I imagine it came down to Battlerager not being popular enough to worry about, particularly since there were no balance changes to the subclass. Bladesinger had some balance changes (bladesong changed, attack action changed). Removing the elf only restriction /likely/ only happened because of the other changes to the bladesinger class.
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Yeah it really feels like a popularity thing. If battlerager was iconic like the bladesinger it would have gotten some love. Would have liked to see that happen.
I have ranted about this alot to my friends, but wizards just has a hard on for elves cause of LOTR. Alot of people in fantasy think elves are the best, and LOTR is a lot of peoples first introduction into elves. Elves in LOTR are a super awsome race with no flaws and they smarter and not bad like others. LOTR is amazing but a lot of people took this idea of elves and ran, like with the whole alpha wolf thig.
Now a lot of people like that kind of elf, so companies push out that kind of elf in their fantasy stuff cause the fans like it. Its just a popularity contest, and elves win alot, so they make more elf stuff to meet demand and it snowballs. Elfs and half elfs are some of the strongest races in PHB, and bladsinger is pretty strong as a wizard subclass. Not in the sense of nuke power but it takes the weaknesses of wizard and removes them. No one complains cause elves are super cool, so they make more elf stuff.
Dwarves are my favorite race, and battle rager had potential, but the subclass is useless. There is a couple races in the PHB that have gotten almost no new subrace while elves and tiefling have gotten like 6.
I would have hoped they redid it in tashas, but they just made bladesinger stronger.
All in all, sorry for the rant but dwarves just don't win the popularity contest or the meta one.
Don't apologize! That's why I created this thread. Welcome home lol
I can't stand how much elves are the golden child of fantasy. I don't hate them or anything, I just think the attention is...basic.
I really like your point about the "awesome-at-everything-race" image of elves. Not sure if you're an MTG player, but I loved the elves from Lorwyn. They were lawful evil and hunted anything they believed were not "beautiful". They terraformed land to an obsessive level. It gave such a great sinister quality to them.
It's also no secret that all of these racially based changes in 5e started being talked about during a summer full of civil unrest around racial inequality. I find it hilarious that the battlerager was just left out when they managed to make sure no race had any bad stats or negative connotations. The bladesinger racial restriction change was absolutely a part of this ideological shift, and got the benefit of a power boost along the way. But the battlerager? oops I guess.
I was really hoping to find the battlerager in Tasha's when I heard about the bladesinger. Not just because I love dwarves, but because it's a cool subclass concept with terrible execution.
I have tried to rewrite Battlerager a few times for my own use. I think it would be a great subclass to focus on grapples/shoves for a really physical, hurl-yourself-at-an-enemy feel.
I replaced the lame 3 damage grapple, made it 1d4+STR, and applied it to Shove also. The bonus action you get while raging is no longer an attack but a grapple or shove, or applying STR mod damage to a creature already grappled. If you have magic spiked armor, the damage counts as magical. And for the charge feature, you need to be running towards an enemy.
At higher levels when you make a successful grapple attempt on a creature too large to normally grapple, you instead grab on to it and follow the Climb on to a Bigger Creature variant rules in the DMG.
So far I have only played it at level 3 but it was pretty fun and had a distinctive feel to it.
My only complaint is that makes the amazing battlerager 3/monk of four elements X build not able to maintain rage anymore. I need my barbarian blaster. lol
But really, amazing ideas. I'm going to take note of that.
Second, though barbarians are about as commonly played as wizards, Wizards of the Coast has a strong bias towards giving the Wizard class all of the cool things, proven by how awfully designed sorcerers are.
Third, battleragers are one of the worst designed subclasses in all of 5e, competing with the Purple Dragon Knight Fighter, Four Elements Monks, and Undying Warlocks (three of these 4 subclasses are from the SCAG). It is so badly designed that it is nearly unplayable.
The battlerager certainly could have used a tune up like the bladesinger got. Is this just a matter of subclass popularity like I think it is?
It definitely could use a boost, but WotC does not like changing official content. They may have done it with the Bladesinger, but are still hesitant about doing it in the future.
Anyone else annoyed at the lack of consistency?
Yes, I'm annoyed, but I'm starting to get used to WotC's lack of consistency.
I think it's more that elves and wizards are the crippling pets of fantasy fiction as a whole. They're part of the public image of fantasy, so they get nice things to maintain that image. Dwarves are rarely depicted in a favorable light, but usually have a personality of "hates elves" as their defining trait. And other than Conan, Barbarians don't get the best rep ever. They are seen in stereotype as brutes ruled solely by their rage.
But for the Battlerager in particular? Part of it is the mix of Dwarf and Barbarian, but I think a lot of it is that the mechanics and lore are practically alien to the concept of the Barbarian. The image is of a lightly armored person with a club, greatsword, or axe charging down a horde of foes. Not a guy who looks like an evil overlord in full plate armor trying to suplex people with armor spikes. Even the word Battlerager is confusing redundant language in the context of the Barbarian. We know a Barbarian wades into battle and rages hard, but Battlerager just describes the simple job without cluing in the player into what is special about the subclass.
It definitely could use a boost, but WotC does not like changing official content. They may have done it with the Bladesinger, but are still hesitant about doing it in the future.
