Wrapped in a dark, shadowy cloak that are an emblem of his dark power, a shadar-kai steps forward out of the alleyway. Her right hand fiddles with a crystal ball covered in arcane symbols, while her irises flash greenish-yellow. In her left hand is a shiny steel dagger, dripping with blood. Murmuring a dark incantation, she points the crystal ball at a knight, causing him to collapse to the floor, screaming in pain.
A noble sits by a mirror, getting ready for a party hosted by him in his home. Looking in the mirror he straightens his dress coat, and sees something flash in the mirror, the eye of humanoid creature. He stumbles back and yelps, turning back towards the looking glass, seeing nothing. Though the eye is gone, he still feels something strange, a tingling icy sensations, as if he's being watched.
Within a dark cave, a coven of occultists gather around a glowing green cauldron, chanting words in Infernal. As they channel their magic together, one member adds the last ingredient to the mixture, the tentacle of an illithid. The water hisses, dissolving the last unearthly addition, and a small creature climbs out of the cauldron, and then another, and another. Three familiars leap out of the boiling mixture, coiling themselves around the shoulder of their mistress.
Occultists are masters of dark and strange magic, exemplars of unearthly power, channeling their magic through trinkets and gross items. Members of this class call themselves Mages, Witches, and Occultists. The class, like the wizard, channels their magic from the weave of magic that covers the multiverse, but instead of using a vast variety of arcane spells for utility and combat purposes, the occultist generally focuses on the darker, taboo side of magic. They can spy on enemies with scrying spells, curse them with hexes, jinxes, and other dark magic, as well as using blood and bones to fuel and focus their spells.
Occultist
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Arcane Incantation
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2nd
+2
Magic Jinx
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
3rd
+2
Coven Rite, Magic Line
4
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
5th
+3
─
4
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
6th
+3
Recycle Spells
4
4
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
7th
+3
Dark Line feature
4
4
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
9th
+4
─
4
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
10th
+4
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
11th
+4
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
13th
+5
─
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
14th
+5
Improved Coven Magic
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
15th
+5
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
17th
+6
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18th
+6
─
5
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
19th
+6
Unearthly Powers
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
20th
+6
Dark Mage
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
Class Features
As an occultist, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per occultist level Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per occultist level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
any simple weapon of your choice
(a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Occultist Spell List
Here's the list of spells you consult when you learn an occultist spell. The list is organized by spell level, not character level.
These spells are from the Player's Handbook and Xanathar's Guide to Everything
Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash chill touch dancing lights friends infestation light mage hand mending message minor illusion poison spray primal savagery thorn whip toll the dead witchcraft (see end of class description)
1st Level
armor of agathys cause fear charm person command comprehend languages cure wounds detect magic disguise self dissonant whispers faerie fire false life feather fall hellish rebuke hex identify inflict wounds jump longstrider mage armor protection from evil and good ray of sickness silent image sleep speak with animals tasha's hideous laughter unseen servant witch bolt
2nd Level
alter self animal messenger blindness/deafness blur cloud of daggers continual flame crown of madness darkness darkvision detect thoughts earthbind enhance ability enthrall heat metal hold person invisibility levitate locate object magic mouth melf's acid arrow misty step phantasmal force ray of enfeeblement rope trick scorching ray see invisibility shadow blade skywrite spider climb suggestion web
3rd Level
bestow curse blink clairvoyance counterspell dispell magic fear feign death fly glyph of warding haste hypnotic pattern leomund's tiny hut life transference magic circle major image nondetection phantom steed remove curse sending slow speak with dead spirit guardians stinking cloud summon lesser demons tongues vampiric touch
animate objects antilife shell awaken cloudkill contact other plane contagion dominate person dream enervation far step geas hold monster infernal calling insect plague legend lore mislead modify memory negative energy flood planar binding rary's telepathic bond scrying seeming teleportation circle
6th Level
circle of death conjure fey create homunculus disintegrate eyebite flesh to stone harm magic jar mass suggestion mental prison otto's irresistible dance programmed illusion soul cage true seeing wall of thorns
7th Level
etherealness finger of death mirage arcane mordenkainen's magnificent mansion plane shift project image sequester simulacrum symbol
8th Level
abi-dalzim's horrid wilting antimagic field antipathy/sympathy clone demiplane dominate monster feeblemind glibness illusory dragon maddening darkness maze mind blank power word stun
9th Level
foresight gate imprisonment mass polymorph power word kill psychic scream true polymorph weird wish
Arcane Incantation
While you concentrate on an occultist spell, you can empower your spells. When you cast a spell that deals damage or heals during this time, you may reroll an amount of damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus.
Magic Jinx
Starting at 2nd level, you gain access to a set of curses that you can set on creatures to cause harmful effects. You know an amount of jinxes equal to your proficiency bonus. You can use a jinx you know once, regaining the ability to use all of your used jinxes at the end of a long rest. You may use a jinx when you hit a creature with an attack or when they fail a saving throw against a spell you cast, but may only use one jinx a turn.
