract the punishment from their other subclass abilities.
If frenzy had some normal resource cap like half your rages per long rest instead of a punishment mechanic, it would be pretty balanced.
The magic item thing is a fair consideration, but its also a very random one. Your dm might throw out some gimmes to fit your class (in which case, I don't see why the dm would do that for a berserker, but not a battlerager), or it might be totally random and the best two handed magical weapon you find to fit your berserker is a +2 Great club.
You're comparing a weak area of effect to single target damage; a Berserker's extra attack can deal 1d12 or 2d6 + Strength modifier + Rage damage on a hit, so 11.5 to 13 by 10th level, assuming no magical weapon and a +3 or +4 STR. A Storm Herald's aura is only doing 4 or ~7 (assuming no saves). The Storm Herald is great for mobs of enemies, but it's doing less bonus damage against a single target, and you've got to take care not to harm allies (though again, not a tonne of damage).
And that's not even factoring in the increased damage from a Barbarian's Brutal Criticals (more attacks means more chances of actually scoring one).
All of this assumes the Berserker gets to use their frenzied attacks anywhere near enough to cover over an ability that can almost always be used, and that the storm herald's two reckless attacks that are never depended upon for countering exhaustion do not rack up more damage by default in the form of more hits and more crits.
The brutal criticals go both ways in this case: if you are managing frenzy by using it less or by accepting levels of exhaustion, then you aren't consistently making third attacks, or else you aren't making as many attacks at advantage. Either way nets you the same number of critical hits or less, but without a free aoe damage or single target cantrip attack equivalent.
Not really, by 10th level it's 1d6+5, so an average of 8.5. It maxes out at 1d6+10, by which point the Berserker's extra attack will be doing about ~18 damage per hit (7 for the weapon +7 for Strength modifier +4 for Rage), again assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses. I like the Zealot, but the main benefit of their bonus damage IMO is that it has an elemental type so might hurt something your regular damage won't, but that's very situational.
But we also must acknowledge that it triggers on hit, so there is no randomness to whether or not it will land if we assume the same hit rates for the two subclasses. Also, it adds an extra dice to critical hits. So the Zealot can do more consistent damage than a berserker who is not frenzied, will fall behind for a bit for the 27 attacks the first time the berserker ever rages to the third level of exhaustion, but then will pull back ahead as their crit rate and brutal critical continue to work at full force, and as the berserker begins forgoing frenzy. And because exhaustion is so slow to deal with without outside help, the berserker never gets to just use 2 frenzies in a row again and avoid the 3rd exhaustion level penalty without waiting multiple long rests first.
It doesn't require "heavy meta-gaming"; just play the character. If it makes sense for them to go into a frenzy at a given moment then go into the frenzy. Barbarians are all about risk and taking punishment, if you're worrying about the cost of everything then you're not playing as a barbarian, you're playing as an accountant
Pretty ironic statement coming from the guy who keeps claiming that downside of frenzy is just a resource to be managed, and the class totally pulls ahead on balance because its 6th level feature makes up for it. If thats the issue, we're both accountants at this point, and throwing aside all the math, I can just go back to the widely agreed upon argument that being punished for using my subclass' abilities over the course of whole sessions is stupid.
But I'll watch and see if you publish that letter you must be working on writing to Wizards, the one where you say all barbarians need some kind of self-destruct mechanic, and that only the berserker is a real barbarian.
You know, I also didn't even consider how frenzy's exhaustion threat can also hurt your 14th level ability too, screwing with its chance to hit if you get to three levels of exhaustion. Meaning that using your first subclass ability also hurts your capstone subclass ability.
You know, I also didn't even consider how frenzy's exhaustion threat can also hurt your 14th level ability too, screwing with its chance to hit if you get to three levels of exhaustion. Meaning that using your first subclass ability also hurts your capstone subclass ability.
It just completely trips over itself.
Pretty much. The extra attack is pretty much not worth giving up everything you can get out of another subclass, with no penalties. Berserker would be in a good place if Frenzy didn't suck. But it does, and it drags the rest of berserker down with it. Berserkers are iconic, and I'd love to play one, but not with these mechanics.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yeah. still could be kind of fun to play with as a kind of challenge (how can I make this work)? Its not as if the world is an objectively worse place for it existing. It just could be more fun on its own merits.
Two levels of Exhaustion sucks eggs!! The biggest issue I always see a Barb running into is they kill everything they can reach, and then have to truck halfway across the battlefield to get to anything else since none of their stuff works for thrown weapons. That’s why Barbarians get extra movement. But use your base core subclass feature more than once and it’s slowmo. 🤮
Javelins are Strength weapons; you don't get the bonus Rage damage but if you're happy to go Reckless you can lob them 120 feet quite happily, and in a Frenzy you can chuck three per turn (just make sure to buy more than the measly four you start out with).
This is also an effect that doesn't apply until after you finish your second Frenzied Rage. Plus Exhaustion doesn't happen in isolation unless you're completely alone; if you have party members with Greater Restoration they can eliminate exhaustion penalties, or if you get Haste then the speed penalty disappears, and that one gives you another attack for good measure while you're Frenzied (four attacks per turn with damage resistance and optional advantage anyone?), at lower levels Longstrider will do well enough (depends how your DM interprets the order the penalty and bonus apply in).
You can easily mitigate Exhaustion, or you can choose not to take it until you really need to, e.g- big boss fights, or a mixture of both.
As weapons (as opposed to ammunition) a PC can only draw one weapon as a free action on their turn. They would have to give up their entire action to draw a second javelin, meaning they could only throw at most 3 javelins every two turns.
And their Advantage from reckless is canceled past 30 ft., so not “happily.”
You don't see how that really shoe horns your into "big dumb brute" way harder than even being a barbarian requires to begin with? No other subclass hurts your roleplay for using its features.
Considering that in the thread where you attacked the Way of the Kensei Monk you flat out refused to factor in non-combat bonuses, making this argument here is a huge double standard.
Barbarians and Fighters are good at combat; outside of a few sub-classes that give extra skill or tool proficiencies they're not going to excel at non-combat activities in general, and will be outperformed by other party members on most of them. And it has nothing to do with being a "big dumb brute", it's about exhausting yourself to fight something in a frenzied rage; consider having a sit down afterwards.