Other than lifting the racial requirement (which isn't really much of a change since it's a "your DM can waive this" thing already) does the official content actually need to be changed much?
IMO the basic mechanics work okay; you could solve a lot of problems just by adding upgraded forms of Spiked Armour, e.g- Spiked Armour, +1 would be 15+DEX(max 2) armour and increases the damage of all Battlerager features by +1.
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Wizards of the Coast has a strong bias towards giving the Wizard class all of the cool things
This. There seems a strong bias towards casters in general, and wizards in particular, throughout the game. Martial characters seem to be just considered "meat bags who do the grunt work for our cool wizards".
It definitely could use a boost, but WotC does not like changing official content. They may have done it with the Bladesinger, but are still hesitant about doing it in the future.
Other than lifting the racial requirement (which isn't really much of a change since it's a "your DM can waive this" thing already) does the official content actually need to be changed much?
IMO the basic mechanics work okay; you could solve a lot of problems just by adding upgraded forms of Spiked Armour, e.g- Spiked Armour, +1 would be 15+DEX(max 2) armour and increases the damage of all Battlerager features by +1.
Have you played one or played in a campaign with one? If not, I recommend trying one for a bit. They're really, really bad.
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Spiked Armor has a medium armoured AC that's only surpassed by Half Plate. It gives you access to a bonus action attack equivalent to a dagger; not the highest damage, but it's also a full extra attack so can deal more damage than a Zealot's Divine Fury at lower levels as you still add your Strength modifier and Rage bonus, and being a full attack means it has the chance to deal damage when other attacks don't (a Zealot that misses twice deals zero damage, a Battlerager that misses twice then hits still deals at least some damage) although the reverse is also true (could miss while your other attacks hit in which case the Zealot would get the bonus while you don't) so it balances out roughly.
The fact it also lets you deal damage (even a piddling amount) when initiating a grapple is a bonus as well, as you normally don't, and this encourages you to grapple more which is never a bad thing as Barbarian players really should grapple more, since Rage gives you advantage. You also deal this bonus damage when you're not raging, making this one of the few Barbarian sub-classes that can do more damage outside of a Rage.
At 6th level you gain temporary HP whenever you use Reckless Attack; again it's not much, but it does add up. For example, if your Constitution is +3 and you Reckless Attack five times, that's 15 extra damage you could take without touching your own HP. If you can squeeze ten Reckless Attacks into an adventuring day with Constitution +4 then it's 40 extra and so-on. It scales with your ability to attack recklessly while raging, so it scales up with rage uses as well as Constitution. For comparison, a Guardian Armorer Artificer gets temp HP based on level with proficiency maximum uses, so you can pull up a bigger boost at once, but fewer times, and on a class with fewer hit points and no built in resistance, and it requires your bonus action. They're different but I don't think Battlerager stacks up unfavourably at all. If you manage to be one of those rare few who get to the Barbarian's 20th level capstone, you could have an augmented CON of +7 and Rage continuously for 24 hours, attacking recklessly the entire time for a potential total boost of 100,800 temp. HP. 😄
Bonus Action Dash at 10th level is okay, especially if it helps you squeeze more reckless attacks and grapples into a rage when you run out of enemies in range, as dashing with a bonus action means you can still attack afterwards, or double dash for triple speed. It's actually not bad compared to other Barbarian 10th level abilities; a Zealot's Zealous Presence is probably the best of the bunch for raw combat (advantage on attacks and saving throws for up to ten creatures within 60 feet for one round), but it's only once per long rest, so I think it's okay overall.
The 14th level feature, if you get that far, is just great; yes it's only a small amount of damage but its in response to every single melee attack that hits you, so it's more damage on top of the pretty reliable damage you should be putting out already, and it all adds up.
It's basically a whole mess of chip damage and drips of temp. HP, but it all adds up. It can favour a different play-style to other Barbarian sub-classes, for example taking Grappler or Sentinel for more control rather than Great Weapon Master for raw damage. Though, nothing stops you from grabbing a greataxe and ignoring grapples for the -5 to hit for +10 damage feature (which you'll be attacking recklessly for and gaining temp. HP every time as a result), and since the GWM bonus action attack doesn't trigger all the time you can still use the spike attack the rest of the time.
Mechanically it's okay; not the most exciting in those terms, but if it fits your theme then that doesn't matter much as the fun of a character is dependent on the player more than anything. I think it's also worth remembering that it's still a Barbarian, which is a very solid base class; you still get Rage, Reckless Attack etc., and you're getting reliable boosts on top of that.
Again I think the main issue is that +N versions of Spike Armor should really boost its damage as well, as otherwise the spikes don't scale with the other weapons you might use. This would push it ahead of its normal scaling (which is otherwise similar to Divine Fury on a Zealot after starting out ahead) and make the spike damage magical to bypass those pesky resistances. It might be nice to get an extra skill and/or tool proficiency on it though; smith's tools being the obvious one if you're raging about in an uncommon style of armour that is definitely going to get tarnished.
