On D&D's official Facebook page the vast majority of comments are SIGN THE ORC OR DIE! or even just DIE WOTSEEE! , with the middle ground being "Hasbro needs to sell WotC". While I'd probably like to see Hasbro's back, I'm not really sure anybody else who has the money to buy WotC is any better. Anyway, we got a new DRAFT (just as the first one was a DRAFT) and this time the community can literally "playtest" it. What more do you want? Many of the comments I have seen are worried about the vagueness of words like "inclusive" and "harmful", and I agree those need to be spelled out, (edit) although maybe a better idea would be to allow 3PP to correct any issues or to have an appeals process (edit). But that is what the "playtest" is for, no? 1.0a wasn't irrevocable and was under WotC control. 1.2 (and there will probably be a 1.3 etc. until the document is finalized) will be both irrevocable and out of WotC hands so they can't change it even if they wanted to. Now, while game mechanics are not subject to copyright, creature names and spell names very much are, and WotC is, with the OGL, giving 3PP rights to those copyrightable terms, so it's not true that WotC is giving us what we already have. Should you restart your D&D Beyond subscription? If you can run your campaigns without it, definitely not. The fact WotC capitulated does not mean they don't need to be reminded the TTRPG community is not like many other consumer communities. But I don't think you should boycot Honor Among Thieves because we need to show the world TTRPG feature movies and shows can be profitable, and I definitely don't think spamming D&D One playtests with outrage is at all needed.
OGL 1.1 was terrible. No sane person would have signed it. OGL 1.2 is better than OGL 1.0a except for the vagueness of the terms "inclusive" etc. There will be a survey today (or on Monday). Take it. It is being read and taken into account. Let us see what we can do to move forward, without forgetting all that came before.
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
100% this! I have recently rediscovered my ignore button. I don't like using it, but there are more than a few that just spew nonsense in every thread, so it is fruitless to attempt to reason with them.
So yes, some people are going overboard, but they need to.
Let's start of by saying, the first one was not a draft, companies have come out saying, they were sent that license to sign, you don't sign a draft.
The community's outrage is really the only thing that got WoTC to back down and come to the table with us. The problem, peace wasn't what WoTC wanted, they wanted an iron grasp on all the money everyone was making and wanted to make it, so they were the only game in town.
As a community, we shouldn't be calm, but we also have to be reasonable. For example, the current draft is better, but it's still got a ton of issues. Also, the VTT policy is trash and just meant to that when they release their VTT, no one can compete with features. So be reasonable and don't give death threats or anything rude, but you should be mad, you should be angry, and you should voice that anger.
Most people are playing without dndbeyond. But it is the most visible forum for dnd. They have been riled up and want to voice their toughts.
Yes some of it is misplaced. But people like their products. people like their 3rd party stuff. People are also afraid of change.
At the end of the day, people talk with their wallets. Mrs Williams has indicated that she wants more from my wallet and also take money from my friends pockets. I will be making a judgment call this weekend and I will rummage through the horde of stuff we have bought from 3rd parties, kickstarters and legacy games we own.
We may decide to forgo going forward with dnd and at a minimum, I will not resubscribe in march.
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
So, 'the community' is just the people who frequent these boards then?
I assume you realize that such is a far cry from the truth.
Incendiary works both ways. There's a toxic thread describing contributors as rabid hyenas within which all manner of dehumanizing comments are made against those who (reasonably) advocate a strong stance to be taken against WotC. Please can everyone keep perspective? Thanks.
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all.
Hi, I'm someone who has never posted to the forums. In a past life I was a community manager for GalaNet and our forums had about 8% of the community engaged. Most of the "top players" did not engage the forum. I've been playing D&D for 20 years, have 5k hours on Roll20, and own every D&D book. Just because I choose to engage on other communication platforms doesn't make me any less a part of the D&D community or less engaged in the current situation.
No...There is no peace in this. I am only a player/DM, not any kind of developer. But, the stance that WotC has taken with the OGL and their treatment of the community (that feeds their machine) is disturbing. The nuke was detonated by WotC and they just haven't seen all of fallout yet. I think it is going to hurt a lot. Don't blame the target of the nuke for being upset.
I have only been back to D&D for about a year (after 15+ years away) and have been collecting hard copy and digital versions (Roll20/DNDBeyond) of content. I had several items on the list to buy this month, but have reprioritized spending and use of time (painting minis that can be used for a wide variety of games). Although, our group will continue to play our campaign it is unlikely that we will support WotC through the purchase of additional materials/spending, unless this is resolved in a way that preserves the existing OGL and the 3rd party content providers that have helped make the last year fun.
Think what you like. You do you. Don't tell me how I should react.
I'd say react politely while treating other contributors personally with respect. By so doing you will rise above the base level of some of those that are against strong reactions.
Everyone has a right to post.
I used to be involved with local politics and, at many times, meetings weren't well attended. Then something happened and loads of people who had a vested interest piled in.
It's the same with the forum here. People are invested in various ways in D&D and then we're faced with evidence that our nation is ruled by duplicitous, manipulative liars. There's going to be a reaction.
I don't believe anyone needs to go overboard anymore. The company has opened the floor to discussion and is clearly making a strong effort to get it right now.
In a past life I was a community manager for GalaNet
Then you should know better than most what it is I'm talking about, and what happens to online communities that allow the kind of venom we're seeing right now to go unchecked
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Then you should know better than most what it is I'm talking about, and what happens to online communities that allow the kind of venom we're seeing right now to go unchecked
Allowing hateful content to be unchecked is very different from your statement of arbitrary metrics to decide who is or is not a legitimate voice.
In a past life I was a community manager for GalaNet
Then you should know better than most what it is I'm talking about, and what happens to online communities that allow the kind of venom we're seeing right now to go unchecked
Right, so would you prefer to suggest that only a select portion of the entire community should be allowed to respond here, based on what you find to be acceptable parameters?
I could be wrong, of course, I'm just asking a question.
I read through the current version of the "draft" OGL. It's pretty simple. It basically says the same crap the secret version said, only they hid it better under legal gibberish and the overuse of the word license. They can still claim to be able to do what they want, when they want, with their stuff and yours. They effectively prevent you from *****ing about it (court).
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
Congratulations! You're getting my first comment from a 2+ year member here. Don't gatekeep. You're worried about how it looks, gatekeeping is worse.
On D&D's official Facebook page the vast majority of comments are SIGN THE ORC OR DIE! or even just DIE WOTSEEE! , with the middle ground being "Hasbro needs to sell WotC". While I'd probably like to see Hasbro's back, I'm not really sure anybody else who has the money to buy WotC is any better. Anyway, we got a new DRAFT (just as the first one was a DRAFT) and this time the community can literally "playtest" it. What more do you want? Many of the comments I have seen are worried about the vagueness of words like "inclusive" and "harmful", and I agree those need to be spelled out, (edit) although maybe a better idea would be to allow 3PP to correct any issues or to have an appeals process (edit). But that is what the "playtest" is for, no? 1.0a wasn't irrevocable and was under WotC control. 1.2 (and there will probably be a 1.3 etc. until the document is finalized) will be both irrevocable and out of WotC hands so they can't change it even if they wanted to. Now, while game mechanics are not subject to copyright, creature names and spell names very much are, and WotC is, with the OGL, giving 3PP rights to those copyrightable terms, so it's not true that WotC is giving us what we already have. Should you restart your D&D Beyond subscription? If you can run your campaigns without it, definitely not. The fact WotC capitulated does not mean they don't need to be reminded the TTRPG community is not like many other consumer communities. But I don't think you should boycot Honor Among Thieves because we need to show the world TTRPG feature movies and shows can be profitable, and I definitely don't think spamming D&D One playtests with outrage is at all needed.
