I'm a little apprehensive to step out in front of the rage train here, but I think Psi Warrior is fairly good. I wouldn't expect it to be as versatile as the BM because versatility is the whole point of the BM. This has fewer tricks and likely a DC that's 1 or 2 points lower, but the damage is higher to compensate.
But what I really appreciate about it is that you can use some of this stuff outside of combat. Fighter really suffers from useless-in-town syndrome and the BM shouting that each NPC has lower AC than him does not qualify as useful in the vast majority of cases. In contrast Telekinetic Movement is an extremely broad, open ability with tons of creative potential. It's Mage Hand if that hand were attached to a rippling muscly bicep. Psi-powered Leap is likewise a crucial benefit when you need it, in or out of combat and honestly seeing no mention that the class can frickin fly at level 7 with a bonus action really gives me the impression that we're not being fully objective here. Despite the fewer choices compared to BM, I still feel PW provides broader benefits. But if you're measuring by how many different ways you can hit your enemies, sure BM wins that game.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but cavalier looks like fun, even ignoring the mounted combatant features. I like tanky fighters and it has some interesting abilities to hold a monster's attention. At least it looks like it to me. Haven't seen it on play yet, though.
yes, I have heard it referred to as "Sentinel, the class" and I can see that description. There's a lot of opportunity there to punish enemies for not attacking you.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
While I'm sure most DMs are nice enough to have enemies focus on the "tank" of the group, there are times when it makes sense for an enemy to go after the mid or back lines. Most other defender type classes don't have the ability to stop them from doing so, besides an opportunity attack (or compelled duel), so that's why I am drawn to the Cav with their innate ability to hold enemies down. No spending ASIs for feats to do so.
My only issue is that the Cavalier only really hits its stride at 18. Before that, it feels like the limit of one Reaction per round just hinders it too much. Be nice if you could swap out some of the mounted stuff for a second Reaction. Or better yet they had just separated the Mounted Combat subclass from the Ultimate Defender subclass.
I'm a little apprehensive to step out in front of the rage train here, but I think Psi Warrior is fairly good. I wouldn't expect it to be as versatile as the BM because versatility is the whole point of the BM. This has fewer tricks and likely a DC that's 1 or 2 points lower, but the damage is higher to compensate.
But what I really appreciate about it is that you can use some of this stuff outside of combat. Fighter really suffers from useless-in-town syndrome and the BM shouting that each NPC has lower AC than him does not qualify as useful in the vast majority of cases. In contrast Telekinetic Movement is an extremely broad, open ability with tons of creative potential. It's Mage Hand if that hand were attached to a rippling muscly bicep. Psi-powered Leap is likewise a crucial benefit when you need it, in or out of combat and honestly seeing no mention that the class can frickin fly at level 7 with a bonus action really gives me the impression that we're not being fully objective here. Despite the fewer choices compared to BM, I still feel PW provides broader benefits. But if you're measuring by how many different ways you can hit your enemies, sure BM wins that game.
You should have played the UA version. (It was waayyy more useful. Admittedly, it was vastly improved by the Wild Talent (Strength) and Telekinetic (Intelligence) feats. I am refusing to switch to the new version because the old version was so much cooler. https://ddb.ac/characters/30368439/HHMACt)
Rune Knight, Echo Knight, and Battlemaster are definitely the strongest fighters. All the other subclasses aren't as strong in combat, but can fit neat archetypes.
The only outright bad subclass is Purple Dragon Knight. The noble background covers most of what the class grants you.
Rune Knight, Echo Knight, and Battlemaster are definitely the strongest fighters. All the other subclasses aren't as strong in combat, but can fit neat archetypes.
The only outright bad subclass is Purple Dragon Knight. The noble background covers most of what the class grants you.
What I like about PDK is that your base class features extend to your allies, giving the PDK more supportive than most of the other archetypes.
What I like about PDK is that your base class features extend to your allies, giving the PDK more supportive than most of the other archetypes.
Chevalier and Psi-Knight can provide more support to allies than PDK, so it fails even at the only thing it's supposed to specialize in.