As for whether I've played it; personally no, but a friend did during a 10th level one-shot and never had any major complaints. They took a warhammer so they could still grapple and wear down enemies, I don't remember if they took Grappler or not (I feel like they did but I forget, it was a while ago); they had fun with it while I was f'ing up all the spell-casting on the generic Wizard I brought to the party.
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All in all, sorry for the rant but dwarves just don't win the popularity contest or the meta one.
That's why post tasha's dwarves make better wizards (or any other caster) than elves, right?
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Spiked Armor has a medium armoured AC that's only surpassed by Half Plate.
And on par with two other types of medium armor. Any barbarian with high enough Constitution and Dexterity will surpass this barbarian in AC, which just feels backwards for this type of barbarian. Look at that picture. That looks like plate armor, not wimpy Half-Plate.
It gives you access to a bonus action attack equivalent to a dagger; not the highest damage, but it's also a full extra attack so can deal more damage than a Zealot's Divine Fury at lower levels as you still add your Strength modifier and Rage bonus, and being a full attack means it has the chance to deal damage when other attacks don't (a Zealot that misses twice deals zero damage, a Battlerager that misses twice then hits still deals at least some damage) although the reverse is also true (could miss while your other attacks hit in which case the Zealot would get the bonus while you don't) so it balances out roughly.
You're comparing it to the wrong things. Compare it to a Double-Bladed Scimitar. It does the same damage, requires the same bonus action, but the Double Bladed Scimitar can be magical, and this spiked attack can't be. That means at high enough levels, this attack will be literally useless against BBEGs. Compare it to the Beast Barbarian's Claw attack. It deals more damage and doesn't require a bonus action, as well as being magical at later levels.
The fact it also lets you deal damage (even a piddling amount) when initiating a grapple is a bonus as well, as you normally don't, and this encourages you to grapple more which is never a bad thing as Barbarian players really should grapple more, since Rage gives you advantage. You also deal this bonus damage when you're not raging, making this one of the few Barbarian sub-classes that can do more damage outside of a Rage.
If you want to be a damaging grappler, just take the Unarmed Fighting Style and you'll easily be dealing more damage than this subclass will, and it's every turn, not just when you first grapple them (which makes no freaking sense! If you hug a porcupine, it will hurt as long as you are hugging it, not just when you first start hugging it).
The damage is weak, doesn't scale, and practically requires you to keep a hand empty in order to get this lousy benefit. Mathematically, it would normally be better for you to just use a Greataxe with two hands than bother to keep a hand open to gain this extra damage.
At 6th level you gain temporary HP whenever you use Reckless Attack; again it's not much, but it does add up. For example, if your Constitution is +3 and you Reckless Attack five times, that's 15 extra damage you could take without touching your own HP. If you can squeeze ten Reckless Attacks into an adventuring day with Constitution +4 then it's 40 extra and so-on. It scales with your ability to attack recklessly while raging, so it scales up with rage uses as well as Constitution. For comparison, a Guardian Armorer Artificer gets temp HP based on level with proficiency maximum uses, so you can pull up a bigger boost at once, but fewer times, and on a class with fewer hit points and no built in resistance, and it requires your bonus action. They're different but I don't think Battlerager stacks up unfavourably at all. If you manage to be one of those rare few who get to the Barbarian's 20th level capstone, you could have an augmented CON of +7 and Rage continuously for 24 hours, attacking recklessly the entire time for a potential total boost of 100,800 temp. HP. 😄
The temporary hit points aren't awful, but they pale in comparison to every other 6th level barbarian subclass feature in the game. Berserkers get immunity to two conditions while raging. Storm Heralds get resistance to a damage type and an additional benefit dependent on their Storm Aura. Totem Warriors can grant huge buffs to themselves or allies (seeing 1 mile away and perfected darkvision, doubled carrying capacity, doubled travel pace, etc). Zealots get Indomitable once a rage, Wild Magic Barbarians can refuel spell slots or grant super guidance for 10 minutes, and Ancestral Guardians can save the puny wizard's life. This just is not good in comparison, especially if no one chooses to attack you.
Bonus Action Dash at 10th level is okay, especially if it helps you squeeze more reckless attacks and grapples into a rage when you run out of enemies in range, as dashing with a bonus action means you can still attack afterwards, or double dash for triple speed. It's actually not bad compared to other Barbarian 10th level abilities; a Zealot's Zealous Presence is probably the best of the bunch for raw combat (advantage on attacks and saving throws for up to ten creatures within 60 feet for one round), but it's only once per long rest, so I think it's okay overall.
It actually sucks in comparison to all other barbarian subclass features of the same level. This competes with all of your other bonus actions (spiked armor attack, rage, etc), and doesn't empower any of your previous features. Ancestral Guardians get a free divination spell once a short rest. Beast Barbarians can give enemies magical rabies. Berserkers get a dragon's Frightening Presence, Storm Heralds give allies resistance to a damage type if they're within their Storm Aura, and Totem Barbarians get at will Commune with Nature as a ritual. Zealots give temporary foresight to allies for one round and Wild Magic Barbarians get advantage on their randomness.
The 14th level feature, if you get that far, is just great; yes it's only a small amount of damage but its in response to every single melee attack that hits you, so it's more damage on top of the pretty reliable damage you should be putting out already, and it all adds up.
