DMing a campaign and one player has a necromantic power that allows them to collect the souls of sentient creatures.
My question is this: do "spirit like" undead creatures (Allip, ghosts, banshee or poltergeist) have a soul that could be captured in this way? I know there's not really rules for this sort of thing because it's kind of a metaphysical question; I'm more curious if there is an argument to be made one way or another if this comes up in game?
My initial thoughts are that animated undead with physical bodies such as skeletons or zombies do not have a 'soul' to capture as they are basically puppets, but intelligent undead like vampires and lichs do. Incorporeal undead creatures can sometimes be interpreted as a left-over 'impression' of a once living creature and sometimes can be interpreted as having their own volitions.
I would just like some outside input before I make a decision one way or the other, if you could spare the time.
I would go with saying that things like skeletons, zombies and ghouls, have no souls, reanimated by the power of the magic. However the more spirit type undead such as ghosts and banshee, wraith, are the actual persons spirit trapped on the material plane, looking to Finnish one last thing before they "move on".
If this is a printed feature or spell, then follow whatever the text says. If this is something more story-based that got added on, then as above it’s mostly a DM call.
While I agree it’s a DM ruling, there’s the phantom rogue. It can harvest a soul from any creature that dies within 30’. There’s no mention of any exceptions, so you can make an argument that RAW, every creature has one.
Of course you could debate it, since they harvest when a creature dies. And since undead had already died, they wouldn’t qualify. And it’s also arguable if constructs are alive. Which gets us back to a DM ruling. I don’t think I’d argue the point if my DM told me I couldn’t use the power on skeletons, for example.
Something that gets lost in 5th ed is that ALL rules in the book are suggestions. As the DM, its your world, not WOTC's world. Whatever you want to happen is whats real in your game.
I mean, if it’s a hard feature that defines what you can and can’t take from, then you are potentially in for some performance issues if you alter the parameters one way or another. Otherwise, it’s something the DM is inventing, and as such it’s definitely up to them to sort out the particulars.
I would rule that corporeal undead like skeletons and zombies, but also including vampires and liches have no souls. A vampire’s soul is lost when it dies while being turned, and a lich sticks theirs in a phylactery when it becomes a lich. I would rule that for incorporeal undead, some of them like a ghost or a banshee they are souls.
I mean, if it’s a hard feature that defines what you can and can’t take from, then you are potentially in for some performance issues if you alter the parameters one way or another. Otherwise, it’s something the DM is inventing, and as such it’s definitely up to them to sort out the particulars.
This.
If it's an actual canonical feature, then it will outline any exceptions (or boundaries), just follow those. For example, the Phantom Rogue feature just defines valid targets as *creatures* *that you see* *die* *within 30'*, so in terms of *what*, the answer is anything that isn't a simple construction. If the OP were to name the specific feature, we could discuss it and name exactly what the boundaries and exceptions are. Until then though, all we can say is read the feature.
Of course, a DM is free to make their own rulings. Sposta can say that Zombies don't have souls so they don't count. DM Bob could say that humans don't count because *reasons*. I'd be careful about making such rulings either "in media res" or post hoc. You're messing with the meaning and... that's likely to ruffle feathers. Depending on what's happened, the player may well have invested his character into this, and you're potentially wrecking it. Example in my own games:
I was playing a Wizard, L1, chose Knock. I was in a prison, we were in the middle of trying to break out and we came to a locked door. Our lockpicker was embroiled in other hijinks, the pressure was starting to mount, so I was split fairly evenly between casting Knock and calling the Rogue over to deal with it for free. I decided to just cast it..."Roll to unlock". WTF? That's not how Knock works, and if all it did was allow me to add +1 to my roll (my Dex was slightly lower than my Int) or avoid calling over the Rogue (who had the potential to fail anyway, like I would by rolling), I would not have invested a spell known, a spell prepared and 50% of my spell slots for the day into Knock. It wasn't end of the world, since it just became a pointless spell known...but it rankled.
Assuming it's in preparation or the player is asking clarification on your homebrew feature, I'd declare that automaton undead, like Zombies, have none, spirits do and so forth. That needs to be made clear before the player invests into it though. There can be a window if the player says they don't care either way, it's just for their knowledge.
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Biologically reproducing creatures on the prime material plane. Set whatever lower bar you like for sentience/sapience/whatever. If you think dogs should have one, but not cats - that makes sense to me - then so be it. If only higher thinking creatures, maybe only the elves have one. That'd be a blow to all the ape-centric campaignworlds out there.
Undead are kind of a special case. Is their soul what powers them? I'd say no. In my games, all that remains of an undead creatures soul is all the hate and spite, all the bad memories, just a broken mirror, splinters of pain and suffering with nothing to soften things up. That's why they're all evil. They also have nothing even close to free will - they can only act on those painful splinters of the person they once were.
But everything else, outsiders, aberations, no soul!
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So I would go with what is already in place. The legendary Blackrazor weapon devours souls unless it is undead or a construct. So I would think that is pure RAW. Anything else would be DM fiat.
As others have said, this is more a world building question than it is a rules question, although there might be a rules debate here regarding Blackrazor versus Phantom rogue that probably hinges on what the term "dies" means in certain contexts.
This often ties into how you want necromancy to be viewed in your world, since puppeteering dead bodies without souls might be creepy and a bit disrespectful as opposed to "classic" evil necromancy that prevents souls from moving on.
I think Sposta's take works well as a default. Bodies are just bodies, sentients have relinquished their souls, and spirits are pretty much purely souls.