So can Rune Knight and Battlemaster, to be honest.
Yeah, I am not arguing that, I said it provides more support than most of the archetypes, battle master provides quite a bit and I just read through Rune Knight, it does as well.
In most games I'd agree that the PDK is a weaker option, but I could see it performing well (not the greatest mechanically, obviously) in an intrigue heavy setting where combat might not be the main focus, but is a real enough threat for the party to need a solid defender. Baseline PDK is not the most appealing. Throwing some feats and such into it could make it more fun.
My favorite fighter archetype, and yall will probably disagree heavily with me what with BM being a thing, is the champion. Its simple, yes, but I had the most fun playing a Champion that I've ever had in 5e.
You can build a Battle Master solely focused on commanding the battlefield like a Warlord. Several maneuvers can support that and can you even leverage good feats like Inspiring Leader. My DM allows Tandem Tactician from UA which unfortunately didn’t make through Tasha’s and you really feel like a master commander.
I forget that thing even exists. I dont think I'd ever consider playing one.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I forget that thing even exists. I dont think I'd ever consider playing one.
I had only considered it once, myself, for a game where we the PCs were supposed to be running a kingdom. My guy was the king's advisor and expected to represent him doing diplo stuff, so I made up a Banneret (Purple Dragon Knight) because fighters are my favorite class and I didn't want to play a paladin. Unfortunately (fortunately?), the game didn't take off so I didn't get to experience the class in action.
The fighter got so much love in Tasha's and I feel like it wasn't even the class looking for it. But I'm not complaining cause I like the fighter a lot too. So many new goodies with new fighting styles and maneuvers. Fighters also get to enjoy more access to some great new feats like eldritch adept and fighting initiate thanks to extra ASI's.
I really like your top 3. they match my favorites, but my most powerful are slightly different. I'll start with what I think are the most powerful subclasses from 3rd best to 1st.
3. Eldritch Knight: The classic spellsword, it's going to be hard for me to talk about EK without talking about what it narrowly edged out for this spot; Rune Knight. I absolutely love the rune knight but ultimately I gave it to EK for the simple reason that I believe that EK spells > Runes + Giant's Might. But it's super close. I believe EK's are more versatile in their construction because it is easier to curate their toolkit to align towards the same goals. Meanwhile the RK's abilities have more raw power but are disparate and difficult to synergize within the same build.
2. Battle Master: New maneuvers, new maneuvers, new maneuvers. This is hot. I like that they opened up some social skills and gave support to fighting styles with little love. A powerful subclass that got even more tools, it feels odd not to have this at number 1.
1. Echo Knight: And then I remember that the Echo Knight exists now. This little upstart went and stole BM's crown as the top fighter subclass in my mind. The Echo Knight's echo is an unbelievable boon when it comes to battlefield tactics and maneuverability. Frankly I think it's hard to over-value maneuverability when it comes to any class trying to smack things with weapons. I agree the Echo Knight is a subclass that pushes creativity. Its mechanics manage to deliver on raw power and creative potential at the same time. Ultimately I've given the Echo Knight the top spot on the most powerful list because I believe it is the most adept at slaughtering its enemies with insane unleash incarnate + action surge combos while also being the most reliable at engaging its targets because of its echo's maneuverability. In the end, your party is relying on you as the fighter to be a consistent and impressive damage dealer and so that has been my primary metric for establishing this list.
Top Tier Fun. Time for my favorite 3 in order from 3rd to 1st.
