Easy question, or maybe not, but one that has me curious. If Mordenkainen was a playable character, what level would he be, and would he be strictly a Wizard, or would he be more of a multiclass?
Thanks
Forge
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
As for class, he arguably has to be a wizard as all of the spells that start with "mordenkainen" are wizard spells.
Interestingly enough, magnificent mansion and sword are both also bard spells, so he could also be played as a bard if you can pick up his other two spells with magical secrets
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Remember that a spell being on a given spell list doesn't mean the creator was that class/subclass (that simply wouldn't make sense)
Mordenkainen was an actual D&D PC at one point (all the named wizards were), and went right up to what would be considered max level now. So the answer is probably 20th level. And he was explicitly a wizard (at least by todays class nomenclature)
Remember that a spell being on a given spell list doesn't mean the creator was that class/subclass (that simply wouldn't make sense).
While you are right, otherwise wouldn't have spells on several different spellcasters lists, the opposite logic was being used and makes sense - he'd have to be a class that can use the spells he created (as opposed to the spells having to be limited to the class of the creator). It makes no sense that a Sorceror would create a spell that only Wizards could use (and therefore the Sorceror could not). While it's not completely watertight logic, it's a good argument.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Mordenkainen was an actual D&D PC at one point (all the named wizards were), and went right up to what would be considered max level now.
I once heard that Tasha wasn’t a character, but a little girl who wrote Gary a letter suggesting a spell that made a person laugh. I’m not trying to do a “gotcha.” I just always liked that story and look for places to share it.
And to the OP: level 20 wizard, no question. Probably one with quite a few epic boons beyond 20, actually. Mordenkainen was Gary’s character/avatar and afaik, he’s only ever been a wizard.
NPCs aren't limited to the same abilities as PCs. If Mordenkainen was a PC (or rather, when Mordenkainen was a PC), he was a max-level wizard. That said, a 20th-level wizard's abilities pale in comparison to what most people attributer to Mordenkainen these days. In game terms he's likely invented a spell that allowed him to break past the twenty-levels limit and gain epic levels/prestige levels/what-have-you levels, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you're the personal character of the game's creator and the rules are literally whatever they need to be for you to exist.
Mordenkainen was an actual D&D PC at one point (all the named wizards were), and went right up to what would be considered max level now.
I once heard that Tasha wasn’t a character, but a little girl who wrote Gary a letter suggesting a spell that made a person laugh. I’m not trying to do a “gotcha.” I just always liked that story and look for places to share it.
And to the OP: level 20 wizard, no question. Probably one with quite a few epic boons beyond 20, actually. Mordenkainen was Gary’s character/avatar and afaik, he’s only ever been a wizard.
NPCs aren't limited to the same abilities as PCs. If Mordenkainen was a PC (or rather, when Mordenkainen was a PC), he was a max-level wizard. That said, a 20th-level wizard's abilities pale in comparison to what most people attributer to Mordenkainen these days. In game terms he's likely invented a spell that allowed him to break past the twenty-levels limit and gain epic levels/prestige levels/what-have-you levels, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you're the personal character of the game's creator and the rules are literally whatever they need to be for you to exist.
Yeah, this is what I consider.
The fact is in prior editions, level was just another construct for player ability and could be completely and utterly broken. 5e has "fixed" that and put in hard limits in an attempt to balance what the DM has to do at high levels. The argument for how that balance works is a different thread, mind you.
To me, a PC of Mord would be the following:
He's an Order of Scribes wizard, mainly for thematics. Dude was was one of the original named wizards and has created more spells than most people have access to. He's a 20th level Wizard with a stat pool of 12 STR, 16 DEX, 30 INT, 22 WIS and 18 CHA. He has prof in all skills, the boons of spell master, spell recall, quick casting, planar travel(to get to ed greenwoods house), magic resistance, high magic, immortality, and dimensional travel. His spellbook literally has every spell in it.
He's carrying too many scrolls to count, a +1 dagger, efreeti bottle, three pearls of power, a bag of holding, various wands, bracers of defense, and a crystal ball.
Feats wise, if it's a spell feat, he probably has it. Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Ritual Caster, Eldritch Adept with Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Fey Touched, Keen Mind, Observant, Linguist, Prodigy(with Arcana obviously), Shadow Touched, and War Caster.
NPCs aren't limited to the same abilities as PCs. If Mordenkainen was a PC (or rather, when Mordenkainen was a PC), he was a max-level wizard. That said, a 20th-level wizard's abilities pale in comparison to what most people attributer to Mordenkainen these days. In game terms he's likely invented a spell that allowed him to break past the twenty-levels limit and gain epic levels/prestige levels/what-have-you levels, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you're the personal character of the game's creator and the rules are literally whatever they need to be for you to exist.