But you aren't expending a resource, you are taking on progressively harder handicaps. It is fundamentally different from running out of uses of an ability, or else there would have been no reason to implement it in the first place.
Exhaustion is the absence of energy; you are spending energy to frenzy, that is what is causing you to become exhausted. Is that really so complicated?
A cleric or druid might have to burn a spell slot once or twice a session to undo those conditions (and they will need to for your other party members, unless you're all berserkers), but they won't have to assign spell slots by default to make your character capable of just using their class abilities unhindered.
Except that their options for removing Charmed or Frightened are not as good as the Berserker's innate ability, and some of the ones you've proposed may not work at all, as I've already pointed out, not to mention that the Cleric/Druid/Whatever themselves can be one of those that are Charmed or Frightened, while the Berserker can just carry on with the task of killing whatever Charmed or Frightened them.
If it's acceptable to spend spells on something that a Berserker doesn't need, then it's also acceptible to spend spells on something that they do; that's just party balance. If your party can't or won't do that, then you use Frenzied Rage a bit more sparingly, probably saving it for the big end boss of a dungeon or whatever, where one Frenzied Rage may be all that it takes, or you're not so bothered about gaining the worse exhaustion effects afterwards.
Its not a problem that a Battlemaster gets to take an attack that no one else has access to until level 14
It is when you're comparing it to the Berserker making an extra attack that no-one else has access to, which was supposedly your own point, which suddenly you're now ignoring.
And by your own admission, you aren't going to get to use frenzy for every fight, or even for most fights. So that battlemaster's damage is quickly going to snowball over frenzy
I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it). It's up to each Berserker player and their group to decide what they're willing to pay for sustained frenzy.
But again, the Fighter can't choose to use that bonus attack every turn, they're reliant on the enemy providing the necessary trigger (if the enemy doesn't miss, you never get it), and you can only do it six times per short rest at a maximum (a lot less earlier on). A Berserker, can freely choose to use their extra attack every turn for up to nine rounds, and if they need more (unusually long combat, or multiple combats with no time for short rests in between) then they can do it again, a Fighter can't.
What's more, a Fighter's bonus superiority damage is only slightly better than the damage that a Barbarian gets on every single attack (including the bonus ones), level differences between die/damage increases not withstanding.
Given that you are assuming you aren't going to be using that third attack most of the time, it comes out pretty far ahead.
No, you are assuming that, just as you're assuming that a dagger attack is going to come out "pretty far ahead". In a combat where the Berserker spends 100% of their time in a frenzy that dagger attack is meaningless by comparison, just as a long slog in which the Berserker chooses to never use their frenzy for some reason will cause them to come out miles behind.
The best time to use the Berserker's frenzy, assuming you make no effort to use it more often, is against big boss monsters, where you should easily be able to enact the former scenario, but that's not the only time you can use it. You can go for a frenzy sooner if the odds of a fight aren't good, you frenzy multiple times if you can mitigate it and so-on.
The magic item thing is a fair consideration, but its also a very random one. Your dm might throw out some gimmes to fit your class (in which case, I don't see why the dm would do that for a berserker, but not a battlerager), or it might be totally random and the best two handed magical weapon you find to fit your berserker is a +2 Great club.
The "gimme" for the Battlerager in that case would need to be two magic items over the Berserker's one, which was my point. If your DM needs to give you twice as many magic items then it's a difference between the two capabilities.
But we also must acknowledge that it triggers on hit, so there is no randomness to whether or not it will land if we assume the same hit rates for the two subclasses. Also, it adds an extra dice to critical hits. So the Zealot can do more consistent damage than a berserker who is not frenzied, will fall behind for a bit for the 27 attacks the first time the berserker ever rages to the third level of exhaustion, but then will pull back ahead as their crit rate and brutal critical continue to work at full force, and as the berserker begins forgoing frenzy.
You can't assume no randomness, because the only hit in a round could come from the Berserker's bonus attack that the Zealot didn't get. As I've already said as well, the Berserker has more chances to inflict their Brutal Critical. You're also purposefully only examining a scenario of prolonged sustained combat seemingly with no downtime of any kind; how typical do you imagine that to be?
You're also ignoring that sustained damage over a prolonged period doesn't make a sub-class "better", if the fight where you need more damage the most is the one that kills you. This is the fundamental difference between the sub-classes; a Berserker can do tonnes of damage at a progressively higher cost, or they can do less to do more when it's needed most, or their allies can help them mitigate the cost for the best of both. I'm not advocating for any one option, because having the option is what it is good.
Better average damage over a long period is less useful if 90% of that time is fighting mobs of Kobolds, but then you get to the dragon where every extra round it lasts is another round in which your party could be wiped out.
And because exhaustion is so slow to deal with without outside help, the berserker never gets to just use 2 frenzies in a row again and avoid the 3rd exhaustion level penalty without waiting multiple long rests first.
Again, you're quick to assume no outside help, yet on Charmed/Frightened outside help is perfectly fine to rely on. Please pick one.
It doesn't require "heavy meta-gaming"; just play the character. If it makes sense for them to go into a frenzy at a given moment then go into the frenzy. Barbarians are all about risk and taking punishment, if you're worrying about the cost of everything then you're not playing as a barbarian, you're playing as an accountant
Pretty ironic statement coming from the guy who keeps claiming that downside of frenzy is just a resource to be managed.
No it isn't; I'm talking about how the class is played, I'm not currently playing as it. It's perfectly fine to think about balance when picking out a class or when discussing its capabilities, but if one fits your intended theme better than another, then that's the one you should pick. If one action makes more sense in the moment than another, then that's the one you should take. If you're worrying about every trade-off for every risky feature while playing as a barbarian then you're not actually playing as one. You know, the exact thing that I actually said.
I can just go back to the widely agreed upon argument that being punished for using my subclass' abilities over the course of whole sessions is stupid.
But I'll watch and see if you publish that letter you must be working on writing to Wizards, the one where you say all barbarians need some kind of self-destruct mechanic, and that only the berserker is a real barbarian.
That's not an argument at all, that's an opinion, and people sharing that opinion doesn't make it right. Meanwhile asserting that I must want all classes to be limited in the same way has nothing to do with anything I've said.
All I've argued is why the Berserker is perfectly good at what it's supposed to be perfectly good at; if you can't handle a little Exhaustion in return for some Frenzied Rages, then don't play as a Berserker, it's not complicated.