Only if you can get people to attack you. It's an okay feature, but in comparison to a Berserker's Retaliation, this is normally going to be worse than that, unless you have a massive horde of monsters attacking you each round.
It's basically a whole mess of chip damage and drips of temp. HP, but it all adds up. It can favour a different play-style to other Barbarian sub-classes, for example taking Grappler or Sentinel for more control rather than Great Weapon Master for raw damage. Though, nothing stops you from grabbing a greataxe and ignoring grapples for the -5 to hit for +10 damage feature (which you'll be attacking recklessly for and gaining temp. HP every time as a result), and since the GWM bonus action attack doesn't trigger all the time you can still use the spike attack the rest of the time.
Mechanically it's okay; not the most exciting in those terms, but if it fits your theme then that doesn't matter much as the fun of a character is dependent on the player more than anything. I think it's also worth remembering that it's still a Barbarian, which is a very solid base class; you still get Rage, Reckless Attack etc., and you're getting reliable boosts on top of that.
Again I think the main issue is that +N versions of Spike Armor should really boost its damage as well, as otherwise the spikes don't scale with the other weapons you might use. This would push it ahead of its normal scaling (which is otherwise similar to Divine Fury on a Zealot after starting out ahead) and make the spike damage magical to bypass those pesky resistances. It might be nice to get an extra skill and/or tool proficiency on it though; smith's tools being the obvious one if you're raging about in an uncommon style of armour that is definitely going to get tarnished.
As for whether I've played it; personally no, but a friend did during a 10th level one-shot and never had any major complaints. They took a warhammer so they could still grapple and wear down enemies, I don't remember if they took Grappler or not (I feel like they did but I forget, it was a while ago); they had fun with it while I was f'ing up all the spell-casting on the generic Wizard I brought to the party.
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The fact it also lets you deal damage (even a piddling amount) when initiating a grapple is a bonus as well, as you normally don't, and this encourages you to grapple more which is never a bad thing as Barbarian players really should grapple more, since Rage gives you advantage.
I hear this a lot. "People should grapple more." You know why they don't? Because it's not as good as you think it is. Most of the time, locking an enemy down is not really giving you a huge benefit when it can still attack you and was probably going to attack you anyway regardless. Also as a barbarian, you're giving up 50% of your Attack action to do this. Just killing faster is better control.
Yes, everyone has an anecdote about how grappling was super useful in a combat. It's a great tool, but you can't make a build around it because the situation where it counts is just not very common.
There is a reason that every single grapple-y monster has a real, damaging attack that also grapples. Because trading your damage for a grapple is generally a bad trade. There will not be a grapple-focused PC build that is in any way competitive until PCs have access to that same kind of mechanic. Battlerager is a great opportunity to do that IMO.
Yes, the Berserker and Battlerager has a damage disparity when it comes to their bonus action attacks. How big? On average, 4 points of damage. That isn't all that big. We are in agreement that the 3 damage for grappling isn't all that much damage and I don't think 4 is all that big of a difference either. I realize that you can use GWM with the Berserker's and it is clear that the damage can be augmented by magical items while the Berserker can't use GWM on the attack and it's unclear if magic items augment it, but I overall don't think the damage disparity is necessarily a huge knock on it because it's free. It's almost like they're dual wielding, 1 Great Axe and 1 dagger. I think this is actually pretty good.
You dislike the situational abilities but I think that all abilities in the game are situational. What makes them good is a function of how good it is and how often you'll use it.
Reckless Abandon - You knock the temporary HP feature because there are situations where you don't take damage in a round. Similarly though, in those rounds having d12 hit dice is a wasted feature. You might as well have d6. However, overall having a d12 is very important because of how likely the Barbarian will be hit. Similarly, these free temporary hit points are wasted when you're not taking damage, but overall it's a very positive feature because of how often the barbarian will be taking damage. The Barbarian is arguably the most likely class to take damage in a round. Their AC isn't great and they will typically be getting attacked at advantage. You're going to take damage as a Barbarian. These temporary HP are not amazing on their own but the fact that it will come up so often makes them useful. That's why I think these temporary hit points are good. They're free, come every round, and you're highly likely to use them. It might not be resistance to the damage levels of good, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
Battlerager Charge - The Bonus Action Dash is also situational. It won't come up all that often but when it does, it's very good. It could turn the damage you do in a round from 0 to 50. That's a big jump. You won't use it all that often but when you do it's great.
Spiked Retribution - So we've already concluded that you'll be getting hit as a Barbarian. Now, here is some free damage when you do. The damage is small, but it's free and it's going to come up very often. That's why I think this is actually fairly decent.
Situational abilities? Yes. However, two of them are so likely that I'm not sure even calling them situational is fair. They're borderline ubiquitous. They don't have a huge impact on a single round, but over time they have a fairly large impact. Battlerager Charge is the opposite, it's not going to be used very often but when it is used it will have a big impact on a single round.
I actually really like comparing the Battlerager against the Bear Totem and the Berserker. The Bear totem has resistance to almost all damage types and is thus a defensive powerhouse. However, when taking slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, the Battlerager is actually more defensive due to the temporary hit points and having resistance to those damage types. Overall, the bear totem is better defensively. On the other side of the spectrum, the Berserker has very few and highly situational defensive abilities. Instead, it is more potent offensively having several very strong features that are better than the offensive features of the Battlerager. I see the Battlerager is in the middle. It has a very nice defensive feature that provides constant influx of THP. It also has some abilities that increase overall damage but a moderate amount. I don't think the Battlerager is as good as either of these subclasses, but I do think it's overall fairly good.
Also the temp hit points dont stack, so when you reckless (if you have a 20 in con) you are getting 5 temp hitpoints no matter what. At level 6 I cant think of a single thing that does less than 10 points of damage in a single round against a barbarian. and you only have resistance to blg, prc, and slash dmg, any other damage type will blow through those.
the unarmed fighting style does far more damage, makes sense, and is viable to barbarians (sense they can get it from a feat now).
Dash action as a bonus action, at level 10? only while raging? really? Thats a diet third level eagle totem, literally. you could go two levels into rogue to grab some expertise in your skills and cunning section to make it better. Or just go charger so when you dash you gan make a charging great weapon master attack as a bonus action and clear 20 modifier damage if you hit.
Also the 14th level ability, take AT MAX (if we are counting that you have a legendary set of +3 spiked armor and that it stacks to the dmg) is 6 dmg to someone that makes a melle attack at you. Only if you are raging, not incapacitated, and wearing spiked armor. god forbid someone makes a ranged attack or force you to make a saving throw. hell the 300 hp mini boss is gonna take 9 dmg from you if they resist magical damage an wail on you with their multi attack.
and the 14th level ability is INSANE for other barbarians, as that the most powerful subclass ability.
All in all, its no where as strong as other subclasses, has too many restrictions on top of that, doesn't scale at all for higher levels of play, and actually has a weaker version of a thrid level ability as its 10th level ability. All other barbarians get abilities that can be used outside of rage, but not this subclass. the out of rage thing you get is your armor ability that allows you to make a bonus action shove or grapple. so you better not be two handing a weapon or thats useless. you might as well dual weild, you'll do more damage, and pick up tavernbrawler if you want that bonus action grapple, or even polearm master. also if your attacked in the night, that ability is gone, cause you don't have your armor on. In fact its easier than you think to do that, if enimies find out that you relay on your armor, they are going to attack you when you don't have it on.
Probably not gonna add much to this post but i agree, maybe with time things will change but, I love the concept of undying warlock as well as the Battlerager barbarian and kinda got upset when neither of them got updated in Tasha. What makes it worse for me is that WoTC made the "Undead" (which i kinda loved mechanical wise) Warlock which is supposedly different from undying but all what i am seeing is, they don't want to update the Undying. I seriously hope the Raveloft book (assuming the rumor of it being in the making is real) fixes the Undying and the undead, which is highly unlikely to happen.
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So how come all the fuss to make the Bladesinger a "race inclusive" class but the Battlerager gets to sit there with a thumb up its butt?
The battlerager certainly could have used a tune up like the bladesinger got. Is this just a matter of subclass popularity like I think it is?
Anyone else annoyed at the lack of consistency?
I was just looking at thinking "this could be OK if they would add some scaling by level or something to it so that what it did wasn't so limited"
I imagine it came down to Battlerager not being popular enough to worry about, particularly since there were no balance changes to the subclass. Bladesinger had some balance changes (bladesong changed, attack action changed). Removing the elf only restriction /likely/ only happened because of the other changes to the bladesinger class.
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Tasha
Yeah it really feels like a popularity thing. If battlerager was iconic like the bladesinger it would have gotten some love. Would have liked to see that happen.
I have ranted about this alot to my friends, but wizards just has a hard on for elves cause of LOTR. Alot of people in fantasy think elves are the best, and LOTR is a lot of peoples first introduction into elves. Elves in LOTR are a super awsome race with no flaws and they smarter and not bad like others. LOTR is amazing but a lot of people took this idea of elves and ran, like with the whole alpha wolf thig.
Now a lot of people like that kind of elf, so companies push out that kind of elf in their fantasy stuff cause the fans like it. Its just a popularity contest, and elves win alot, so they make more elf stuff to meet demand and it snowballs. Elfs and half elfs are some of the strongest races in PHB, and bladsinger is pretty strong as a wizard subclass. Not in the sense of nuke power but it takes the weaknesses of wizard and removes them. No one complains cause elves are super cool, so they make more elf stuff.
Dwarves are my favorite race, and battle rager had potential, but the subclass is useless. There is a couple races in the PHB that have gotten almost no new subrace while elves and tiefling have gotten like 6.
I would have hoped they redid it in tashas, but they just made bladesinger stronger.
All in all, sorry for the rant but dwarves just don't win the popularity contest or the meta one.
Don't apologize! That's why I created this thread. Welcome home lol
I can't stand how much elves are the golden child of fantasy. I don't hate them or anything, I just think the attention is...basic.
I really like your point about the "awesome-at-everything-race" image of elves. Not sure if you're an MTG player, but I loved the elves from Lorwyn. They were lawful evil and hunted anything they believed were not "beautiful". They terraformed land to an obsessive level. It gave such a great sinister quality to them.
