No problem. It's not something people would automatically know, especially given the pervasive pop-culture depictions of two-handed weapons in fiction. And it's true that there were plenty of two-handed weapons that were heavy instruments that didn't have any finesse to speak of.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would really like to see a two handed reach finesse polearm that does around 2d4 damage or less, so it doesnt outpace STR build fighters in damage but still has a benefit for being two handed.
If you look at the zweihander historically, believe it or not it's a fencing weapon that should be a finesse greatsword. The foregrip allowing it a wider grip which enable it to be used more like a spear.
Ultimately if thats what a player wants to build I wouldn't let them start with it, but id be more than happy to give them a finesse greatsword as a magic item.
If you look at the zweihander historically, believe it or not it's a fencing weapon that should be a finesse greatsword. The foregrip allowing it a wider grip which enable it to be used more like a spear.
As far as I'm aware, historically the zweihander was used more like a halberd than a sword and was deployed in formations used to support or counter pikes. Its use as a dueling weapon is more modern.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you look at the zweihander historically, believe it or not it's a fencing weapon that should be a finesse greatsword. The foregrip allowing it a wider grip which enable it to be used more like a spear.
Ultimately if thats what a player wants to build I wouldn't let them start with it, but id be more than happy to give them a finesse greatsword as a magic item.
Finesse+Two-Handed is one thing, Finesse+Heavy is quite another. Magic item sounds about right - I'd let a Mithral Greatsword be Finesse. I wouldn't let it exist in a mundane fashion, though.
I can't say I like the idea. The trouble with making changes is that further along the line things get confusing. Imagine a Halfling Rogue sneak attacking with a polearm. The weapon is longer than the Halfling is tall. How do they hide that?
There are feats to consider. Number of attacks to deal with. I've seen people use weapons to pole vault.
I don't know much about weapons. The only large weapon I have held was a two handed sword. It was on the heavy end at 8 pounds. They do down to as little as 6. A six pound hunk of steel much longer than three feet long is hard to imagine using in a nice precise manner to make carefully placed hits.
Actually, many polearms and spears were designed for making precise strikes at weak points in a foe's armor that depended less on raw strength because using two hands enabled better leverage and finesse. That's also why in historical societies that had traditions of warrior women, it was common for them to fight with two-handed weapons. For example, the naginata in Japan.
The entire point of a two handed weapon requiring both hands to wield is that is is too large, heavy, and or awkward to use effectively with only one hand. Leverage is used to amplify strength. The ancient scholar Archimedes is credited with explaining the concept with the saying "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." That is a feat of applied strength, not dexterity. Yes, it requires balance and coordination, but so does lifting a heavy object without falling over; just because dexterity is involved does not change the fact that it is primarily an application of strength and that is the stat that should be applied to it. Another reason female fighters often favor weapons like the naginata is that when they do make a broad slashing attack, which is why the weapon has the long blade instead of just a spear point, the length of the weapon acts as a lever and amplifies the strength they put into the swing so it can hit with much greater force than a shorter weapon like a sword. Also, the entire point (pun intended) of a piercing attack is to focus all of the force, which comes from strength, onto a tiny point so it penetrates deeper (or even at all, when it has to get through armor).
Also, any strike delivered with a thrust relies entirely on direct, straight line force to penetrate it's target. Again, just because dexterity is involved in aiming the blow does not change the fact that strength provides the force of the blow. This is even more so with the example of a zweihander used for dueling, as the quick jabs are preferred because the wide grip with one hand on the hilt and the other on the lower, unsharpened portion of the blade prevents the big, wide, forceful swings used by having both hands on the hilt. The fighting style is specifically tailored for wielding the large weapon in a close quarters fight, using it's size defensively and putting a lot of upper body strength behind short, powerful jabs with the point of the blade and blunt force bashes with the pommel and cross guard. That's all strength behind the damage.
Actually, many polearms and spears were designed for making precise strikes at weak points in a foe's armor that depended less on raw strength because using two hands enabled better leverage and finesse. That's also why in historical societies that had traditions of warrior women, it was common for them to fight with two-handed weapons. For example, the naginata in Japan.