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Two levels of Exhaustion sucks eggs!! The biggest issue I always see a Barb running into is they kill everything they can reach, and then have to truck halfway across the battlefield to get to anything else since none of their stuff works for thrown weapons. That’s why Barbarians get extra movement. But use your base core subclass feature more than once and it’s slowmo. 🤮
Javelins are Strength weapons; you don't get the bonus Rage damage but if you're happy to go Reckless you can lob them 120 feet quite happily, and in a Frenzy you can chuck three per turn (just make sure to buy more than the measly four you start out with).
This is also an effect that doesn't apply until after you finish your second Frenzied Rage. Plus Exhaustion doesn't happen in isolation unless you're completely alone; if you have party members with Greater Restoration they can eliminate exhaustion penalties, or if you get Haste then the speed penalty disappears, and that one gives you another attack for good measure while you're Frenzied (four attacks per turn with damage resistance and optional advantage anyone?), at lower levels Longstrider will do well enough (depends how your DM interprets the order the penalty and bonus apply in).
You can easily mitigate Exhaustion, or you can choose not to take it until you really need to, e.g- big boss fights, or a mixture of both.
As weapons (as opposed to ammunition) a PC can only draw one weapon as a free action on their turn. They would have to give up their entire action to draw a second javelin, meaning they could only throw at most 3 javelins every two turns.
And their Advantage from reckless is canceled past 30 ft., so not “happily.”
Okay, I forgot about technically needing to draw them (actual warriors that used javelins would have had a quiver for them, that's just an annoyance with the way D&D handles them, I'd expect to be able to get a concession from most DMs on that).
And yes happily; or would you rather have the disadvantage? The purpose of attacking with javelins is so you can maintain your Rage until you get back into melee range, I mean, only the attacking matters I suppose but I'd rather still hit something. Also if you're talking about ranges beyond 30 feet then having full movement wouldn't have got you into melee range either (slowed you'd have 20 feet + 30 feet short range, which is still more than a 40 foot unslowed movement).
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That doesn’t stop Berzerker from being one of the three worst subclasses in 5e down there with the Beastmaster Ranger and the Way of the Four Elements Monk.
Considering that in the thread where you attacked the Way of the Kensei Monk you flat out refused to factor in non-combat bonuses, making this argument here is a huge double standard.
Where did that come up in that thread? What non-combat aspect of Kensai has an effect as powerful as "you have disadvantage on all ability checks?"
Barbarians and Fighters are good at combat; outside of a few sub-classes that give extra skill or tool proficiencies they're not going to excel at non-combat activities in general, and will be outperformed by other party members on most of them. And it has nothing to do with being a "big dumb brute", it's about exhausting yourself to fight something in a frenzied rage; consider having a sit down afterwards.
Well dang, Im not demanding my barbarian have expertise. Just not having disadvantage on all abilitiy checks as the very least cost for using my level 3 ability.
Exhaustion is the absence of energy; you are spending energy to frenzy, that is what is causing you to become exhausted. Is that really so complicated?
I never said it was complicated, just excessively punishing compared to any other ability of any other class or subclass. Its too steep a price to be worthwhile (unless you just enjoy a challenge and want a handicap).
Except that their options for removing Charmed or Frightened are not as good as the Berserker's innate ability, and some of the ones you've proposed may not work at all, as I've already pointed out, not to mention that the Cleric/Druid/Whatever themselves can be one of those that are Charmed or Frightened, while the Berserker can just carry on with the task of killing whatever Charmed or Frightened them.
If it's acceptable to spend spells on something that a Berserker doesn't need, then it's also acceptible to spend spells on something that they do; that's just party balance. If your party can't or won't do that, then you use Frenzied Rage a bit more sparingly, probably saving it for the big end boss of a dungeon or whatever, where one Frenzied Rage may be all that it takes, or you're not so bothered about gaining the worse exhaustion effects afterwards.
The difference is that getting healed of a condition like fear/charm is a problem that comes from outside. Exhaustion is a problem your character causes themselves.
And the party question is just odd when we are considering frenzy anyways, because we could just say "well, if you're depending on a spellcaster to fix you, might as well be a better subclass and have someone cast haste on you."
It is when you're comparing it to the Berserker making an extra attack that no-one else has access to, which was supposedly your own point, which suddenly you're now ignoring.
But Berserker isn't the only one with access to a third attack. Fighters get it, any melee class can get it with haste cast on them, any one with two weapon fighting along with hex/hunters mark can do it along with similar damage. And none of them get anything like the downside that the Berserker gets. When they get spells cast on them, its to buff them or heal them or remove an effect that enemies gave them, not fix their own self-destruct button.
I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it).
That is bull. You already admitted that exhaustion is a limited resource, just like the battlemaster dice or spell slots. Eventually your character becomes more and more useless, and then dies.
No, you are assuming that, just as you're assuming that a dagger attack is going to come out "pretty far ahead". In a combat where the Berserker spends 100% of their time in a frenzy that dagger attack is meaningless by comparison, just as a long slog in which the Berserker chooses to never use their frenzy for some reason will cause them to come out miles behind.
Well dang, who told me that frenzy is a limited resource to be managed? Are you looking at a different phb, one where exhaustion doesn't impose disadvantage and then kill you?
If you only use frenzy enough to manage the exhaustion, you are only doing 9 extra attacks a long rest. If you have to depend on greater restoration, you are planning to make your spellcaster weaker by default by limiting what they can do, and even then you have to wait for them to have 5th level spell slots, hope they aren't forced to use them on something else, and on and on.
Or you can just kill your berserker. That would have the advantage of letting you roll up a new character with a less awful subclass like kensei.
You can't assume no randomness
Ok, lets just make up whatever then
As I've already said as well, the Berserker has more chances to inflict their Brutal Critical. You're also purposefully only examining a scenario of prolonged sustained combat seemingly with no downtime of any kind; how typical do you imagine that to be?
You assume the berserker does have more chances to inflict their brutal critical in the long run. If we ackowledge that exhaustion exists, then assuming 3-4 fights a session, then the berserker only uses their bonus attack 9 times, not use it at all to cool down exhaustion levels, or use it more than more but except that they will be using reckless attack just to avoid disadvantage. Check the math; a weaker bonus attack that is just used in every fight all the time in a session will lead to more damage overall.
The trade off is less damage overall for more damage in specific situations... which could be acceptable and balanced. But you are punished on top of that cumulatively, so that your chances of even getting to make that trade consistently are spoiled.
Again, you're quick to assume no outside help, yet on Charmed/Frightened outside help is perfectly fine to rely on. Please pick one.
Again, if we are talking outside help, haste is better than frenzy for cheaper. If you need charmed/frightened as often as you want to use frenzy, your dm is a jerk. But the point stands that with outside help other barbarian subclasses can be made better than the berserker for less cost, and without just fixing what they do to themselves. Without outside help, the berserker is just has 2 trash abilities.
Now you can keep saying charmed/frightened immunity makes up for half your subclass' abilities being bad in your mind. But that still means those two subclass abilities are bad. And to everyone else who plays dnd and sees 3rd level abilities as key because they're what you have to play with the longest, and it is the main feature of every class except berserker, apparently... well to most of us a bad ability is a bad ability.
It's perfectly fine to think about balance when picking out a class or when discussing its capabilities, but if one fits your intended theme better than another, then that's the one you should pick.
Maybe you want to thematically have a character who needs constant attention from a healer to fix what they do to themselves, or else just pretends not to have a subclass most of the time... but the jury is in, and most people agree it is a crap theme.
That's not an argument at all, that's an opinion, and people sharing that opinion doesn't make it right. Meanwhile asserting that I must want all classes to be limited in the same way has nothing to do with anything I've said.
I mean if we can't use stats, compare the costs for abilities, or be concerned for relative balance between classes... all thats left are opinions. You like berserker because you do. I and most other people don't, because of its mechanics. If the mechanics aren't a valid concern, then I don't know what you are concerned about.
That doesn’t stop Berzerker from being one of the three worst subclasses in 5e down there with the Beastmaster Ranger and the Way of the Four Elements Monk.
I don't agree with that at all, and honestly I think the idea that any class is "worst" is an incredibly narrow view to take; D&D is not a video game RPG where one slightly better stat determines whether you succeed or fail, it's a guided collaborative storytelling game that happens to have rules and dice rolling to give it some structure. The ultimate decider of whether something is good is if it's fun to play. I've played a Berserker before, and have a friend playing as one in my current main campaign, and neither of us have ever not had fun, or believe that we'd have had more fun as a different Barbarian sub-class, especially as none of the others were as good a fit for the particular characters.
In the rare cases that one character does lag behind the rest of their party, it can be as much about the rest of the party as the lagging character, and ultimately that's why you have a DM, because adventuring parties are hardly ever balanced, and most campaigns need adjusting to account for there being no Rogue, or more melee fighters than ranged, etc. If for some reason your group absolutely refuses to ever rest somewhere for more than a single day, then the DM can waive Exhaustion if they absolutely need to, but you shouldn't be in that kind of situation in the first place if you've got a good group and DM who remember that the point is to have fun.
The Berserker sub-class exists to let you be a high-risk rage monster that wood-chipper the big bad end monster, and it does that just fine; just as it can rage it's way around leaving multiple mobs of enemies as a red smear behind it if you're willing to take the penalty, or your party can help you out (which as I've already pointed out is actually very easy).
I've not heard anything that proves that the Berserker is "worse" than any other Barbarian, except for some people whining about why they don't like it, or refuse to play it, or that it's not the best Barbarian, whatever that's supposed to mean. I've not heard one reason why someone can't have fun playing as it, which is literally the entire point of any D&D class/sub-class. Maybe taking points of Exhaustion is a weird way to limit Frenzied Rage, but I actually like it because it's different; different is interesting, different presents new challenges, strategies and roleplay opportunities that make D&D what it is. All I see is a lot of people struggling to get their heads around how to manage Exhaustion when there are plenty of ways to do it, or you can just use a regular Rage some of the time, it's hardly rocket science.
I've shown why its features work just fine, and why the costs aren't what people make them out to be, and ultimately it's a sub-class of an already very good strong class. I very much doubt that there are many (if any) adventuring parties out there that are upset because their Barbarian isn't "the best" Barbarian as voted by some people on the internet.
The only class that has a serious mechanical issue IMO is the Beastmaster, but that's because of how the pet's attacks and scaling work, both easily fixable if someone really wants to play that character, but I don't believe for a second that that makes it the "worst" sub-class either; the majority of the rules are sound, and thematically it's awesome, same with the Ranger as a whole, widely regarded as a "weak" class, but they both do what they're supposed to, and while the likely UA/Tasha's tweaks will be welcome, you don't need them to enjoy playing as one.
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I can't even remember the last time one of my characters was feared or charmed. Keep on truckin' with the fact that frenzy /isn't/ somehow the meat and potatoes of zerks.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Then play a higher level campaign? It’s comments like these that don’t add anything to teach new players about the intricacies of the game beyond low levels. YMMV but don’t take such a limited viewpoint and push it in a thread without qualifying the limitations of the criticism.
I mean, Fear is the very first action of every single Adult Dragon in the game. Charm is the staple of 50% of all casters. In fact, Wisdom Saves is a primary save that either nullify you or turn you against allies.
I mean, sure - like I said, if you play exclusively 1-7 then yeah, immunities like that are underpowered because all you want is HP and resistances (hence why Bear Totem is front-end loaded). But then qualify that in your response at the very least.
Mindless Rage is a good class feature.
But it doesn't protect you if an opponent comes up and nails you with a fear or charm effect before you can act. And it doesn't make up for how underpowered Frenzy is.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
3rd lvl class abilities are the bread and butter of the subclasses.
The resistances aren’t bad, but you can get the same thing by standing next to a paladin, or getting a lesser restoration cast on you. If solving charm/fear is so powerful, I guess clerics, druids, paladins, and divine soul sorcerers are overpowered for taking care of it earlier than the berserker, without it being their main class feature?
Using 4 frenzies a long rest will quickly kill your berserker, especially if any circumstance causes you to take exhaustion aside from that. And after 3, it defeats the purpose anyway. What good are 3 attacks if two have to be made at disadvantage?
meanwhile, other barbs have consistently greater damage/damage reduction every fight with no downsides, from 3-20.
