The cleric received a huge damage buff thanks to blessed strikes and the ability to recover first level spell slots, the warlock, sorcerer, bards and druid received many of the wizard's most powerful spells like mirror image, slow, maze, cone of cold, incediary cloud and animate dead, all that is left to the wizard are just some situational utility spells.
What's its even the point of playng the wizard now that the other classes have all your best spells plus stronger class abilities and subclasses?
I disagree with Bunsenburner03. I am not arguing the merits of the classes as a whole, I amliterally arguing one thing: a class that can access any spell on its list has an advantage over one that cannot. This UA makes it from only two prepared casters that could access any spell on a long rest to every class but the wizard. It seems unfairly punishing to a single class.
One Word: differentiate. It's not like ANY other Spellcasting class has gained access to all this spells in your list. For example, the Bard has ganeid Maze, the sorcerer has gained foresight. So each class has gained some spells to their list. This is not a big deal at all. Sure i would wish for transmuters to get the awesome spell heat metal, but i guess you can't have everything, right?
Spell versatility is not a huge beast. Sorcerer or bards can swap their whole spells in a long enough downtime. A Wizard needs 1 rest. So in an ongoing adventure it is way more likely, that your wizard will have the right spellset at any given time, while the other classes need multiple rests to get that needed spellcombo going.
Don't compare the wizard with each spellcaster at once. Your comparison looks like this: Wizard vs. (Cleric/Sorcerer/Bard/Warlock) In this comparrison the wizard will alway lose, but no class could compete to this. It should look like this (if needed in the first place): wizard vs. cleric (Cleric may have mor spells prepard but the Spellset is way more narrow than the wizards List. Really bad comparrison at all in my opinion, becaus different Roles at all) wizard vs. Bard (Available Spellset is massive bigger than the Bards list, with more options in a lot of Directions. Bad Comparrison in my oponion, because very different classes) wizard vs. Sorcerer (with over ten more different spells prepared, way better prepared for different situations, but no sorcery points) wizard vs. Warlock (Way more flexible, but less DPS)
Dunno I still feel that the few exclusive spells that the wizard has don't make up for the lackluster class features and subclasses. Especially The subclasses simply don't offer enough, I think they should give a bit more to make them feel more substantial but everyone here have a hate boner for wizards so good luck on buffs coming in that regard.
Let me preface this with a couple of things; I love Wizard and will continue to play it if it never got any additions for the rest of the edition. I also like the variants that have been presented and hope they make it into some future product. With that said, let me try to shed some light.
4th Level Wizard vs 4th Level Sorcerer - Wizard with 18 INT has 4 cantrips and a total of 12 spells within their spellbook, a minimum of 8 of them being 1st level, able to prepare up to 8 of the spells. Sorcerer with 18 CHA has 5 cantrips and 5 spells known, a minimum of 1 of them being 1st level. With a long rest, the Wizard can swap out 4 of their spells for the other 4 that are unprepared. The Sorcerer can switch 1 spell of the same level, choosing between 60 spells, if I counted correctly. Another long rest, the Wizard has nothing new to prepare (not to say that they won't prepare a new list as it is called for but I digress) and the Sorcerer can swap once again not limited to the spell swapped earlier. With 5 long rests, a Sorcerer can have 5 brand new spells, and the Wizard has 8 of the same 12. So, with versatility in mind, what’s superior? 1 from 60 per long rest or 8 of 12?
Next matter. When it is argued that it’s DM fiat whether or not the Wizard gets scrolls or additional books, I believe we’re missing part of the idea. There are many factors at play. Is the world like Eberron where you can go to the local book store and pick up a scroll? Or a different world that hoards it’s magical items and knowledge, causing an uncommon scroll to become rare or very rare? Is the spell in a spellbook or a spell scroll? If it’s a scroll, what if the Sorcerer in the party wants it to augment their limited selection? Does the Wizard have the gold to purchase the materials required to copy it down? Are the materials even readily available to purchase for the Wizard? Do they have the time? All of these factors are DM fiat. But what’s missing, the factor I have failed to see articulated yet is the fact that the Wizard becomes the only primary spellcaster without access to their entire list without cost. All casters must do something to change their spells, preparation casters must long rest and take the time to prepare their spells, knowers must level up.
