If I’m facing a... bandit idk, in a dungeon ( or any place with closed walls ), the situation is : we are face to face and I want to attack him from behind for the rogue’s assassination critical, ( let’s say I have access to the spell misty step ), If I go behind him and hit him, does it count as a surprise? My logic is that, he is expecting a strike from the front, so he would be leaning and pointing his shield in that direction, thereby giving me the opportunity to surprise him. I might be wrong about this.
You can't surprise a creature that's already in combat and not surprised already. Once a creature is in combat, it can't become surprised
D&D, by default, doesn't have a concept of 'behind'; it's assumed everyone in a fight is maintaining all around situational awareness. They're not necessarily looking in every direction at once, but constantly glancing around, listening, paying attention to their peripherals etc
Surprise is the result of not being aware combat is about to happen, which is determined by the DM. That's the only way to become surprised. A character stops being surprised (if they were surprised in the first place!) at the end of their first turn, no matter what (and yes, that's the first turn - they do get that turn, even if surprised characters can't really do anything with it). This means that to attack a creature while it's surprised, not only does it have to be unaware combat will start in order to be surprised on that first turn but you also have to beat it in initiative: if its initiative comes up before yours, surprise is lost before you get to act.
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This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
Yeah, firing off the assassins ability takes work and help from the DM. It's satisfying when it does go off though
That is a good point....maybe the focus is that it doesn't go off often but when it does its super satisfying? If that is the take and the PC wanted it that way I would for sure support.
I understand the surprise system and why they have it but agree that it is unrealistic for some situations. As a DM I rely more on ad hoc adjudications of 'awareness'. Even if combat has started, if the assassin was hidden and remained so, then chose on a later round to jump out of hiding and attack - I still grant them all the benefits of their Assassinate ability, but now the enemies are aware so they'll unlikely gain it again this combat. This allows the feature to be used in more situations but remain once per combat as intended for balancing. There can be situations where after assassinating a guard there are other guards nearby who remain unaware (did not hear/see anything) who could be assassinated again - again relying more on the target's awareness of the assassin rather than a clunky surprise condition. I would also houserule that the surprised condition lasts until the end of the round, not the end of a target's turn. This way assassins aren't shafted by an initiative die roll when, realistically, they'd still be surprised due to combat starting without them realising it has. It also ensures ambushes actually feel like such.
As for misty step - if you were hidden then suddenly misty stepped out behind the target and attack, I'd let you surprise the target. If you were already in combat and just misty-stepped from in front of them to behind them, then no there'd be no special benefit. Basically, I'd allow surprise in a realistic way but not let you cheese a 2nd level spell for extra benefit 'just coz'.
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I understand the surprise system and why they have it but agree that it is unrealistic for some situations. As a DM I rely more on ad hoc adjudications of 'awareness'. Even if combat has started, if the assassin was hidden and remained so, then chose on a later round to jump out of hiding and attack - I still grant them all the benefits of their Assassinate ability, but now the enemies are aware so they'll unlikely gain it again this combat. This allows the feature to be used in more situations but remain once per combat as intended for balancing. There can be situations where after assassinating a guard there are other guards nearby who remain unaware (did not hear/see anything) who could be assassinated again - again relying more on the target's awareness of the assassin rather than a clunky surprise condition. I would also houserule that the surprised condition lasts until the end of the round, not the end of a target's turn. This way assassins aren't shafted by an initiative die roll when, realistically, they'd still be surprised due to combat starting without them realising it has. It also ensures ambushes actually feel like such.
As for misty step - if you were hidden then suddenly misty stepped out behind the target and attack, I'd let you surprise the target. If you were already in combat and just misty-stepped from in front of them to behind them, then no there'd be no special benefit. Basically, I'd allow surprise in a realistic way but not let you cheese a 2nd level spell for extra benefit 'just coz'.
I generally take this approach as well and let the PC be creative with it.
I do a skill contest approach: Once per combat you can attempt to deceive/beguile/out maneuver an opponent to get the upper hand. Pick a skill you are proficient in and describe to me how you use it to gain the upper hand on your enemy.
Acrobatics: "I slide under the Ogre and strike at a tendon as I do" I would have the PC roll Acrobatics vs the Creatures ATH or Acrobatics
Deception: "I fake an injury to let them get close before I stab them in the neck" Roll deception vs their insight
Sleight of Hand: "I stab at them with the rapier...but try to hide the dagger I am really attacking with in my off hand" Sleight of Hand vs Perception
If they succeed then they get the assassinate ability. If they fail they can still attack as normal but without the benefit.
This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
While you can't normally get sneak attack or advantage using misty step, but it is very useful for acquiring flanking bonus. Advantage and sneak attack? Heck yea
This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
Yeah, my problem with that is that this means you can't cast most spells out of combat either.
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This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
Yeah, my problem with that is that this means you can't cast most spells out of combat either.
Well I think you still can as the Ready action is explicitly for combat while spells are routinely cast outside of combat. Overall its murky I agree and the approach is hard to land on what the overall intent was for spells in particular.