3. Battlemaster: This used to be the Eldritch Knight for me up until Tasha's as I am super fond of spell swords. These new maneuvers and fighting styles really amped up my excitement for this subclass. Unbelievably flexible in construction with a heap of satisfying short rest based abilities. It's just an awesome toolkit to build your fighter that's so badass he can rumble with wizards and dragons with nothing but his weapons. I'm particularly fond of seeing how a quick toss fueled thrower could perform in this new era. Variant Human to pick up fighting initiate with the intent of going battlemaster at 3 to pick up quick toss maneuver. Level 1 you can stack dueling and thrown weapon styles for a flat +4 on all your thrown weapon attacks. Yes please
2. Echo Knight: What an unbelievably cool subclass. The flavor behind the class is some of the coolest in DnD, and its abilities lend to some sick homebrew lore when your DM is cool with that kind of thing. It has a similar relationship to creativity that illusion spells do and will make you feel super smart as you find new ways to manipulate your echo to do increasingly complex things. The echo is also limitless in its uses, which just feels so good. Never having to worry about running out of your main shtick is great. All this while being my vote for the best DPS fighter of any of the subclasses because it can make extra attacks and has the mobility to make sure they happen. Yeah Echo Knight is great. Used to be my number 1.
1. Rune Knight: HOLY CRAP. What a homerun in terms of flavor and design. I loved this class when it was in UA and I love it even more now that it's official. Minmaxers may be annoyed by the nerfs to some of its abilities post UA, but to me they serve to bring the Rune Knight into a perfect place of balance when it comes to power, functionality and flavor. This class is all over the place when it comes to possible abilities and it's hard to find a lane where you take advantage of every ability you're picking up. This may have hurt it in my power ranking but it is also the quality that has it instantly rocket to my favorite fighter sub. I love trickster characters with weird and varying abilities: a toolbelt of tricks that require creativity to really shine. I also love when a character has a well defined and multi-layered identity outside of combat. Runes such as Cloud, Stone and Fire really speak to me because of their passive skill boosts just as much, if not more than their flashier activations. The Rune Knight boosting various social and utility skills is fantastic design and I think will lead to some of the coolest and most character rich fighters we've ever seen. I'm personally very excited about a Loki inspired build that picks up the Mask of Many Faces invocation via Eldritch Adept and gets advantage on deception with the cloud rune.
Started typing this days ago and then forgot about it. Oops.
I am running an EK with a few wizard levels through Tomb of Annihilation right now, and he is exceptionally tanky. The best design choice was to take heavy armor mastery as the vhuman feat. Also running abjuror wizard for that subclass, which is essentially free rechargable hit points.
I'm really excited about slapping Eldritch Adept: Devil's Sight on an Elven EK with elven accuracy and the darkness spell.
Silmakhor how deep into abjurer wizard are you going? Eldritch Adept: Armor of Shadows would have a surprising amount of value on your heavy armor tank if you grow your ward big enough. Armor of shadows represents at will abjuration magic, and thus unlimited charges of your ward as long as you have the time to charge it.
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I'm a little apprehensive to step out in front of the rage train here, but I think Psi Warrior is fairly good. I wouldn't expect it to be as versatile as the BM because versatility is the whole point of the BM. This has fewer tricks and likely a DC that's 1 or 2 points lower, but the damage is higher to compensate.
But what I really appreciate about it is that you can use some of this stuff outside of combat. Fighter really suffers from useless-in-town syndrome and the BM shouting that each NPC has lower AC than him does not qualify as useful in the vast majority of cases. In contrast Telekinetic Movement is an extremely broad, open ability with tons of creative potential. It's Mage Hand if that hand were attached to a rippling muscly bicep. Psi-powered Leap is likewise a crucial benefit when you need it, in or out of combat and honestly seeing no mention that the class can frickin fly at level 7 with a bonus action really gives me the impression that we're not being fully objective here. Despite the fewer choices compared to BM, I still feel PW provides broader benefits. But if you're measuring by how many different ways you can hit your enemies, sure BM wins that game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You make some solid points there.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but cavalier looks like fun, even ignoring the mounted combatant features. I like tanky fighters and it has some interesting abilities to hold a monster's attention. At least it looks like it to me. Haven't seen it on play yet, though.
yes, I have heard it referred to as "Sentinel, the class" and I can see that description. There's a lot of opportunity there to punish enemies for not attacking you.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
While I'm sure most DMs are nice enough to have enemies focus on the "tank" of the group, there are times when it makes sense for an enemy to go after the mid or back lines. Most other defender type classes don't have the ability to stop them from doing so, besides an opportunity attack (or compelled duel), so that's why I am drawn to the Cav with their innate ability to hold enemies down. No spending ASIs for feats to do so.
I'm gonna have to drum one up to play some day!
My only issue is that the Cavalier only really hits its stride at 18. Before that, it feels like the limit of one Reaction per round just hinders it too much. Be nice if you could swap out some of the mounted stuff for a second Reaction. Or better yet they had just separated the Mounted Combat subclass from the Ultimate Defender subclass.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You should have played the UA version. (It was waayyy more useful. Admittedly, it was vastly improved by the Wild Talent (Strength) and Telekinetic (Intelligence) feats. I am refusing to switch to the new version because the old version was so much cooler. https://ddb.ac/characters/30368439/HHMACt)
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Rune Knight, Echo Knight, and Battlemaster are definitely the strongest fighters. All the other subclasses aren't as strong in combat, but can fit neat archetypes.
The only outright bad subclass is Purple Dragon Knight. The noble background covers most of what the class grants you.
What I like about PDK is that your base class features extend to your allies, giving the PDK more supportive than most of the other archetypes.
Chevalier and Psi-Knight can provide more support to allies than PDK, so it fails even at the only thing it's supposed to specialize in.
So can Rune Knight and Battlemaster, to be honest.
Yeah, I am not arguing that, I said it provides more support than most of the archetypes, battle master provides quite a bit and I just read through Rune Knight, it does as well.
In most games I'd agree that the PDK is a weaker option, but I could see it performing well (not the greatest mechanically, obviously) in an intrigue heavy setting where combat might not be the main focus, but is a real enough threat for the party to need a solid defender. Baseline PDK is not the most appealing. Throwing some feats and such into it could make it more fun.
My favorite fighter archetype, and yall will probably disagree heavily with me what with BM being a thing, is the champion. Its simple, yes, but I had the most fun playing a Champion that I've ever had in 5e.
Champion is ok. I’d say they are even better now with more fighting style options.
You can build a Battle Master solely focused on commanding the battlefield like a Warlord. Several maneuvers can support that and can you even leverage good feats like Inspiring Leader. My DM allows Tandem Tactician from UA which unfortunately didn’t make through Tasha’s and you really feel like a master commander.
PDK is a horrible bad joke.
Nobody has spoken of the Purple Dragon Knight in so long it took me a moment to remember what the hell a PDK was. 😂😂
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
I forget that thing even exists. I dont think I'd ever consider playing one.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I had only considered it once, myself, for a game where we the PCs were supposed to be running a kingdom. My guy was the king's advisor and expected to represent him doing diplo stuff, so I made up a Banneret (Purple Dragon Knight) because fighters are my favorite class and I didn't want to play a paladin. Unfortunately (fortunately?), the game didn't take off so I didn't get to experience the class in action.
The fighter got so much love in Tasha's and I feel like it wasn't even the class looking for it. But I'm not complaining cause I like the fighter a lot too. So many new goodies with new fighting styles and maneuvers. Fighters also get to enjoy more access to some great new feats like eldritch adept and fighting initiate thanks to extra ASI's.
I really like your top 3. they match my favorites, but my most powerful are slightly different. I'll start with what I think are the most powerful subclasses from 3rd best to 1st.
3. Eldritch Knight: The classic spellsword, it's going to be hard for me to talk about EK without talking about what it narrowly edged out for this spot; Rune Knight. I absolutely love the rune knight but ultimately I gave it to EK for the simple reason that I believe that EK spells > Runes + Giant's Might. But it's super close. I believe EK's are more versatile in their construction because it is easier to curate their toolkit to align towards the same goals. Meanwhile the RK's abilities have more raw power but are disparate and difficult to synergize within the same build.
2. Battle Master: New maneuvers, new maneuvers, new maneuvers. This is hot. I like that they opened up some social skills and gave support to fighting styles with little love. A powerful subclass that got even more tools, it feels odd not to have this at number 1.
