Just thought that a Dex-focused Fighter, who is purely there for the damage is going to be substantially worse at their job than a Str-focused one, since the highest damage Dex melee weapon there is is a rapier, and unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, any Fighter with a Greatsword,greataxe, longsword, battleaxe or warhammer is going to be doing comparable or more damage than you. I just want to know if it seems plausible and balanced to have a two-handed Finesse weapon, and if there are any examples in irl history of weapons that could qualify.
The issue with a two-handed finesse and a dex focused DPR fighter is that dex is tied to AC for every armor except heavy armor and is your initiative modifier. So, it dex fighters got all of that plus a weapon that compared to a greatsword or greataxe nobody would play a strength build fighter because strength based fighters would be significantly worse. Currently what keeps the meta in balance is that dex based fighters have the option to go ranged or their higher AC which makes them better tanks, while str based rouges have the ability to do more damage. At higher levels where str fighter has plate mail the bonus to AC becomes negligible, but the ability to retreat and go ranged if they get hurt makes them still viable.
Hope that answered your question.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
Why is it wrong that a STR melee fighter does more damage than a DEX melee fighter? DEX overall is a much better stat than STR, so I think it's good to let STR fighters have this niche.
By the way, ignoring feats, the difference isn't much, and when factoring in fighting styles, the gap is even smaller.
unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, any Fighter with a Greatsword,greataxe, longsword, battleaxe or warhammer is going to be doing comparable or more damage than you.
So get the feat. To me it makes total sense that the DEX fighter is whirling around with two weapons while the STR guy is smashing with a big weapon. Even double bladed scimitar is basically just dual wielding two weapons that happen to be fused together.
Like others have said, it is probably not well balanced mechanically, but as for irl examples, I think some of the Asian martial arts use of spears or even Japanese nodachi do not use strong, powerful swings, bUt more of a technique of having the hands further apart and even moving in different directions for precise strikes and jabs. (Of course, I’m no expert.) ;) Even some European great sword use, I have heard, in the hands of an expert is not just giant swings but also more wiggles and quick jabs.
So historically, it’s not uncommon. Mechanically, I dunno. Heavy armor or light armor + Dex seems kind of a wash to me, but Initiative bonuses as well as Dex saves being FAR more common than Str saves definitely is an issue. I’m a pushover as a DM, however, so if one of my players really loved the concept, it’s not utterly broken, but it would be more powerful than normal. Maybe a feat spend would balance it back out.
There is the double bladed scimitar which is a two handed finesse weapon, but requires a feat to use correctly.
And being an Elf to use at all.
You don't have to be an elf to get the weapon, it specifically says you can have it but you have to be prepared for elves to question you / fight you about it.
Whats the feat you need to have to use the double bladed scimitar? My friends character has this as a pact weapon, and I'm very confused by it. A: thought Hex blade couldn't have two handed properly. B: the feat he has is to make it a finesse weapon but it already is and that would just mean he could use Dex or Str and its his pact weapon so he should be using ChA.
There is the double bladed scimitar which is a two handed finesse weapon, but requires a feat to use correctly.
And being an Elf to use at all.
You don't have to be an elf to get the weapon, it specifically says you can have it but you have to be prepared for elves to question you / fight you about it.
But by itself, it doesn't have the finesse property. The Revenant Blade (elf only) is what makes it a finesse weapon for you.
I think the katana should be a versatile finesse weapon: 1d6 slashing, versatile 1d8, finesse.
Katanas weren't any lighter or more agile than European swords of the same length. Using existing sword stats for them is good enough in 5E's heavily abstracted weapon charts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Whats the feat you need to have to use the double bladed scimitar? My friends character has this as a pact weapon, and I'm very confused by it. A: thought Hex blade couldn't have two handed properly. B: the feat he has is to make it a finesse weapon but it already is and that would just mean he could use Dex or Str and its his pact weapon so he should be using ChA.
You don’t need a feat to use it. You need a feat to use it as a finesse weapon. The Double-Bladed Scimitar by itself does not have the finesse property. If a character has the Revenant Blade feat, then they gain the following benefits (among others):
While you are holding a double-bladed scimitar with two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
A double-bladed scimitar has the finesse property when you wield it.
