I'd say that rogue synergies with the arcane trickster subclass a lot more overall, especially with Booming Blade ---> Sneak attack ---> Cunning Action: Disengage
It creates a fun lockdown and run out of danger playstyle. The illusion and enchantment type spells synergies with rogue's great skills if you can get past the VSM components
Eldritch Knights are fun but they're locked into spamming shield/absorb elements to best use their spell slots. Past level 5 it's just not useful to cast blast spells as your action. I think at level 7+ you can get some good combos with shadow blade. At 13th level you finally have some great casting power with 3rd level spells, but at that point casters are just so much ahead, your martial prowess not making up for that at all
Edit: Haven't really seen anyone mention this, but Eldritch Knights (Arcane Tricksters as well to less of an extent) just suck in an adventuring day since they don't have the spell casting power to get through it, especially when their playstyle is casting Shield a lot, which burns through spell slots. Arcane Tricksters can at least save their spell slots a bit more for utility overall
In addition to what was stated above, if the Eldritch Knight had gotten access to Abjuration & Transmutation spells instead of Abjuration & Evocation, and if the subclass features synergized better with the base class features, the conversation would be totally different regarding the Eldritch Knight. Some of us in the community set about fixing the subclass and this was what we came up with: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/157414-fify-wotc-the-eldritch-knight).
While I admit I haven't played one, I have built one, level by level, looking at what I could do each level and such. I was impressed with the versatility and utility, coupled with solid front line fighting the character would be capable of. Between Shield, Absorb Elements and Misty Step, you become that annoying little gnat that you just can't seem to swat, that packs a nasty bite to boot. If going high level, I would strongly suggest dipping Wizard to add Bladesinger to your repertoire. A handful of added spells and cantrips, a bunch more spell slots and the AC boost and movement from Bladesong, making you even HARDER to hit or get away from.
Personally, on paper, it looks like my favorite subclass.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I personally prefer a 2 level dip into Paladin for an Eldritch Knight over a Wiz dip for the following reasons:
As a half caster it still nets you the same overall spell slot progression as you would get without the dip.
Many good Paladin spells like shield of faith don’t really care about your Cha modifier, so as long as you’ve got enough to qualify for the multiclass you’re gtg.
You can prepare your Paladin spells daily which adds some flexibility to the build.
Divine Smite gives you something to do with your spell slots other than cast the same few spells over and over and really let’s your “gnat” really pack a wallop.
Even a little Lay on Hands is nice, especially since Fighters get Second Wind too. Now you can heal up a little extra if you need to, or play yo-yo with a downed party mate when necessary too.
Now, for an Arcane Trickster I recommend 2 levels of Wizard all day long, and Bladesinger is a top contender up there with Diviner. But for the Eldritch Knight I feel it benefits more from the Paladin dip overall.
I was not aware that EK got a lot of hate, but I do think that some people might approach it with the idea that they want to be a more traditional gish that attacks with both weapons and spells. The class wasn't really designed for that - a 1/3 caster is never going to have the firepower to be a decent blaster. (and typically cantrips don't scratch that itch enough)
What these subclasses bring is a lot of utility, which generally translates as defensive tools for the fighter and mischief-making for the rogue. I think the latter lines up better with the expectations most people bring to the subclass.
So it's down to the impression that Enchantment+Illusion is better overall than Abjuration+Evocation when the PC is 1/2 caster or lower in spell slot progression?
Or is it more that people expect EKs to be better at killing than other Fighter subclasses and are disappointed, while the people expecting ATs to be better at stealing and cutthroating have their expectations met?
IOW, is the difference in popularity due more to differing expectations or more that spell selection for EKs kinda bite it?
I played an eldritch knight up to level 7 as I was trying to make an elemental fire themed swordmage. I hated it so much that I eventually spoke with my DM and we reworked my character to be another class (champion fighter/forge cleric multiclass).