To illustrate the above concept, let’s change the Sorcerer in the previous example to a Cleric. 4th Level Wizard vs 4th Level Cleric - Wizard with 18 INT has 4 cantrips and a total of 12 spells within their spellbook, a minimum of 8 of them being 1st level, able to prepare up to 8 of the spells. Cleric with 18 WIS has 4 cantrips and can prepare 8 out of 33. To enable the Wizard to have the same selection, not taking the discount from the School selection into account, must spend a minimum of 42 hours and 1,050 gp worth of materials. BUT, this only allows the Wizard to select from 29 1st Level spells and 4 2nd Level spells, while the Cleric chooses from 16 1st Level and 17 2nd Level spells with a single short rest.
Some pro’s of the Wizard:
Ritual casting without having to prepare the spells is unique to the Wizard and a powerful boon, though having a niche ritual spell taking up space in potentially limited spells known make this a pro in good-case scenarios.
True overall spell list of the Wizard is by far my favorite. The number on it is huge and the quality of them is very high. Throw in the Wizard-specific spells to make it even better. If the Wizard had access to its entire spell list, which I’m not saying it can’t potentially or that it necessarily should, it would be the unrivaled utility caster.
So simple, just about any magical theme can be played with it.
Whataboutism is not a good argument. "What about a world in which magic is limited?" If your DM trims down a class feature of a core rulebook by large margin and won't grant you a lot of Spellbooks/scrolls (aka spells) to draw upon as a wizard but on the other hand allow spell versatility to take place, congratulations! In this Szenario you're totaly right! A Sorcerer is officially the better spellcaster, because your DM allows an optional ua-testrule, which counteracts to his Campaignsetting. Needles to say, that this DM might be a jerk. Just for the sake of reason. If you play a low magic campaign-setting but allow the wizard as a class just be aware that your PC's are the heroes of this world. If your setting is like Camelot or middleearth, your wizards will be like Merlin or Gandalf. DM's have one job. Make players enjoy their charakters. You're sitting on the same table to have fun.
And if the number of spells in a spellbook is DM fiat, then thats also true for allowing an optional rule from ua or taking rests all the time to switch back and forth in the really small number of prepared spells for a sorcerer. Even more this must be allowed by the Group. Wasting time should never be rewarded. If my players waste time because the Sorcerers needs 3 rests for beeing well prepared, i will come up with some punishment, either with the narrative (The village you would come to rescue was destroyed in the last 24 hours while you jerks just take some naps) or by forging a more difficult encounter (The Beholders spies have detected your Camp in which you slept a day and was aware of your "surprise attack"...). But his is all whataboutism and is highly situational.
If i would play a sorcerer as a player, and i switch one of my very, very valuable 5 spells for one situational needed spell, this will trim down my capability of flexible acting in the next encounters by a huge margin. Maybe i have to switch misty step, mirror Image, hold Person or what not and therefore giving up my element of protection/Battlefield Control/Movement in the upcoming encounters. A Wizard with 8 Spells prepared at this Time don't loose as much flexibility. In my Opinion the number of prepared spells is way more important for the feeling of the class than it's ability to swap out spells (which is also awesome). Some anecdotes or player based limitations are no reasonable arguments for the class evaluation as a whole.
I think they should make writing spells into your spellbook cost no Money/time and add some variants abilities for the savant abilities the phb wizards get at level 2 which feel kinda useless.
Personally i'd like to see some sort of bonus to the appropriate spells, like a +2 to DC/roll or advantage/disadvantage for rolling/resisting them.
You're actually wrong, the sorcerer can convert sorcery points into spell slots and the warlock regain all spell slots on short rest.
sorry not even close; arcane recovery recovers spell slots, SP power metamagic so that ability to create slots means you loose your class identity's core feature, explain how that happens to a wizard with arcane recovery?
A sorcerer at level 20 has 20 points that can be used to recover spells or for other things without the need for a short rest. A wizard at level 20 can recover 10 levels and must perform a short rest. Also, whether or not he uses those ten levels he can only do so once per longrest. And in no case can he go beyond level 5 like the sorcerer.
I think the sorcerer stands to gain from this case.
In any case, the central theme of this thread is not that.
Of all that I have read in this my one and only conclusion is...
That I will likely cut the cost for wizards adding spells to their book if I am allowing other classes to change out spell slots. I kinda love this ua, if for no other reason because people have such wildly different opinions on it.
I see the arguments about the loss of spell identity and the perceived loss of power with other classes getting the wizard exclusive spells. I mean it didn't make the wizard weaker. It made other classes have more options, sometimes it is made to seem like these boards and stuff are always going to be taking these wizardly spells and somehow ruin the game. They probably wont, and everything will be fine even if they do. The theory fights will amount to nothing, people will play how they wanna play.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If you make everyone stronger except the wizard they automatically become weaker even if you don't actually nerf them, It's not that hard to understand.
No that's actually not how additive versatility works.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Guys, I play a wizard. This UA doesn't nerf the wizard.
Despite how much you whine and complain and scream, the wizard is still the most versatile caster.
Yes, the wizard doesn't have access to their full spell list when they take a long rest. That's a good thing.
The wizard spell list is so much larger than the sorcerer's spell list, it is ridiculous. Yes, now the sorcerer can know charm person instead of chromatic orb? The wizard had 18 different other options on a day, didn't have to be restricted by levels, and MORE if the DM lets you copy spells down into your spellbook.
The problem with this U.A is that it gives all the other classes some huge buffs while the wizard gets absolutely nothing, so it's like an indirect nerf. Take for example the evocation wizard and compare it with any cleric, now the cleric does more damage with both spells and cantrips and has a better AC, hit dice, saves and stronger subclasses, so why should i play a wizard instead of a cleric?
this is simply not true.
The cleric received a huge damage buff thanks to blessed strikes and the ability to recover first level spell slots, the warlock, sorcerer, bards and druid received many of the wizard's most powerful spells like mirror image, slow, maze, cone of cold, incediary cloud and animate dead, all that is left to the wizard are just some situational utility spells.
What's its even the point of playng the wizard now that the other classes have all your best spells plus stronger class abilities and subclasses?
I disagree with Bunsenburner03. I am not arguing the merits of the classes as a whole, I amliterally arguing one thing: a class that can access any spell on its list has an advantage over one that cannot. This UA makes it from only two prepared casters that could access any spell on a long rest to every class but the wizard. It seems unfairly punishing to a single class.
One Word: differentiate.
It's not like ANY other Spellcasting class has gained access to all this spells in your list.
For example, the Bard has ganeid Maze, the sorcerer has gained foresight. So each class has gained some spells to their list. This is not a big deal at all. Sure i would wish for transmuters to get the awesome spell heat metal, but i guess you can't have everything, right?
Spell versatility is not a huge beast. Sorcerer or bards can swap their whole spells in a long enough downtime. A Wizard needs 1 rest. So in an ongoing adventure it is way more likely, that your wizard will have the right spellset at any given time, while the other classes need multiple rests to get that needed spellcombo going.
Don't compare the wizard with each spellcaster at once. Your comparison looks like this:
Wizard vs. (Cleric/Sorcerer/Bard/Warlock)
In this comparrison the wizard will alway lose, but no class could compete to this.
It should look like this (if needed in the first place):
wizard vs. cleric (Cleric may have mor spells prepard but the Spellset is way more narrow than the wizards List. Really bad comparrison at all in my opinion, becaus different Roles at all)
wizard vs. Bard (Available Spellset is massive bigger than the Bards list, with more options in a lot of Directions. Bad Comparrison in my oponion, because very different classes)
wizard vs. Sorcerer (with over ten more different spells prepared, way better prepared for different situations, but no sorcery points)
wizard vs. Warlock (Way more flexible, but less DPS)
Dunno I still feel that the few exclusive spells that the wizard has don't make up for the lackluster class features and subclasses. Especially The subclasses simply don't offer enough, I think they should give a bit more to make them feel more substantial but everyone here have a hate boner for wizards so good luck on buffs coming in that regard.
Let me preface this with a couple of things; I love Wizard and will continue to play it if it never got any additions for the rest of the edition. I also like the variants that have been presented and hope they make it into some future product. With that said, let me try to shed some light.
4th Level Wizard vs 4th Level Sorcerer - Wizard with 18 INT has 4 cantrips and a total of 12 spells within their spellbook, a minimum of 8 of them being 1st level, able to prepare up to 8 of the spells. Sorcerer with 18 CHA has 5 cantrips and 5 spells known, a minimum of 1 of them being 1st level. With a long rest, the Wizard can swap out 4 of their spells for the other 4 that are unprepared. The Sorcerer can switch 1 spell of the same level, choosing between 60 spells, if I counted correctly. Another long rest, the Wizard has nothing new to prepare (not to say that they won't prepare a new list as it is called for but I digress) and the Sorcerer can swap once again not limited to the spell swapped earlier. With 5 long rests, a Sorcerer can have 5 brand new spells, and the Wizard has 8 of the same 12. So, with versatility in mind, what’s superior? 1 from 60 per long rest or 8 of 12?
Next matter. When it is argued that it’s DM fiat whether or not the Wizard gets scrolls or additional books, I believe we’re missing part of the idea. There are many factors at play. Is the world like Eberron where you can go to the local book store and pick up a scroll? Or a different world that hoards it’s magical items and knowledge, causing an uncommon scroll to become rare or very rare? Is the spell in a spellbook or a spell scroll? If it’s a scroll, what if the Sorcerer in the party wants it to augment their limited selection? Does the Wizard have the gold to purchase the materials required to copy it down? Are the materials even readily available to purchase for the Wizard? Do they have the time? All of these factors are DM fiat. But what’s missing, the factor I have failed to see articulated yet is the fact that the Wizard becomes the only primary spellcaster without access to their entire list without cost. All casters must do something to change their spells, preparation casters must long rest and take the time to prepare their spells, knowers must level up.
To illustrate the above concept, let’s change the Sorcerer in the previous example to a Cleric. 4th Level Wizard vs 4th Level Cleric - Wizard with 18 INT has 4 cantrips and a total of 12 spells within their spellbook, a minimum of 8 of them being 1st level, able to prepare up to 8 of the spells. Cleric with 18 WIS has 4 cantrips and can prepare 8 out of 33. To enable the Wizard to have the same selection, not taking the discount from the School selection into account, must spend a minimum of 42 hours and 1,050 gp worth of materials. BUT, this only allows the Wizard to select from 29 1st Level spells and 4 2nd Level spells, while the Cleric chooses from 16 1st Level and 17 2nd Level spells with a single short rest.
Some pro’s of the Wizard:
Ritual casting without having to prepare the spells is unique to the Wizard and a powerful boon, though having a niche ritual spell taking up space in potentially limited spells known make this a pro in good-case scenarios.
True overall spell list of the Wizard is by far my favorite. The number on it is huge and the quality of them is very high. Throw in the Wizard-specific spells to make it even better. If the Wizard had access to its entire spell list, which I’m not saying it can’t potentially or that it necessarily should, it would be the unrivaled utility caster.
So simple, just about any magical theme can be played with it.
also do not forget the wizard gets the most spell slots via arcane recovery no other arcane caster gets a feature like that.
Whataboutism is not a good argument.
"What about a world in which magic is limited?"
If your DM trims down a class feature of a core rulebook by large margin and won't grant you a lot of Spellbooks/scrolls (aka spells) to draw upon as a wizard but on the other hand allow spell versatility to take place, congratulations! In this Szenario you're totaly right! A Sorcerer is officially the better spellcaster, because your DM allows an optional ua-testrule, which counteracts to his Campaignsetting. Needles to say, that this DM might be a jerk.
Just for the sake of reason. If you play a low magic campaign-setting but allow the wizard as a class just be aware that your PC's are the heroes of this world. If your setting is like Camelot or middleearth, your wizards will be like Merlin or Gandalf. DM's have one job. Make players enjoy their charakters. You're sitting on the same table to have fun.