1. Echo Knight: And then I remember that the Echo Knight exists now. This little upstart went and stole BM's crown as the top fighter subclass in my mind. The Echo Knight's echo is an unbelievable boon when it comes to battlefield tactics and maneuverability. Frankly I think it's hard to over-value maneuverability when it comes to any class trying to smack things with weapons. I agree the Echo Knight is a subclass that pushes creativity. Its mechanics manage to deliver on raw power and creative potential at the same time. Ultimately I've given the Echo Knight the top spot on the most powerful list because I believe it is the most adept at slaughtering its enemies with insane unleash incarnate + action surge combos while also being the most reliable at engaging its targets because of its echo's maneuverability. In the end, your party is relying on you as the fighter to be a consistent and impressive damage dealer and so that has been my primary metric for establishing this list.
Top Tier Fun. Time for my favorite 3 in order from 3rd to 1st.
3. Battlemaster: This used to be the Eldritch Knight for me up until Tasha's as I am super fond of spell swords. These new maneuvers and fighting styles really amped up my excitement for this subclass. Unbelievably flexible in construction with a heap of satisfying short rest based abilities. It's just an awesome toolkit to build your fighter that's so badass he can rumble with wizards and dragons with nothing but his weapons. I'm particularly fond of seeing how a quick toss fueled thrower could perform in this new era. Variant Human to pick up fighting initiate with the intent of going battlemaster at 3 to pick up quick toss maneuver. Level 1 you can stack dueling and thrown weapon styles for a flat +4 on all your thrown weapon attacks. Yes please
2. Echo Knight: What an unbelievably cool subclass. The flavor behind the class is some of the coolest in DnD, and its abilities lend to some sick homebrew lore when your DM is cool with that kind of thing. It has a similar relationship to creativity that illusion spells do and will make you feel super smart as you find new ways to manipulate your echo to do increasingly complex things. The echo is also limitless in its uses, which just feels so good. Never having to worry about running out of your main shtick is great. All this while being my vote for the best DPS fighter of any of the subclasses because it can make extra attacks and has the mobility to make sure they happen. Yeah Echo Knight is great. Used to be my number 1.
1. Rune Knight: HOLY CRAP. What a homerun in terms of flavor and design. I loved this class when it was in UA and I love it even more now that it's official. Minmaxers may be annoyed by the nerfs to some of its abilities post UA, but to me they serve to bring the Rune Knight into a perfect place of balance when it comes to power, functionality and flavor. This class is all over the place when it comes to possible abilities and it's hard to find a lane where you take advantage of every ability you're picking up. This may have hurt it in my power ranking but it is also the quality that has it instantly rocket to my favorite fighter sub. I love trickster characters with weird and varying abilities: a toolbelt of tricks that require creativity to really shine. I also love when a character has a well defined and multi-layered identity outside of combat. Runes such as Cloud, Stone and Fire really speak to me because of their passive skill boosts just as much, if not more than their flashier activations. The Rune Knight boosting various social and utility skills is fantastic design and I think will lead to some of the coolest and most character rich fighters we've ever seen. I'm personally very excited about a Loki inspired build that picks up the Mask of Many Faces invocation via Eldritch Adept and gets advantage on deception with the cloud rune.
Started typing this days ago and then forgot about it. Oops.
I am running an EK with a few wizard levels through Tomb of Annihilation right now, and he is exceptionally tanky. The best design choice was to take heavy armor mastery as the vhuman feat. Also running abjuror wizard for that subclass, which is essentially free rechargable hit points.
Yeah EK's are some tanky bros. Dem thick bois.
I'm really excited about slapping Eldritch Adept: Devil's Sight on an Elven EK with elven accuracy and the darkness spell.
Silmakhor how deep into abjurer wizard are you going? Eldritch Adept: Armor of Shadows would have a surprising amount of value on your heavy armor tank if you grow your ward big enough. Armor of shadows represents at will abjuration magic, and thus unlimited charges of your ward as long as you have the time to charge it.