It's also no secret that all of these racially based changes in 5e started being talked about during a summer full of civil unrest around racial inequality. I find it hilarious that the battlerager was just left out when they managed to make sure no race had any bad stats or negative connotations. The bladesinger racial restriction change was absolutely a part of this ideological shift, and got the benefit of a power boost along the way. But the battlerager? oops I guess.
I was really hoping to find the battlerager in Tasha's when I heard about the bladesinger. Not just because I love dwarves, but because it's a cool subclass concept with terrible execution.
I have tried to rewrite Battlerager a few times for my own use. I think it would be a great subclass to focus on grapples/shoves for a really physical, hurl-yourself-at-an-enemy feel.
I replaced the lame 3 damage grapple, made it 1d4+STR, and applied it to Shove also. The bonus action you get while raging is no longer an attack but a grapple or shove, or applying STR mod damage to a creature already grappled. If you have magic spiked armor, the damage counts as magical. And for the charge feature, you need to be running towards an enemy.
At higher levels when you make a successful grapple attempt on a creature too large to normally grapple, you instead grab on to it and follow the Climb on to a Bigger Creature variant rules in the DMG.
So far I have only played it at level 3 but it was pretty fun and had a distinctive feel to it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
That sounds like a brilliant fix.
My only complaint is that makes the amazing battlerager 3/monk of four elements X build not able to maintain rage anymore. I need my barbarian blaster. lol
But really, amazing ideas. I'm going to take note of that.
It's because of a few reasons.
First, elves are "cooler" than dwarves, according to the stats of the most commonly played races and classes in the game (elves are twice as popular, it appears).
Second, though barbarians are about as commonly played as wizards, Wizards of the Coast has a strong bias towards giving the Wizard class all of the cool things, proven by how awfully designed sorcerers are.
Third, battleragers are one of the worst designed subclasses in all of 5e, competing with the Purple Dragon Knight Fighter, Four Elements Monks, and Undying Warlocks (three of these 4 subclasses are from the SCAG). It is so badly designed that it is nearly unplayable.
It definitely could use a boost, but WotC does not like changing official content. They may have done it with the Bladesinger, but are still hesitant about doing it in the future.
Yes, I'm annoyed, but I'm starting to get used to WotC's lack of consistency.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think it's more that elves and wizards are the crippling pets of fantasy fiction as a whole. They're part of the public image of fantasy, so they get nice things to maintain that image. Dwarves are rarely depicted in a favorable light, but usually have a personality of "hates elves" as their defining trait. And other than Conan, Barbarians don't get the best rep ever. They are seen in stereotype as brutes ruled solely by their rage.
But for the Battlerager in particular? Part of it is the mix of Dwarf and Barbarian, but I think a lot of it is that the mechanics and lore are practically alien to the concept of the Barbarian. The image is of a lightly armored person with a club, greatsword, or axe charging down a horde of foes. Not a guy who looks like an evil overlord in full plate armor trying to suplex people with armor spikes. Even the word Battlerager is confusing redundant language in the context of the Barbarian. We know a Barbarian wades into battle and rages hard, but Battlerager just describes the simple job without cluing in the player into what is special about the subclass.
Other than lifting the racial requirement (which isn't really much of a change since it's a "your DM can waive this" thing already) does the official content actually need to be changed much?
IMO the basic mechanics work okay; you could solve a lot of problems just by adding upgraded forms of Spiked Armour, e.g- Spiked Armour, +1 would be 15+DEX(max 2) armour and increases the damage of all Battlerager features by +1.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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This. There seems a strong bias towards casters in general, and wizards in particular, throughout the game. Martial characters seem to be just considered "meat bags who do the grunt work for our cool wizards".
At least that's how it looks to me.
Have you played one or played in a campaign with one? If not, I recommend trying one for a bit. They're really, really bad.
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That seems a little much. 😝
Spiked Armor has a medium armoured AC that's only surpassed by Half Plate. It gives you access to a bonus action attack equivalent to a dagger; not the highest damage, but it's also a full extra attack so can deal more damage than a Zealot's Divine Fury at lower levels as you still add your Strength modifier and Rage bonus, and being a full attack means it has the chance to deal damage when other attacks don't (a Zealot that misses twice deals zero damage, a Battlerager that misses twice then hits still deals at least some damage) although the reverse is also true (could miss while your other attacks hit in which case the Zealot would get the bonus while you don't) so it balances out roughly.
The fact it also lets you deal damage (even a piddling amount) when initiating a grapple is a bonus as well, as you normally don't, and this encourages you to grapple more which is never a bad thing as Barbarian players really should grapple more, since Rage gives you advantage. You also deal this bonus damage when you're not raging, making this one of the few Barbarian sub-classes that can do more damage outside of a Rage.