It’s just too punishing against actually using the main class ability. And not using it just makes your barb subpar mechanically. There is a reason Wizards hasn’t implemented this kind of self-neutering resource for any other class or subclass.
Neither Charmed or Frightened prevents you from raging and immediately negating those effects, and most things that inflict them don't last longer than a full length Rage anyway.
You don't need to use Frenzied Rage all the time, just as plenty of other classes have features that are limited in some way which is why you don't just burn through them all first chance you get. Managing the exhaustion is the trade off for getting 100-50% more two-handed attacks than any other Barbarian during your own turn (and that's on top of the 14th level reaction attack that can bring you to 3-4 per round). And since you're keen on pointing out that other party members can negate things, then surely Exhaustion isn't a concern when a Cleric can get rid of it for you?
Could the Berserker do with an extra minor sweetener at 3rd level? Probably. But it's not a bad sub-class at all, as you can put out more attacks than any other Barbarian, even competing with a Fighter on that basis, while taking half damage and giving yourself advantage whenever you want it.
I'm starting to think that the unifying factor between the sub-classes that you don't like is that you don't know how to play any of them. 😝
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My bad. But Calm Emotions or Dispel Magic can practically do the same thing. And if your party is really that worried about charm/frightened in their campaign, especially if the main concern is at higher levels, then 100 gold and a 5th level spell slot is still cheaper than an entire subclass's main ability.
Again, as Berserker exists, its their best feature. If we are focused on doing what a role ought to do, dealing more damage or tanking more damage all the time without punishment or even really finite resources seems to be what all other Barbs do (assuming you aren't in a campaign where you can realistically use up all your rages anyways).
Its not just a resource mechanic though. If it said "you can use Frenzy x times a long rest" it would be, just like numerous other class' features. But it actively includes a passive punishment as well.
But the idea of comparing it to other class features is instructive. If you use a frenzied rage, you get 9 bonus action attacks out of it. Do other class's features do similar things? Kind of, yes. The battlemaster fighter gets a guarenteed damage boost to many of their attacks, gets access to another attack per round via riposte, and then also get a third and fourth attack just for being a fighter.
But maybe fighters aren't a fair comparison, so what about other barbarian classes? Battlerager barbarian basically gets a free dagger attack every round while raging, no punishment mechanic or resource requirement. And the difference between that and whatever weapon the Berserker will be using won't be very large, since the Berserker isn't likely to great weapon fighting.
The storm herald can do the equivalent of a free cantrip attack every turn. The Zealot gets a damage boost to one of their hits that brings them to about the same mathematical average as the Berserker's 3 attacks for free, and also gets to reroll a failed saving throw once per rage, which isn't as good as outright immunity to frighten/charm, but still offers some protection from that for free.
We can go round and round on this, but the question here really isn't "is mindless rage worth nerfing frenzy." The real question is "why does frenzy need to be nerfed at all?"
I like Berserker as a multi-class option. But the idea of playing a subclass that, from levels 3-13, I could go entire sessions without using any of its features, just sounds abysmal. Even Frenzy would depend on heavy meta-gaming to use, with my eye on how much time is left in the session rather than "would Grok push his limits now? Would this be cool?" And worse, if I pick up levels of exhaustion, I passively suffer through that for multiple sessions. So I could go multiple sessions without using the subclass features at all, but still fail every roleplay related ability check due to disadvantage.
There is a place for Berserker as it is, but it could just be better without breaking anything.
Calm Emotions requires another of your party members to cast a 2nd level spell requiring concentration to continue suppressing the Frightened effect, so it's no use if your turn comes up first, and stops them from being able to use any other concentration spell, as well as burning one of their slots. Dispel Magic meanwhile is a 3rd level spell that only works if the charmed/frightened condition was triggered by another spell, meaning it won't work against many monster abilities (probably the most likely way to become Frightened).
A Berserker can simply choose not to be Charmed or Frightened by Raging, which is something they usually want to be doing anyway. Not only does it eliminate two potentially very debilitating conditions, it does so without requiring your party to do it for you (if they even can). No idea why you're so determined to hate a feature that is actually very good.
If you're assuming a campaign where using up Rages isn't an issue, then why are you so adamant that Exhaustion is a problem? One level of exhaustion doesn't matter to a Barbarian as you're unlikely to be the main character handling skill checks, and during combat the only checks are for things like grappling and shoving, with Rage cancelling out the penalty anyway. Don't like that, then don't grapple or shove, just axe! Second level of Exhaustion is half speed, which is annoying, but for a front-line fighter that doesn't usually need to move around a lot once they're stuck in it's not a major problem either.
It's only the third level by which exhaustion is a serious penalty (disadvantage on attacks and saving throws), but that's only a problem after you've completed your third Frenzied Rage, if you've got a fourth Rage in you, you can cancel out the disadvantage with reckless attacks. In the meantime you've had up to 27 bonus attacks.
That "passive punishment" is the resource mechanic; the limit on your number of uses is how many points of Exhaustion you're willing to take. For most the limit is probably two (up to 18 bonus attacks), you might stretch to three if you're anticipating a long rest soon after. But hell, you can do it six times if you really want to and don't mind having to be brought back to life afterwards; in a desperate enough situation that may be preferable to the entire party being killed.
You're quick to dismiss Charmed/Frightened immunity on the basis that spells can also remove them; but spells can also remove Exhaustion (the same spell in particular in fact, in the case of Greater Restoration). If the rule applies to one, then it must apply to the other.
The problem with the comparison is that those Riposte attacks use you reaction, and the maximum you can make is six per short rest. A Berserker who uses Frenzied Rage once can get their bonus attack up to nine times with no other prerequisite for them being able to get it (no reaction trigger). At 14th level the Berserker also gets a free Riposte every single turn. And this is all on top of the extra damage and damage reductions that Barbarians get a standard. So the Fighter can some of the time get more attacks at certain levels and using a finite resource, it's not until they hit 20th that they consistently have more, but at that level the Barbarian has +4 Strength and Constitution instead.
A dagger does 1d4 damage, compared to 1d12 or 2d6 for a two-handed weapon; and that's assuming you never gain any better equipment during a campaign. A Berserker only needs to improve one weapon to increase the damage of all of their attacks, including the bonus ones.