Because of the way DDB is programmed, feats and weapons don’t really interact properly. So, in order to fake it, DDB had to jerryrig something that should not exist at all, the Revenant Double-Bladed Scimitar. That’s not actually a real thing. That’s just the workaround they needed to do to have a way to implement pretending that the Revenant Blade feat actually does what it is supposed to do, which it does not currently. That’s why, at the bottom of the feat, DDB added the following bit:
There is the double bladed scimitar which is a two handed finesse weapon, but requires a feat to use correctly.
And being an Elf to use at all.
You don't have to be an elf to get the weapon, it specifically says you can have it but you have to be prepared for elves to question you / fight you about it.
And you need to be an Elf to take the Revenant Blade feat. It’s the prerequisite.
I think the katana should be a versatile finesse weapon: 1d6 slashing, versatile 1d8, finesse.
Katanas weren't any lighter or more agile than European swords of the same length. Using existing sword stats for them is good enough in 5E's heavily abstracted weapon charts.
Actually, because of the hilt design, and the lack of a pommel, Katanas required more grip strength to use properly. And because of the stiffer blades, edge alignment was more of a thing, so you needed a bit more strength to overcome slightly misaligned strikes with a Katana.
But I still let my players use a Longsword as a Katana without any additional Str requirements because it is a game after all.
I think the katana should be a versatile finesse weapon: 1d6 slashing, versatile 1d8, finesse.
Katanas weren't any lighter or more agile than European swords of the same length. Using existing sword stats for them is good enough in 5E's heavily abstracted weapon charts.
Actually, because of the hilt design, and the lack of a pommel, Katanas required more grip strength to use properly. And because of the stiffer blades, edge alignment was more of a thing, so you needed a bit more strength to overcome slightly misaligned strikes with a Katana.
But I still let my players use a Longsword as a Katana without any additional Str requirements because it is a game after all.
The novel Snow Crash early on has a katanas for dummies section where Hiro Protagonist (actually character name) plays with one. Stephenson is pretty deep dive researcher even in his trivial details, so I took it as gospel. But yeah the mental work of a katana's precision isn't dexterity so much as focusing and concentrating on the precise delivery of one's strength (which gets into the "chi" discussed in some schools of martial arts striking).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It /is/ pretty much gospel. Stephenson should at the very least be considered a Pro-Am authority on swords. He's invested a ridiculous amount of time, money and effort learning about them.
I feel as thoguh it wud be be balanced enough but it just doesnt make sense from a realistic standpoint. Now im no expert but I feel as though the second that you put two hands on the weapon it becomes less easy to controll and more reliant on your ability to attack with power rather then well placed hits.
Actually, many polearms and spears were designed for making precise strikes at weak points in a foe's armor that depended less on raw strength because using two hands enabled better leverage and finesse. That's also why in historical societies that had traditions of warrior women, it was common for them to fight with two-handed weapons. For example, the naginata in Japan.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Just thought that a Dex-focused Fighter, who is purely there for the damage is going to be substantially worse at their job than a Str-focused one, since the highest damage Dex melee weapon there is is a rapier, and unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, any Fighter with a Greatsword,greataxe, longsword, battleaxe or warhammer is going to be doing comparable or more damage than you. I just want to know if it seems plausible and balanced to have a two-handed Finesse weapon, and if there are any examples in irl history of weapons that could qualify.
The issue with a two-handed finesse and a dex focused DPR fighter is that dex is tied to AC for every armor except heavy armor and is your initiative modifier. So, it dex fighters got all of that plus a weapon that compared to a greatsword or greataxe nobody would play a strength build fighter because strength based fighters would be significantly worse. Currently what keeps the meta in balance is that dex based fighters have the option to go ranged or their higher AC which makes them better tanks, while str based rouges have the ability to do more damage. At higher levels where str fighter has plate mail the bonus to AC becomes negligible, but the ability to retreat and go ranged if they get hurt makes them still viable.
Hope that answered your question.
call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
Dex is already the super stat of D&D, no need to give it anymore power.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Why is it wrong that a STR melee fighter does more damage than a DEX melee fighter? DEX overall is a much better stat than STR, so I think it's good to let STR fighters have this niche.
By the way, ignoring feats, the difference isn't much, and when factoring in fighting styles, the gap is even smaller.
There is the double bladed scimitar which is a two handed finesse weapon, but requires a feat to use correctly.
And being an Elf to use at all.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
So get the feat. To me it makes total sense that the DEX fighter is whirling around with two weapons while the STR guy is smashing with a big weapon. Even double bladed scimitar is basically just dual wielding two weapons that happen to be fused together.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Like others have said, it is probably not well balanced mechanically, but as for irl examples, I think some of the Asian martial arts use of spears or even Japanese nodachi do not use strong, powerful swings, bUt more of a technique of having the hands further apart and even moving in different directions for precise strikes and jabs. (Of course, I’m no expert.) ;) Even some European great sword use, I have heard, in the hands of an expert is not just giant swings but also more wiggles and quick jabs.
So historically, it’s not uncommon. Mechanically, I dunno. Heavy armor or light armor + Dex seems kind of a wash to me, but Initiative bonuses as well as Dex saves being FAR more common than Str saves definitely is an issue. I’m a pushover as a DM, however, so if one of my players really loved the concept, it’s not utterly broken, but it would be more powerful than normal. Maybe a feat spend would balance it back out.
You don't have to be an elf to get the weapon, it specifically says you can have it but you have to be prepared for elves to question you / fight you about it.
Whats the feat you need to have to use the double bladed scimitar? My friends character has this as a pact weapon, and I'm very confused by it. A: thought Hex blade couldn't have two handed properly. B: the feat he has is to make it a finesse weapon but it already is and that would just mean he could use Dex or Str and its his pact weapon so he should be using ChA.
I think the katana should be a versatile finesse weapon: 1d6 slashing, versatile 1d8, finesse.
he / him
But by itself, it doesn't have the finesse property. The Revenant Blade (elf only) is what makes it a finesse weapon for you.
Katanas weren't any lighter or more agile than European swords of the same length. Using existing sword stats for them is good enough in 5E's heavily abstracted weapon charts.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You don’t need a feat to use it. You need a feat to use it as a finesse weapon. The Double-Bladed Scimitar by itself does not have the finesse property. If a character has the Revenant Blade feat, then they gain the following benefits (among others):
Because of the way DDB is programmed, feats and weapons don’t really interact properly. So, in order to fake it, DDB had to jerryrig something that should not exist at all, the Revenant Double-Bladed Scimitar. That’s not actually a real thing. That’s just the workaround they needed to do to have a way to implement pretending that the Revenant Blade feat actually does what it is supposed to do, which it does not currently. That’s why, at the bottom of the feat, DDB added the following bit:
Make more sense now?
And you need to be an Elf to take the Revenant Blade feat. It’s the prerequisite.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Actually, because of the hilt design, and the lack of a pommel, Katanas required more grip strength to use properly. And because of the stiffer blades, edge alignment was more of a thing, so you needed a bit more strength to overcome slightly misaligned strikes with a Katana.
But I still let my players use a Longsword as a Katana without any additional Str requirements because it is a game after all.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The novel Snow Crash early on has a katanas for dummies section where Hiro Protagonist (actually character name) plays with one. Stephenson is pretty deep dive researcher even in his trivial details, so I took it as gospel. But yeah the mental work of a katana's precision isn't dexterity so much as focusing and concentrating on the precise delivery of one's strength (which gets into the "chi" discussed in some schools of martial arts striking).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
To be fair, that is what Dexterity is. Precision.
But, I agree, Strength itself is agile and athletic and accurate.
he / him
It /is/ pretty much gospel. Stephenson should at the very least be considered a Pro-Am authority on swords. He's invested a ridiculous amount of time, money and effort learning about them.
I feel as thoguh it wud be be balanced enough but it just doesnt make sense from a realistic standpoint. Now im no expert but I feel as though the second that you put two hands on the weapon it becomes less easy to controll and more reliant on your ability to attack with power rather then well placed hits.
Actually, many polearms and spears were designed for making precise strikes at weak points in a foe's armor that depended less on raw strength because using two hands enabled better leverage and finesse. That's also why in historical societies that had traditions of warrior women, it was common for them to fight with two-handed weapons. For example, the naginata in Japan.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.