While researching DnD and its inner workings, I quickly learned that intelligence is a dump stat for seemingly nearly everybody minus wizards and artificers. To me, that's a real shame! I would like to play as a tactical thinking fighter, a crafty and clever rouge or warlock, or my favorite concept; a well-educated paladin. If you get the perfect rolls you want or use standard scores then I'd imagine this isn't a problem. But after messing around with the point buy system, I've found it's very difficult to perfectly get what you want. Even as a human (I enjoy playing human martial classes, I guess I'm boring like that) I always find I'm one or two points off from perfection. So what do you guys think? Should I throw in the towel and go for a more standard build, or keep trying something more unorthodox?
I've got a gnome Fighter (Rune Knight) with 16 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 8 Wisdom, and 12 Charisma. He works great. The idea is that he's a librarian and "special linguist" who got his Strength from tattooing runes onto his body, which means this scholarly and not-at-all warrior type gets to be a giant beast in combat. I don't have any trouble with the stats except for the low Wisdom, and it would have been easy for me to lower Charisma and Dexterity a bit to make it higher.
Why do you think it's difficult to make a character with a decent Intelligence score?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Just from a mechanical perspective, the good thing for playing a martial class that can wear heavy armour like paladin or fighter is that you can dump dex if you want. So you could max out STR/CHA and CON (depending on you build for paladin/fighter) and still get a very decent score in INT (a 14 is very good at 1st level).
But most importantly, don't be afraid to build your character sub-optimally. By that I mean, you martial doesn't need to have 15 STR, 15 DEX and 15 CON while dumping WIS, INT and CHA to 8 to be effective. You can enjoy the game and be quiet effective with a bit lower stats, not need to min-max everything (of course if that's what you enjoy in the game, than have at it). So if you feel like player a high INT paladin, then go for it. You will have fun either way, no need to completely max out all your martial stats to be effective.
I've got a gnome Fighter (Rune Knight) with 16 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 8 Wisdom, and 12 Charisma. He works great. The idea is that he's a librarian and "special linguist" who got his Strength from tattooing runes onto his body, which means this scholarly and not-at-all warrior type gets to be a giant beast in combat. I don't have any trouble with the stats except for the low Wisdom, and it would have been easy for me to lower Charisma and Dexterity a bit to make it higher.
Why do you think it's difficult to make a character with a decent Intelligence score?
Honestly... I don't know why, other than I'm phycing myself out! I just came up with a build that I like: 14 8 14 14 8 16. The issue here is that I have one point left over and I reallllly want to use it on strength, but I would need 2 points, not one. I'm thinking of going a hexadin with this setup. I just don't know if taking Resilient (my level one vhuman feat to boost constitution to 14) and taking War Caster (for hexadin) together is a good idea. It's little things like these that drive me crazy and make me feel like I'm just shy of perfection. Of course, I could always go standard human. that could also work... Making everything 15 9 14 14 9 16! But that means I would still have one point left to spend, and I don't eant to raise either dex or wis to 10 as I want to keep my dex and wisdom scores low for roleplaying purposes.
Just from a mechanical perspective, the good thing for playing a martial class that can wear heavy armour like paladin or fighter is that you can dump dex if you want. So you could max out STR/CHA and CON (depending on you build for paladin/fighter) and still get a very decent score in INT (a 14 is very good at 1st level).
But most importantly, don't be afraid to build your character sub-optimally. By that I mean, you martial doesn't need to have 15 STR, 15 DEX and 15 CON while dumping WIS, INT and CHA to 8 to be effective. You can enjoy the game and be quiet effective with a bit lower stats, not need to min-max everything (of course if that's what you enjoy in the game, than have at it). So if you feel like player a high INT paladin, then go for it. You will have fun either way, no need to completely max out all your martial stats to be effective.
You're right, I shouldn't be so afraid of a bit of sub-optimality. It can make roleplaying more fun! Liking having a low dex score, and having a low wisdom but high int score!
Really the thing to remember is that any mental stat is a valid dump if you’re not casting with it or taking skills for it. The focus on INT imo largely comes from players who- consciously or subconsciously- assume they have enough experience that they can metagame a lot of knowledge they need. They broadly know what does and doesn’t work on monsters and how spells function even if they’re not playing a caster, and this can bleed into how they play their character and what rolls they expect to make often.
Really the thing to remember is that any mental stat is a valid dump if you’re not casting with it or taking skills for it. The focus on INT imo largely comes from players who- consciously or subconsciously- assume they have enough experience that they can metagame a lot of knowledge they need. They broadly know what does and doesn’t work on monsters and how spells function even if they’re not playing a caster, and this can bleed into how they play their character and what rolls they expect to make often.
This is true to a point. But I think the bigger issue is saving throws, which I realize is still a meta-game/power game perspective, though from a different angle. There's just more wisdom saves, and failing them usually means you're charmed or dominated or held or something else where you end up more-or-less removed from the fight. It's just more dangerous to lose out on wis than with the other two mental stats. And throw in perception being wis based, where the extra point or two, even if you're not proficient, is going to be useful. So, I'll happily dump int or cha, but wis is hard to let go of.
To the OP's point, I would love it if they brought back older editions bonuses for higher int, like an extra language/skill proficiency per point of int. But that would be its own can of worms and nothing like it showed up in the playtests, so I'm not going to hold my breath.
WIS does have a bit more theoretical weight, but considering that unless WIS is a primary stat it’s unlikely to be higher than 16 and in many cases closer to 14, the mod is relatively minor relative to the DC of the more powerful effects. Which isn’t to say I don’t think they could stand to distribute saves a bit more evenly. Pretty sure Perception and Insight are larger reasons why people favor it over INT.
You mentioned Fighter, Rogue, Warlock and Paladin. Fighter has Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, both of whom use INT to determine their DCs. Rogue has Arcane Trickster, which does the same, as well as Inquisitive, which can make INT(Investigation) checks in combat as a bonus action, and later on can get advantage on them. You won't use the Inquisitive features much, I reckon, but they're there. Warlock has nothing for you, as far as I'm aware, though it does have a fair few INT skill options. Paladin only has the Religion skill, since they already have spellcasting locked into CHA, and no skill-related features.
If you're using feats, you could use something like Magic Initiate (Wizard) to try and make some use of your high INT bonus. Otherwise... Not really.
A nice simple house rule could be, characters know languages equal to their INT bonus. +2 bonus, 2 languages beyond Common. That's instead of getting languages from your background and race, probably. If you have a negative modifier then maybe you only speak your racial language and not Common. That could be fun for some. Idk.
WIS does have a bit more theoretical weight, but considering that unless WIS is a primary stat it’s unlikely to be higher than 16 and in many cases closer to 14, the mod is relatively minor relative to the DC of the more powerful effects. Which isn’t to say I don’t think they could stand to distribute saves a bit more evenly. Pretty sure Perception and Insight are larger reasons why people favor it over INT.
To me personally, having a paladin who is intelligent means that he can think tactically and outside of the box with plenty of knowledge to spare… BUT with low wisdom he may not have the best street smarts and might try to get along with some unfriendly people or not pick up on subtle social cues. That’s what I’m trying to go for. Like at least a +2 int and a -1 wis. I think it would be fun!
maybe if I decide to subclass and choose hexblade (for the very useful hex warrior feature) I could fit some sort of dynamic between the young oath of redemption paladin and his newfound teasing and sometimes antagonistic hex sword?
You mentioned Fighter, Rogue, Warlock and Paladin. Fighter has Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, both of whom use INT to determine their DCs. Rogue has Arcane Trickster, which does the same, as well as Inquisitive, which can make INT(Investigation) checks in combat as a bonus action, and later on can get advantage on them. You won't use the Inquisitive features much, I reckon, but they're there. Warlock has nothing for you, as far as I'm aware, though it does have a fair few INT skill options. Paladin only has the Religion skill, since they already have spellcasting locked into CHA, and no skill-related features.
If you're using feats, you could use something like Magic Initiate (Wizard) to try and make some use of your high INT bonus. Otherwise... Not really.
A nice simple house rule could be, characters know languages equal to their INT bonus. +2 bonus, 2 languages beyond Common. That's instead of getting languages from your background and race, probably. If you have a negative modifier then maybe you only speak your racial language and not Common. That could be fun for some. Idk.
Oh yes that is true. Fighters and rouges do have subclasses that put some focus on intelligence. I really like the eldritch knight subclass, they’re really cool.
The funny thing about the Eldritch Knight is that it can absolutely get away with dump-statting Intelligence. The number of spells they know is fixed based on their level so you're not able to prepare any extras. If you focus on Abjuration spells with Magic Missile and Booming Blade as your token offensive spells, you don't need to worry about saving throws or spell attacks. And none of the subclass's special abilities require Int.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thinking "tactically" I honestly think is more a matter of WIS (wits and common sense). Thinking "strategically" I'd say is more INT. Tactics tells you what to do on the field with the enemy bearing down on you. Strategy gets you to that field, to include things like choosing where (and maybe whether) to fight a pitched battle and how to manage the most efficient logistical path to getting there.
It depends how you play. INT is the stat of investigation, research and retention of the products of those two endeavors. Some DMs spoon-feed information "Ok, you find the book, and the book says....". Using INT to mechanize that part of the game, allows a player to recognize artifacts and markers of history, religion, arcane, etc. And rather than spoon-fed, they could be given (like in real life) a bunch of contradictory and competing answers and the check will allow a character to sort out the truth of it all. iNT is the stat of the character who "knows things."
If the DM wants to discourage use of the aforementioned meta knowledge, leaning in on INT as to what a character may know outside their direct experience makes a lot of sense.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thinking "tactically" I honestly think is more a matter of WIS (wits and common sense). Thinking "strategically" I'd say is more INT. Tactics tells you what to do on the field with the enemy bearing down on you. Strategy gets you to that field, to include things like choosing where (and maybe whether) to fight a pitched battle and how to manage the most efficient logistical path to getting there.
It depends how you play. INT is the stat of investigation, research and retention of the products of those two endeavors. Some DMs spoon-feed information "Ok, you find the book, and the book says....". Using INT to mechanize that part of the game, allows a player to recognize artifacts and markers of history, religion, arcane, etc. And rather than spoon-fed, they could be given (like in real life) a bunch of contradictory and competing answers and the check will allow a character to sort out the truth of it all. iNT is the stat of the character who "knows things."
If the DM wants to discourage use of the aforementioned meta knowledge, leaning in on INT as to what a character may know outside their direct experience makes a lot of sense.
That's a good way to look at it. I would rather roleplay as a character who thinks strategically. After all, I enjoy strategy games! I'll talk to my DM to see how they like to DM, and whether or not they'd be open to reducing the amount of "meta-knowledge" in our games. I think it would be fun.
Fighter has Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, both of whom use INT to determine their DCs.
Fighter also has Psi Warrior, which provides some decent Intelligence-scaling options.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The funny thing about the Eldritch Knight is that it can absolutely get away with dump-statting Intelligence. The number of spells they know is fixed based on their level so you're not able to prepare any extras. If you focus on Abjuration spells with Magic Missile and Booming Blade as your token offensive spells, you don't need to worry about saving throws or spell attacks. And none of the subclass's special abilities require Int.
I'd almost take this even further and say a high INT leads you to trap selections with Eldritch Knight. As a 1/3 caster, spending your action on level 1 or 2 offensive spells at level 6 is going to be a disappointment. The defensive and utility spells that don't need INT also happen to be the most useful and best scaling options available.
All that to say that a 14 INT is doable on any fighter build and don't let anyone tell you different. Remember you can also ask the DM to consider unorthodox ability-skill pairings as long as you can justify them, such as Insight(INT) to examine an enemy force in order to determine their tactics.
I wouldn’t say high INT on an EK is a trap in and of itself; one simple early combo of Earth Tremor or Hold Person followed by Action Surge is a good way to set enemies up for attacks, and it’s valid at all tiers. Now, focusing on damage dealing spells is a trap.
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While researching DnD and its inner workings, I quickly learned that intelligence is a dump stat for seemingly nearly everybody minus wizards and artificers. To me, that's a real shame! I would like to play as a tactical thinking fighter, a crafty and clever rouge or warlock, or my favorite concept; a well-educated paladin. If you get the perfect rolls you want or use standard scores then I'd imagine this isn't a problem. But after messing around with the point buy system, I've found it's very difficult to perfectly get what you want. Even as a human (I enjoy playing human martial classes, I guess I'm boring like that) I always find I'm one or two points off from perfection. So what do you guys think? Should I throw in the towel and go for a more standard build, or keep trying something more unorthodox?
I don't think it's too hard.
I've got a gnome Fighter (Rune Knight) with 16 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 8 Wisdom, and 12 Charisma. He works great. The idea is that he's a librarian and "special linguist" who got his Strength from tattooing runes onto his body, which means this scholarly and not-at-all warrior type gets to be a giant beast in combat. I don't have any trouble with the stats except for the low Wisdom, and it would have been easy for me to lower Charisma and Dexterity a bit to make it higher.
Why do you think it's difficult to make a character with a decent Intelligence score?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Just from a mechanical perspective, the good thing for playing a martial class that can wear heavy armour like paladin or fighter is that you can dump dex if you want. So you could max out STR/CHA and CON (depending on you build for paladin/fighter) and still get a very decent score in INT (a 14 is very good at 1st level).
But most importantly, don't be afraid to build your character sub-optimally. By that I mean, you martial doesn't need to have 15 STR, 15 DEX and 15 CON while dumping WIS, INT and CHA to 8 to be effective. You can enjoy the game and be quiet effective with a bit lower stats, not need to min-max everything (of course if that's what you enjoy in the game, than have at it).
So if you feel like player a high INT paladin, then go for it. You will have fun either way, no need to completely max out all your martial stats to be effective.
Honestly... I don't know why, other than I'm phycing myself out! I just came up with a build that I like: 14 8 14 14 8 16. The issue here is that I have one point left over and I reallllly want to use it on strength, but I would need 2 points, not one. I'm thinking of going a hexadin with this setup. I just don't know if taking Resilient (my level one vhuman feat to boost constitution to 14) and taking War Caster (for hexadin) together is a good idea. It's little things like these that drive me crazy and make me feel like I'm just shy of perfection. Of course, I could always go standard human. that could also work... Making everything 15 9 14 14 9 16! But that means I would still have one point left to spend, and I don't eant to raise either dex or wis to 10 as I want to keep my dex and wisdom scores low for roleplaying purposes.
You're right, I shouldn't be so afraid of a bit of sub-optimality. It can make roleplaying more fun! Liking having a low dex score, and having a low wisdom but high int score!
Really the thing to remember is that any mental stat is a valid dump if you’re not casting with it or taking skills for it. The focus on INT imo largely comes from players who- consciously or subconsciously- assume they have enough experience that they can metagame a lot of knowledge they need. They broadly know what does and doesn’t work on monsters and how spells function even if they’re not playing a caster, and this can bleed into how they play their character and what rolls they expect to make often.
This is true to a point. But I think the bigger issue is saving throws, which I realize is still a meta-game/power game perspective, though from a different angle. There's just more wisdom saves, and failing them usually means you're charmed or dominated or held or something else where you end up more-or-less removed from the fight. It's just more dangerous to lose out on wis than with the other two mental stats. And throw in perception being wis based, where the extra point or two, even if you're not proficient, is going to be useful. So, I'll happily dump int or cha, but wis is hard to let go of.
To the OP's point, I would love it if they brought back older editions bonuses for higher int, like an extra language/skill proficiency per point of int. But that would be its own can of worms and nothing like it showed up in the playtests, so I'm not going to hold my breath.
WIS does have a bit more theoretical weight, but considering that unless WIS is a primary stat it’s unlikely to be higher than 16 and in many cases closer to 14, the mod is relatively minor relative to the DC of the more powerful effects. Which isn’t to say I don’t think they could stand to distribute saves a bit more evenly. Pretty sure Perception and Insight are larger reasons why people favor it over INT.
You mentioned Fighter, Rogue, Warlock and Paladin. Fighter has Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, both of whom use INT to determine their DCs. Rogue has Arcane Trickster, which does the same, as well as Inquisitive, which can make INT(Investigation) checks in combat as a bonus action, and later on can get advantage on them. You won't use the Inquisitive features much, I reckon, but they're there. Warlock has nothing for you, as far as I'm aware, though it does have a fair few INT skill options. Paladin only has the Religion skill, since they already have spellcasting locked into CHA, and no skill-related features.
If you're using feats, you could use something like Magic Initiate (Wizard) to try and make some use of your high INT bonus. Otherwise... Not really.
A nice simple house rule could be, characters know languages equal to their INT bonus. +2 bonus, 2 languages beyond Common. That's instead of getting languages from your background and race, probably. If you have a negative modifier then maybe you only speak your racial language and not Common. That could be fun for some. Idk.
To me personally, having a paladin who is intelligent means that he can think tactically and outside of the box with plenty of knowledge to spare… BUT with low wisdom he may not have the best street smarts and might try to get along with some unfriendly people or not pick up on subtle social cues. That’s what I’m trying to go for. Like at least a +2 int and a -1 wis. I think it would be fun!
maybe if I decide to subclass and choose hexblade (for the very useful hex warrior feature) I could fit some sort of dynamic between the young oath of redemption paladin and his newfound teasing and sometimes antagonistic hex sword?
Oh yes that is true. Fighters and rouges do have subclasses that put some focus on intelligence. I really like the eldritch knight subclass, they’re really cool.
The funny thing about the Eldritch Knight is that it can absolutely get away with dump-statting Intelligence. The number of spells they know is fixed based on their level so you're not able to prepare any extras. If you focus on Abjuration spells with Magic Missile and Booming Blade as your token offensive spells, you don't need to worry about saving throws or spell attacks. And none of the subclass's special abilities require Int.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thinking "tactically" I honestly think is more a matter of WIS (wits and common sense). Thinking "strategically" I'd say is more INT. Tactics tells you what to do on the field with the enemy bearing down on you. Strategy gets you to that field, to include things like choosing where (and maybe whether) to fight a pitched battle and how to manage the most efficient logistical path to getting there.
It depends how you play. INT is the stat of investigation, research and retention of the products of those two endeavors. Some DMs spoon-feed information "Ok, you find the book, and the book says....". Using INT to mechanize that part of the game, allows a player to recognize artifacts and markers of history, religion, arcane, etc. And rather than spoon-fed, they could be given (like in real life) a bunch of contradictory and competing answers and the check will allow a character to sort out the truth of it all. iNT is the stat of the character who "knows things."
If the DM wants to discourage use of the aforementioned meta knowledge, leaning in on INT as to what a character may know outside their direct experience makes a lot of sense.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
That's a good way to look at it. I would rather roleplay as a character who thinks strategically. After all, I enjoy strategy games! I'll talk to my DM to see how they like to DM, and whether or not they'd be open to reducing the amount of "meta-knowledge" in our games. I think it would be fun.
Fighter also has Psi Warrior, which provides some decent Intelligence-scaling options.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Use the Skills With Different Abilities variant rules: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/using-ability-scores#VariantSkillswithDifferentAbilities). Intelligence is the one Ability I could come up with reasons to pair with any skill or tool in the game in some way or another. Anyone who thinks that Int isn’t useful for lots of stuff just isn’t thinking about it enough.
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I'd almost take this even further and say a high INT leads you to trap selections with Eldritch Knight. As a 1/3 caster, spending your action on level 1 or 2 offensive spells at level 6 is going to be a disappointment. The defensive and utility spells that don't need INT also happen to be the most useful and best scaling options available.
All that to say that a 14 INT is doable on any fighter build and don't let anyone tell you different. Remember you can also ask the DM to consider unorthodox ability-skill pairings as long as you can justify them, such as Insight(INT) to examine an enemy force in order to determine their tactics.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I wouldn’t say high INT on an EK is a trap in and of itself; one simple early combo of Earth Tremor or Hold Person followed by Action Surge is a good way to set enemies up for attacks, and it’s valid at all tiers. Now, focusing on damage dealing spells is a trap.