You're comparing a weak area of effect to single target damage; a Berserker's extra attack can deal 1d12 or 2d6 + Strength modifier + Rage damage on a hit, so 11.5 to 13 by 10th level, assuming no magical weapon and a +3 or +4 STR. A Storm Herald's aura is only doing 4 or ~7 (assuming no saves). The Storm Herald is great for mobs of enemies, but it's doing less bonus damage against a single target, and you've got to take care not to harm allies (though again, not a tonne of damage).
And that's not even factoring in the increased damage from a Barbarian's Brutal Criticals (more attacks means more chances of actually scoring one).
Not really, by 10th level it's 1d6+5, so an average of 8.5. It maxes out at 1d6+10, by which point the Berserker's extra attack will be doing about ~18 damage per hit (7 for the weapon +7 for Strength modifier +4 for Rage), again assuming no magic weapons or other bonuses. I like the Zealot, but the main benefit of their bonus damage IMO is that it has an elemental type so might hurt something your regular damage won't, but that's very situational.
It doesn't require "heavy meta-gaming"; just play the character. If it makes sense for them to go into a frenzy at a given moment then go into the frenzy. Barbarians are all about risk and taking punishment, if you're worrying about the cost of everything then you're not playing as a barbarian, you're playing as an accountant. 😝
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Two levels of Exhaustion sucks eggs!! The biggest issue I always see a Barb running into is they kill everything they can reach, and then have to truck halfway across the battlefield to get to anything else since none of their stuff works for thrown weapons. That’s why Barbarians get extra movement. But use your base core subclass feature more than once and it’s slowmo. 🤮
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Which kills your rage if you're under level 15.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Javelins are Strength weapons; you don't get the bonus Rage damage but if you're happy to go Reckless you can lob them 120 feet quite happily, and in a Frenzy you can chuck three per turn (just make sure to buy more than the measly four you start out with).
This is also an effect that doesn't apply until after you finish your second Frenzied Rage. Plus Exhaustion doesn't happen in isolation unless you're completely alone; if you have party members with Greater Restoration they can eliminate exhaustion penalties, or if you get Haste then the speed penalty disappears, and that one gives you another attack for good measure while you're Frenzied (four attacks per turn with damage resistance and optional advantage anyone?), at lower levels Longstrider will do well enough (depends how your DM interprets the order the penalty and bonus apply in).
You can easily mitigate Exhaustion, or you can choose not to take it until you really need to, e.g- big boss fights, or a mixture of both.
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You don't see how that really shoe horns your into "big dumb brute" way harder than even being a barbarian requires to begin with? No other subclass hurts your roleplay for using its features.
But you aren't expending a resource, you are taking on progressively harder handicaps. It is fundamentally different from running out of uses of an ability, or else there would have been no reason to implement it in the first place.
First off, how many times do I have to say that charmed/frightened immunity is great? Go start a thread asking that question if you want to argue it. Or maybe ask if that and the 14th level abilities are good enough as an entire subclass, if that is what you want to argue.
But while exhaustion is a constantly building onus if you use your class ability, charmed/frightened can be handled without being the entire main ability of your class. A cleric or druid might have to burn a spell slot once or twice a session to undo those conditions (and they will need to for your other party members, unless you're all berserkers), but they won't have to assign spell slots by default to make your character capable of just using their class abilities unhindered.
Its not a problem that a Battlemaster gets to take an attack that no one else has access to until level 14, using a reaction that might well otherwise go unused, and that gets extra damage on top. And exhaustion will come into the picture at some point, meaning that at that second level, your bastard of a dm who throws charmed/frightened at you enough for immunity to that condition to be your main subclass ability for 8 levels will send out critters that can kite your reduced speed. And even if the dm is charitable, at the third level of exhaustion you are giving every enemy advantage in their attacks against you.
And by your own admission, you aren't going to get to use frenzy for every fight, or even for most fights. So that battlemaster's damage is quickly going to snowball over frenzy.
Given that you are assuming you aren't going to be using that third attack most of the time, it comes out pretty far ahead. Also, a d4+rage bonus+strength only means missing out an average of 4 damage, maybe a bit more if you factor in crits. And thats before taking into account that the battlerager can always benefit from reckless attack fully, never having to use it to counteract the punishment from their other subclass abilities.
If frenzy had some normal resource cap like half your rages per long rest instead of a punishment mechanic, it would be pretty balanced.
The magic item thing is a fair consideration, but its also a very random one. Your dm might throw out some gimmes to fit your class (in which case, I don't see why the dm would do that for a berserker, but not a battlerager), or it might be totally random and the best two handed magical weapon you find to fit your berserker is a +2 Great club.
All of this assumes the Berserker gets to use their frenzied attacks anywhere near enough to cover over an ability that can almost always be used, and that the storm herald's two reckless attacks that are never depended upon for countering exhaustion do not rack up more damage by default in the form of more hits and more crits.
The brutal criticals go both ways in this case: if you are managing frenzy by using it less or by accepting levels of exhaustion, then you aren't consistently making third attacks, or else you aren't making as many attacks at advantage. Either way nets you the same number of critical hits or less, but without a free aoe damage or single target cantrip attack equivalent.
But we also must acknowledge that it triggers on hit, so there is no randomness to whether or not it will land if we assume the same hit rates for the two subclasses. Also, it adds an extra dice to critical hits. So the Zealot can do more consistent damage than a berserker who is not frenzied, will fall behind for a bit for the 27 attacks the first time the berserker ever rages to the third level of exhaustion, but then will pull back ahead as their crit rate and brutal critical continue to work at full force, and as the berserker begins forgoing frenzy. And because exhaustion is so slow to deal with without outside help, the berserker never gets to just use 2 frenzies in a row again and avoid the 3rd exhaustion level penalty without waiting multiple long rests first.
Pretty ironic statement coming from the guy who keeps claiming that downside of frenzy is just a resource to be managed, and the class totally pulls ahead on balance because its 6th level feature makes up for it. If thats the issue, we're both accountants at this point, and throwing aside all the math, I can just go back to the widely agreed upon argument that being punished for using my subclass' abilities over the course of whole sessions is stupid.
But I'll watch and see if you publish that letter you must be working on writing to Wizards, the one where you say all barbarians need some kind of self-destruct mechanic, and that only the berserker is a real barbarian.