Jinx of Obscuring
The target becomes blinded or deafened (your choice), and remains that way for the next minute. The creature may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Immobility
The targets speeds become 0, and it cannot be increased in any way for the next minute. The creature may make a Strength saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Stupidity
The target must target the closest creature to it with its attacks and other harmful effects. The creature may make an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of the Cowardly
The target is frightened by you, and must use all of its movement moving directly away from you on their turns. The creature may make a Charisma saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Enfeebling
The target has disadvantage on all attack rolls and it has disadvantage on Strength checks. The creature may make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Clumsiness
The target has disadvantage on all Dexterity saving throws and all attack rolls made against it have advantage. The creature may make a Dexterity saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
Magic Line
At 3rd level, you choose your favored source of magic. Up until this point, you were harnessing your magic from the general obscured powers that lurk in the multiverse, but now you can focus on one specific archetype of dark magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Magic, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 3rd level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Recycle Spells
At level 6, you can harness the lingering magic of spells you cast that fail. When you cast a spell and miss with an attack roll for a spell of 2nd-level or higher you cast on another creature that they succeed on the saving throw for or you miss with the attack roll for the spell, you may choose to cause the spell to have no effect if it would have done any damage or any other effect. When you do so, you can regain a spell slot of the spell's level or lower.
New Spells
Witchcraft
evocation cantrip
As a practitioner of witch magic and dark spells, you are adept at focusing your magical powers to shape the environment around you. As an action while holding a spellcasting focus, you can cause one of the following magical effects of your choice to immediately happen:
You create an instantaneous, harmless eerie effect on a creature you can see within 10 feet, strong enough to be noticeable, but not strong enough to cause any damage or condition. This effect could be a shiver down their back, a slight headache, a piercing pain in a part of their body of your choice, a slight tingling sensation, or a slight increase or decrease in temperature.
You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire within 10 feet of you.
You instantly soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot within 10 feet of you.
You make a symbol, up to 10 words of text, or simple drawing appear on an object or surface within 10 feet of you for the next hour or until you dismiss it at any point (no action required).
You open or close an unlocked door, window, or shutter within 10 feet of you.
You alter the appearance of your eyes, hair, or one piece of clothing on you for the next hour or until you dismiss this change at any point (no action required).
Lemme rattle it around in my brain for a bit to give you a full review.
First impression, maybe reign in the class a bit so that the subclasses can do more. Maybe make this one like the fighter where it gets 5 subclass features.
Make the Jinxes either an “evil” thing or a subclass thing. A “White Witch” wouldn’t necessary find that appropriate.
Give them a specific choice between “White Magic,” “Grey Magic” and “Black Magic” in some way, or have it tied to the PC’s Alignment at the time when those features are gained. That might be a better way to work in various effects including the jinxes.
red magic for neutrality like in dragonlance maybe?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Wrapped in a dark, shadowy cloak that are an emblem of his dark power, a shadar-kai steps forward out of the alleyway. Her right hand fiddles with a crystal ball covered in arcane symbols, while her irises flash greenish-yellow. In her left hand is a shiny steel dagger, dripping with blood. Murmuring a dark incantation, she points the crystal ball at a knight, causing him to collapse to the floor, screaming in pain.
A noble sits by a mirror, getting ready for a party hosted by him in his home. Looking in the mirror he straightens his dress coat, and sees something flash in the mirror, the eye of humanoid creature. He stumbles back and yelps, turning back towards the looking glass, seeing nothing. Though the eye is gone, he still feels something strange, a tingling icy sensations, as if he's being watched.
Within a dark cave, a coven of occultists gather around a glowing green cauldron, chanting words in Infernal. As they channel their magic together, one member adds the last ingredient to the mixture, the tentacle of an illithid. The water hisses, dissolving the last unearthly addition, and a small creature climbs out of the cauldron, and then another, and another. Three familiars leap out of the boiling mixture, coiling themselves around the shoulder of their mistress.
Occultists are masters of dark and strange magic, exemplars of unearthly power, channeling their magic through trinkets and gross items. Members of this class call themselves Mages, Witches, and Occultists. The class, like the wizard, channels their magic from the weave of magic that covers the multiverse, but instead of using a vast variety of arcane spells for utility and combat purposes, the occultist generally focuses on the darker, taboo side of magic. They can spy on enemies with scrying spells, curse them with hexes, jinxes, and other dark magic, as well as using blood and bones to fuel and focus their spells.
Occultist
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Arcane Incantation
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2nd
+2
Magic Jinx
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
3rd
+2
Coven Rite, Magic Line
4
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
5th
+3
─
4
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
6th
+3
Recycle Spells
4
4
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
7th
+3
Dark Line feature
4
4
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
9th
+4
─
4
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
10th
+4
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
11th
+4
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
13th
+5
─
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
14th
+5
Improved Coven Magic
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
15th
+5
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
17th
+6
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18th
+6
─
5
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
19th
+6
Unearthly Powers
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
20th
+6
Dark Mage
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
Class Features
As an occultist, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per occultist level Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per occultist level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
any simple weapon of your choice
(a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Occultist Spell List
Here's the list of spells you consult when you learn an occultist spell. The list is organized by spell level, not character level.