The entire point of a two handed weapon requiring both hands to wield is that is is too large, heavy, and or awkward to use effectively with only one hand. Leverage is used to amplify strength. The ancient scholar Archimedes is credited with explaining the concept with the saying "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." That is a feat of applied strength, not dexterity. Yes, it requires balance and coordination, but so does lifting a heavy object without falling over; just because dexterity is involved does not change the fact that it is primarily an application of strength and that is the stat that should be applied to it. Another reason female fighters often favor weapons like the naginata is that when they do make a broad slashing attack, which is why the weapon has the long blade instead of just a spear point, the length of the weapon acts as a lever and amplifies the strength they put into the swing so it can hit with much greater force than a shorter weapon like a sword. Also, the entire point (pun intended) of a piercing attack is to focus all of the force, which comes from strength, onto a tiny point so it penetrates deeper (or even at all, when it has to get through armor).
Also, any strike delivered with a thrust relies entirely on direct, straight line force to penetrate it's target. Again, just because dexterity is involved in aiming the blow does not change the fact that strength provides the force of the blow. This is even more so with the example of a zweihander used for dueling, as the quick jabs are preferred because the wide grip with one hand on the hilt and the other on the lower, unsharpened portion of the blade prevents the big, wide, forceful swings used by having both hands on the hilt. The fighting style is specifically tailored for wielding the large weapon in a close quarters fight, using it's size defensively and putting a lot of upper body strength behind short, powerful jabs with the point of the blade and blunt force bashes with the pommel and cross guard. That's all strength behind the damage.
In the real world, use of any weapon requires a combination of both strength and agility. D&D's combat is heavily simplified.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This would make Rogues a little too broken. They can sneak attack with any finesse weapon, so they would be hitting even harder than they already do.
Mostly depends on the damage die you give it...
If you wanted to give it a d10 then its basically a heavy crossbow (which rogues can already use for sneak attack if they get the proficiency in another way).
It would be like if you gave Longsword finesse which oddly enough rogues already get.
On average you are looking at 1 point extra damage per swing and since rogues only get 1 then its mostly flavor at that point.
A longsword is not a Finesse weapon. It is Versatile. Rogues don't get that. Rapiers are Finesse weapons and every Rogue seems to have a couple. Ranged weapons are completely outside of the discussion.
Rogues get considerably more swings at first level than just one. One weapon in each hand is typical, that's two, plus a Reaction if the enemy ties to escape. At 4th level you can pick up a Feat. Or grab it at 1st with a Variant Human. Then you can take your two longswords and engage in a furious flurry of sneak attacks with exacting skill and precise targeting. Grab a pair of Halberds for the d10 base weapon damage just for laughs.
That is what we are talking about. Light Greatswords that weigh 6 pounds, in each hand, so that feather light six pounders, 12 pounds of edged metal, can be whirled around like a pair of feathers. A *lot* of feathers. 12 pounds of feathers. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "light as a feather".
In the end, everyone is free to do as they please.
They do actually get it as a baseline proficiency. Not sure why as they are NOT finesse. My entire point was that if you wanted to give a rogue a two hander just make it a longsword and say it has finesse (yes I realize they do not have it). They get the proficiency anyway but its useless to them.
And no they get one in this case as you would not have a second weapon...
Polearm would be the only way for a rogue to get a BA attack besides TWF which everyone can do anyway. And they would have to take a feat to even use the polearm in that way so I am not sure what your point is with that one...
I think there could be a couple two-handed finesse weapons, like a finesse polearm or staff of some kind, or a Three-Section Staff, but they would have to be carefully balanced to not be OP. Something like how the Double-Bladed Scimitar works could be something to draw from.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I am genuinely thankful for you enlightening me. I had no clue about this and in future should really put more than 1 second of reasearch in.
No problem. It's not something people would automatically know, especially given the pervasive pop-culture depictions of two-handed weapons in fiction. And it's true that there were plenty of two-handed weapons that were heavy instruments that didn't have any finesse to speak of.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would really like to see a two handed reach finesse polearm that does around 2d4 damage or less, so it doesnt outpace STR build fighters in damage but still has a benefit for being two handed.
Next best thing is to be a monk and use a spear. You can attack using DEX, and when you use both hands it's 1d8.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
If you look at the zweihander historically, believe it or not it's a fencing weapon that should be a finesse greatsword. The foregrip allowing it a wider grip which enable it to be used more like a spear.
Ultimately if thats what a player wants to build I wouldn't let them start with it, but id be more than happy to give them a finesse greatsword as a magic item.
As far as I'm aware, historically the zweihander was used more like a halberd than a sword and was deployed in formations used to support or counter pikes. Its use as a dueling weapon is more modern.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Finesse+Two-Handed is one thing, Finesse+Heavy is quite another. Magic item sounds about right - I'd let a Mithral Greatsword be Finesse. I wouldn't let it exist in a mundane fashion, though.
I can't say I like the idea. The trouble with making changes is that further along the line things get confusing. Imagine a Halfling Rogue sneak attacking with a polearm. The weapon is longer than the Halfling is tall. How do they hide that?
There are feats to consider. Number of attacks to deal with. I've seen people use weapons to pole vault.
I don't know much about weapons. The only large weapon I have held was a two handed sword. It was on the heavy end at 8 pounds. They do down to as little as 6. A six pound hunk of steel much longer than three feet long is hard to imagine using in a nice precise manner to make carefully placed hits.
<Insert clever signature here>
The entire point of a two handed weapon requiring both hands to wield is that is is too large, heavy, and or awkward to use effectively with only one hand. Leverage is used to amplify strength. The ancient scholar Archimedes is credited with explaining the concept with the saying "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." That is a feat of applied strength, not dexterity. Yes, it requires balance and coordination, but so does lifting a heavy object without falling over; just because dexterity is involved does not change the fact that it is primarily an application of strength and that is the stat that should be applied to it. Another reason female fighters often favor weapons like the naginata is that when they do make a broad slashing attack, which is why the weapon has the long blade instead of just a spear point, the length of the weapon acts as a lever and amplifies the strength they put into the swing so it can hit with much greater force than a shorter weapon like a sword. Also, the entire point (pun intended) of a piercing attack is to focus all of the force, which comes from strength, onto a tiny point so it penetrates deeper (or even at all, when it has to get through armor).
Also, any strike delivered with a thrust relies entirely on direct, straight line force to penetrate it's target. Again, just because dexterity is involved in aiming the blow does not change the fact that strength provides the force of the blow. This is even more so with the example of a zweihander used for dueling, as the quick jabs are preferred because the wide grip with one hand on the hilt and the other on the lower, unsharpened portion of the blade prevents the big, wide, forceful swings used by having both hands on the hilt. The fighting style is specifically tailored for wielding the large weapon in a close quarters fight, using it's size defensively and putting a lot of upper body strength behind short, powerful jabs with the point of the blade and blunt force bashes with the pommel and cross guard. That's all strength behind the damage.
Two Handed Finesse weapon = Longbow
you just need to be at least 10ft away to use it lol
In the real world, use of any weapon requires a combination of both strength and agility. D&D's combat is heavily simplified.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not really. A weapon's damage dice really stop having much impact on a rogue's damage output by about level 5.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Mostly depends on the damage die you give it...
If you wanted to give it a d10 then its basically a heavy crossbow (which rogues can already use for sneak attack if they get the proficiency in another way).
It would be like if you gave Longsword finesse which oddly enough rogues already get.
On average you are looking at 1 point extra damage per swing and since rogues only get 1 then its mostly flavor at that point.
A longsword is not a Finesse weapon. It is Versatile. Rogues don't get that. Rapiers are Finesse weapons and every Rogue seems to have a couple. Ranged weapons are completely outside of the discussion.
Rogues get considerably more swings at first level than just one. One weapon in each hand is typical, that's two, plus a Reaction if the enemy ties to escape. At 4th level you can pick up a Feat. Or grab it at 1st with a Variant Human. Then you can take your two longswords and engage in a furious flurry of sneak attacks with exacting skill and precise targeting. Grab a pair of Halberds for the d10 base weapon damage just for laughs.
That is what we are talking about. Light Greatswords that weigh 6 pounds, in each hand, so that feather light six pounders, 12 pounds of edged metal, can be whirled around like a pair of feathers. A *lot* of feathers. 12 pounds of feathers. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "light as a feather".
In the end, everyone is free to do as they please.
<Insert clever signature here>
Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords
Tools: Thieves’ tools
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence
Skills: Choose four from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth
They do actually get it as a baseline proficiency. Not sure why as they are NOT finesse. My entire point was that if you wanted to give a rogue a two hander just make it a longsword and say it has finesse (yes I realize they do not have it). They get the proficiency anyway but its useless to them.
And no they get one in this case as you would not have a second weapon...
Polearm would be the only way for a rogue to get a BA attack besides TWF which everyone can do anyway. And they would have to take a feat to even use the polearm in that way so I am not sure what your point is with that one...
Rogues get longsword proficiency as an artifact of previous editions, when they were able to backstab/sneak attack with it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Give them a Sun Blade. Problem solved.
yup...longsword with finesse!
An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think there could be a couple two-handed finesse weapons, like a finesse polearm or staff of some kind, or a Three-Section Staff, but they would have to be carefully balanced to not be OP. Something like how the Double-Bladed Scimitar works could be something to draw from.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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