For ready it seems pretty clear they wanted it to be in combat after initiative was rolled and for some reason never thought that people might use it outside of combat so didn't address until JC did.
Overall giving the players an extra round of Action Economy is harder to balance IMO as they generally have that advantage already. Surprised seems to be enough IMO to aid them as you are already giving them a big advantage that the creatures that are surprised do not get to act on their first turn.
This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
Yeah, my problem with that is that this means you can't cast most spells out of combat either.
Well I think you still can as the Ready action is explicitly for combat while spells are routinely cast outside of combat. Overall its murky I agree and the approach is hard to land on what the overall intent was for spells in particular.
For ready it seems pretty clear they wanted it to be in combat after initiative was rolled and for some reason never thought that people might use it outside of combat so didn't address until JC did.
Overall giving the players an extra round of Action Economy is harder to balance IMO as they generally have that advantage already. Surprised seems to be enough IMO to aid them as you are already giving them a big advantage that the creatures that are surprised do not get to act on their first turn.
"The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative." Cast a spell is the second such option in that section. Readying is arguably something that can be done routinely out of combat, particularly right before combat, as well - springing a trap, acting on a signal, coordinating actions, etc.
I readily admit that's a bit pedantic though. And if used on a regular basis readying outside combat is a bit too good, so best to use some judgment in any case.
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This allows the feature to be used in more situations but remain once per combat as intended for balancing.
I don't think Assassinate was intended to be used once an encounter at all, at least not the crit part. It's a very strong feature that is intended to be balanced by being difficult to pull off.
Looking at the rest of their abilities, assassins are built to be sneaking around on their own, eliminating guards one by one. In a case like that, I think the rogue can get a lot of use from the ability. But granting it in every traditional combat scenario feels a lot stronger than what most class features seem to be aiming for.
This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
Yeah, my problem with that is that this means you can't cast most spells out of combat either.
Well I think you still can as the Ready action is explicitly for combat while spells are routinely cast outside of combat. Overall its murky I agree and the approach is hard to land on what the overall intent was for spells in particular.
For ready it seems pretty clear they wanted it to be in combat after initiative was rolled and for some reason never thought that people might use it outside of combat so didn't address until JC did.
Overall giving the players an extra round of Action Economy is harder to balance IMO as they generally have that advantage already. Surprised seems to be enough IMO to aid them as you are already giving them a big advantage that the creatures that are surprised do not get to act on their first turn.
"The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative." Cast a spell is the second such option in that section. Readying is arguably something that can be done routinely out of combat, particularly right before combat, as well - springing a trap, acting on a signal, coordinating actions, etc.
I readily admit that's a bit pedantic though. And if used on a regular basis readying outside combat is a bit too good, so best to use some judgment in any case.
Pardon, but since surprise does not end until the end of the first round of any given opponent, even though you are visible, surprise has not actually ended yet.
Suprise ends, for a given character, when it gets its first turn. Not at the end of the round.
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One of the things I find unfortunate about the Assassinate ability is that, even if the dice go your way, the plan somehow came together and you get that all important stealth roll to approach the target.... rolling lower initiative than the Guard means all that work for that sweet Assassinate is for nothing.
It's a shame; the ability itself is awesome, but it's situational and depends very much on achieving a high initiative roll.
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If I’m facing a... bandit idk, in a dungeon ( or any place with closed walls ), the situation is : we are face to face and I want to attack him from behind for the rogue’s assassination critical, ( let’s say I have access to the spell misty step ), If I go behind him and hit him, does it count as a surprise? My logic is that, he is expecting a strike from the front, so he would be leaning and pointing his shield in that direction, thereby giving me the opportunity to surprise him. I might be wrong about this.
You can't surprise a creature that's already in combat and not surprised already. Once a creature is in combat, it can't become surprised
D&D, by default, doesn't have a concept of 'behind'; it's assumed everyone in a fight is maintaining all around situational awareness. They're not necessarily looking in every direction at once, but constantly glancing around, listening, paying attention to their peripherals etc
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Surprise is the result of not being aware combat is about to happen, which is determined by the DM. That's the only way to become surprised. A character stops being surprised (if they were surprised in the first place!) at the end of their first turn, no matter what (and yes, that's the first turn - they do get that turn, even if surprised characters can't really do anything with it). This means that to attack a creature while it's surprised, not only does it have to be unaware combat will start in order to be surprised on that first turn but you also have to beat it in initiative: if its initiative comes up before yours, surprise is lost before you get to act.
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This is why I find the Assassination ability mechanically difficult and clunky. It has a specific way it has to work and it relies on several things falling into place exactly to make it work...and its suppose to be a core feature of the subclass.
Generally I work with an assassin rogue to modify the ability to something that procs a little more often.
Yeah, firing off the assassins ability takes work and help from the DM. It's satisfying when it does go off though
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That is a good point....maybe the focus is that it doesn't go off often but when it does its super satisfying? If that is the take and the PC wanted it that way I would for sure support.
