And for expounding on Components, I kind of like the vagueness, and maybe this was their intention, so you can RP the look of your spells and how they are cast. You want your Burning Hands to look like fiery barbed chains lashing out at targets in the cone and you making whipping motions with your hands? Have at it. (Unfortunately the spell description has something about your hands together thumbs touching and fingers spread out or something so if you need to stick to the description I guess you couldn’t do that. But I would ignore it)
I'm fine with it not being specifically spelt out exactly what you have to do. If you want to DBZ it, go ahead (although in some spells they already do spell it out). I just want guidance on what is reasonable to expect. "When you say the incantation, people within x amount of feet will be able to hear , y amount if there is noise", or "when you perform the somatic component, you need to be able to at least move your hands from the wrist down without impediment", something to guide me as to when I can say "yeah that works" or "no, sorry, your hands aren't free enough to do the somatic component". I'm not particularly after the flavour so much as just guidance on where the lines cross (eg when does subtle spell stop being useful, and start becoming redundant?~).
Those are very good points and I’m sorry I glossed over those. Guidelines like those would be helpful. I’ve seen threads about Arcane Trickster Rogues casting spells while hidden and those guidelines would be helpful to know.
I'm not sure what it would look like, and I think it's not likely given the unliklihood of Hypothetical WOTC PROJEKT CD D&D GOLD deviating from 5e's favoring of streamlining over grain, but I think I'd prefer greater distinction between the way spellcasting functions between spellcasting classes. Like maybe Wizards keep the existing spellslot system, but Sorcerers instead get their spellcasting from a font of metamagic (de facto spell points). Clerical or Oath based magic would actually require good standing in their domain or oath, Circle or whatever Rangers get their magic fix from. Warlocks could branch between servants of a patron and "pact breakers" that need to negotiate tangled and conflicting alliances to keep their mojo in play. Again, not exactly sure what it'd look like but I'd prefer something other than a sort of common full caster half caster table. It would definitely require a lot more work put in for balance but I think it would make casters much more distinct than they currently are.
I really like this idea. One of the (very few) things that I think 4th Edition got right was the "Power Source" descriptor for each class (Martial, Divine, Arcane, etc.). That tag line alone let you know up front that "Hey, this is where your power and ability to do things is coming from".
And further to your point, I think one of the things that makes Warlocks such a popular class (aside from the incredible flavor baked in) is the mechanical variety that Pact Magic brings to the table. You're still using the spells and spell slots, but the simple fact that you have a small number of slots that reset on a short rest COMPLETELY changes the way you play a spellcaster, not to mention the change in psychology that happens when you realize up front that your resource management looks very little like that of a standard spellcaster. Throw in the way Eldritch Invocations work, and you have a recipe for a character that drives unlike anything else on the board, despite being built around the same spell/spell slot system.
I'm with you. Keeping Wizards more or less the same, while making other spellcasters function differently is the way to go, I think.
Yeah, I was thinking of how Warlock sorta pushes spellcasting into something different from other casters in conjunctions with its other magical features. If there was more synergy between say channel divinity domane flavors and Cleric spellcasting, that would be a nudge in the right direction.
I need to look over 4e's magic system sometime, been meaning to, but yeah having magic be more explicitly derived from the "nature" of the magic would be key.
And yes, this is likely not a direction WOTC PROJECT D&D 2024 GOLD is going to do. On the other hand, I thought they did some interesting things in the Dragonlance UA with Sorcery, arcane feats and feats related to divine relationships. That could indicate efforts to make more distinctive varieties of magic.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Unpopular opinion incoming...I would like to see spell slots go away and a simplified spell point/mana system put in. 90% of the games I run are for new players, including young players, and sometimes new players have a hard time grasping the concept of spell slots over a mana system.
I want more support for spell points. I do not mind spell slots and I think they should stay, but I think Wizard needs to make a huge deal about spell points and make it a core option like custom ASIs, so that Beyond cannot delay it implementing it any longer. By allowing players to pick which system they use, everyone will be happy. GMs who want only spell slots can still play with only spell slots at their table, but everyone else who wants an option to use spell points can choose between the two systems.
If I remember right sorcerers used to get more slots per day than wizards. So fewer spells known, but can cast them more often. I realize using metamagic points kind of fills that role, but then you can’t metamagic. They could go back to metamagic forcing the use of a higher level spell. Like a quickend magic missile would require using at least a level 2 slot (or something, I don’t remember exactly what metas required which levels). Though wizards could use them, too, I think.
I don’t know if that would be considered backward compatible, but it would give sorcerers a niche. More slots per day then also means they could use metamagic upgrades more frequently.
yeah sorcerers used to get 6 slots per spell lvl instead of the normal 4. They gained their new spell levels slower as well but wizards also had to prep every spell slot specifically vs the sorcerer just casting whatever.
They should just alter Quicken Spell to only work on cantrips, and then just let casters burn slots if they want to cast a standard spell and a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Don't think metamagic needs any nerfs, right now you can quicken a spell than till have your action for whatever which is handy. Limiting it to just cantrips is a sorcerer nerf that's not needed
They should just alter Quicken Spell to only work on cantrips, and then just let casters burn slots if they want to cast a standard spell and a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Don't think metamagic needs any nerfs, right now you can quicken a spell than till have your action for whatever which is handy. Limiting it to just cantrips is a sorcerer nerf that's not needed
I am convinced that the only reason the bonus action spell rule exists is to keep Quicken Spell in check. I am sure that there are other ways to buff Sorcerer that don't require a janky tacked on rule to make it work.
I would give sorts the third metamagic option a bit earlier though. They get two at 3rd now and the next at level 10 I think and then again at level 17.
Also level 2 as a sorc is such a letdown. You get 1 spellslot for your metamagic option that is it. One of the most boring features at early levels in the game. Maybe give them the first metamagic option here and then again at third. How that would work with class features is a bit tricky as 5th/7th/9th levels are all only getting the next higher spelllevels and no feature on top, so I don’t know.
the warlock is very distinct caster class and the invocations give you options no other caster has, that is cool.
outlier here, the arcane archer. Yeah I know not really a caster but has a similar problem with his arcane shot options you get only two uses and that never changes you only get different options but not more uses. even if you have maybe 2 short rests a day to get them back. With 2 attacks per round they are probably gone after round 1 or 2 of combat. If you have another fight yeah go shoot your normal arrows and forget about your subclass features because you already had 2 rounds of combat.
I don’t know how WotC who is talking about 6 to 8 possible encounters a day (I know it’s also social and exploration) came up with the idea to limit this subclass in such a way.
They should just alter Quicken Spell to only work on cantrips, and then just let casters burn slots if they want to cast a standard spell and a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Don't think metamagic needs any nerfs, right now you can quicken a spell than till have your action for whatever which is handy. Limiting it to just cantrips is a sorcerer nerf that's not needed
I am convinced that the only reason the bonus action spell rule exists is to keep Quicken Spell in check. I am sure that there are other ways to buff Sorcerer that don't require a janky tacked on rule to make it work.
I disagree with this assumption. There are plenty of native bonus action spells that would get a sizeable buff with that rule gone. I'm pretty sure they also don't want a cleric to be able to Cure Wounds and Healing Word on the same turn, for example.
I still think one leveled spell per turn is simple and robust. Counterspelling the Counterspell on the spell you're casting might be a cool moment, but it doesn't make any sense.
They should just alter Quicken Spell to only work on cantrips, and then just let casters burn slots if they want to cast a standard spell and a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Don't think metamagic needs any nerfs, right now you can quicken a spell than till have your action for whatever which is handy. Limiting it to just cantrips is a sorcerer nerf that's not needed
I am convinced that the only reason the bonus action spell rule exists is to keep Quicken Spell in check. I am sure that there are other ways to buff Sorcerer that don't require a janky tacked on rule to make it work.
I disagree with this assumption. There are plenty of native bonus action spells that would get a sizeable buff with that rule gone. I'm pretty sure they also don't want a cleric to be able to Cure Wounds and Healing Word on the same turn, for example.
I still think one leveled spell per turn is simple and robust. Counterspelling the Counterspell on the spell you're casting might be a cool moment, but it doesn't make any sense.
I just don't think Healing Word + Cure Wounds in one turn is as OP as Fire Ball + Fire Ball. I mean, I guess there are some good combos out there, but really nothing that would be as bad as Sorcerer being able to double up on 1 actions spells multiple times a day.
What is the most OP bonus action action spell combo that could be done outside of Quicken Spell shenanigans?
Sorcerers automatically using Spell Points instead of Spell Slots would be a huge boost to the class.
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Those are very good points and I’m sorry I glossed over those. Guidelines like those would be helpful. I’ve seen threads about Arcane Trickster Rogues casting spells while hidden and those guidelines would be helpful to know.
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Yeah, I was thinking of how Warlock sorta pushes spellcasting into something different from other casters in conjunctions with its other magical features. If there was more synergy between say channel divinity domane flavors and Cleric spellcasting, that would be a nudge in the right direction.
I need to look over 4e's magic system sometime, been meaning to, but yeah having magic be more explicitly derived from the "nature" of the magic would be key.
And yes, this is likely not a direction WOTC PROJECT D&D 2024 GOLD is going to do. On the other hand, I thought they did some interesting things in the Dragonlance UA with Sorcery, arcane feats and feats related to divine relationships. That could indicate efforts to make more distinctive varieties of magic.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Unpopular opinion incoming...I would like to see spell slots go away and a simplified spell point/mana system put in. 90% of the games I run are for new players, including young players, and sometimes new players have a hard time grasping the concept of spell slots over a mana system.
I want more support for spell points. I do not mind spell slots and I think they should stay, but I think Wizard needs to make a huge deal about spell points and make it a core option like custom ASIs, so that Beyond cannot delay it implementing it any longer. By allowing players to pick which system they use, everyone will be happy. GMs who want only spell slots can still play with only spell slots at their table, but everyone else who wants an option to use spell points can choose between the two systems.
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yeah sorcerers used to get 6 slots per spell lvl instead of the normal 4. They gained their new spell levels slower as well but wizards also had to prep every spell slot specifically vs the sorcerer just casting whatever.
Don't think metamagic needs any nerfs, right now you can quicken a spell than till have your action for whatever which is handy. Limiting it to just cantrips is a sorcerer nerf that's not needed
I am convinced that the only reason the bonus action spell rule exists is to keep Quicken Spell in check. I am sure that there are other ways to buff Sorcerer that don't require a janky tacked on rule to make it work.
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Some very nice thoughts here.
I would give sorts the third metamagic option a bit earlier though. They get two at 3rd now and the next at level 10 I think and then again at level 17.
Also level 2 as a sorc is such a letdown. You get 1 spellslot for your metamagic option that is it. One of the most boring features at early levels in the game. Maybe give them the first metamagic option here and then again at third. How that would work with class features is a bit tricky as 5th/7th/9th levels are all only getting the next higher spelllevels and no feature on top, so I don’t know.
the warlock is very distinct caster class and the invocations give you options no other caster has, that is cool.
outlier here, the arcane archer. Yeah I know not really a caster but has a similar problem with his arcane shot options you get only two uses and that never changes you only get different options but not more uses.
even if you have maybe 2 short rests a day to get them back. With 2 attacks per round they are probably gone after round 1 or 2 of combat. If you have another fight yeah go shoot your normal arrows and forget about your subclass features because you already had 2 rounds of combat.
I don’t know how WotC who is talking about 6 to 8 possible encounters a day (I know it’s also social and exploration) came up with the idea to limit this subclass in such a way.
I disagree with this assumption. There are plenty of native bonus action spells that would get a sizeable buff with that rule gone. I'm pretty sure they also don't want a cleric to be able to Cure Wounds and Healing Word on the same turn, for example.
I still think one leveled spell per turn is simple and robust. Counterspelling the Counterspell on the spell you're casting might be a cool moment, but it doesn't make any sense.
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(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
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I just don't think Healing Word + Cure Wounds in one turn is as OP as Fire Ball + Fire Ball. I mean, I guess there are some good combos out there, but really nothing that would be as bad as Sorcerer being able to double up on 1 actions spells multiple times a day.
What is the most OP bonus action action spell combo that could be done outside of Quicken Spell shenanigans?
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