These spells are from the Player's Handbook and Xanathar's Guide to Everything
Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash chill touch dancing lights friends infestation light mage hand mending message minor illusion poison spray primal savagery thorn whip toll the dead witchcraft (see end of class description)
1st Level
armor of agathys cause fear charm person command comprehend languages cure wounds detect magic disguise self dissonant whispers faerie fire false life feather fall hellish rebuke hex identify inflict wounds jump longstrider mage armor protection from evil and good ray of sickness silent image sleep speak with animals tasha's hideous laughter unseen servant witch bolt
2nd Level
alter self animal messenger blindness/deafness blur cloud of daggers continual flame crown of madness darkness darkvision detect thoughts earthbind enhance ability enthrall heat metal hold person invisibility levitate locate object magic mouth melf's acid arrow misty step phantasmal force ray of enfeeblement rope trick scorching ray see invisibility shadow blade skywrite spider climb suggestion web
3rd Level
bestow curse blink clairvoyance counterspell dispell magic fear feign death fly glyph of warding haste hypnotic pattern leomund's tiny hut life transference magic circle major image nondetection phantom steed remove curse sending slow speak with dead spirit guardians stinking cloud summon lesser demons tongues vampiric touch
animate objects antilife shell awaken cloudkill contact other plane contagion dominate person dream enervation far step geas hold monster infernal calling insect plague legend lore mislead modify memory negative energy flood planar binding rary's telepathic bond scrying seeming teleportation circle
6th Level
circle of death conjure fey create homunculus disintegrate eyebite flesh to stone harm magic jar mass suggestion mental prison otto's irresistible dance programmed illusion soul cage true seeing wall of thorns
7th Level
etherealness finger of death mirage arcane mordenkainen's magnificent mansion plane shift project image sequester simulacrum symbol
8th Level
abi-dalzim's horrid wilting antimagic field antipathy/sympathy clone demiplane dominate monster feeblemind glibness illusory dragon maddening darkness maze mind blank power word stun
9th Level
foresight gate imprisonment mass polymorph power word kill psychic scream true polymorph weird wish
Arcane Incantation
While you concentrate on an occultist spell, you can empower your spells. When you cast a spell that deals damage or heals during this time, you may reroll an amount of damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus.
Magic Jinx
Starting at 2nd level, you gain access to a set of curses that you can set on creatures to cause harmful effects. You know an amount of jinxes equal to your proficiency bonus. You can use a jinx you know once, regaining the ability to use all of your used jinxes at the end of a long rest. You may use a jinx when you hit a creature with an attack or when they fail a saving throw against a spell you cast, but may only use one jinx a turn.
Jinx of Obscuring
The target becomes blinded or deafened (your choice), and remains that way for the next minute. The creature may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Immobility
The targets speeds become 0, and it cannot be increased in any way for the next minute. The creature may make a Strength saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Stupidity
The target must target the closest creature to it with its attacks and other harmful effects. The creature may make an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of the Cowardly
The target is frightened by you, and must use all of its movement moving directly away from you on their turns. The creature may make a Charisma saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Enfeebling
The target has disadvantage on all attack rolls and it has disadvantage on Strength checks. The creature may make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Clumsiness
The target has disadvantage on all Dexterity saving throws and all attack rolls made against it have advantage. The creature may make a Dexterity saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
Magic Line
At 3rd level, you choose your favored source of magic. Up until this point, you were harnessing your magic from the general obscured powers that lurk in the multiverse, but now you can focus on one specific archetype of dark magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Magic, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 3rd level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Recycle Spells
At level 6, you can harness the lingering magic of spells you cast that fail. When you cast a spell and miss with an attack roll for a spell of 2nd-level or higher you cast on another creature that they succeed on the saving throw for or you miss with the attack roll for the spell, you may choose to cause the spell to have no effect if it would have done any damage or any other effect. When you do so, you can regain a spell slot of the spell's level or lower.
New Spells
Witchcraft
evocation cantrip
As a practitioner of witch magic and dark spells, you are adept at focusing your magical powers to shape the environment around you. As an action while holding a spellcasting focus, you can cause one of the following magical effects of your choice to immediately happen:
You create an instantaneous, harmless eerie effect on a creature you can see within 10 feet, strong enough to be noticeable, but not strong enough to cause any damage or condition. This effect could be a shiver down their back, a slight headache, a piercing pain in a part of their body of your choice, a slight tingling sensation, or a slight increase or decrease in temperature.
You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire within 10 feet of you.
You instantly soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot within 10 feet of you.
You make a symbol, up to 10 words of text, or simple drawing appear on an object or surface within 10 feet of you for the next hour or until you dismiss it at any point (no action required).
You open or close an unlocked door, window, or shutter within 10 feet of you.
You alter the appearance of your eyes, hair, or one piece of clothing on you for the next hour or until you dismiss this change at any point (no action required).
Lemme rattle it around in my brain for a bit to give you a full review.
First impression, maybe reign in the class a bit so that the subclasses can do more. Maybe make this one like the fighter where it gets 5 subclass features.
Make the Jinxes either an “evil” thing or a subclass thing. A “White Witch” wouldn’t necessary find that appropriate.
Give them a specific choice between “White Magic,” “Grey Magic” and “Black Magic” in some way, or have it tied to the PC’s Alignment at the time when those features are gained. That might be a better way to work in various effects including the jinxes.
Okay, thanks. The subclasses will give them quite a bit of power, so I can scale this back a bit to make room.
Okay, do you have any recommendations for how to change the jinxes? Maybe make a choice at 1st level between White Magic, Grey Magic, and Black Magic, and giving access to Jinxes for black magic, some kind of Charm for grey magic, and Blessings as a White Magic practitioner?
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
That’s what subclasses are for. Once that base “witch” chassis has been created those various different concepts can then be bolted on using subclasses.
Nope. The concept of a 'witch' isn't consistent enough to fit within a single class.
Can you specify why, please? Anything specific about my Witch class (now named Occultist) that isn't "consistent" enough for you with a folklore witch? The subclasses will solidify where they harness their power from, while the base class is meant to be open. That's how classes and subclasses work. The Fighter is a general warrior class, the subclasses determine how they fight.
There's ample criticism about how coven magic, jinxes, not mentioned hexes etc. create a problematic presentation of the class formerly known as witch, which is inadvertently further problematized by the effort to deproblematize by calling the class occultist.
I'd argue the idea of an occultist, period, destabilizes the position of Warlock as a class, since I'd argue most popular and literary warlocks (Constantine archetype, I'd say Giles in Buffy would be another) are in fact occultists. Occultist for people more versed in the intersection of fantasy and social history, would consider what you've presented initially as a folkloric witch in that category, but would more likely think of Aleister Crowley, The Cult of Thule, Lovecraftian academicians who take a step too far, sacred geometry, and then smaller less encompassing folk magics (Tarot and other forms of fortune telling as well as minor "service oriented" magic other editions of the game has treated as hedge magic).
Occultism is a mix of "study" and "dealing/trafficking" (yes, folkloric witches are full of pacts, that stuff they do at the cauldron is literally invocation, and look into how the word invoke is used as a concept in treaty and contracts in real world matters). It would be a rich concept for a character base, and could have the potential to be a successful class with a rich range of subclasses on par with the Rogue (my opinion one of the few classes that does base and subs really right, but that would have been an essay for this discussion if we stayed on topic and didn't become the class formerly known as witch workshop).
I wouldn't expect a "witch" or a "occultist" class to be consistent and have base integrity to flesh out with less than 24 hours of work and feedback. There's a prevalent strain of empowered home brewers who don't seem to appreciate that the coined term derives from a craft, that takes time. Put an idea out there, or better yet, when its in your headspace, put it in your play space and see how it works, then put an idea out there, and sure you'll get quick reactions from people's headspace, but the more useful feedback would come from their play space. In time, something will come up from the community that works or the community agrees to never do that again. It seems rather than embracing the craft logic from where the word home-brew derives, many in the DDB Home-brew community treat home brewing more as soda jerking. The innovative mix gets sprayed out and the author serves it up saying, "it's good, am I right?"
ThirdSundering, I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I think overall this project just needs more time and give and take. You've already pivoted in less than a day on the class name because of community input, so let the process work out and let it breathe a while and reflect a bit. I think there's some understandable tension because the class seems to have been thrown together to prove a point within a contentious thread.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It doesn’t matter what color you name them or even if you represent them with colors. The main point is to reign in that base chassis to a more neutral platform and then allow Player Agency to fill in those gaps. In this case it could be this other thing that relies on player agency that is also not strictly speaking subclass dependent. Kinda like how Pact Boons are separate from Warlock Pact, and Invocations are also separated from subclass as well. Or like how Infusions are also separated from Artificer Subclass.
It allows those subclasses to be interchangeable as they need to be, but also still allow for multiple layers of player agency at various levels built right in.
Wrapped in a dark, shadowy cloak that are an emblem of his dark power, a shadar-kai steps forward out of the alleyway. Her right hand fiddles with a crystal ball covered in arcane symbols, while her irises flash greenish-yellow. In her left hand is a shiny steel dagger, dripping with blood. Murmuring a dark incantation, she points the crystal ball at a knight, causing him to collapse to the floor, screaming in pain.
A noble sits by a mirror, getting ready for a party hosted by him in his home. Looking in the mirror he straightens his dress coat, and sees something flash in the mirror, the eye of humanoid creature. He stumbles back and yelps, turning back towards the looking glass, seeing nothing. Though the eye is gone, he still feels something strange, a tingling icy sensations, as if he's being watched.
Within a dark cave, a coven of occultists gather around a glowing green cauldron, chanting words in Infernal. As they channel their magic together, one member adds the last ingredient to the mixture, the tentacle of an illithid. The water hisses, dissolving the last unearthly addition, and a small creature climbs out of the cauldron, and then another, and another. Three familiars leap out of the boiling mixture, coiling themselves around the shoulder of their mistress.
Occultists are masters of dark and strange magic, exemplars of unearthly power, channeling their magic through trinkets and gross items. Members of this class call themselves Mages, Witches, and Occultists. The class, like the wizard, channels their magic from the weave of magic that covers the multiverse, but instead of using a vast variety of arcane spells for utility and combat purposes, the occultist generally focuses on the darker, taboo side of magic. They can spy on enemies with scrying spells, curse them with hexes, jinxes, and other dark magic, as well as using blood and bones to fuel and focus their spells.
Occultist
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Arcane Incantation
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2nd
+2
Magic Jinx
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
3rd
+2
Coven Rite, Magic Line
4
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
5th
+3
─
4
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
6th
+3
Recycle Spells
4
4
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
7th
+3
Dark Line feature
4
4
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
9th
+4
─
4
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
10th
+4
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
11th
+4
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
13th
+5
─
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
14th
+5
Improved Coven Magic
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
15th
+5
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
17th
+6
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18th
+6
─
5
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
19th
+6
Unearthly Powers
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
20th
+6
Dark Mage
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
Class Features
As an occultist, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per occultist level Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per occultist level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
any simple weapon of your choice
(a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Occultist Spell List
Here's the list of spells you consult when you learn an occultist spell. The list is organized by spell level, not character level.
These spells are from the Player's Handbook and Xanathar's Guide to Everything
Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash chill touch dancing lights friends infestation light mage hand mending message minor illusion poison spray primal savagery thorn whip toll the dead witchcraft (see end of class description)
1st Level
armor of agathys cause fear charm person command comprehend languages cure wounds detect magic disguise self dissonant whispers faerie fire false life feather fall hellish rebuke hex identify inflict wounds jump longstrider mage armor protection from evil and good ray of sickness silent image sleep speak with animals tasha's hideous laughter unseen servant witch bolt
2nd Level
alter self animal messenger blindness/deafness blur cloud of daggers continual flame crown of madness darkness darkvision detect thoughts earthbind enhance ability enthrall heat metal hold person invisibility levitate locate object magic mouth melf's acid arrow misty step phantasmal force ray of enfeeblement rope trick scorching ray see invisibility shadow blade skywrite spider climb suggestion web
3rd Level
bestow curse blink clairvoyance counterspell dispell magic fear feign death fly glyph of warding haste hypnotic pattern leomund's tiny hut life transference magic circle major image nondetection phantom steed remove curse sending slow speak with dead spirit guardians stinking cloud summon lesser demons tongues vampiric touch
animate objects antilife shell awaken cloudkill contact other plane contagion dominate person dream enervation far step geas hold monster infernal calling insect plague legend lore mislead modify memory negative energy flood planar binding rary's telepathic bond scrying seeming teleportation circle
6th Level
circle of death conjure fey create homunculus disintegrate eyebite flesh to stone harm magic jar mass suggestion mental prison otto's irresistible dance programmed illusion soul cage true seeing wall of thorns
7th Level
etherealness finger of death mirage arcane mordenkainen's magnificent mansion plane shift project image sequester simulacrum symbol
8th Level
abi-dalzim's horrid wilting antimagic field antipathy/sympathy clone demiplane dominate monster feeblemind glibness illusory dragon maddening darkness maze mind blank power word stun
9th Level
foresight gate imprisonment mass polymorph power word kill psychic scream true polymorph weird wish
Arcane Incantation
While you concentrate on an occultist spell, you can empower your spells. When you cast a spell that deals damage or heals during this time, you may reroll an amount of damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus.
Magic Jinx
Starting at 2nd level, you gain access to a set of curses that you can set on creatures to cause harmful effects. You know an amount of jinxes equal to your proficiency bonus. You can use a jinx you know once, regaining the ability to use all of your used jinxes at the end of a long rest. You may use a jinx when you hit a creature with an attack or when they fail a saving throw against a spell you cast, but may only use one jinx a turn.
Jinx of Obscuring
The target becomes blinded or deafened (your choice), and remains that way for the next minute. The creature may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Immobility
The targets speeds become 0, and it cannot be increased in any way for the next minute. The creature may make a Strength saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Stupidity
The target must target the closest creature to it with its attacks and other harmful effects. The creature may make an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of the Cowardly
The target is frightened by you, and must use all of its movement moving directly away from you on their turns. The creature may make a Charisma saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Enfeebling
The target has disadvantage on all attack rolls and it has disadvantage on Strength checks. The creature may make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Clumsiness
The target has disadvantage on all Dexterity saving throws and all attack rolls made against it have advantage. The creature may make a Dexterity saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
Magic Line
At 3rd level, you choose your favored source of magic. Up until this point, you were harnessing your magic from the general obscured powers that lurk in the multiverse, but now you can focus on one specific archetype of dark magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Magic, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 3rd level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Recycle Spells
At level 6, you can harness the lingering magic of spells you cast that fail. When you cast a spell and miss with an attack roll for a spell of 2nd-level or higher you cast on another creature that they succeed on the saving throw for or you miss with the attack roll for the spell, you may choose to cause the spell to have no effect if it would have done any damage or any other effect. When you do so, you can regain a spell slot of the spell's level or lower.
New Spells
Witchcraft
evocation cantrip
As a practitioner of witch magic and dark spells, you are adept at focusing your magical powers to shape the environment around you. As an action while holding a spellcasting focus, you can cause one of the following magical effects of your choice to immediately happen:
You create an instantaneous, harmless eerie effect on a creature you can see within 10 feet, strong enough to be noticeable, but not strong enough to cause any damage or condition. This effect could be a shiver down their back, a slight headache, a piercing pain in a part of their body of your choice, a slight tingling sensation, or a slight increase or decrease in temperature.
You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire within 10 feet of you.
You instantly soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot within 10 feet of you.
You make a symbol, up to 10 words of text, or simple drawing appear on an object or surface within 10 feet of you for the next hour or until you dismiss it at any point (no action required).
You open or close an unlocked door, window, or shutter within 10 feet of you.
You alter the appearance of your eyes, hair, or one piece of clothing on you for the next hour or until you dismiss this change at any point (no action required).
Lemme rattle it around in my brain for a bit to give you a full review.
First impression, maybe reign in the class a bit so that the subclasses can do more. Maybe make this one like the fighter where it gets 5 subclass features.
Make the Jinxes either an “evil” thing or a subclass thing. A “White Witch” wouldn’t necessary find that appropriate.
Give them a specific choice between “White Magic,” “Grey Magic” and “Black Magic” in some way, or have it tied to the PC’s Alignment at the time when those features are gained. That might be a better way to work in various effects including the jinxes.
Okay, thanks. The subclasses will give them quite a bit of power, so I can scale this back a bit to make room.
Okay, do you have any recommendations for how to change the jinxes? Maybe make a choice at 1st level between White Magic, Grey Magic, and Black Magic, and giving access to Jinxes for black magic, some kind of Charm for grey magic, and Blessings as a White Magic practitioner?
Some interchange should be built in too. Like a White or Black Which could also dip a couple Charms, or a Gray Witch could dip either Blessing or Jinx.
And I wouldn’t make it a flat 1st level choice, but instead a choice that they make every few levels whenever they gain a new one of these. I would at least want that potential for a Face-Heel/Heel-Face Turn during my career.
I might have more for you, but my brain is like sludge at the moment and I promised to get back to a couple other people about their homebrews first. 😓 Gimme some time.
ThirdSundering, I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I think overall this project just needs more time and give and take. You've already pivoted in less than a day on the class name because of community input, so let the process work out and let it breathe a while and reflect a bit. I think there's some understandable tension because the class seems to have been thrown together to prove a point within a contentious thread.
It obviously needs more time and revisions. I never said "Here, this is a perfect Witch/Occultist class, perfectly balanced, allow in your 5e games today!" I am very aware of the process that it takes to get homebrew to be balanced and usable.
I changed the name because Witch is problematic even without the community saying so. What do you call a male witch? It's normally Warlock, but 5e Warlocks are very different from a 5e male member of the Witch class I'm currently developing. Occultist fits better, and gets rid of most of the problematic parts of the class's name.
I offered up the Witch class because certain people on this thread were practically screaming that since we couldn't agree on what exactly a witch should be, it doesn't need to exist. It was mainly to show what a Witch/Occultist class could look like. I am going to further develop both this class and the Magus, as their thematic spaces are currently void in 5th edition D&D. I was showing that a witch is not equal to a wizard, druid, warlock, or cleric. It is unique and has a niche that it can fill.
Also, it's much easier for the side that doesn't want new classes in this argument than the people who do want new classes. We have to create classes and new features to make the idea of the class be valid, while all you have to do is say "nope, we don't need it".
So, here's a challenge to all of those who say we need no more classes and are vehemently repeating that claim:
My side has done our fair share of the work (Yurei, Goodbovine, IamSposta, Mezurrah, and I). If you think these classes don't need to exist (Shaman, Witch, Warlord, Magus, Psion), go and make your replacement for that. Go. Do it. Make a subclass that fits this. Get off your asses and get your hands dirty. Come back with it, and give us your draft. We can compare and decide which is a better fit of the design space. Until then, please shut up about these not being needed. Prove it.
This is way more fun than the group projects at school ever used to be. This is like all the kids who contributed and none of the ones who didn’t all in one group. 😂😂
Don't call them 'Jinxes'. Call them 'Twists' or 'Omens' or such. Something that could encompass both positive and negative effects.
Will that end up like the Disciplines with the mystic, where each subclass has it's own choices, but the other subclasses can also pick them?
Nah, this would be separate from subclass kinda like Pact Boons. But instead of one big one, multiple smaller ones with a choice at different levels. Kinda like Pact Boons crossed with Invocations as to how you get them mechanically, but with a different theme and execution.
Don't call them 'Jinxes'. Call them 'Twists' or 'Omens' or such. Something that could encompass both positive and negative effects.
Will that end up like the Disciplines with the mystic, where each subclass has it's own choices, but the other subclasses can also pick them?
I think what Yurei means is proposing something like omens as a more neutral term to be used for the feature instead of Jinx. I might be wrong though...
Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
This is way more fun than the group projects at school ever used to be. This is like all the kids who contributed and none of the ones who didn’t all in one group. 😂😂
I know. In school group projects, I'd always do all the work. Now, I have you guys to help me, and those who don't help screaming about the work I'm doing. It's exciting.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
I wouldn’t. I would let the “omens” be that for this class. And actually I would not call it “omens” because that’s a way cooler name for some sort of Divination class feature for this class.
Can you specify why, please? Anything specific about my Witch class (now named Occultist) that isn't "consistent" enough for you with a folklore witch?
Because the exact capabilities of folklore witches are (a) rarely specified precisely, and (b) wildly inconsistent even when specified (and 'occultist' is no better).
Honestly, I think what this winds up saying is that it would be useful to have a bunch of customized spell lists (maybe 20 or so), and then rather than a spellcaster getting all spells from a class, they get all spells from some set of lists (this probably means clerics and wizards don't get all the spells in their class lists, only a subset. That's fine, their class lists are a bit out of control anyway). Once you do that, just build your class as Wizard (Ceremonial' spell schools curses, demonology, ...), where Ceremonial is a subclass that specializes in group rituals.
Can you specify why, please? Anything specific about my Witch class (now named Occultist) that isn't "consistent" enough for you with a folklore witch?
Because the exact capabilities of folklore witches are (a) rarely specified precisely, and (b) wildly inconsistent even when specified (and 'occultist' is no better).
Honestly, I think what this winds up saying is that it would be useful to have a bunch of customized spell lists (maybe 20 or so), and then rather than a spellcaster getting all spells from a class, they get all spells from some set of lists (this probably means clerics and wizards don't get all the spells in their class lists, only a subset. That's fine, their class lists are a bit out of control anyway). Once you do that, just build your class as Wizard (Ceremonial' spell schools curses, demonology, ...), where Ceremonial is a subclass that specializes in group rituals.
(Occultist is better than Witch, because reasons listed earlier in this thread)
Also, if you think it would be better some other way, show us. Go make that other way, and come back with the product. We'll decide where to go from there.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
ThirdSundering, I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I think overall this project just needs more time and give and take. You've already pivoted in less than a day on the class name because of community input, so let the process work out and let it breathe a while and reflect a bit. I think there's some understandable tension because the class seems to have been thrown together to prove a point within a contentious thread.
It obviously needs more time and revisions. I never said "Here, this is a perfect Witch/Occultist class, perfectly balanced, allow in your 5e games today!" I am very aware of the process that it takes to get homebrew to be balanced and usable.
I changed the name because Witch is problematic even without the community saying so. What do you call a male witch? It's normally Warlock, but 5e Warlocks are very different from a 5e male member of the Witch class I'm currently developing. Occultist fits better, and gets rid of most of the problematic parts of the class's name.
I offered up the Witch class because certain people on this thread were practically screaming that since we couldn't agree on what exactly a witch should be, it doesn't need to exist. It was mainly to show what a Witch/Occultist class could look like. I am going to further develop both this class and the Magus, as their thematic spaces are currently void in 5th edition D&D. I was showing that a witch is not equal to a wizard, druid, warlock, or cleric. It is unique and has a niche that it can fill.
Also, it's much easier for the side that doesn't want new classes in this argument than the people who do want new classes. We have to create classes and new features to make the idea of the class be valid, while all you have to do is say "nope, we don't need it".
So, here's a challenge to all of those who say we need no more classes and are vehemently repeating that claim:
My side has done our fair share of the work (Yurei, Goodbovine, IamSposta, Mezurrah, and I). If you think these classes don't need to exist (Shaman, Witch, Warlord, Magus, Psion), go and make your replacement for that. Go. Do it. Make a subclass that fits this. Get off your asses and get your hands dirty. Come back with it, and give us your draft. We can compare and decide which is a better fit of the design space. Until then, please shut up about these not being needed. Prove it.
I know I am no 'Homebrew' expert. I will try.......don't know how long it will take me as I have never done it before. It will be a Cleric subclass that I do know.
If after I do this and take my lumps from the Experts those same Experts need to help me build a new class that I now have running through my head......Deal? What can I say except that all of you have inspired me! :D
Edit to add: no need for the comment: just shut up and do it! Last I checked everyone is entitled to have and voice their opinions!
Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
I wouldn’t. I would let the “omens” be that for this class. And actually I would not call it “omens” because that’s a way cooler name for some sort of Divination class feature for this class.
What would be another neutral term to use then? Incantation maybe, or chant? Or maybe Yurei's other suggestion of Twists?
red magic for neutrality like in dragonlance maybe?
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Okay, thanks. The subclasses will give them quite a bit of power, so I can scale this back a bit to make room.
Okay, do you have any recommendations for how to change the jinxes? Maybe make a choice at 1st level between White Magic, Grey Magic, and Black Magic, and giving access to Jinxes for black magic, some kind of Charm for grey magic, and Blessings as a White Magic practitioner?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
There's ample criticism about how coven magic, jinxes, not mentioned hexes etc. create a problematic presentation of the class formerly known as witch, which is inadvertently further problematized by the effort to deproblematize by calling the class occultist.
I'd argue the idea of an occultist, period, destabilizes the position of Warlock as a class, since I'd argue most popular and literary warlocks (Constantine archetype, I'd say Giles in Buffy would be another) are in fact occultists. Occultist for people more versed in the intersection of fantasy and social history, would consider what you've presented initially as a folkloric witch in that category, but would more likely think of Aleister Crowley, The Cult of Thule, Lovecraftian academicians who take a step too far, sacred geometry, and then smaller less encompassing folk magics (Tarot and other forms of fortune telling as well as minor "service oriented" magic other editions of the game has treated as hedge magic).
Occultism is a mix of "study" and "dealing/trafficking" (yes, folkloric witches are full of pacts, that stuff they do at the cauldron is literally invocation, and look into how the word invoke is used as a concept in treaty and contracts in real world matters). It would be a rich concept for a character base, and could have the potential to be a successful class with a rich range of subclasses on par with the Rogue (my opinion one of the few classes that does base and subs really right, but that would have been an essay for this discussion if we stayed on topic and didn't become the class formerly known as witch workshop).
I wouldn't expect a "witch" or a "occultist" class to be consistent and have base integrity to flesh out with less than 24 hours of work and feedback. There's a prevalent strain of empowered home brewers who don't seem to appreciate that the coined term derives from a craft, that takes time. Put an idea out there, or better yet, when its in your headspace, put it in your play space and see how it works, then put an idea out there, and sure you'll get quick reactions from people's headspace, but the more useful feedback would come from their play space. In time, something will come up from the community that works or the community agrees to never do that again. It seems rather than embracing the craft logic from where the word home-brew derives, many in the DDB Home-brew community treat home brewing more as soda jerking. The innovative mix gets sprayed out and the author serves it up saying, "it's good, am I right?"
ThirdSundering, I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I think overall this project just needs more time and give and take. You've already pivoted in less than a day on the class name because of community input, so let the process work out and let it breathe a while and reflect a bit. I think there's some understandable tension because the class seems to have been thrown together to prove a point within a contentious thread.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It doesn’t matter what color you name them or even if you represent them with colors. The main point is to reign in that base chassis to a more neutral platform and then allow Player Agency to fill in those gaps. In this case it could be this other thing that relies on player agency that is also not strictly speaking subclass dependent. Kinda like how Pact Boons are separate from Warlock Pact, and Invocations are also separated from subclass as well. Or like how Infusions are also separated from Artificer Subclass.
It allows those subclasses to be interchangeable as they need to be, but also still allow for multiple layers of player agency at various levels built right in.
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Some interchange should be built in too. Like a White or Black Which could also dip a couple Charms, or a Gray Witch could dip either Blessing or Jinx.
And I wouldn’t make it a flat 1st level choice, but instead a choice that they make every few levels whenever they gain a new one of these. I would at least want that potential for a Face-Heel/Heel-Face Turn during my career.
I might have more for you, but my brain is like sludge at the moment and I promised to get back to a couple other people about their homebrews first. 😓 Gimme some time.
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I am busy brainstorming a Battle strategist class. I am so sick of not having utility if I am not a caster.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Don't call them 'Jinxes'. Call them 'Twists' or 'Omens' or such. Something that could encompass both positive and negative effects.
Please do not contact or message me.
Will that end up like the Disciplines with the mystic, where each subclass has it's own choices, but the other subclasses can also pick them?
It obviously needs more time and revisions. I never said "Here, this is a perfect Witch/Occultist class, perfectly balanced, allow in your 5e games today!" I am very aware of the process that it takes to get homebrew to be balanced and usable.
I changed the name because Witch is problematic even without the community saying so. What do you call a male witch? It's normally Warlock, but 5e Warlocks are very different from a 5e male member of the Witch class I'm currently developing. Occultist fits better, and gets rid of most of the problematic parts of the class's name.
I offered up the Witch class because certain people on this thread were practically screaming that since we couldn't agree on what exactly a witch should be, it doesn't need to exist. It was mainly to show what a Witch/Occultist class could look like. I am going to further develop both this class and the Magus, as their thematic spaces are currently void in 5th edition D&D. I was showing that a witch is not equal to a wizard, druid, warlock, or cleric. It is unique and has a niche that it can fill.
Also, it's much easier for the side that doesn't want new classes in this argument than the people who do want new classes. We have to create classes and new features to make the idea of the class be valid, while all you have to do is say "nope, we don't need it".
So, here's a challenge to all of those who say we need no more classes and are vehemently repeating that claim:
My side has done our fair share of the work (Yurei, Goodbovine, IamSposta, Mezurrah, and I). If you think these classes don't need to exist (Shaman, Witch, Warlord, Magus, Psion), go and make your replacement for that. Go. Do it. Make a subclass that fits this. Get off your asses and get your hands dirty. Come back with it, and give us your draft. We can compare and decide which is a better fit of the design space. Until then, please shut up about these not being needed. Prove it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This is way more fun than the group projects at school ever used to be. This is like all the kids who contributed and none of the ones who didn’t all in one group. 😂😂
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Nah, this would be separate from subclass kinda like Pact Boons. But instead of one big one, multiple smaller ones with a choice at different levels. Kinda like Pact Boons crossed with Invocations as to how you get them mechanically, but with a different theme and execution.
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I think what Yurei means is proposing something like omens as a more neutral term to be used for the feature instead of Jinx. I might be wrong though...
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I know. In school group projects, I'd always do all the work. Now, I have you guys to help me, and those who don't help screaming about the work I'm doing. It's exciting.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I wouldn’t. I would let the “omens” be that for this class. And actually I would not call it “omens” because that’s a way cooler name for some sort of Divination class feature for this class.
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Because the exact capabilities of folklore witches are (a) rarely specified precisely, and (b) wildly inconsistent even when specified (and 'occultist' is no better).
Honestly, I think what this winds up saying is that it would be useful to have a bunch of customized spell lists (maybe 20 or so), and then rather than a spellcaster getting all spells from a class, they get all spells from some set of lists (this probably means clerics and wizards don't get all the spells in their class lists, only a subset. That's fine, their class lists are a bit out of control anyway). Once you do that, just build your class as Wizard (Ceremonial' spell schools curses, demonology, ...), where Ceremonial is a subclass that specializes in group rituals.
(Occultist is better than Witch, because reasons listed earlier in this thread)
Also, if you think it would be better some other way, show us. Go make that other way, and come back with the product. We'll decide where to go from there.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I know I am no 'Homebrew' expert. I will try.......don't know how long it will take me as I have never done it before. It will be a Cleric subclass that I do know.
If after I do this and take my lumps from the Experts those same Experts need to help me build a new class that I now have running through my head......Deal? What can I say except that all of you have inspired me! :D
Edit to add: no need for the comment: just shut up and do it! Last I checked everyone is entitled to have and voice their opinions!
What would be another neutral term to use then? Incantation maybe, or chant? Or maybe Yurei's other suggestion of Twists?
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Occultist is "person who studies the occult". Any character with Arcana can credibly be called an occultist, and probably 90% of wizards should be.