I’m talking about Weird, True Strike, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Frost Fingers, etc.
What is the business process that WotC is stuck with which forces them to not adequately review these spells and spells like them?
sometimes it simply clumsiness or overcompesentation (in the case of true strike) most of the time it´s the fact that they do not have infinite time
and believe or not,not every spell can be top tier as a matter of fact i would considering how fast wotc puts out content they have an amazing track record when it comes to avoiding this.
their is no problem with wotc they just only have so many people that actually work in mechanics (the biggest deparment is playtest proccessing for petes sake)
Sometimes spells aren't balanced/built for players, but rather NPCs.
That said, I think it would be really interesting if WoTC released a NPC-exclusive spell list as a parallel to monster exclusive abilities. Undoubtedly there would be an attempt to merge the list for player use, but as long as they were organized appropriately, it might not be an issue. (e.g. Tie the spells to CR or "Tiers", rather than spell level, so that there is no implied Spell Level equivalency. That would leave it up to the Player/DM to negotiate how to adapt it.)
Weird, the AoE version of Phantasmal Killer is really sad for a 9th level spell. The damage is puny, it is easily saved against, and a save stops the effect. The Frightened condition isn't of any great use if your primary action is used up in Concentration.
True Striker also suffers from being a Concentration spell.
Same problem with Mordenkainen's Sword. Concentration.
Frost Fingers? What's wrong with that? The only problem I see with the spell is the odd name. It looks like Cone Of Cold's little sibling, and I suppose one of them should be called Cone Of Frost instead..
Wizards and Sorcerers do poorly in melee combat. Their lack of armor and minimal hit points makes them vulnerable. If they personally want to deal out damage, they want to be back out of range of the folks with the weapons. Having to Concentrate means they cannot even take the Help action, which would be of some use, although interestingly enough, I believe they can have their Familiar do that for them.
The loss of the old Save Or Die, or Save Until You Die spells made casters considerably less lethal. There's no more Creeping Doom.
Weird, the AoE version of Phantasmal Killer is really sad for a 9th level spell. The damage is puny, it is easily saved against, and a save stops the effect. The Frightened condition isn't of any great use if your primary action is used up in Concentration.
True Striker also suffers from being a Concentration spell.
Same problem with Mordenkainen's Sword. Concentration.
Frost Fingers? What's wrong with that? The only problem I see with the spell is the odd name. It looks like Cone Of Cold's little sibling, and I suppose one of them should be called Cone Of Frost instead..
Wizards and Sorcerers do poorly in melee combat. Their lack of armor and minimal hit points makes them vulnerable. If they personally want to deal out damage, they want to be back out of range of the folks with the weapons. Having to Concentrate means they cannot even take the Help action, which would be of some use, although interestingly enough, I believe they can have their Familiar do that for them.
The loss of the old Save Or Die, or Save Until You Die spells made casters considerably less lethal. There's no more Creeping Doom.
Concentration doesn't prevent the caster from taking other actions, but in the case of spells such as witch bolt, taking an action other than repeating the spell's main effect end the spell, which may be what you're talking about. In addition, it's a whole conversation about whether Familiars should be able to take the Help action (I say no, even though the rules might imply yes).
I think it's a symptom of having to have such long spell lists due to how spell levels work. Since you are making many dips into the same spell levels each time a spellcaster levels, you can just have a huge dump of spells, even though most of them are just bad.
I really liked how spells worked in 4th ed because of this. Every level there was a meaningful choice of like 4-6 spells and each one was balanced for the level the character received them, but also sometimes followed a theme started by spells of a lower level. Also it was super easy to remember what levels spells a certain character level could cast (the same level).
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
The problem is that it creates a situation where a person can be good at character optimization. The problem with a system in which you can be good at character optimization is that there is such a thing as sucking at it. Noobs are mostly going to suck at it. I do not mean that they won't be able to create powerful characters, I mean that they can have problems creating even effective characters. That creates a barrier to entry for new players to the game.