And if the number of spells in a spellbook is DM fiat, then thats also true for allowing an optional rule from ua or taking rests all the time to switch back and forth in the really small number of prepared spells for a sorcerer. Even more this must be allowed by the Group. Wasting time should never be rewarded. If my players waste time because the Sorcerers needs 3 rests for beeing well prepared, i will come up with some punishment, either with the narrative (The village you would come to rescue was destroyed in the last 24 hours while you jerks just take some naps) or by forging a more difficult encounter (The Beholders spies have detected your Camp in which you slept a day and was aware of your "surprise attack"...). But his is all whataboutism and is highly situational.
If i would play a sorcerer as a player, and i switch one of my very, very valuable 5 spells for one situational needed spell, this will trim down my capability of flexible acting in the next encounters by a huge margin. Maybe i have to switch misty step, mirror Image, hold Person or what not and therefore giving up my element of protection/Battlefield Control/Movement in the upcoming encounters. A Wizard with 8 Spells prepared at this Time don't loose as much flexibility. In my Opinion the number of prepared spells is way more important for the feeling of the class than it's ability to swap out spells (which is also awesome).
Some anecdotes or player based limitations are no reasonable arguments for the class evaluation as a whole.
You're actually wrong, the sorcerer can convert sorcery points into spell slots and the warlock regain all spell slots on short rest.
I think they should make writing spells into your spellbook cost no Money/time and add some variants abilities for the savant abilities the phb wizards get at level 2 which feel kinda useless.
Personally i'd like to see some sort of bonus to the appropriate spells, like a +2 to DC/roll or advantage/disadvantage for rolling/resisting them.
sorry not even close; arcane recovery recovers spell slots, SP power metamagic so that ability to create slots means you loose your class identity's core feature, explain how that happens to a wizard with arcane recovery?
A sorcerer at level 20 has 20 points that can be used to recover spells or for other things without the need for a short rest. A wizard at level 20 can recover 10 levels and must perform a short rest. Also, whether or not he uses those ten levels he can only do so once per longrest. And in no case can he go beyond level 5 like the sorcerer.
I think the sorcerer stands to gain from this case.
In any case, the central theme of this thread is not that.
"Esta perfecta melodía que acompasa y guía mi movimiento es la voz de mi compañera Aegnor"
Gowther Irerath, El'Tael de los Fragmentos Extraordinarios.
Of all that I have read in this my one and only conclusion is...
That I will likely cut the cost for wizards adding spells to their book if I am allowing other classes to change out spell slots. I kinda love this ua, if for no other reason because people have such wildly different opinions on it.
I see the arguments about the loss of spell identity and the perceived loss of power with other classes getting the wizard exclusive spells. I mean it didn't make the wizard weaker. It made other classes have more options, sometimes it is made to seem like these boards and stuff are always going to be taking these wizardly spells and somehow ruin the game. They probably wont, and everything will be fine even if they do. The theory fights will amount to nothing, people will play how they wanna play.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
If you make everyone stronger except the wizard they automatically become weaker even if you don't actually nerf them, It's not that hard to understand.
No that's actually not how additive versatility works.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
But that's their only class feature(not including subclasses), until of course they reach 17th level. If anything, I think we should bump it up...
Guys, I play a wizard.
This UA doesn't nerf the wizard.
Despite how much you whine and complain and scream, the wizard is still the most versatile caster.
Yes, the wizard doesn't have access to their full spell list when they take a long rest. That's a good thing.
The wizard spell list is so much larger than the sorcerer's spell list, it is ridiculous. Yes, now the sorcerer can know charm person instead of chromatic orb? The wizard had 18 different other options on a day, didn't have to be restricted by levels, and MORE if the DM lets you copy spells down into your spellbook.
(And the sorcerer DOES get the most spell slots, sorcery points are just reworded spell points, this is by design)
I will agree that sorcerers shouldn't get foresight tho, that is broken with metamagic.
The problem with this U.A is that it gives all the other classes some huge buffs while the wizard gets absolutely nothing, so it's like an indirect nerf. Take for example the evocation wizard and compare it with any cleric, now the cleric does more damage with both spells and cantrips and has a better AC, hit dice, saves and stronger subclasses, so why should i play a wizard instead of a cleric?
Because they’re fun to play.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting