I was curious what people thought about the Spellcasting Mechanics and the upcoming "Next Evolution of D&D" coming in 2024 and what, if anything, could or should be changed?

One thing that players seem to get tripped up on frequently is the Bonus Action casting rules. Do you think it is fine, as is? Or should it be changed, removed?

What about spell components and foci? I know a lot of this gets hand waived at many tables, but the whole, you can use a spellcasting focus for M components, and if it also has an S component you can use the same hand that is holding the focus to complete the Somatic gestures. But if it has an S, but not an M, you have to have a free hand so if you are wielding a weapon or shield or something else, along with that spellcasting focus, you need to drop one of them to wave your hands, for that spell. etc...

Or any other "issues" with the spellcasting mechanics that you think should be revisited, revised, removed?

Would like to hear people's thoughts.

I’d like to see clarification on line of sight, mostly how windows or other transparent objects interact with it. Things you can see, but are simultaneously behind total cover

And if agree about spell components. It does seem like lots of people just ignore them outright. I’d still like to see the spells with expensive material components, because I like that as a back door way to control how often someone casts the spell. And verbal can be useful and has lots of in-game implications for casting. But generally, for M and S, I’d prefer something like, you need a free hand, and then leave it to people what that hand is doing. 

I might prefer cantrips scaling with class level instead of character. Just to scale back the power of 1-level dips. But I go back and forth on that.

In a dream world where WOTC could be genuinely bothered to patch up their game, I think deafened should be given more teeth by interfering with a spell's V components in a way resistible with a skillcheck (probably Performance) and, while we're at it, for WOTC to clearly delineate if and how you can cast stealthfully - i.e. to what extent (and using what rules) you can try to cast a lower volume, try to obfuscate what spell you're casting, and so on.  Back to the original point, I'd also love for things like restrained to interfere with S components (again, in a resistible way).

But the single biggest game flaw with spellcasting has nothing to do with the core spellcasting rules and everything to do with know-casters being inexplicably nerfed compared to prepare-casters - they both have fewer spells on tap and can't swap them out on a long rest, in exchange for nothing at all.  It's bizarre.

I don't think we will see any major changes to how spellcasting works, but I would like better rules for bonus action casting.

Clearer rules language across the board would be asking too much I guess, but I would still like it to happen. 

Quote from ThriKreenWarrior >>

What about spell components and foci? I know a lot of this gets hand waived at many tables, but the whole, you can use a spellcasting focus for M components, and if it also has an S component you can use the same hand that is holding the focus to complete the Somatic gestures.

 Really? Wow, I always thought you needed two free hands.

I agree about the prepared versus known spells classes. 

In general spell components are either ignored or tracked like equipment and magic items, some groups like this style and some do not. To me having a basic version a spell casting in which you do not track them if fine and having a more advanced spell casting rule set would work well. That is if you can keep the game play and over all feel the same. Often I have found if players have to track stuff they can be or get more frantic when playing if they do not have what they need...on the other hand requiring "spell stuff" (material components/rituals/prayers/good deeds/parts of creatures/etc) is a good way to limit some magic and potential power levels. Note: as a RP mechanism I am planning on trying to collect creature samples to make make my formulas for my blood hunter path of the mutant and as a RP thing I think it will be fine but if I had to have specific "parts" of specific creatures for specific formulas then it might take away a major feature of the class.

I second and third clear language with thought into how the system may expand in the future. The last is very hard as you do not know the future and where the game may go or what the fans may want.   

I'm not sure what it would look like, and I think it's not likely given the unliklihood of Hypothetical WOTC PROJEKT CD D&D GOLD deviating from 5e's favoring of streamlining over grain, but I think I'd prefer greater distinction between the way spellcasting functions between spellcasting classes.  Like maybe Wizards keep the existing spellslot system, but Sorcerers instead get their spellcasting from a font of metamagic (de facto spell points).  Clerical or Oath based magic would actually require good standing in their domain or oath, Circle or whatever Rangers get their magic fix from.  Warlocks could branch between servants of a patron and "pact breakers" that need to negotiate tangled and conflicting alliances to keep their mojo in play.  Again, not exactly sure what it'd look like but I'd prefer something other than a sort of common full caster half caster table.  It would definitely require a lot more work put in for balance but I think it would make casters much more distinct than they currently are.

It's not really a mechanics thing....but I'd like them to expound a bit on verbal and somatic components. Specifically, letting me know what they involve and therefore their constraints. When my character does the verbal component,.how loud is it? Is he muttering, so he would be heard in a quiet cavern but perhaps not in a field? Or is he talking loudly and therefore could get away with it in a crowd but not in that field? Or is he yelling and so it doesn't matter where he is, he'll be heard? Again with somatic components...if his hands are tied, does that render it impossible? What about one hand restrained? I would like to know the constraints.

Also bonus action economy is something I dislike. I can do contribute a good spell, or I can use my BA. That generally means that I can't use BA spells, and as a Wizard, I often have no other use for a BA. It's rare that I use my BA, Misty Step if an enemy gets too close and then sting them with Firebolt. I don't know if there is a better system...perhaps your main spell cannot use either of your top two spell slots (so let's say you are L13 with a 7th level spell slot as your highest, you can only use 5th level spells or something. Just, don't make me choose between my BA and doing something more than merely marginally useful.

Quote from Linklite >>

It's not really a mechanics thing....but I'd like them to expound a bit on verbal and somatic components. Specifically, letting me know what they involve and therefore their constraints. When my character does the verbal component,.how loud is it? Is he muttering, so he would be heard in a quiet cavern but perhaps not in a field? Or is he talking loudly and therefore could get away with it in a crowd but not in that field? Or is he yelling and so it doesn't matter where he is, he'll be heard? Again with somatic components...if his hands are tied, does that render it impossible? What about one hand restrained? I would like to know the constraints.

Also bonus action economy is something I dislike. I can do contribute a good spell, or I can use my BA. That generally means that I can't use BA spells, and as a Wizard, I often have no other use for a BA. It's rare that I use my BA, Misty Step if an enemy gets too close and then sting them with Firebolt. I don't know if there is a better system...perhaps your main spell cannot use either of your top two spell slots (so let's say you are L13 with a 7th level spell slot as your highest, you can only use 5th level spells or something. Just, don't make me choose between my BA and doing something more than merely marginally useful.

 You have brought up a good example of a point I was going to make, that is spell casting rules do not stand alone and how they integrate into the over all combat system rules is important and it can be tough to see how a rules outline of spell combat works without seeing how the combat rules work. 

Quote from quindraco >>

In a dream world where WOTC could be genuinely bothered to patch up their game, I think deafened should be given more teeth by interfering with a spell's V components in a way resistible with a skillcheck (probably Performance) and, while we're at it, for WOTC to clearly delineate if and how you can cast stealthfully - i.e. to what extent (and using what rules) you can try to cast a lower volume, try to obfuscate what spell you're casting, and so on.  Back to the original point, I'd also love for things like restrained to interfere with S components (again, in a resistible way).

But the single biggest game flaw with spellcasting has nothing to do with the core spellcasting rules and everything to do with know-casters being inexplicably nerfed compared to prepare-casters - they both have fewer spells on tap and can't swap them out on a long rest, in exchange for nothing at all.  It's bizarre.

These are some of my big ones too, I don't like how being restrained has zero effect on casting a spell. Oh this big creature just grappled me and restrained me? Excuse me while I reach into this component pouch and perfectly gesticulate while getting out the perfect verbal tones needed to cast this spell regardless of that.

And yes they really screwed the pooch when they dropped having to prep spell slots because they didn't comp known spell casters AT ALL for losing what was their advantage.  I don't even know how you do that in  design team "hey I know lets give these classes shtick to everyone but leave them with all the negatives still!"

Tbh, I just feel like they need to improve wording in some rules, as stated above.

BA castings and S, M needs are ones that could use some improvements.

All in all, I am happy with how spellcasting as a whole and, with 2024 being backwards compatible, I feel there is not gonna be some major changes.

My biggest problem with spellcasting is not a general rules problem, I just think sorcerers need a leg up to be more than just an worse wizard. Other spellcasting classes are fine and balanced for me, even if you considered prepared vs. known, I don't feel that bards/warlocks suffer bc of it.

Quote from RaSeyssel >>

Tbh, I just feel like they need to improve wording in some rules, as stated above.

BA castings and S, M needs are ones that could use some improvements.

All in all, I am happy with how spellcasting as a whole and, with 2024 being backwards compatible, I feel there is not gonna be some major changes.

My biggest problem with spellcasting is not a general rules problem, I just think sorcerers need a leg up to be more than just an worse wizard. Other spellcasting classes are fine and balanced for me, even if you considered prepared vs. known, I don't feel that bards/warlocks suffer bc of it.

 Yeah, I get that they're not going to have the same spell variety as wizard, not in their spell list and not in their known spells vs a wizard's growing spell book. And they have metamagic to break the rules of magic in ways wizards cannot. But I feel like sorcs sould perhaps get a bit more than they do now in terms of spells known. Possibly aided by giving old subclasses a free thematically relevant spell or two per spell level. 

I'd be okay if they just said you can cast one leveled spell on a turn, full stop.

I'd also be okay if they clarified that if the hand holding a wand can perform the somatic component of a VSM spell, it can also perform the somatic component of a VS spell.

The restrained/grappled thing I'm ok with. It's kind of a trope having the wizards hands bound up behind him and he still waggles some fingers around to cast a spell. I think getting even more fiddly with the component rules is just going to make more people ignore them.

Simplifying the bonus action thing to 'one leveled spell a turn' would work, though I'd be a little sad to see reaction spells on your own turn go away. Sometimes counter spell chains, or using shield to stop an opportunity attack etc can be fun without having to forgo a main spell that turn. 

They should just alter Quicken Spell to only work on cantrips, and then just let casters burn slots if they want to cast a standard spell and a bonus action spell in the same turn. 

As stated above I would love to see more distinction in spell casting that makes each class shine in the own special way, but having been around RPG's authors asking what people want and then seeing what rules they produce it is often not what fans want and then the rules are often boiled down for simplicity and spell casters are often people just wearing different colored glasses or in the case of 5e different ribbons in their hair.    

A couple replies:

Backwards compatibility limits what we will see, but speculation and just general “I wish it were this way…” is kind of fun.

As far as grappled or restrained goes, I’m fine with spell casting but wouldn’t be troubled if it gave disadvantage on spell attacks or advantage on a target’s saving throw, if the caster is restrained. Or cannot cast spells with S or M components. Or something like that. Grappled doesn’t mean that something has you in MMA jujitsu hold or something. Grabbing a child by the wrist to keep them from running into traffic is a grapple (speed reduced to zero, etc) They can still kick and scream, hit and bite so i could see still being able to do some gestures etc  

As for sorcerers, i do think they will all have additional spells like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul. But what I would like to see is a bunch of new spells that are sorcerer only so they aren’t Wizard Lite. Let them have unique spells to shine. And that would be backwards compatible. 

And for expounding on Components, I kind of like the vagueness, and maybe this was their intention, so you can RP the look of your spells and how they are cast. You want your Burning Hands to look like fiery barbed chains lashing out at targets in the cone and you making whipping motions with your hands? Have at it. (Unfortunately the spell description has something about your hands together thumbs touching and fingers spread out or something so if you need to stick to the description I guess you couldn’t do that. But I would ignore it)

If I remember right sorcerers used to get more slots per day than wizards. So fewer spells known, but can cast them more often. I realize using metamagic points kind of fills that role, but then you can’t metamagic. They could go back to metamagic forcing the use of a higher level spell. Like a quickend magic missile would require using at least a level 2 slot (or something, I don’t remember exactly what metas required which levels). Though wizards could use them, too, I think.

I don’t know if that would be considered backward compatible, but it would give sorcerers a niche. More slots per day then also means they could use metamagic upgrades more frequently. 

Sorcerers getting metamagic helps to give them things not just wizards, but other casters can't do. Doubling up on powerful buffs like haste, so I don't feel like they need anything massive, but a bit of a touch up would be nice. 

Quote from ThriKreenWarrior >>

And for expounding on Components, I kind of like the vagueness, and maybe this was their intention, so you can RP the look of your spells and how they are cast. You want your Burning Hands to look like fiery barbed chains lashing out at targets in the cone and you making whipping motions with your hands? Have at it. (Unfortunately the spell description has something about your hands together thumbs touching and fingers spread out or something so if you need to stick to the description I guess you couldn’t do that. But I would ignore it)

 I'm fine with it not being specifically spelt out exactly what you have to do. If you want to DBZ it, go ahead (although in some spells they already do spell it out). I just want guidance on what is reasonable to expect. "When you say the incantation, people within x amount of feet will be able to hear , y amount if there is noise", or "when you perform the somatic component, you need to be able to at least move your hands from the wrist down without impediment", something to guide me as to when I can say "yeah that works" or "no, sorry, your hands aren't free enough to do the somatic component".  I'm not particularly after the flavour so much as just guidance on where the lines cross (eg when does subtle spell stop being useful, and start becoming redundant?~).