The reason I utterly can't stand EK is because it's trying to be 5e's arcane gish (alongside bladesinger), and yet both subclasses miss out the features which made prior edition arcane gishes fun to play. The 3.5e duskblade and the pathfinder magus allowed you to cast spells directly through weapon attacks as their core feature. The 4e swordmage had tons of magic 'strikes' which let you apply magical effect via weapon attacks.
To me, eldritch knight is like making paladin into a fighter subclass, while removing its smite and aura abilities. No paladin fan is going to be happy with that.
Yeah, if one wants to blast and slash, the Eldritch Knight is not what you wanna go with, play a bladelock instead. If you wanna use magic to augment your defense so you can more safely smack stuff with your sword then you’ll be alright with EK.
So it's down to the impression that Enchantment+Illusion is better overall than Abjuration+Evocation when the PC is 1/2 caster or lower in spell slot progression?
Or is it more that people expect EKs to be better at killing than other Fighter subclasses and are disappointed, while the people expecting ATs to be better at stealing and cutthroating have their expectations met?
IOW, is the difference in popularity due more to differing expectations or more that spell selection for EKs kinda bite it?
I would say its a combination of both, primarily due to Evocation not really scaling the same way as the other three schools.
Spells like Shield, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Disguise Self are just as effective at level 10 as they are at level 1. Those level 1 slots stay relevant and provide meaningful, useful options - which is good, cause low level slots are all you get.
Using the same slot on Burning Hands at level 10, however, is inevitably going to be a disappointment because offensive spells require upcasting to stay relevant.
So like Sposta said, if EK focused on another school that had low-level spells that retain their utility at higher levels, there would be fewer "trap" options and likely fewer instances of misaligned expectations.
Honestly, I don’t see the point of an Eldritch Knight subclass, when you can already have a Fighter/Wizard multi class.
To be fair, Multiclassing this way gives you additional subclass features, however, you are also losing out on your Fighter progression.
E.g. a 5th level EK has Extra Attack and an ASI/Feat with 3x 1st level spell slots, while a multiclass fighter/wizard would be Fighter 3 / Wizard 2, if you also want to have 3x 1st level spellslots, but you are missing Extra Attack and the ASI.
At Level 11 that would be 2x Extra Attack vs. Fighter 7 / Wizard 4.
Yes, that can be optimized, but if you want to go full Fighter with a bit of magic on the side, multiclassing into wizard might not be always the best to do.
Seems like Eldritch Knights are much less popular than Arcane Tricksters even though both use the Wizard spell list and both are 1/3 casters.
What's the reason?
Is there any D&D Beyond data indicating Eldritch Knight is less polular than Arcane Trickster?
No data scraped for this thread. :P. It's more an observation based on how often people post about the EK on the Fighter class forum vs. the number who post about the AT on the Rogue forum.
Eldritch Knight 7 when backed up with Bladesinger 6 seems awesome.
Have a good primary sword or cast shadow blade. Attack Use the Bladesinger Extra Attack which allows you to cast one of your (potentially weapon-based) cantrips in place of one of the attacks. Use the Eldritch Knight War Magic which means that, following using your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action (which can again be with your main shadow blade and use your modifiers).
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Looking on Google, and what I've seen suggests that Eldritch Knight is the 3rd most popular Fighter subclass.
Considering some of its competition (Champ, Purple Dragon Knight), that’s not saying a ton. Plus, the most popular subclasses are typically from the PHB, which makes the EK 3rd of 3. Is it popular? Sure. Is it as popular as the Arcane Trickster…? I’d be surprised if it is. Not to mention that there is a vocal group that maligned the EK for its shortcomings quite vociferously, for the reasons cited above.👆
Looking on Google, and what I've seen suggests that Eldritch Knight is the 3rd most popular Fighter subclass.
Considering some of its competition (Champ, Purple Dragon Knight), that’s not saying a ton. Plus, the most popular subclasses are typically from the PHB, which makes the EK 3rd of 3. Is it popular? Sure. Is it as popular as the Arcane Trickster…? I’d be surprised if it is. Not to mention that there is a vocal group that maligned the EK for its shortcomings quite vociferously, for the reasons cited above.👆
Well, both AT and EK have the same proportion of uses of their respective subclasses (16%) and the Fighter is used more than the Rogue (12% v 9%), then that does imply that EK is more popular than AT.