As the most well-known of all RPGs, of all RPGs, I am convinced that DnD should be designed for new players (whatever else it might be designed for in addition to that). That is DnD's chief marketing differential or at least should be.
Honestly, the reason these spells have issues is the Concentration mechanic. It's definitely a necessary fix for certain issues in previous versions of the game (compare, e.g., CoDzilla: "Just give me a few minutes to cast every buff spell under the sun, and I'm more powerful than every member of the party combined. Including myself."), though its ubiquity means that most useful spells have to be directly compared to the single most powerful and/or most effective spell available to you at any given time, because every round spent concentrating on a different spell is a round spent not concentrating on your best spell. And, if we're being truly honest, most spells don't stand up to that sort of rigorous comparison.
That said, some of these spells do still have cases where they're useful, especially if a non-caster gets their hands on 'em. True Strike, for example, would be the perfect spell for a Rogue to use while sneaking up on a target, since it guarantees them advantage even if something breaks their stealth. Frost Fingers is better viewed as a thematic alternative for Burning Hands in most cases, although it's strange that the Sorcerer doesn't get access to it. And Mordenkainen's Sword... is probably something for DMs to put on a magic item if possible, or maybe as a scroll for arcane archetypes to mess around with, or possibly a spell for DMs to give NPC casters so they can dish out the damage and look strong without unleashing any of the actually broken Lv.7 spells?
The problem is that it creates a situation where a person can be good at character optimization. The problem with a system in which you can be good at character optimization is that there is such a thing as sucking at it. Noobs are mostly going to suck at it. I do not mean that they won't be able to create powerful characters, I mean that they can have problems creating even effective characters. That creates a barrier to entry for new players to the game.
The number of spells that are truly awful is so low that a newbie could pick their spells by pulling them out of a hat and not only is there a good chance they didn't draw True Strike or Witch Bolt, they'd probably still have a usable character.
Businesses sometimes make bad decisions. Let me rephrase that. EVERY organization in the history of human history has made at least one bad decision. WOTC made one with the new book. But getting back to the spell issue, it is as simple as WOTC had some legacy stuff they wanted to import from past editions, and they wanted to create more to fill out for what is now 3 PHB equivalents: The PHB, XGTE, and the abomination.
To create fill, if you have some sub-par designers and game-testers on staff, you get stuff like True Strike.
Businesses sometimes make bad decisions. Let me rephrase that. EVERY organization in the history of human history has made at least one bad decision. WOTC made one with the new book. But getting back to the spell issue, it is as simple as WOTC had some legacy stuff they wanted to import from past editions, and they wanted to create more to fill out for what is now 3 PHB equivalents: The PHB, XGTE, and the abomination.
To create fill, if you have some sub-par designers and game-testers on staff, you get stuff like True Strike.
The only difference between Frost Fingers and burning hands - other than the damage type - is one is a dex save and the other is a con save. Both are usable and balanced, I don't see why one would be considered terrible but not the other.
I don't know if it was the designers' intent, but as a DM I like that there are some high level spells that aren't terribly well balanced or lethal. It's something good to give an NPC spellcaster. Weird isn't likely to wipe the party or instant kill someone with no save, but it does create some interesting roleplay moments and shows off the power of a spellcasting NPC.
The only difference between Frost Fingers and burning hands - other than the damage type - is one is a dex save and the other is a con save. Both are usable and balanced, I don't see why one would be considered terrible but not the other.
There is a line of thought by some that if something has an analogue which is strictly better, it's worthless. The other difference between Frost Fingers and Burning Hands is that FF is 2d8 damage and BH is 3d6 damage, which is strictly better. It's a very small thing, but for those who have struggled with the fact that cold spells have lagged behind fire for the entirety of 5e even a tiny twist of the knife can hurt.
Now FF does scale faster when you upcast and its average damage surpasses BH at level 3. But of course at level 3 you have Fireball which is vastly superior to both.
But generally I agree that only True Strike and Witch Bolt are bad enough to require errata. There are some iffy choices that I chalk up to the nostalgia factor of legacy spells, but none of those are going to ruin a noob's character if they take them.
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
My internal rationalization on this is "Even wizards(as in the in game Wizard, not the company) don't get magic right sometimes." We can talk about game balance and how spells influence the world, but not every spell should feel omega useful.
Will I use True Strike? No, but can I understand why it exists? Yeah.
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
Also, cold spells tend to go off constitution saves instead of dex saves, That makes them much more useful against fast enemies, like rogues.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
Now, compare the spell to Thunderwave, which has the same damage, of a better damage type (thunder resistance is less common than cold resistance), in a better shape (15' cube covers more volume than 15' cone), with a secondary effect.
My internal rationalization on this is "Even wizards(as in the in game Wizard, not the company) don't get magic right sometimes." We can talk about game balance and how spells influence the world, but not every spell should feel omega useful.
Will I use True Strike? No, but can I understand why it exists? Yeah.
I don't think any of us here needed Treantmonk to point out to us that, for example, Weird f'in sucks.
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I’m talking about Weird, True Strike, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Frost Fingers, etc.
What is the business process that WotC is stuck with which forces them to not adequately review these spells and spells like them?
sometimes it simply clumsiness or overcompesentation (in the case of true strike) most of the time it´s the fact that they do not have infinite time
and believe or not,not every spell can be top tier as a matter of fact i would considering how fast wotc puts out content they have an amazing track record when it comes to avoiding this.
their is no problem with wotc they just only have so many people that actually work in mechanics (the biggest deparment is playtest proccessing for petes sake)
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
Sometimes spells aren't balanced/built for players, but rather NPCs.
That said, I think it would be really interesting if WoTC released a NPC-exclusive spell list as a parallel to monster exclusive abilities. Undoubtedly there would be an attempt to merge the list for player use, but as long as they were organized appropriately, it might not be an issue. (e.g. Tie the spells to CR or "Tiers", rather than spell level, so that there is no implied Spell Level equivalency. That would leave it up to the Player/DM to negotiate how to adapt it.)
Weird, the AoE version of Phantasmal Killer is really sad for a 9th level spell. The damage is puny, it is easily saved against, and a save stops the effect. The Frightened condition isn't of any great use if your primary action is used up in Concentration.
True Striker also suffers from being a Concentration spell.
Same problem with Mordenkainen's Sword. Concentration.
Frost Fingers? What's wrong with that? The only problem I see with the spell is the odd name. It looks like Cone Of Cold's little sibling, and I suppose one of them should be called Cone Of Frost instead..
Wizards and Sorcerers do poorly in melee combat. Their lack of armor and minimal hit points makes them vulnerable. If they personally want to deal out damage, they want to be back out of range of the folks with the weapons. Having to Concentrate means they cannot even take the Help action, which would be of some use, although interestingly enough, I believe they can have their Familiar do that for them.
The loss of the old Save Or Die, or Save Until You Die spells made casters considerably less lethal. There's no more Creeping Doom.
<Insert clever signature here>
Concentration doesn't prevent the caster from taking other actions, but in the case of spells such as witch bolt, taking an action other than repeating the spell's main effect end the spell, which may be what you're talking about. In addition, it's a whole conversation about whether Familiars should be able to take the Help action (I say no, even though the rules might imply yes).
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My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
It's no where close to being as bad as it was in 2nd or 3rd edition.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think it's a symptom of having to have such long spell lists due to how spell levels work. Since you are making many dips into the same spell levels each time a spellcaster levels, you can just have a huge dump of spells, even though most of them are just bad.
I really liked how spells worked in 4th ed because of this. Every level there was a meaningful choice of like 4-6 spells and each one was balanced for the level the character received them, but also sometimes followed a theme started by spells of a lower level. Also it was super easy to remember what levels spells a certain character level could cast (the same level).
The problem is that it creates a situation where a person can be good at character optimization. The problem with a system in which you can be good at character optimization is that there is such a thing as sucking at it. Noobs are mostly going to suck at it. I do not mean that they won't be able to create powerful characters, I mean that they can have problems creating even effective characters. That creates a barrier to entry for new players to the game.
As the most well-known of all RPGs, of all RPGs, I am convinced that DnD should be designed for new players (whatever else it might be designed for in addition to that). That is DnD's chief marketing differential or at least should be.
Honestly, the reason these spells have issues is the Concentration mechanic. It's definitely a necessary fix for certain issues in previous versions of the game (compare, e.g., CoDzilla: "Just give me a few minutes to cast every buff spell under the sun, and I'm more powerful than every member of the party combined. Including myself."), though its ubiquity means that most useful spells have to be directly compared to the single most powerful and/or most effective spell available to you at any given time, because every round spent concentrating on a different spell is a round spent not concentrating on your best spell. And, if we're being truly honest, most spells don't stand up to that sort of rigorous comparison.
That said, some of these spells do still have cases where they're useful, especially if a non-caster gets their hands on 'em. True Strike, for example, would be the perfect spell for a Rogue to use while sneaking up on a target, since it guarantees them advantage even if something breaks their stealth. Frost Fingers is better viewed as a thematic alternative for Burning Hands in most cases, although it's strange that the Sorcerer doesn't get access to it. And Mordenkainen's Sword... is probably something for DMs to put on a magic item if possible, or maybe as a scroll for arcane archetypes to mess around with, or possibly a spell for DMs to give NPC casters so they can dish out the damage and look strong without unleashing any of the actually broken Lv.7 spells?
The number of spells that are truly awful is so low that a newbie could pick their spells by pulling them out of a hat and not only is there a good chance they didn't draw True Strike or Witch Bolt, they'd probably still have a usable character.
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Businesses sometimes make bad decisions. Let me rephrase that. EVERY organization in the history of human history has made at least one bad decision. WOTC made one with the new book. But getting back to the spell issue, it is as simple as WOTC had some legacy stuff they wanted to import from past editions, and they wanted to create more to fill out for what is now 3 PHB equivalents: The PHB, XGTE, and the abomination.
To create fill, if you have some sub-par designers and game-testers on staff, you get stuff like True Strike.
Stop
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
The only difference between Frost Fingers and burning hands - other than the damage type - is one is a dex save and the other is a con save. Both are usable and balanced, I don't see why one would be considered terrible but not the other.
I don't know if it was the designers' intent, but as a DM I like that there are some high level spells that aren't terribly well balanced or lethal. It's something good to give an NPC spellcaster. Weird isn't likely to wipe the party or instant kill someone with no save, but it does create some interesting roleplay moments and shows off the power of a spellcasting NPC.
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There is a line of thought by some that if something has an analogue which is strictly better, it's worthless. The other difference between Frost Fingers and Burning Hands is that FF is 2d8 damage and BH is 3d6 damage, which is strictly better. It's a very small thing, but for those who have struggled with the fact that cold spells have lagged behind fire for the entirety of 5e even a tiny twist of the knife can hurt.
Now FF does scale faster when you upcast and its average damage surpasses BH at level 3. But of course at level 3 you have Fireball which is vastly superior to both.
But generally I agree that only True Strike and Witch Bolt are bad enough to require errata. There are some iffy choices that I chalk up to the nostalgia factor of legacy spells, but none of those are going to ruin a noob's character if they take them.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
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(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
I too, just watched this video yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9No3TM6SLA
My internal rationalization on this is "Even wizards(as in the in game Wizard, not the company) don't get magic right sometimes." We can talk about game balance and how spells influence the world, but not every spell should feel omega useful.
Will I use True Strike? No, but can I understand why it exists? Yeah.
Also, cold spells tend to go off constitution saves instead of dex saves, That makes them much more useful against fast enemies, like rogues.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Now, compare the spell to Thunderwave, which has the same damage, of a better damage type (thunder resistance is less common than cold resistance), in a better shape (15' cube covers more volume than 15' cone), with a secondary effect.
I don't think any of us here needed Treantmonk to point out to us that, for example, Weird f'in sucks.