You know, I also didn't even consider how frenzy's exhaustion threat can also hurt your 14th level ability too, screwing with its chance to hit if you get to three levels of exhaustion. Meaning that using your first subclass ability also hurts your capstone subclass ability.
It just completely trips over itself.
Pretty much. The extra attack is pretty much not worth giving up everything you can get out of another subclass, with no penalties. Berserker would be in a good place if Frenzy didn't suck. But it does, and it drags the rest of berserker down with it. Berserkers are iconic, and I'd love to play one, but not with these mechanics.
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Tasha
Yeah. still could be kind of fun to play with as a kind of challenge (how can I make this work)? Its not as if the world is an objectively worse place for it existing. It just could be more fun on its own merits.
As weapons (as opposed to ammunition) a PC can only draw one weapon as a free action on their turn. They would have to give up their entire action to draw a second javelin, meaning they could only throw at most 3 javelins every two turns.
And their Advantage from reckless is canceled past 30 ft., so not “happily.”
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Considering that in the thread where you attacked the Way of the Kensei Monk you flat out refused to factor in non-combat bonuses, making this argument here is a huge double standard.
Barbarians and Fighters are good at combat; outside of a few sub-classes that give extra skill or tool proficiencies they're not going to excel at non-combat activities in general, and will be outperformed by other party members on most of them. And it has nothing to do with being a "big dumb brute", it's about exhausting yourself to fight something in a frenzied rage; consider having a sit down afterwards.
Exhaustion is the absence of energy; you are spending energy to frenzy, that is what is causing you to become exhausted. Is that really so complicated?
At least as many times as you've criticised the class for having it, as it can't be both simultaneously a great feature and yet worthless to have.
Except that their options for removing Charmed or Frightened are not as good as the Berserker's innate ability, and some of the ones you've proposed may not work at all, as I've already pointed out, not to mention that the Cleric/Druid/Whatever themselves can be one of those that are Charmed or Frightened, while the Berserker can just carry on with the task of killing whatever Charmed or Frightened them.
If it's acceptable to spend spells on something that a Berserker doesn't need, then it's also acceptible to spend spells on something that they do; that's just party balance. If your party can't or won't do that, then you use Frenzied Rage a bit more sparingly, probably saving it for the big end boss of a dungeon or whatever, where one Frenzied Rage may be all that it takes, or you're not so bothered about gaining the worse exhaustion effects afterwards.
It is when you're comparing it to the Berserker making an extra attack that no-one else has access to, which was supposedly your own point, which suddenly you're now ignoring.
I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it). It's up to each Berserker player and their group to decide what they're willing to pay for sustained frenzy.
But again, the Fighter can't choose to use that bonus attack every turn, they're reliant on the enemy providing the necessary trigger (if the enemy doesn't miss, you never get it), and you can only do it six times per short rest at a maximum (a lot less earlier on). A Berserker, can freely choose to use their extra attack every turn for up to nine rounds, and if they need more (unusually long combat, or multiple combats with no time for short rests in between) then they can do it again, a Fighter can't.
What's more, a Fighter's bonus superiority damage is only slightly better than the damage that a Barbarian gets on every single attack (including the bonus ones), level differences between die/damage increases not withstanding.
No, you are assuming that, just as you're assuming that a dagger attack is going to come out "pretty far ahead". In a combat where the Berserker spends 100% of their time in a frenzy that dagger attack is meaningless by comparison, just as a long slog in which the Berserker chooses to never use their frenzy for some reason will cause them to come out miles behind.
The best time to use the Berserker's frenzy, assuming you make no effort to use it more often, is against big boss monsters, where you should easily be able to enact the former scenario, but that's not the only time you can use it. You can go for a frenzy sooner if the odds of a fight aren't good, you frenzy multiple times if you can mitigate it and so-on.
The "gimme" for the Battlerager in that case would need to be two magic items over the Berserker's one, which was my point. If your DM needs to give you twice as many magic items then it's a difference between the two capabilities.
You can't assume no randomness, because the only hit in a round could come from the Berserker's bonus attack that the Zealot didn't get. As I've already said as well, the Berserker has more chances to inflict their Brutal Critical. You're also purposefully only examining a scenario of prolonged sustained combat seemingly with no downtime of any kind; how typical do you imagine that to be?
You're also ignoring that sustained damage over a prolonged period doesn't make a sub-class "better", if the fight where you need more damage the most is the one that kills you. This is the fundamental difference between the sub-classes; a Berserker can do tonnes of damage at a progressively higher cost, or they can do less to do more when it's needed most, or their allies can help them mitigate the cost for the best of both. I'm not advocating for any one option, because having the option is what it is good.
Better average damage over a long period is less useful if 90% of that time is fighting mobs of Kobolds, but then you get to the dragon where every extra round it lasts is another round in which your party could be wiped out.
Again, you're quick to assume no outside help, yet on Charmed/Frightened outside help is perfectly fine to rely on. Please pick one.
No it isn't; I'm talking about how the class is played, I'm not currently playing as it. It's perfectly fine to think about balance when picking out a class or when discussing its capabilities, but if one fits your intended theme better than another, then that's the one you should pick. If one action makes more sense in the moment than another, then that's the one you should take. If you're worrying about every trade-off for every risky feature while playing as a barbarian then you're not actually playing as one. You know, the exact thing that I actually said.
That's not an argument at all, that's an opinion, and people sharing that opinion doesn't make it right. Meanwhile asserting that I must want all classes to be limited in the same way has nothing to do with anything I've said.
All I've argued is why the Berserker is perfectly good at what it's supposed to be perfectly good at; if you can't handle a little Exhaustion in return for some Frenzied Rages, then don't play as a Berserker, it's not complicated.
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Okay, I forgot about technically needing to draw them (actual warriors that used javelins would have had a quiver for them, that's just an annoyance with the way D&D handles them, I'd expect to be able to get a concession from most DMs on that).
And yes happily; or would you rather have the disadvantage? The purpose of attacking with javelins is so you can maintain your Rage until you get back into melee range, I mean, only the attacking matters I suppose but I'd rather still hit something. Also if you're talking about ranges beyond 30 feet then having full movement wouldn't have got you into melee range either (slowed you'd have 20 feet + 30 feet short range, which is still more than a 40 foot unslowed movement).
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That doesn’t stop Berzerker from being one of the three worst subclasses in 5e down there with the Beastmaster Ranger and the Way of the Four Elements Monk.
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Where did that come up in that thread? What non-combat aspect of Kensai has an effect as powerful as "you have disadvantage on all ability checks?"
Well dang, Im not demanding my barbarian have expertise. Just not having disadvantage on all abilitiy checks as the very least cost for using my level 3 ability.
I never said it was complicated, just excessively punishing compared to any other ability of any other class or subclass. Its too steep a price to be worthwhile (unless you just enjoy a challenge and want a handicap).
The difference is that getting healed of a condition like fear/charm is a problem that comes from outside. Exhaustion is a problem your character causes themselves.
And the party question is just odd when we are considering frenzy anyways, because we could just say "well, if you're depending on a spellcaster to fix you, might as well be a better subclass and have someone cast haste on you."
But Berserker isn't the only one with access to a third attack. Fighters get it, any melee class can get it with haste cast on them, any one with two weapon fighting along with hex/hunters mark can do it along with similar damage. And none of them get anything like the downside that the Berserker gets. When they get spells cast on them, its to buff them or heal them or remove an effect that enemies gave them, not fix their own self-destruct button.
That is bull. You already admitted that exhaustion is a limited resource, just like the battlemaster dice or spell slots. Eventually your character becomes more and more useless, and then dies.
Well dang, who told me that frenzy is a limited resource to be managed? Are you looking at a different phb, one where exhaustion doesn't impose disadvantage and then kill you?
If you only use frenzy enough to manage the exhaustion, you are only doing 9 extra attacks a long rest. If you have to depend on greater restoration, you are planning to make your spellcaster weaker by default by limiting what they can do, and even then you have to wait for them to have 5th level spell slots, hope they aren't forced to use them on something else, and on and on.
Or you can just kill your berserker. That would have the advantage of letting you roll up a new character with a less awful subclass like kensei.
Ok, lets just make up whatever then
You assume the berserker does have more chances to inflict their brutal critical in the long run. If we ackowledge that exhaustion exists, then assuming 3-4 fights a session, then the berserker only uses their bonus attack 9 times, not use it at all to cool down exhaustion levels, or use it more than more but except that they will be using reckless attack just to avoid disadvantage. Check the math; a weaker bonus attack that is just used in every fight all the time in a session will lead to more damage overall.
The trade off is less damage overall for more damage in specific situations... which could be acceptable and balanced. But you are punished on top of that cumulatively, so that your chances of even getting to make that trade consistently are spoiled.
Again, if we are talking outside help, haste is better than frenzy for cheaper. If you need charmed/frightened as often as you want to use frenzy, your dm is a jerk. But the point stands that with outside help other barbarian subclasses can be made better than the berserker for less cost, and without just fixing what they do to themselves. Without outside help, the berserker is just has 2 trash abilities.
Now you can keep saying charmed/frightened immunity makes up for half your subclass' abilities being bad in your mind. But that still means those two subclass abilities are bad. And to everyone else who plays dnd and sees 3rd level abilities as key because they're what you have to play with the longest, and it is the main feature of every class except berserker, apparently... well to most of us a bad ability is a bad ability.
Maybe you want to thematically have a character who needs constant attention from a healer to fix what they do to themselves, or else just pretends not to have a subclass most of the time... but the jury is in, and most people agree it is a crap theme.
I mean if we can't use stats, compare the costs for abilities, or be concerned for relative balance between classes... all thats left are opinions. You like berserker because you do. I and most other people don't, because of its mechanics. If the mechanics aren't a valid concern, then I don't know what you are concerned about.
I don't agree with that at all, and honestly I think the idea that any class is "worst" is an incredibly narrow view to take; D&D is not a video game RPG where one slightly better stat determines whether you succeed or fail, it's a guided collaborative storytelling game that happens to have rules and dice rolling to give it some structure. The ultimate decider of whether something is good is if it's fun to play. I've played a Berserker before, and have a friend playing as one in my current main campaign, and neither of us have ever not had fun, or believe that we'd have had more fun as a different Barbarian sub-class, especially as none of the others were as good a fit for the particular characters.
In the rare cases that one character does lag behind the rest of their party, it can be as much about the rest of the party as the lagging character, and ultimately that's why you have a DM, because adventuring parties are hardly ever balanced, and most campaigns need adjusting to account for there being no Rogue, or more melee fighters than ranged, etc. If for some reason your group absolutely refuses to ever rest somewhere for more than a single day, then the DM can waive Exhaustion if they absolutely need to, but you shouldn't be in that kind of situation in the first place if you've got a good group and DM who remember that the point is to have fun.
The Berserker sub-class exists to let you be a high-risk rage monster that wood-chipper the big bad end monster, and it does that just fine; just as it can rage it's way around leaving multiple mobs of enemies as a red smear behind it if you're willing to take the penalty, or your party can help you out (which as I've already pointed out is actually very easy).
I've not heard anything that proves that the Berserker is "worse" than any other Barbarian, except for some people whining about why they don't like it, or refuse to play it, or that it's not the best Barbarian, whatever that's supposed to mean. I've not heard one reason why someone can't have fun playing as it, which is literally the entire point of any D&D class/sub-class. Maybe taking points of Exhaustion is a weird way to limit Frenzied Rage, but I actually like it because it's different; different is interesting, different presents new challenges, strategies and roleplay opportunities that make D&D what it is. All I see is a lot of people struggling to get their heads around how to manage Exhaustion when there are plenty of ways to do it, or you can just use a regular Rage some of the time, it's hardly rocket science.
I've shown why its features work just fine, and why the costs aren't what people make them out to be, and ultimately it's a sub-class of an already very good strong class. I very much doubt that there are many (if any) adventuring parties out there that are upset because their Barbarian isn't "the best" Barbarian as voted by some people on the internet.
The only class that has a serious mechanical issue IMO is the Beastmaster, but that's because of how the pet's attacks and scaling work, both easily fixable if someone really wants to play that character, but I don't believe for a second that that makes it the "worst" sub-class either; the majority of the rules are sound, and thematically it's awesome, same with the Ranger as a whole, widely regarded as a "weak" class, but they both do what they're supposed to, and while the likely UA/Tasha's tweaks will be welcome, you don't need them to enjoy playing as one.
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