I am making a new character, a paladin noble, I plan to level up to my first Extra Attack, then do a dip into fighter. How many levels do I have to take to get another extra attack? I heard that fighter multiclassing works weird so I just wanted to ask.
If you want 3 attacks with your attack action, It would be better to simply just go with fighter and not paladin at all. It sounds to me like you plan on taking paladin to level 5 then going fighter? you will be level 16 by the time you even get your 3rd attack, if you are starting the campaign at level 1 this will take forever unless your DM is leveling you up very very quickly. It will take a long time just to get 11 levels of fighter by itself.
If you want two attacks you can get either Paladin or Fighter to 5 - but if you want 3 attacks then your only option is to get Fighter to 11. The Extra Attack feature specifies the amount of attacks you can make (instead of saying +1 for example) - therefore they don't stack.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
I expect it’s about a 5-6 level dip in Fighter being too tempting for martial characters otherwise.
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Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
As a rule of thumb multi-classing shouldn't give you access to features beyond your what your individual classes would have at their respective levels, let alone access to features at a lower level than normal. So by that metric it is a problem to give 16th level character access to the Fighter's 20th level feature.
Worse, you could go any four of Fighter 5/Barbarian 5/Paladin 5/Ranger 5/Battle Smith Artificer 5/Monk 5 to wind up with 5 attacks per round at 20th level.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Well it would be earth-shattering. As InquisitiveCoder said - that F11/P5 would be level 16 and have the Fighter's level 20 capstone ability. That is a very big deal.
Personally that’s why I think the capstone for a fighter is weak compared to others. Sure it gets you 4 attacks per round and technically you can have 8 per round for up to 2 rounds with back-to-back action surges but it’s still not as crazy as some other classes that become god-like. Looking at a typical scenario where someone emphasizes damage (dueling and a +2 weapon so let’s not get crazy with magic items or shadow blade) you’re going to deal 1d8+9 each attack, so 8d8+72 IF you hit every time. That’s no guarantee at level 20. And that’s maxing out your capabilities. Spells from mages can end worlds, and yes there are saves to those but I don’t see that 4 attacks for a fighter is the epitome. A 5th would push the boundary but something else should have been granted.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Actually it would be 5 attacks, a fighter 11 gets 3 attacks, paladin 5 gets 2 attacks. Throw in TWF, or polearm master and it becomes 6 attacks, add in an AoO that becomes 7. Boosted with action surge and you get 13 attacks. So yeah, it is utterly broken.
Personally that’s why I think the capstone for a fighter is weak compared to others. Sure it gets you 4 attacks per round and technically you can have 8 per round for up to 2 rounds with back-to-back action surges but it’s still not as crazy as some other classes that become god-like. Looking at a typical scenario where someone emphasizes damage (dueling and a +2 weapon so let’s not get crazy with magic items or shadow blade) you’re going to deal 1d8+9 each attack, so 8d8+72 IF you hit every time. That’s no guarantee at level 20. And that’s maxing out your capabilities. Spells from mages can end worlds, and yes there are saves to those but I don’t see that 4 attacks for a fighter is the epitome. A 5th would push the boundary but something else should have been granted.
I think you're comparing it to the best rather than to all the others. Plenty of classes have mediocre capstones - bard, monk, ranger, sorcerer off the top of my head. But capstones aren't really just weighted against each other, classes are balanced more holistically.
And each of those attacks can deal +10 more damage if you're using Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, which get easier to use as your attack bonus grows faster than the AC curve.
Spellcasters vs martials at high levels is a different conversation, but the answer to that problem is not to just allow every martial MC to gain the primary benefit of being a fighter.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Actually it would be 5 attacks, a fighter 11 gets 3 attacks, paladin 5 gets 2 attacks. Throw in TWF, or polearm master and it becomes 6 attacks, add in an AoO that becomes 7. Boosted with action surge and you get 13 attacks. So yeah, it is utterly broken.
Attacks don’t stack when multiclassing. It says so in the PHB. It’s literally the higher of the two based on the rules.
“Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class”
the specificity at level 11 directly negates going for a 5 level dip in paladin. Let’s say you start as 5th level paladin and then fighter. You still only have 2 attacks until level 11 fighter (16 overall)
Personally that’s why I think the capstone for a fighter is weak compared to others.
The Fighter capstone is better than at least 50% of capstones, ignoring Paladins as every subclass gets a capstone and I can't be bothered counting (leaving 12 capstones to look at; being above average means 6 are worse):
Bard
Monk
Ranger*
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard
*: If you're using Favored Enemy and happen to have guessed the right types, the Ranger capstone is good, but if you didn't, it doesn't even exist. If you're using Favored Foe, the capstone exists, but using it shuts down concentration spells entirely. There aren't any genuinely good solutions here.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Actually it would be 5 attacks, a fighter 11 gets 3 attacks, paladin 5 gets 2 attacks. Throw in TWF, or polearm master and it becomes 6 attacks, add in an AoO that becomes 7. Boosted with action surge and you get 13 attacks. So yeah, it is utterly broken.
Attacks don’t stack when multiclassing. It says so in the PHB. It’s literally the higher of the two based on the rules.
“Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class”
the specificity at level 11 directly negates going for a 5 level dip in paladin. Let’s say you start as 5th level paladin and then fighter. You still only have 2 attacks until level 11 fighter (16 overall)
#Facepalm I know they don't stack. You don't need to take everything absolutely literally.
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
Actually it would be 5 attacks, a fighter 11 gets 3 attacks, paladin 5 gets 2 attacks. Throw in TWF, or polearm master and it becomes 6 attacks, add in an AoO that becomes 7. Boosted with action surge and you get 13 attacks. So yeah, it is utterly broken.
Attacks don’t stack when multiclassing. It says so in the PHB. It’s literally the higher of the two based on the rules.
“Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class”
the specificity at level 11 directly negates going for a 5 level dip in paladin. Let’s say you start as 5th level paladin and then fighter. You still only have 2 attacks until level 11 fighter (16 overall)
He was talkingt he hypothetical case that it did stack, it's the topic of the thread...
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The reason it doesn't stack is that higher level abilities are supposed to be harder to better than lower level abilities. That is, what you get at 11th level fighter is supposed to be better than what you get at 5th level fighter, paladin, etc. And it most specifically is to be the DOWNSIDE of multi-classing. Just as Cleric 5, Druid 5 can only cast 3rd level spells and is seriously weaker than a Cleric 10 that can cast 5th level spells, a fighter 5, Paladin 5 is supposed to be weaker than a Fighter 10.
Multi-classing has lots of little tricks to make it worthwhile, particularly the ability to pick and choose powers, as well as getting the cool stuff when you have subclass abilitlies. What you are asking for eliminates most reasons not to multi-class.
Moreover, at 20th level the Fighter get's his capstone, best ability extra attack (3). They most importantly do NOT want you to take 5 levels of Paladin and 11 levels of Fighter to get the Capstone Fighter ability you only get if you take 20 full levels of Paladin.
They should have named them differently so people would not get confused. That is, the 11th level fighter ability should be called Triple attack and the 20th level ability quadruple attack. That way no one would confuse the issue.
I didn’t get any indication of “hypothetical-ness” in that post but reading it now I’m understanding. It’s quote Inception that made me lose the context of the reply
I am making a new character, a paladin noble, I plan to level up to my first Extra Attack, then do a dip into fighter. How many levels do I have to take to get another extra attack? I heard that fighter multiclassing works weird so I just wanted to ask.
It is done.
11
If you want 3 attacks with your attack action, It would be better to simply just go with fighter and not paladin at all. It sounds to me like you plan on taking paladin to level 5 then going fighter? you will be level 16 by the time you even get your 3rd attack, if you are starting the campaign at level 1 this will take forever unless your DM is leveling you up very very quickly. It will take a long time just to get 11 levels of fighter by itself.
Extra attack doesn’t stack in multiclassing. The only thing about fighter is at high level in the class, it gets a third attack.
If you want two attacks you can get either Paladin or Fighter to 5 - but if you want 3 attacks then your only option is to get Fighter to 11. The Extra Attack feature specifies the amount of attacks you can make (instead of saying +1 for example) - therefore they don't stack.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Curiosity question. What exactly would be so broken about allowing Extra Attack to stack across classes? I can see that a Fighter 11/Paladin 5 would get 4 attacks in that scenario, but... is that a problem? And it's not like you can get another Extra Attack with only 4 more levels in another class -- you need 5, which is not possible in that configuration. The other configuration I see being possible would be 4 martial classes to 5th level for a total of 5 attacks.
Sure, it's a lot, but it's not exactly earth-shattering...
I expect it’s about a 5-6 level dip in Fighter being too tempting for martial characters otherwise.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
As a rule of thumb multi-classing shouldn't give you access to features beyond your what your individual classes would have at their respective levels, let alone access to features at a lower level than normal. So by that metric it is a problem to give 16th level character access to the Fighter's 20th level feature.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Worse, you could go any four of Fighter 5/Barbarian 5/Paladin 5/Ranger 5/Battle Smith Artificer 5/Monk 5 to wind up with 5 attacks per round at 20th level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well it would be earth-shattering. As InquisitiveCoder said - that F11/P5 would be level 16 and have the Fighter's level 20 capstone ability. That is a very big deal.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Personally that’s why I think the capstone for a fighter is weak compared to others. Sure it gets you 4 attacks per round and technically you can have 8 per round for up to 2 rounds with back-to-back action surges but it’s still not as crazy as some other classes that become god-like. Looking at a typical scenario where someone emphasizes damage (dueling and a +2 weapon so let’s not get crazy with magic items or shadow blade) you’re going to deal 1d8+9 each attack, so 8d8+72 IF you hit every time. That’s no guarantee at level 20. And that’s maxing out your capabilities. Spells from mages can end worlds, and yes there are saves to those but I don’t see that 4 attacks for a fighter is the epitome. A 5th would push the boundary but something else should have been granted.
Actually it would be 5 attacks, a fighter 11 gets 3 attacks, paladin 5 gets 2 attacks. Throw in TWF, or polearm master and it becomes 6 attacks, add in an AoO that becomes 7. Boosted with action surge and you get 13 attacks. So yeah, it is utterly broken.
I think you're comparing it to the best rather than to all the others. Plenty of classes have mediocre capstones - bard, monk, ranger, sorcerer off the top of my head. But capstones aren't really just weighted against each other, classes are balanced more holistically.
And each of those attacks can deal +10 more damage if you're using Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, which get easier to use as your attack bonus grows faster than the AC curve.
Spellcasters vs martials at high levels is a different conversation, but the answer to that problem is not to just allow every martial MC to gain the primary benefit of being a fighter.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Attacks don’t stack when multiclassing. It says so in the PHB. It’s literally the higher of the two based on the rules.
“Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class”
the specificity at level 11 directly negates going for a 5 level dip in paladin. Let’s say you start as 5th level paladin and then fighter. You still only have 2 attacks until level 11 fighter (16 overall)
The Fighter capstone is better than at least 50% of capstones, ignoring Paladins as every subclass gets a capstone and I can't be bothered counting (leaving 12 capstones to look at; being above average means 6 are worse):
*: If you're using Favored Enemy and happen to have guessed the right types, the Ranger capstone is good, but if you didn't, it doesn't even exist. If you're using Favored Foe, the capstone exists, but using it shuts down concentration spells entirely. There aren't any genuinely good solutions here.
#Facepalm I know they don't stack. You don't need to take everything absolutely literally.
He was talkingt he hypothetical case that it did stack, it's the topic of the thread...
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The reason it doesn't stack is that higher level abilities are supposed to be harder to better than lower level abilities. That is, what you get at 11th level fighter is supposed to be better than what you get at 5th level fighter, paladin, etc. And it most specifically is to be the DOWNSIDE of multi-classing. Just as Cleric 5, Druid 5 can only cast 3rd level spells and is seriously weaker than a Cleric 10 that can cast 5th level spells, a fighter 5, Paladin 5 is supposed to be weaker than a Fighter 10.
Multi-classing has lots of little tricks to make it worthwhile, particularly the ability to pick and choose powers, as well as getting the cool stuff when you have subclass abilitlies. What you are asking for eliminates most reasons not to multi-class.
Moreover, at 20th level the Fighter get's his capstone, best ability extra attack (3). They most importantly do NOT want you to take 5 levels of Paladin and 11 levels of Fighter to get the Capstone Fighter ability you only get if you take 20 full levels of Paladin.
They should have named them differently so people would not get confused. That is, the 11th level fighter ability should be called Triple attack and the 20th level ability quadruple attack. That way no one would confuse the issue.
I didn’t get any indication of “hypothetical-ness” in that post but reading it now I’m understanding. It’s quote Inception that made me lose the context of the reply
I agree, they got lazy with the naming convention. If they never wanted it to stack it should have different names altogether.