For your point about it being 3 of 3 in the PHB, AT gets beaten out by a non-PHB subclass and so is 3 of 2.
As an aside, Champion is the most popular Fighter subclass.
That's all according to one table, but while the exact percentages vary (probably different times of samples), they bear the same patterns.
Are there confounding factors? Sure. But it gives a good idea that the claim that they're "much less popular than Arcane Tricksters" is probably less than accurate. That's not to say that EK is good, but popularity isn't correlated (at least, certainly not strictly) with good in my experience.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
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Seems like Eldritch Knights are much less popular than Arcane Tricksters even though both use the Wizard spell list and both are 1/3 casters.
What's the reason?
I'd say that rogue synergies with the arcane trickster subclass a lot more overall, especially with Booming Blade ---> Sneak attack ---> Cunning Action: Disengage
It creates a fun lockdown and run out of danger playstyle. The illusion and enchantment type spells synergies with rogue's great skills if you can get past the VSM components
Eldritch Knights are fun but they're locked into spamming shield/absorb elements to best use their spell slots. Past level 5 it's just not useful to cast blast spells as your action. I think at level 7+ you can get some good combos with shadow blade. At 13th level you finally have some great casting power with 3rd level spells, but at that point casters are just so much ahead, your martial prowess not making up for that at all
Edit: Haven't really seen anyone mention this, but Eldritch Knights (Arcane Tricksters as well to less of an extent) just suck in an adventuring day since they don't have the spell casting power to get through it, especially when their playstyle is casting Shield a lot, which burns through spell slots. Arcane Tricksters can at least save their spell slots a bit more for utility overall
Also, rogue subclasses are mostly about what you do in addition to being a rogue. Fighter subclasses are about how you fighter better.
Is there any D&D Beyond data indicating Eldritch Knight is less polular than Arcane Trickster?
In addition to what was stated above, if the Eldritch Knight had gotten access to Abjuration & Transmutation spells instead of Abjuration & Evocation, and if the subclass features synergized better with the base class features, the conversation would be totally different regarding the Eldritch Knight. Some of us in the community set about fixing the subclass and this was what we came up with: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/157414-fify-wotc-the-eldritch-knight).
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While I admit I haven't played one, I have built one, level by level, looking at what I could do each level and such. I was impressed with the versatility and utility, coupled with solid front line fighting the character would be capable of. Between Shield, Absorb Elements and Misty Step, you become that annoying little gnat that you just can't seem to swat, that packs a nasty bite to boot. If going high level, I would strongly suggest dipping Wizard to add Bladesinger to your repertoire. A handful of added spells and cantrips, a bunch more spell slots and the AC boost and movement from Bladesong, making you even HARDER to hit or get away from.
Personally, on paper, it looks like my favorite subclass.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I personally prefer a 2 level dip into Paladin for an Eldritch Knight over a Wiz dip for the following reasons:
Now, for an Arcane Trickster I recommend 2 levels of Wizard all day long, and Bladesinger is a top contender up there with Diviner. But for the Eldritch Knight I feel it benefits more from the Paladin dip overall.
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I was not aware that EK got a lot of hate, but I do think that some people might approach it with the idea that they want to be a more traditional gish that attacks with both weapons and spells. The class wasn't really designed for that - a 1/3 caster is never going to have the firepower to be a decent blaster. (and typically cantrips don't scratch that itch enough)
What these subclasses bring is a lot of utility, which generally translates as defensive tools for the fighter and mischief-making for the rogue. I think the latter lines up better with the expectations most people bring to the subclass.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
So it's down to the impression that Enchantment+Illusion is better overall than Abjuration+Evocation when the PC is 1/2 caster or lower in spell slot progression?
Or is it more that people expect EKs to be better at killing than other Fighter subclasses and are disappointed, while the people expecting ATs to be better at stealing and cutthroating have their expectations met?
IOW, is the difference in popularity due more to differing expectations or more that spell selection for EKs kinda bite it?
I played an eldritch knight up to level 7 as I was trying to make an elemental fire themed swordmage. I hated it so much that I eventually spoke with my DM and we reworked my character to be another class (champion fighter/forge cleric multiclass).
The reason I utterly can't stand EK is because it's trying to be 5e's arcane gish (alongside bladesinger), and yet both subclasses miss out the features which made prior edition arcane gishes fun to play. The 3.5e duskblade and the pathfinder magus allowed you to cast spells directly through weapon attacks as their core feature. The 4e swordmage had tons of magic 'strikes' which let you apply magical effect via weapon attacks.
To me, eldritch knight is like making paladin into a fighter subclass, while removing its smite and aura abilities. No paladin fan is going to be happy with that.
Yeah, if one wants to blast and slash, the Eldritch Knight is not what you wanna go with, play a bladelock instead. If you wanna use magic to augment your defense so you can more safely smack stuff with your sword then you’ll be alright with EK.
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I would say its a combination of both, primarily due to Evocation not really scaling the same way as the other three schools.
Spells like Shield, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Disguise Self are just as effective at level 10 as they are at level 1. Those level 1 slots stay relevant and provide meaningful, useful options - which is good, cause low level slots are all you get.
Using the same slot on Burning Hands at level 10, however, is inevitably going to be a disappointment because offensive spells require upcasting to stay relevant.
So like Sposta said, if EK focused on another school that had low-level spells that retain their utility at higher levels, there would be fewer "trap" options and likely fewer instances of misaligned expectations.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Honestly, I don’t see the point of an Eldritch Knight subclass, when you can already have a Fighter/Wizard multi class.
To be fair, Multiclassing this way gives you additional subclass features, however, you are also losing out on your Fighter progression.
E.g. a 5th level EK has Extra Attack and an ASI/Feat with 3x 1st level spell slots, while a multiclass fighter/wizard would be Fighter 3 / Wizard 2, if you also want to have 3x 1st level spellslots, but you are missing Extra Attack and the ASI.
At Level 11 that would be 2x Extra Attack vs. Fighter 7 / Wizard 4.
Yes, that can be optimized, but if you want to go full Fighter with a bit of magic on the side, multiclassing into wizard might not be always the best to do.
Tbh I'd rather not have an eldritch knight subclass either. But for a completely different reason.
It should be a full class.
No data scraped for this thread. :P. It's more an observation based on how often people post about the EK on the Fighter class forum vs. the number who post about the AT on the Rogue forum.
Eldritch Knight 7 when backed up with Bladesinger 6 seems awesome.
Have a good primary sword or cast shadow blade.
Attack
Use the Bladesinger Extra Attack which allows you to cast one of your (potentially weapon-based) cantrips in place of one of the attacks.
Use the Eldritch Knight War Magic which means that, following using your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action (which can again be with your main shadow blade and use your modifiers).
Looking on Google, what I've seen suggests that Eldritch Knight is the 3rd most popular Fighter subclass.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Considering some of its competition (Champ, Purple Dragon Knight), that’s not saying a ton. Plus, the most popular subclasses are typically from the PHB, which makes the EK 3rd of 3. Is it popular? Sure. Is it as popular as the Arcane Trickster…? I’d be surprised if it is. Not to mention that there is a vocal group that maligned the EK for its shortcomings quite vociferously, for the reasons cited above.👆
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Well, both AT and EK have the same proportion of uses of their respective subclasses (16%) and the Fighter is used more than the Rogue (12% v 9%), then that does imply that EK is more popular than AT.
For your point about it being 3 of 3 in the PHB, AT gets beaten out by a non-PHB subclass and so is 3 of 2.
As an aside, Champion is the most popular Fighter subclass.
That's all according to one table, but while the exact percentages vary (probably different times of samples), they bear the same patterns.
Are there confounding factors? Sure. But it gives a good idea that the claim that they're "much less popular than Arcane Tricksters" is probably less than accurate. That's not to say that EK is good, but popularity isn't correlated (at least, certainly not strictly) with good in my experience.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.