DMing a campaign and one player has a necromantic power that allows them to collect the souls of sentient creatures.
My question is this: do "spirit like" undead creatures (Allip, ghosts, banshee or poltergeist) have a soul that could be captured in this way? I know there's not really rules for this sort of thing because it's kind of a metaphysical question; I'm more curious if there is an argument to be made one way or another if this comes up in game?
My initial thoughts are that animated undead with physical bodies such as skeletons or zombies do not have a 'soul' to capture as they are basically puppets, but intelligent undead like vampires and lichs do. Incorporeal undead creatures can sometimes be interpreted as a left-over 'impression' of a once living creature and sometimes can be interpreted as having their own volitions.
I would just like some outside input before I make a decision one way or the other, if you could spare the time.
I would go with saying that things like skeletons, zombies and ghouls, have no souls, reanimated by the power of the magic. However the more spirit type undead such as ghosts and banshee, wraith, are the actual persons spirit trapped on the material plane, looking to Finnish one last thing before they "move on".
If this is a printed feature or spell, then follow whatever the text says. If this is something more story-based that got added on, then as above it’s mostly a DM call.
For me, any sapient undead still has a soul that's lingering, even if its twisted, dark and evil.
While I agree it’s a DM ruling, there’s the phantom rogue. It can harvest a soul from any creature that dies within 30’. There’s no mention of any exceptions, so you can make an argument that RAW, every creature has one.
Of course you could debate it, since they harvest when a creature dies. And since undead had already died, they wouldn’t qualify. And it’s also arguable if constructs are alive. Which gets us back to a DM ruling. I don’t think I’d argue the point if my DM told me I couldn’t use the power on skeletons, for example.
whatever ones you want to.
Something that gets lost in 5th ed is that ALL rules in the book are suggestions. As the DM, its your world, not WOTC's world. Whatever you want to happen is whats real in your game.
I mean, if it’s a hard feature that defines what you can and can’t take from, then you are potentially in for some performance issues if you alter the parameters one way or another. Otherwise, it’s something the DM is inventing, and as such it’s definitely up to them to sort out the particulars.
I would rule that corporeal undead like skeletons and zombies, but also including vampires and liches have no souls. A vampire’s soul is lost when it dies while being turned, and a lich sticks theirs in a phylactery when it becomes a lich. I would rule that for incorporeal undead, some of them like a ghost or a banshee they are souls.
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This.
If it's an actual canonical feature, then it will outline any exceptions (or boundaries), just follow those. For example, the Phantom Rogue feature just defines valid targets as *creatures* *that you see* *die* *within 30'*, so in terms of *what*, the answer is anything that isn't a simple construction. If the OP were to name the specific feature, we could discuss it and name exactly what the boundaries and exceptions are. Until then though, all we can say is read the feature.
Of course, a DM is free to make their own rulings. Sposta can say that Zombies don't have souls so they don't count. DM Bob could say that humans don't count because *reasons*. I'd be careful about making such rulings either "in media res" or post hoc. You're messing with the meaning and... that's likely to ruffle feathers. Depending on what's happened, the player may well have invested his character into this, and you're potentially wrecking it. Example in my own games:
I was playing a Wizard, L1, chose Knock. I was in a prison, we were in the middle of trying to break out and we came to a locked door. Our lockpicker was embroiled in other hijinks, the pressure was starting to mount, so I was split fairly evenly between casting Knock and calling the Rogue over to deal with it for free. I decided to just cast it..."Roll to unlock". WTF? That's not how Knock works, and if all it did was allow me to add +1 to my roll (my Dex was slightly lower than my Int) or avoid calling over the Rogue (who had the potential to fail anyway, like I would by rolling), I would not have invested a spell known, a spell prepared and 50% of my spell slots for the day into Knock. It wasn't end of the world, since it just became a pointless spell known...but it rankled.
Assuming it's in preparation or the player is asking clarification on your homebrew feature, I'd declare that automaton undead, like Zombies, have none, spirits do and so forth. That needs to be made clear before the player invests into it though. There can be a window if the player says they don't care either way, it's just for their knowledge.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Hm.
Biologically reproducing creatures on the prime material plane. Set whatever lower bar you like for sentience/sapience/whatever. If you think dogs should have one, but not cats - that makes sense to me - then so be it. If only higher thinking creatures, maybe only the elves have one. That'd be a blow to all the ape-centric campaignworlds out there.
Undead are kind of a special case. Is their soul what powers them? I'd say no. In my games, all that remains of an undead creatures soul is all the hate and spite, all the bad memories, just a broken mirror, splinters of pain and suffering with nothing to soften things up. That's why they're all evil. They also have nothing even close to free will - they can only act on those painful splinters of the person they once were.
But everything else, outsiders, aberations, no soul!
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So I would go with what is already in place. The legendary Blackrazor weapon devours souls unless it is undead or a construct. So I would think that is pure RAW. Anything else would be DM fiat.
As others have said, this is more a world building question than it is a rules question, although there might be a rules debate here regarding Blackrazor versus Phantom rogue that probably hinges on what the term "dies" means in certain contexts.
This often ties into how you want necromancy to be viewed in your world, since puppeteering dead bodies without souls might be creepy and a bit disrespectful as opposed to "classic" evil necromancy that prevents souls from moving on.
I think Sposta's take works well as a default. Bodies are just bodies, sentients have relinquished their souls, and spirits are pretty much purely souls.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm