The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
Vestani are/were stereotypical gypsies. In many peoples minds, gypsies are lazy drunks who don't work. You can look up the discrimination that Irish Travelers and Romani Gypsies endure today.
The changes to Strahd are as follows (taken from here):
vistani get their own stat blocks in the npc & monsters appendix
rather than wanderers who live outside civilization, they are just wanderers.
phasing about them drinking heavily and being lazy has been removed
one of the vistani characters is not longer so drunk that they are poisoned
a NPC is no longer ashamed of their prosthetic limb.
haunted one changed from him (or her) to them
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
The weird thing here is the number of people acting (or pretending) that adding nuance to orcs and drow is suddenly going to turn the entire races into tree-hugging hippies or something. That's ridiculous. There will still be evil drow and evil orcs, just like we have evil humans, evil dwarves, and evil elves. Somebody mentioned the need for Stormtroopers, well, what species were Stormtroopers in Star Wars? Human! There were good humans and bad humans and nobody assumed that there was anything innate about it. Wasn't a problem.
Drow society is a particularly thorny issue in my book. Forget the racial implications of their skin color, or the sexist implications of the only prominent matriarchal society in D&D being one where men are enslaved and emasculated. The society itself doesn't even make sense, it's too dysfunctional. Lolth is even said to watch for signs of too much cooperation among drow and single them out for destruction by their rivals. A society like that basically can't exist as an actual society. They should have collapsed in on themselves due to infighting, and that's before you take into account all the hostile, aggressive neighbors they have.
So anyway, you can have the evil orc warlord or evil drow wizard or whatever, but the difference is that people will be trying to stop them because they're burning villages and summoning demons, not because they're an orc and a drow.
Weren't the stormtroopers clones?
Well in the prequels, yes. in the original trilogy, no.
What were they then? People who made really bad choices and had really bad aim?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The weird thing here is the number of people acting (or pretending) that adding nuance to orcs and drow is suddenly going to turn the entire races into tree-hugging hippies or something. That's ridiculous. There will still be evil drow and evil orcs, just like we have evil humans, evil dwarves, and evil elves. Somebody mentioned the need for Stormtroopers, well, what species were Stormtroopers in Star Wars? Human! There were good humans and bad humans and nobody assumed that there was anything innate about it. Wasn't a problem.
Drow society is a particularly thorny issue in my book. Forget the racial implications of their skin color, or the sexist implications of the only prominent matriarchal society in D&D being one where men are enslaved and emasculated. The society itself doesn't even make sense, it's too dysfunctional. Lolth is even said to watch for signs of too much cooperation among drow and single them out for destruction by their rivals. A society like that basically can't exist as an actual society. They should have collapsed in on themselves due to infighting, and that's before you take into account all the hostile, aggressive neighbors they have.
So anyway, you can have the evil orc warlord or evil drow wizard or whatever, but the difference is that people will be trying to stop them because they're burning villages and summoning demons, not because they're an orc and a drow.
Weren't the stormtroopers clones?
Well in the prequels, yes. in the original trilogy, no.
What were they then? People who made really bad choices and had really bad aim?
In the Disney cannon I know they recruited children at a young age, I dont know about the old EU.
@ Gothyl: In fairness, I can see why they might want to change that. Having a character with a clear disability going out of their way to try and hide it can bring up unpleasant feelings for someone who actually might be disabled and has had difficulty coming to terms with it; not that every person with a disability will have that reaction, but I do have friends who on most days own it pretty well but occasionally encounter something that triggers *very* unpleasant memories to the point where they have to say "I'm sorry, I have to peace out!" I can understand WotC looking back and trying to avoid that.
Yeah I understand very well that feeling. I would still want Ezmerelda story to be told tho. Has potential of being character building and people need that.
I suppose if they made this change what else is not going to make the Sensitivity Editing stage of the creative process of WoTC. We will never know.
She still does have a story, she just owns her disability now instead of being ashamed of it; to be honest, I think that adds much more to her character than it takes away.
As to which things are up for consideration and which aren't, I can't say that for certain, but some are a bit easier to see than others, which is what I think they're going through right now.
The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
Vestani are/were stereotypical gypsies. In many peoples minds, gypsies are lazy drunks who don't work. You can look up the discrimination that Irish Travelers and Romani Gypsies endure today.
The changes to Strahd are as follows (taken from here):
vistani get their own stat blocks in the npc & monsters appendix
rather than wanderers who live outside civilization, they are just wanderers.
phasing about them drinking heavily and being lazy has been removed
one of the vistani characters is not longer so drunk that they are poisoned
a NPC is no longer ashamed of their prosthetic limb.
haunted one changed from him (or her) to them
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
Eh. Its iffy, but for someone who is ashamed, only to realize later that there is nothing wrong with their flaws, is a classic story telling plot.
The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
<snipped: changes here>
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
A quick aside, I just want to say props to everyone here for keeping this discussion civil and reasonable and not over-reacting like the rest of the internet!
Back to the topic at hand. If anything WotC are adding more stories.
Take the drow for instance. Until Eberron / Wildemount, what were the official examples of drow? You had the evil Lloth worshipers + Drizzt. WotC added with those two books:
Eberron:
Vulkoori: a tribe of hunters
Sulatar: elemental shapers
Umbragen: guardians against the underdark
Wildemount
Kryn: practice a form of reincarnation / ancestor worship
WotC's objective is that for other "evil" races, there should be canon examples of non-evil civilizations for them. Yes, a good player / DM can come up with this on their own, but it is nice to have work already done.
So in the future, you will have either the "traditional" evil background that your character is embracing / rebelling against OR some other set of options.
The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
Vestani are/were stereotypical gypsies. In many peoples minds, gypsies are lazy drunks who don't work. You can look up the discrimination that Irish Travelers and Romani Gypsies endure today.
The changes to Strahd are as follows (taken from here):
vistani get their own stat blocks in the npc & monsters appendix
rather than wanderers who live outside civilization, they are just wanderers.
phasing about them drinking heavily and being lazy has been removed
one of the vistani characters is not longer so drunk that they are poisoned
a NPC is no longer ashamed of their prosthetic limb.
haunted one changed from him (or her) to them
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
Eh. Its iffy, but for someone who is ashamed, only to realize later that there is nothing wrong with their flaws, is a classic story telling plot.
It's an overdone storytelling plot, and it perpetrates the stereotype that people with a disability are defined by the disability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
Vestani are/were stereotypical gypsies. In many peoples minds, gypsies are lazy drunks who don't work. You can look up the discrimination that Irish Travelers and Romani Gypsies endure today.
The changes to Strahd are as follows (taken from here):
vistani get their own stat blocks in the npc & monsters appendix
rather than wanderers who live outside civilization, they are just wanderers.
phasing about them drinking heavily and being lazy has been removed
one of the vistani characters is not longer so drunk that they are poisoned
a NPC is no longer ashamed of their prosthetic limb.
haunted one changed from him (or her) to them
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
Eh. Its iffy, but for someone who is ashamed, only to realize later that there is nothing wrong with their flaws, is a classic story telling plot.
It's an overdone storytelling plot, and it perpetrates the stereotype that people with a disability are defined by the disability.
True. But there is a reason why it's overdone. It honestly works.
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
No, it does not need to be only positive representations, but for the races / groups being talked about, representations have been mostly or all negative until now.
You can have human heroes and human villains; good kingdoms and bad.
WotC wants to add that same nuance to the "evil" races as well, and not have "evil race" heroes be the exception to the rule.
The changes WotC have made, while subtle, are important and a positive step.
Vestani are/were stereotypical gypsies. In many peoples minds, gypsies are lazy drunks who don't work. You can look up the discrimination that Irish Travelers and Romani Gypsies endure today.
The changes to Strahd are as follows (taken from here):
vistani get their own stat blocks in the npc & monsters appendix
rather than wanderers who live outside civilization, they are just wanderers.
phasing about them drinking heavily and being lazy has been removed
one of the vistani characters is not longer so drunk that they are poisoned
a NPC is no longer ashamed of their prosthetic limb.
haunted one changed from him (or her) to them
To the vast majority of people, these changes will make hardly any difference, but to the affected communities (romani, disabled, etc), it shows that WotC does care about their representation, and that it should be more positive than it has been in the past.
Yes its in general a good thing but I feel they might be robbing us of good stories
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
Eh. Its iffy, but for someone who is ashamed, only to realize later that there is nothing wrong with their flaws, is a classic story telling plot.
Basically that is included as huge part of How to train you dragon movie from DreamWorks Animation... and the movie was critically acclaimed as refreshing approach to disability
Ezmerelda is not the hill i want to die on but like why remove it - people here are saying someone might get upset (and i am not heartless about it) however I don't think that is a good reason, Now were adding it and doing nothing with it and it has no purpose on the story then yeah I am 100% in favour of remove it because it zero impact on the story.
They could have made it part of the story and given player a opportunity to help the npc that would have been cool and I hope WoTC don't be shy about trying theses things in the future in adventures or novels.
And finally I hope they are not disingenuous about their inclusion of sensitivity readers on the creative process just so they avoid controversy from unreasonable folks. We should stand our ground on good story telling and diversity.
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
No, it does not need to be only positive representations, but for the races / groups being talked about, representations have been mostly or all negative until now.
You can have human heroes and human villains; good kingdoms and bad.
WotC wants to add that same nuance to the "evil" races as well, and not have "evil race" heroes be the exception to the rule.
That i am 100% in favour and I hope they used these very words.
D&D is one of the most diverse games ever, with all sorts of races. When I first saw the drow, I didn't think of black people. Now, I don't take sides on politics, but this is just silly. If you don't like something, change it! D&D is about creativity! (I know that doesn't really fit this situation, but whatever)
I know right? And that's what frustrates me the most about this whole thing. Taking a hobby, a safe place from all the politics of real life and just trying to appease the politics in real life.
...It might have been a "safe place from all the politics of real life" for you, but it sure as hell wasn't for those of us who are gay, or women, or trans, or Black, or Native. Because even when we're playing DnD we're confronted with racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. - sometimes from the GM, sometimes from the players, and sometimes from the sourcebooks. It's not always intentional, and you probably didn't notice because it doesn't directly affect you, but it is there. I appreciate that WOTC is making at least some effort to create a "safe place" for everyone, not just white straight guys.
I question I have for you or anyone in this post is this:
Should only positive representations be allowed and if so why?
What were they then? People who made really bad choices and had really bad aim?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
In the Disney cannon I know they recruited children at a young age, I dont know about the old EU.
She still does have a story, she just owns her disability now instead of being ashamed of it; to be honest, I think that adds much more to her character than it takes away.
As to which things are up for consideration and which aren't, I can't say that for certain, but some are a bit easier to see than others, which is what I think they're going through right now.
Eh. Its iffy, but for someone who is ashamed, only to realize later that there is nothing wrong with their flaws, is a classic story telling plot.
Off-topic,
But would kenku mate closer to humans or birds?
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A quick aside, I just want to say props to everyone here for keeping this discussion civil and reasonable and not over-reacting like the rest of the internet!
Back to the topic at hand. If anything WotC are adding more stories.
Take the drow for instance. Until Eberron / Wildemount, what were the official examples of drow? You had the evil Lloth worshipers + Drizzt. WotC added with those two books:
WotC's objective is that for other "evil" races, there should be canon examples of non-evil civilizations for them. Yes, a good player / DM can come up with this on their own, but it is nice to have work already done.
So in the future, you will have either the "traditional" evil background that your character is embracing / rebelling against OR some other set of options.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
Eh depends on dm
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's an overdone storytelling plot, and it perpetrates the stereotype that people with a disability are defined by the disability.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
*knuckles the echidna voice* Oh no!
True. But there is a reason why it's overdone. It honestly works.
No, it does not need to be only positive representations, but for the races / groups being talked about, representations have been mostly or all negative until now.
You can have human heroes and human villains; good kingdoms and bad.
WotC wants to add that same nuance to the "evil" races as well, and not have "evil race" heroes be the exception to the rule.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
Basically that is included as huge part of How to train you dragon movie from DreamWorks Animation... and the movie was critically acclaimed as refreshing approach to disability
Ezmerelda is not the hill i want to die on but like why remove it - people here are saying someone might get upset (and i am not heartless about it) however I don't think that is a good reason, Now were adding it and doing nothing with it and it has no purpose on the story then yeah I am 100% in favour of remove it because it zero impact on the story.
They could have made it part of the story and given player a opportunity to help the npc that would have been cool and I hope WoTC don't be shy about trying theses things in the future in adventures or novels.
And finally I hope they are not disingenuous about their inclusion of sensitivity readers on the creative process just so they avoid controversy from unreasonable folks. We should stand our ground on good story telling and diversity.
That i am 100% in favour and I hope they used these very words.
How did we get on this topic? Why and how?
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because the internet
I only quoted this because it is the 69th post.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Off topic but some what related
Because of this topic
Same with me.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!