At 6th level you gain temporary HP whenever you use Reckless Attack; again it's not much, but it does add up. For example, if your Constitution is +3 and you Reckless Attack five times, that's 15 extra damage you could take without touching your own HP. If you can squeeze ten Reckless Attacks into an adventuring day with Constitution +4 then it's 40 extra and so-on. It scales with your ability to attack recklessly while raging, so it scales up with rage uses as well as Constitution. For comparison, a Guardian Armorer Artificer gets temp HP based on level with proficiency maximum uses, so you can pull up a bigger boost at once, but fewer times, and on a class with fewer hit points and no built in resistance, and it requires your bonus action. They're different but I don't think Battlerager stacks up unfavourably at all. If you manage to be one of those rare few who get to the Barbarian's 20th level capstone, you could have an augmented CON of +7 and Rage continuously for 24 hours, attacking recklessly the entire time for a potential total boost of 100,800 temp. HP. 😄
Bonus Action Dash at 10th level is okay, especially if it helps you squeeze more reckless attacks and grapples into a rage when you run out of enemies in range, as dashing with a bonus action means you can still attack afterwards, or double dash for triple speed. It's actually not bad compared to other Barbarian 10th level abilities; a Zealot's Zealous Presence is probably the best of the bunch for raw combat (advantage on attacks and saving throws for up to ten creatures within 60 feet for one round), but it's only once per long rest, so I think it's okay overall.
The 14th level feature, if you get that far, is just great; yes it's only a small amount of damage but its in response to every single melee attack that hits you, so it's more damage on top of the pretty reliable damage you should be putting out already, and it all adds up.
It's basically a whole mess of chip damage and drips of temp. HP, but it all adds up. It can favour a different play-style to other Barbarian sub-classes, for example taking Grappler or Sentinel for more control rather than Great Weapon Master for raw damage. Though, nothing stops you from grabbing a greataxe and ignoring grapples for the -5 to hit for +10 damage feature (which you'll be attacking recklessly for and gaining temp. HP every time as a result), and since the GWM bonus action attack doesn't trigger all the time you can still use the spike attack the rest of the time.
Mechanically it's okay; not the most exciting in those terms, but if it fits your theme then that doesn't matter much as the fun of a character is dependent on the player more than anything. I think it's also worth remembering that it's still a Barbarian, which is a very solid base class; you still get Rage, Reckless Attack etc., and you're getting reliable boosts on top of that.
Again I think the main issue is that +N versions of Spike Armor should really boost its damage as well, as otherwise the spikes don't scale with the other weapons you might use. This would push it ahead of its normal scaling (which is otherwise similar to Divine Fury on a Zealot after starting out ahead) and make the spike damage magical to bypass those pesky resistances. It might be nice to get an extra skill and/or tool proficiency on it though; smith's tools being the obvious one if you're raging about in an uncommon style of armour that is definitely going to get tarnished.
As for whether I've played it; personally no, but a friend did during a 10th level one-shot and never had any major complaints. They took a warhammer so they could still grapple and wear down enemies, I don't remember if they took Grappler or not (I feel like they did but I forget, it was a while ago); they had fun with it while I was f'ing up all the spell-casting on the generic Wizard I brought to the party.
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That's why post tasha's dwarves make better wizards (or any other caster) than elves, right?
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Tasha
And on par with two other types of medium armor. Any barbarian with high enough Constitution and Dexterity will surpass this barbarian in AC, which just feels backwards for this type of barbarian. Look at that picture. That looks like plate armor, not wimpy Half-Plate.
You're comparing it to the wrong things. Compare it to a Double-Bladed Scimitar. It does the same damage, requires the same bonus action, but the Double Bladed Scimitar can be magical, and this spiked attack can't be. That means at high enough levels, this attack will be literally useless against BBEGs. Compare it to the Beast Barbarian's Claw attack. It deals more damage and doesn't require a bonus action, as well as being magical at later levels.
If you want to be a damaging grappler, just take the Unarmed Fighting Style and you'll easily be dealing more damage than this subclass will, and it's every turn, not just when you first grapple them (which makes no freaking sense! If you hug a porcupine, it will hurt as long as you are hugging it, not just when you first start hugging it).
The damage is weak, doesn't scale, and practically requires you to keep a hand empty in order to get this lousy benefit. Mathematically, it would normally be better for you to just use a Greataxe with two hands than bother to keep a hand open to gain this extra damage.
The temporary hit points aren't awful, but they pale in comparison to every other 6th level barbarian subclass feature in the game. Berserkers get immunity to two conditions while raging. Storm Heralds get resistance to a damage type and an additional benefit dependent on their Storm Aura. Totem Warriors can grant huge buffs to themselves or allies (seeing 1 mile away and perfected darkvision, doubled carrying capacity, doubled travel pace, etc). Zealots get Indomitable once a rage, Wild Magic Barbarians can refuel spell slots or grant super guidance for 10 minutes, and Ancestral Guardians can save the puny wizard's life. This just is not good in comparison, especially if no one chooses to attack you.
It actually sucks in comparison to all other barbarian subclass features of the same level. This competes with all of your other bonus actions (spiked armor attack, rage, etc), and doesn't empower any of your previous features. Ancestral Guardians get a free divination spell once a short rest. Beast Barbarians can give enemies magical rabies. Berserkers get a dragon's Frightening Presence, Storm Heralds give allies resistance to a damage type if they're within their Storm Aura, and Totem Barbarians get at will Commune with Nature as a ritual. Zealots give temporary foresight to allies for one round and Wild Magic Barbarians get advantage on their randomness.
Only if you can get people to attack you. It's an okay feature, but in comparison to a Berserker's Retaliation, this is normally going to be worse than that, unless you have a massive horde of monsters attacking you each round.
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Yeah, he's right - Battlerager is not good.
I hear this a lot. "People should grapple more." You know why they don't? Because it's not as good as you think it is. Most of the time, locking an enemy down is not really giving you a huge benefit when it can still attack you and was probably going to attack you anyway regardless. Also as a barbarian, you're giving up 50% of your Attack action to do this. Just killing faster is better control.
Yes, everyone has an anecdote about how grappling was super useful in a combat. It's a great tool, but you can't make a build around it because the situation where it counts is just not very common.
There is a reason that every single grapple-y monster has a real, damaging attack that also grapples. Because trading your damage for a grapple is generally a bad trade. There will not be a grapple-focused PC build that is in any way competitive until PCs have access to that same kind of mechanic. Battlerager is a great opportunity to do that IMO.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yes, the Berserker and Battlerager has a damage disparity when it comes to their bonus action attacks. How big? On average, 4 points of damage. That isn't all that big. We are in agreement that the 3 damage for grappling isn't all that much damage and I don't think 4 is all that big of a difference either. I realize that you can use GWM with the Berserker's and it is clear that the damage can be augmented by magical items while the Berserker can't use GWM on the attack and it's unclear if magic items augment it, but I overall don't think the damage disparity is necessarily a huge knock on it because it's free. It's almost like they're dual wielding, 1 Great Axe and 1 dagger. I think this is actually pretty good.
You dislike the situational abilities but I think that all abilities in the game are situational. What makes them good is a function of how good it is and how often you'll use it.
Situational abilities? Yes. However, two of them are so likely that I'm not sure even calling them situational is fair. They're borderline ubiquitous. They don't have a huge impact on a single round, but over time they have a fairly large impact. Battlerager Charge is the opposite, it's not going to be used very often but when it is used it will have a big impact on a single round.
I actually really like comparing the Battlerager against the Bear Totem and the Berserker. The Bear totem has resistance to almost all damage types and is thus a defensive powerhouse. However, when taking slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, the Battlerager is actually more defensive due to the temporary hit points and having resistance to those damage types. Overall, the bear totem is better defensively. On the other side of the spectrum, the Berserker has very few and highly situational defensive abilities. Instead, it is more potent offensively having several very strong features that are better than the offensive features of the Battlerager. I see the Battlerager is in the middle. It has a very nice defensive feature that provides constant influx of THP. It also has some abilities that increase overall damage but a moderate amount. I don't think the Battlerager is as good as either of these subclasses, but I do think it's overall fairly good.
Also the temp hit points dont stack, so when you reckless (if you have a 20 in con) you are getting 5 temp hitpoints no matter what. At level 6 I cant think of a single thing that does less than 10 points of damage in a single round against a barbarian. and you only have resistance to blg, prc, and slash dmg, any other damage type will blow through those.
the unarmed fighting style does far more damage, makes sense, and is viable to barbarians (sense they can get it from a feat now).
Dash action as a bonus action, at level 10? only while raging? really? Thats a diet third level eagle totem, literally. you could go two levels into rogue to grab some expertise in your skills and cunning section to make it better. Or just go charger so when you dash you gan make a charging great weapon master attack as a bonus action and clear 20 modifier damage if you hit.
Also the 14th level ability, take AT MAX (if we are counting that you have a legendary set of +3 spiked armor and that it stacks to the dmg) is 6 dmg to someone that makes a melle attack at you. Only if you are raging, not incapacitated, and wearing spiked armor. god forbid someone makes a ranged attack or force you to make a saving throw. hell the 300 hp mini boss is gonna take 9 dmg from you if they resist magical damage an wail on you with their multi attack.
and the 14th level ability is INSANE for other barbarians, as that the most powerful subclass ability.
All in all, its no where as strong as other subclasses, has too many restrictions on top of that, doesn't scale at all for higher levels of play, and actually has a weaker version of a thrid level ability as its 10th level ability. All other barbarians get abilities that can be used outside of rage, but not this subclass. the out of rage thing you get is your armor ability that allows you to make a bonus action shove or grapple. so you better not be two handing a weapon or thats useless. you might as well dual weild, you'll do more damage, and pick up tavernbrawler if you want that bonus action grapple, or even polearm master. also if your attacked in the night, that ability is gone, cause you don't have your armor on. In fact its easier than you think to do that, if enimies find out that you relay on your armor, they are going to attack you when you don't have it on.
Probably not gonna add much to this post but i agree, maybe with time things will change but, I love the concept of undying warlock as well as the Battlerager barbarian and kinda got upset when neither of them got updated in Tasha. What makes it worse for me is that WoTC made the "Undead" (which i kinda loved mechanical wise) Warlock which is supposedly different from undying but all what i am seeing is, they don't want to update the Undying. I seriously hope the Raveloft book (assuming the rumor of it being in the making is real) fixes the Undying and the undead, which is highly unlikely to happen.
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