I understand the surprise system and why they have it but agree that it is unrealistic for some situations. As a DM I rely more on ad hoc adjudications of 'awareness'. Even if combat has started, if the assassin was hidden and remained so, then chose on a later round to jump out of hiding and attack - I still grant them all the benefits of their Assassinate ability, but now the enemies are aware so they'll unlikely gain it again this combat. This allows the feature to be used in more situations but remain once per combat as intended for balancing. There can be situations where after assassinating a guard there are other guards nearby who remain unaware (did not hear/see anything) who could be assassinated again - again relying more on the target's awareness of the assassin rather than a clunky surprise condition. I would also houserule that the surprised condition lasts until the end of the round, not the end of a target's turn. This way assassins aren't shafted by an initiative die roll when, realistically, they'd still be surprised due to combat starting without them realising it has. It also ensures ambushes actually feel like such.
As for misty step - if you were hidden then suddenly misty stepped out behind the target and attack, I'd let you surprise the target. If you were already in combat and just misty-stepped from in front of them to behind them, then no there'd be no special benefit. Basically, I'd allow surprise in a realistic way but not let you cheese a 2nd level spell for extra benefit 'just coz'.
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I generally take this approach as well and let the PC be creative with it.
I do a skill contest approach: Once per combat you can attempt to deceive/beguile/out maneuver an opponent to get the upper hand. Pick a skill you are proficient in and describe to me how you use it to gain the upper hand on your enemy.
Acrobatics: "I slide under the Ogre and strike at a tendon as I do" I would have the PC roll Acrobatics vs the Creatures ATH or Acrobatics
Deception: "I fake an injury to let them get close before I stab them in the neck" Roll deception vs their insight
Sleight of Hand: "I stab at them with the rapier...but try to hide the dagger I am really attacking with in my off hand" Sleight of Hand vs Perception
If they succeed then they get the assassinate ability. If they fail they can still attack as normal but without the benefit.
It appears to be made for ambush-style assassinations, not really for regular encounters. I prefer going with the Ready action. You can take actions out of combat, so without initiative being rolled - use that action to ready an attack when a trigger determined by your ambush setup occurs and you circumvent the entire initiative mechanic, guaranteeing surprise. This doesn't prevent the Assassinate ability from occasionally proc'ing in other encounters and it ensures it works when it should. It might actually be a little too good, if it's easy to get the drop on enemies.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
RAW you cannot ready outside of combat https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/778650357824040961?lang=en
If you allow that is fine and generally I think this ends up being the norm for a lot of groups but I do not do it myself as I usually have at least one player who picks the Alert feat and I do not want them to feel like the feat is worthless.
I just make the ability be a little more fluid in how it works to encourage creativity during the combat too....but thats my approach. If the ready action works for you guys then I am all for that.
While you can't normally get sneak attack or advantage using misty step, but it is very useful for acquiring flanking bonus. Advantage and sneak attack? Heck yea
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Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
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Extended Signature
Yeah, my problem with that is that this means you can't cast most spells out of combat either.
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Well I think you still can as the Ready action is explicitly for combat while spells are routinely cast outside of combat. Overall its murky I agree and the approach is hard to land on what the overall intent was for spells in particular.
For ready it seems pretty clear they wanted it to be in combat after initiative was rolled and for some reason never thought that people might use it outside of combat so didn't address until JC did.
Overall giving the players an extra round of Action Economy is harder to balance IMO as they generally have that advantage already. Surprised seems to be enough IMO to aid them as you are already giving them a big advantage that the creatures that are surprised do not get to act on their first turn.
"The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative." Cast a spell is the second such option in that section. Readying is arguably something that can be done routinely out of combat, particularly right before combat, as well - springing a trap, acting on a signal, coordinating actions, etc.
I readily admit that's a bit pedantic though. And if used on a regular basis readying outside combat is a bit too good, so best to use some judgment in any case.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't think Assassinate was intended to be used once an encounter at all, at least not the crit part. It's a very strong feature that is intended to be balanced by being difficult to pull off.
Looking at the rest of their abilities, assassins are built to be sneaking around on their own, eliminating guards one by one. In a case like that, I think the rogue can get a lot of use from the ability. But granting it in every traditional combat scenario feels a lot stronger than what most class features seem to be aiming for.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Seems like a fair approach to me!
Suprise ends, for a given character, when it gets its first turn. Not at the end of the round.
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One of the things I find unfortunate about the Assassinate ability is that, even if the dice go your way, the plan somehow came together and you get that all important stealth roll to approach the target.... rolling lower initiative than the Guard means all that work for that sweet Assassinate is for nothing.
It's a shame; the ability itself is awesome, but it's situational and depends very much on achieving a high initiative roll.
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I feel like people are forgetting that there's such a thing as setting an ambush.
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My homebrew stuff:
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I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Yeah that's the thing is that even if you set an ambush, successful sneak, and manage to hit you still have to beat them in initiative.
The subclass doesn't give you a bonus to that so it's likely you will go after enemies a lot