OGL 1.1 was terrible. No sane person would have signed it. OGL 1.2 is better than OGL 1.0a except for the vagueness of the terms "inclusive" etc. There will be a survey today (or on Monday). Take it. It is being read and taken into account. Let us see what we can do to move forward, without forgetting all that came before.
Do you know what happens? That the reasons that have unleashed the discontent of a large part of the community have not been, and it does not seem that they will be, resolved.
WoTC in its 1.2 says exactly the same as in 1.1 only with better words. But the content is the same except for royalties. Is it enough for you? Perfect, everyone can decide for themselves. But if you didn't like 1.1, take your time to read 1.2 because it's selling you the same thing.
And it's that WoTC does not intend to change its plans regarding 1.1 That was its final document, and they are not going to back down. What they are going to try is to sweeten the pill for you. But his intention is not to listen to the fan, but to continue with his monetization plans as they were proposed. And, of course, they try to stop the bleeding, and the destruction of their brand image. That's what the survey is for.
Because they really know what the opinion of the community is. They don't need to ask. They do it so you think they listen to you, but they will continue with their plans as planned regardless of the result of the survey.
I don't believe anyone needs to go overboard anymore. The company has opened the floor to discussion and is clearly making a strong effort to get it right now.
We have a means to help them get it right.
This is a lot more like the reaction I expected people to have when they pulled back on OGL1.1 and have since opened 1.2 up to public scrutiny. I agree with others that the reaction by many has been overblown to the point of suspicion.
Do people have valid concerns? Definitely. Was the initial distribution of OGL1.1 underhanded and predatory? Yes. But companies are not always a monolith, sometimes you have individual people or teams that overstep their bounds and in situations like this get pulled back by others.
You're free to do what you want in reaction to all this, but the weird part is the people actively and fervently campaigning for everyone else to cancel subs, boycott the movie, manufacture and impale WotC voodoo dolls, etc.
I certainly have a plan for an alternate system if things go south and I've brought it up with my group, many of who have not been following this at all. But as heinous as their initial action was, their response has been pretty good (although it could have come out sooner - the delay does make me feel that there has been some intra-company conflict about who takes the wheel). So I'm saving drastic action for when something actually happens.
I'm all for holding Hasbro accountable for the ****up on OGL 1.1. But there is a large contingent that just wants WotC to burn and will only be satisfied with OGL1.0a with no changes. They are kind of loss causes.
I wonder how much overlap there is between the "Burn WotC" and the "You changed Race you f*ck*rs!!"
Meanwhile they champion Paizo, who has had their own even worse controversies in recent years. Just makes me go.. wait. what?
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On D&D's official Facebook page the vast majority of comments are SIGN THE ORC OR DIE! or even just DIE WOTSEEE! , with the middle ground being "Hasbro needs to sell WotC". While I'd probably like to see Hasbro's back, I'm not really sure anybody else who has the money to buy WotC is any better. Anyway, we got a new DRAFT (just as the first one was a DRAFT) and this time the community can literally "playtest" it. What more do you want? Many of the comments I have seen are worried about the vagueness of words like "inclusive" and "harmful", and I agree those need to be spelled out, (edit) although maybe a better idea would be to allow 3PP to correct any issues or to have an appeals process (edit). But that is what the "playtest" is for, no? 1.0a wasn't irrevocable and was under WotC control. 1.2 (and there will probably be a 1.3 etc. until the document is finalized) will be both irrevocable and out of WotC hands so they can't change it even if they wanted to. Now, while game mechanics are not subject to copyright, creature names and spell names very much are, and WotC is, with the OGL, giving 3PP rights to those copyrightable terms, so it's not true that WotC is giving us what we already have. Should you restart your D&D Beyond subscription? If you can run your campaigns without it, definitely not. The fact WotC capitulated does not mean they don't need to be reminded the TTRPG community is not like many other consumer communities. But I don't think you should boycot Honor Among Thieves because we need to show the world TTRPG feature movies and shows can be profitable, and I definitely don't think spamming D&D One playtests with outrage is at all needed.
OGL 1.1 was terrible. No sane person would have signed it. OGL 1.2 is better than OGL 1.0a except for the vagueness of the terms "inclusive" etc. There will be a survey today (or on Monday). Take it. It is being read and taken into account. Let us see what we can do to move forward, without forgetting all that came before.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I can't speak to what's happening on Facebook, but what's happening here makes me wonder how many members of the "community" are actually that upset
The most incendiary posts on these forums are coming from accounts who haven't posted about any other subject but the OGL. They haven't engaged in rules discussions. They haven't shared a character backstory, or helped someone else craft theirs. They haven't asked for help making a homebrew magic item, or chatted about lost lore from previous editions
There is, in fact, no evidence that they are members of "the community" at all. They are indistinguishable from sock puppet accounts and trolls who are just here to try and rile up and fragment the actual community
If that makes me a gatekeeper, so be it. I am just very, very tired of these boards being flooded with posts from accounts created within the last 24 hours, no posting history at all and with convenient avatars that mark them as part of the "rebellion", who yell about what "the community" should be doing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
100% this! I have recently rediscovered my ignore button. I don't like using it, but there are more than a few that just spew nonsense in every thread, so it is fruitless to attempt to reason with them.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So yes, some people are going overboard, but they need to.
Let's start of by saying, the first one was not a draft, companies have come out saying, they were sent that license to sign, you don't sign a draft.
The community's outrage is really the only thing that got WoTC to back down and come to the table with us. The problem, peace wasn't what WoTC wanted, they wanted an iron grasp on all the money everyone was making and wanted to make it, so they were the only game in town.
As a community, we shouldn't be calm, but we also have to be reasonable. For example, the current draft is better, but it's still got a ton of issues. Also, the VTT policy is trash and just meant to that when they release their VTT, no one can compete with features. So be reasonable and don't give death threats or anything rude, but you should be mad, you should be angry, and you should voice that anger.
Most people are playing without dndbeyond. But it is the most visible forum for dnd. They have been riled up and want to voice their toughts.
Yes some of it is misplaced. But people like their products. people like their 3rd party stuff. People are also afraid of change.
At the end of the day, people talk with their wallets. Mrs Williams has indicated that she wants more from my wallet and also take money from my friends pockets. I will be making a judgment call this weekend and I will rummage through the horde of stuff we have bought from 3rd parties, kickstarters and legacy games we own.
We may decide to forgo going forward with dnd and at a minimum, I will not resubscribe in march.
So, 'the community' is just the people who frequent these boards then?
I assume you realize that such is a far cry from the truth.
Incendiary works both ways. There's a toxic thread describing contributors as rabid hyenas within which all manner of dehumanizing comments are made against those who (reasonably) advocate a strong stance to be taken against WotC. Please can everyone keep perspective? Thanks.
Think what you like. You do you. Don't tell me how I should react.
Hi, I'm someone who has never posted to the forums. In a past life I was a community manager for GalaNet and our forums had about 8% of the community engaged. Most of the "top players" did not engage the forum. I've been playing D&D for 20 years, have 5k hours on Roll20, and own every D&D book. Just because I choose to engage on other communication platforms doesn't make me any less a part of the D&D community or less engaged in the current situation.
Stop gatekeeping.
No...There is no peace in this. I am only a player/DM, not any kind of developer. But, the stance that WotC has taken with the OGL and their treatment of the community (that feeds their machine) is disturbing. The nuke was detonated by WotC and they just haven't seen all of fallout yet. I think it is going to hurt a lot. Don't blame the target of the nuke for being upset.
I have only been back to D&D for about a year (after 15+ years away) and have been collecting hard copy and digital versions (Roll20/DNDBeyond) of content. I had several items on the list to buy this month, but have reprioritized spending and use of time (painting minis that can be used for a wide variety of games). Although, our group will continue to play our campaign it is unlikely that we will support WotC through the purchase of additional materials/spending, unless this is resolved in a way that preserves the existing OGL and the 3rd party content providers that have helped make the last year fun.
I'd say react politely while treating other contributors personally with respect. By so doing you will rise above the base level of some of those that are against strong reactions.
Everyone has a right to post.
I used to be involved with local politics and, at many times, meetings weren't well attended. Then something happened and loads of people who had a vested interest piled in.
It's the same with the forum here. People are invested in various ways in D&D and then we're faced with evidence that our nation is ruled by duplicitous, manipulative liars. There's going to be a reaction.
I don't believe anyone needs to go overboard anymore. The company has opened the floor to discussion and is clearly making a strong effort to get it right now.
We have a means to help them get it right.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
Then you should know better than most what it is I'm talking about, and what happens to online communities that allow the kind of venom we're seeing right now to go unchecked
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Allowing hateful content to be unchecked is very different from your statement of arbitrary metrics to decide who is or is not a legitimate voice.
Right, so would you prefer to suggest that only a select portion of the entire community should be allowed to respond here, based on what you find to be acceptable parameters?
I could be wrong, of course, I'm just asking a question.
I read through the current version of the "draft" OGL. It's pretty simple. It basically says the same crap the secret version said, only they hid it better under legal gibberish and the overuse of the word license. They can still claim to be able to do what they want, when they want, with their stuff and yours. They effectively prevent you from *****ing about it (court).
Congratulations! You're getting my first comment from a 2+ year member here. Don't gatekeep. You're worried about how it looks, gatekeeping is worse.
Do you know what happens? That the reasons that have unleashed the discontent of a large part of the community have not been, and it does not seem that they will be, resolved.
WoTC in its 1.2 says exactly the same as in 1.1 only with better words. But the content is the same except for royalties. Is it enough for you? Perfect, everyone can decide for themselves. But if you didn't like 1.1, take your time to read 1.2 because it's selling you the same thing.
And it's that WoTC does not intend to change its plans regarding 1.1 That was its final document, and they are not going to back down. What they are going to try is to sweeten the pill for you. But his intention is not to listen to the fan, but to continue with his monetization plans as they were proposed. And, of course, they try to stop the bleeding, and the destruction of their brand image. That's what the survey is for.
Because they really know what the opinion of the community is. They don't need to ask. They do it so you think they listen to you, but they will continue with their plans as planned regardless of the result of the survey.
This is a lot more like the reaction I expected people to have when they pulled back on OGL1.1 and have since opened 1.2 up to public scrutiny. I agree with others that the reaction by many has been overblown to the point of suspicion.
Do people have valid concerns? Definitely. Was the initial distribution of OGL1.1 underhanded and predatory? Yes. But companies are not always a monolith, sometimes you have individual people or teams that overstep their bounds and in situations like this get pulled back by others.
You're free to do what you want in reaction to all this, but the weird part is the people actively and fervently campaigning for everyone else to cancel subs, boycott the movie, manufacture and impale WotC voodoo dolls, etc.
I certainly have a plan for an alternate system if things go south and I've brought it up with my group, many of who have not been following this at all. But as heinous as their initial action was, their response has been pretty good (although it could have come out sooner - the delay does make me feel that there has been some intra-company conflict about who takes the wheel). So I'm saving drastic action for when something actually happens.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'm all for holding Hasbro accountable for the ****up on OGL 1.1. But there is a large contingent that just wants WotC to burn and will only be satisfied with OGL1.0a with no changes. They are kind of loss causes.
I wonder how much overlap there is between the "Burn WotC" and the "You changed Race you f*ck*rs!!"
Meanwhile they champion Paizo, who has had their own even worse controversies in recent years. Just makes me go.. wait. what?