This essentially.
Mordenkainen's actual stats have never been made public by Gary Gygax. Every representation of him in various materials were done by other authors, as Gary didn't control the rights to his own character based on his agreements/contracts with TSR. So there isn't a canonical answer. But it was clear he was a Wizard. There were not sorcerers at the time, nor warlocks, and illusionists hadn't been written either.
Level wise at his apex, at least 20. However he is seen in the Seven Sisters novel as a peer to Elminister, and Elminister has been about 30th level in older editions, assuming they are equivalent in wizard stature. Since we don't have an epic level handbook like we did in 3rd edition for that circumstance, you probably should do a custom stat block, with legendary actions. This is a personage that counts demi-gods (Iuz) as an enemy and Tasha as a ...frenemy? So he deserves a bit more than an average level 20 wizard and its paltry number of spells per day. He also would have magic items galore...as he was before attunements.
Stat wise i'd give him a Str 10, Int 26, Con 14, Wis 16, Chr 16. He wasn't Tenser, who DID like scuffing it in melee (hence Tenser's transformation), but he certainly used wish and other means to increase his mental power (Because that's how you did it in 1st edition; there were no ASI's).
Yup. If Mordenkainen as we currently think of him was a PC, he wouldn't be Mordenkainen anymore. You'd need to break so many PC rules that there'd be no point in using the PC template as a foundation. It's like asking what would Tiamat look like as a PC.
Yup. If Mordenkainen as we currently think of him was a PC, he wouldn't be Mordenkainen anymore. You'd need to break so many PC rules that there'd be no point in using the PC template as a foundation. It's like asking what would Tiamat look like as a PC.
Yeah, it's not like 3rd Edition where they tried to build all PCs and NPCs using the same formula.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Maybe CR 20? He's up there with the maximum casters in the MM, wouldn't be surprised if he was as strong as a Dracolich, or Elder Brain. I doubt he'd measure in levels at all, he might not be as powerful as Ioulaum, but many of the legendary mages in the lore break outside the boundaries of the rules. Like High Magic, it's just a reference in the lore, 5E doesn't have rules for Elves to make Mythals and other 10+ level spells.
Elminster is somewhere up there to, max level wizard plus chosen of Mystra, plus whatever else, he to a dive recently, but there's nothing in the rules to reach his heights either. There's mages like Black Staff who had legendary saves and so on.
5E only presents creatures up to CR30, but there are stronger creatures, and Mordenkainen manipulates reality on a Multiversal scale, so his level is probably something like 30 or 40.
5E only presents creatures up to CR30, but there are stronger creatures, and Mordenkainen manipulates reality on a Multiversal scale, so his level is probably something like 30 or 40.
Mordie's a powerful mage but he's only mortal. He's not the same tier as Tiamat. He's a wizard, not a god.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Set Mord at a 25th level Wizard, increase his spell slots, lvl 1 to lvl 3 +2 slots, and lvl 4+ +1 slots. Give him triple advantage on concentration checks. And don't forget contingency, he shouldn't be killable the first shot by a party.
In reality Gary Gygax had his character at level 13 to 14. You can look at Mord's stats in the linky below. Side note, when introducing him to the party, make sure to slaughter Gygax's name the same way WotC put up a host at their sales presentation who slaughtered Gary's name, it would be great for laugh's. I tried to find the video but it looks like Google memory holed it.
In 3e's Epic Level Handbook, he was a level 27 wizard with the ability to cast epic spells of up to 12th level, including epic mage armor (+20 to AC), greater spell resistance (basically a +35 on spell saves), let go of me (a powerful damage spell to a grappling creature), ruin (OP disintegrate). Mind you the stat adjustments existed in a system of unbounded accuracy, so the epic version of mage armor would have been a necessity for him to fight epic-level monsters. He's armed with at least one artifact (the "Silver Key of Portals", which acts as a chime of opening and gives power over planar portals), a staff of fiery power (flaming quarterstaff w/ fire resistance and a slew of metamagic'd fire spells), and a variety of other items that would be necessities in 3e.
In 5e, I'd go with a level 20 conjuration wizard on the basis alone that the spells he creates have a conjuration flavor, and that conjuration most closely aligns with planar travel.
Yes, I know that these stats were not Gygax official.
Mordenkainen is actually statted up in a 5e adventure
He's the Mad Mage of Mount Baratok, in Curse of Strahd, and is statted up as an archmage with a modified spell block.
In practice, most notable named characters from prior editions of the game should be legendary figures with access to abilities that existed in the edition of the game they came from even if they no longer exist in this edition. For another example, Manshoon has multiple clones running around because he's using the clone spell from AD&D, which actually did let you have multiple active clones of the same person (with deleterious effects on sanity, but eh).
In 3e's Epic Level Handbook, he was a level 27 wizard with the ability to cast epic spells of up to 12th level, including epic mage armor (+20 to AC), greater spell resistance (basically a +35 on spell saves), let go of me (a powerful damage spell to a grappling creature), ruin (OP disintegrate). Mind you the stat adjustments existed in a system of unbounded accuracy, so the epic version of mage armor would have been a necessity for him to fight epic-level monsters. He's armed with at least one artifact (the "Silver Key of Portals", which acts as a chime of opening and gives power over planar portals), a staff of fiery power (flaming quarterstaff w/ fire resistance and a slew of metamagic'd fire spells), and a variety of other items that would be necessities in 3e.
In 5e, I'd go with a level 20 conjuration wizard on the basis alone that the spells he creates have a conjuration flavor, and that conjuration most closely aligns with planar travel.
Yes, I know that these stats were not Gygax official.
If you want original formula he's 13 to 14 level. That being written it was 1E which was very hard to level up, you had to use your brains to steal coin to get xp and avoid combat as much as possible because it was so lethal. So compared to 5E, where short of homebrew or playing monsters that continue to attack to finish the deed you ain't dying so putting Mord as a much higher level than normal isn't that much of a stretch.
Hi,
Easy question, or maybe not, but one that has me curious. If Mordenkainen was a playable character, what level would he be, and would he be strictly a Wizard, or would he be more of a multiclass?
Thanks
Forge
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I imagine he would be level 20, but idk
As for class, he arguably has to be a wizard as all of the spells that start with "mordenkainen" are wizard spells.
Interestingly enough, magnificent mansion and sword are both also bard spells, so he could also be played as a bard if you can pick up his other two spells with magical secrets
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Remember that a spell being on a given spell list doesn't mean the creator was that class/subclass (that simply wouldn't make sense)
Mordenkainen was an actual D&D PC at one point (all the named wizards were), and went right up to what would be considered max level now. So the answer is probably 20th level. And he was explicitly a wizard (at least by todays class nomenclature)
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
While you are right, otherwise wouldn't have spells on several different spellcasters lists, the opposite logic was being used and makes sense - he'd have to be a class that can use the spells he created (as opposed to the spells having to be limited to the class of the creator). It makes no sense that a Sorceror would create a spell that only Wizards could use (and therefore the Sorceror could not). While it's not completely watertight logic, it's a good argument.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I once heard that Tasha wasn’t a character, but a little girl who wrote Gary a letter suggesting a spell that made a person laugh.
I’m not trying to do a “gotcha.” I just always liked that story and look for places to share it.
And to the OP: level 20 wizard, no question. Probably one with quite a few epic boons beyond 20, actually. Mordenkainen was Gary’s character/avatar and afaik, he’s only ever been a wizard.
NPCs aren't limited to the same abilities as PCs. If Mordenkainen was a PC (or rather, when Mordenkainen was a PC), he was a max-level wizard. That said, a 20th-level wizard's abilities pale in comparison to what most people attributer to Mordenkainen these days. In game terms he's likely invented a spell that allowed him to break past the twenty-levels limit and gain epic levels/prestige levels/what-have-you levels, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you're the personal character of the game's creator and the rules are literally whatever they need to be for you to exist.
Please do not contact or message me.
You're right, completely forgot about Tasha!
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Yeah, this is what I consider.
The fact is in prior editions, level was just another construct for player ability and could be completely and utterly broken. 5e has "fixed" that and put in hard limits in an attempt to balance what the DM has to do at high levels. The argument for how that balance works is a different thread, mind you.
To me, a PC of Mord would be the following:
He's an Order of Scribes wizard, mainly for thematics. Dude was was one of the original named wizards and has created more spells than most people have access to. He's a 20th level Wizard with a stat pool of 12 STR, 16 DEX, 30 INT, 22 WIS and 18 CHA. He has prof in all skills, the boons of spell master, spell recall, quick casting, planar travel(to get to ed greenwoods house), magic resistance, high magic, immortality, and dimensional travel. His spellbook literally has every spell in it.
He's carrying too many scrolls to count, a +1 dagger, efreeti bottle, three pearls of power, a bag of holding, various wands, bracers of defense, and a crystal ball.
Feats wise, if it's a spell feat, he probably has it. Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Ritual Caster, Eldritch Adept with Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Fey Touched, Keen Mind, Observant, Linguist, Prodigy(with Arcana obviously), Shadow Touched, and War Caster.
This essentially.
Mordenkainen's actual stats have never been made public by Gary Gygax. Every representation of him in various materials were done by other authors, as Gary didn't control the rights to his own character based on his agreements/contracts with TSR. So there isn't a canonical answer. But it was clear he was a Wizard. There were not sorcerers at the time, nor warlocks, and illusionists hadn't been written either.
Level wise at his apex, at least 20. However he is seen in the Seven Sisters novel as a peer to Elminister, and Elminister has been about 30th level in older editions, assuming they are equivalent in wizard stature. Since we don't have an epic level handbook like we did in 3rd edition for that circumstance, you probably should do a custom stat block, with legendary actions. This is a personage that counts demi-gods (Iuz) as an enemy and Tasha as a ...frenemy? So he deserves a bit more than an average level 20 wizard and its paltry number of spells per day. He also would have magic items galore...as he was before attunements.
Stat wise i'd give him a Str 10, Int 26, Con 14, Wis 16, Chr 16. He wasn't Tenser, who DID like scuffing it in melee (hence Tenser's transformation), but he certainly used wish and other means to increase his mental power (Because that's how you did it in 1st edition; there were no ASI's).
Have fun
Yup. If Mordenkainen as we currently think of him was a PC, he wouldn't be Mordenkainen anymore. You'd need to break so many PC rules that there'd be no point in using the PC template as a foundation. It's like asking what would Tiamat look like as a PC.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, it's not like 3rd Edition where they tried to build all PCs and NPCs using the same formula.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Maybe CR 20? He's up there with the maximum casters in the MM, wouldn't be surprised if he was as strong as a Dracolich, or Elder Brain. I doubt he'd measure in levels at all, he might not be as powerful as Ioulaum, but many of the legendary mages in the lore break outside the boundaries of the rules. Like High Magic, it's just a reference in the lore, 5E doesn't have rules for Elves to make Mythals and other 10+ level spells.
Elminster is somewhere up there to, max level wizard plus chosen of Mystra, plus whatever else, he to a dive recently, but there's nothing in the rules to reach his heights either. There's mages like Black Staff who had legendary saves and so on.
5E only presents creatures up to CR30, but there are stronger creatures, and Mordenkainen manipulates reality on a Multiversal scale, so his level is probably something like 30 or 40.
Mordie's a powerful mage but he's only mortal. He's not the same tier as Tiamat. He's a wizard, not a god.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Set Mord at a 25th level Wizard, increase his spell slots, lvl 1 to lvl 3 +2 slots, and lvl 4+ +1 slots. Give him triple advantage on concentration checks. And don't forget contingency, he shouldn't be killable the first shot by a party.
In reality Gary Gygax had his character at level 13 to 14. You can look at Mord's stats in the linky below. Side note, when introducing him to the party, make sure to slaughter Gygax's name the same way WotC put up a host at their sales presentation who slaughtered Gary's name, it would be great for laugh's. I tried to find the video but it looks like Google memory holed it.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/06/dd-a-blast-from-the-past-mordenkainen-74.html
In 3e's Epic Level Handbook, he was a level 27 wizard with the ability to cast epic spells of up to 12th level, including epic mage armor (+20 to AC), greater spell resistance (basically a +35 on spell saves), let go of me (a powerful damage spell to a grappling creature), ruin (OP disintegrate). Mind you the stat adjustments existed in a system of unbounded accuracy, so the epic version of mage armor would have been a necessity for him to fight epic-level monsters. He's armed with at least one artifact (the "Silver Key of Portals", which acts as a chime of opening and gives power over planar portals), a staff of fiery power (flaming quarterstaff w/ fire resistance and a slew of metamagic'd fire spells), and a variety of other items that would be necessities in 3e.
In 5e, I'd go with a level 20 conjuration wizard on the basis alone that the spells he creates have a conjuration flavor, and that conjuration most closely aligns with planar travel.
Yes, I know that these stats were not Gygax official.
Mordenkainen is actually statted up in a 5e adventure
In practice, most notable named characters from prior editions of the game should be legendary figures with access to abilities that existed in the edition of the game they came from even if they no longer exist in this edition. For another example, Manshoon has multiple clones running around because he's using the clone spell from AD&D, which actually did let you have multiple active clones of the same person (with deleterious effects on sanity, but eh).
If you want original formula he's 13 to 14 level. That being written it was 1E which was very hard to level up, you had to use your brains to steal coin to get xp and avoid combat as much as possible because it was so lethal. So compared to 5E, where short of homebrew or playing monsters that continue to attack to finish the deed you ain't dying so putting Mord as a much higher level than normal isn't that much of a stretch.
Thanks for all your responses, guys and gals. It seems that Mordenkainen is a much more complex individual than it first appears.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Well they are a character that is as old as D&D
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
That’s easy, 20th+ Epic Boons. Back in the day I think he was level 36ish (maybe higher), but D&D doesn’t get that high anymore.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting