Honestly when I was making my homebrew world, I had to actively remember that humans existed and had to try and cram them into places of the world XD. I was much more fascinated and spent more time fleshing out the other single species/races place in the world that I had an "Oh yeah, I guess humans should be somewhere in this place."
Same for me. I had much more fun and it was so interesting developing the other species and people in my homebrew world that I literally put off the humans to the end.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Honestly when I was making my homebrew world, I had to actively remember that humans existed and had to try and cram them into places of the world XD. I was much more fascinated and spent more time fleshing out the other single species/races place in the world that I had an "Oh yeah, I guess humans should be somewhere in this place."
I know this feeling. I think up these grand dwarvish and rock gnome joint cities, dwarves aligning with drow to fight elves who align with duergar, allied tribes of elves and halflings, and firbolgs trying to coexist with shifters and centaurs. Then at the end humans just show up randomly in scattered townships.
The word is anthropocentric. Humanocentric is a word folks make up when they don't realize their and their peers' thoughts more often than not have some sort of precedence in ongoing intellectual discourse. Borders on solipsism, also a problem in the present late stage anthropocene.
But to push this further, there's no reason a game world needs to be racially balkanized. I mean maybe there's, and it seems there often is in game worlds, some sort of divine order where patheons literally ordain tribalism in game worlds so the power blocs fall on Human, Elf, Dwarf, Golbinoid, Orc etc lines. But there's no reason you can't have truly cosmopolitan regional powers that aren't made up of predominantly particular lineages (Elf Nation and Human Nation, etc.). You could go for the true cosmopolitan ideal, literally peopled by people from literally all over the place. I like to think some of the D&D City States - Waterdeep and to a lesser extent Baldur's Gate, and not a city state but I think Ten Towns fits here too - make this gesture, but there's no reason a game world couldn't have mixed peoples be more widespread ... and ethnostates being a rarity or a historical artifact. Eberron sometimes has this feel but I haven't read deeply in it.
Only thing, the lore that supports the RAW of D&D does postulate that humans tend to dominate most game worlds because of the versatility thing. Both the bonus to all stats in the PHB and the variant human are narratively justified through the "versatile" claim. There's also the presumption that humans flourish/mutliply more in "standard" D&D ... though that's usually predicated on the old trope that the other races are dwindling and the "age of humanity" or anthropocene is ascendant ... no one's game world has to follow that timeline trajectory. One could argue at least that the custom lineage options in Tasha's breaks that versatile hold (and controversy ensues).
Conversely, there's also the problem that the big all embracing humanoid family present D&D postures is still anthropocentric even for the species that are further from the anthropomorphic base (kenku, tabaxi, aarockoa, lizardfolk, tortles ... there's some effort here and there to prompt the player to realize "this character probably thinks on a cognitive level very differently from you so the morality may be alien, good luck"). In a similar gesture the game seems to have largely discouraged the considerations between varying life cycles. Adventurers, warriors etc. are understood by players as the costs are generally relatable in human terms (we have a sense of what death and danger are). Would creatures that live for centuries take similar risks at a similar frequency as a human? MToF's gets into this a bit to justify why an elf would adventure, but there's a sense there that elf adventurers just aren't as common as humans, though in the game as played we know that's generally not true. I do like how the Tortle is given roughly half a human lifespan and those that adventure do so to see as much of the world as possible so that when they return they can impart their learning on their end of life offspring.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In my homebrew world, humans are among the youngest of the sentient humanoids. However, they managed to expand more quickly than the other species had for two reasons: They reproduced faster, and they were more warlike than the elves or dwarves. In fact, they were enemies of most species in the world before signing a treaty with the dwarves or elves. After signing that treaty, they became an economic powerhouse in the world, simply because of their numbers and their will to expand and conquer as much as possible. And even after the treaty, they declared war on the orcs to gain more resources. The only two species that were able to match the humans in military strength were the goliaths and the goblinoids. But since those two were at war with each other, they couldn't expand at the rate that humans did. The largest human kingdom, Galoron, also consisted of numerous elf, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf populations. But about 2000 years after the founding of Galoron, they stopped expanding and enjoyed their wealthy economy. But, a hundred years before the common day, a nigh-apocalyptic event caused a new, more warlike government in Galoron.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Because I specifically didn't want to derail the other one. Because, apparently, older fans like me are considered "racist" and "bigots" according to new fans. Fans that wouldn't exist if it weren't for older fans like me who supported D&D when it was being run through the ringer...first with the Satanic Panic and then when Lorraine Williams ran TSR into the ground.
Because I specifically didn't want to derail the other one. Because, apparently, older fans like me are considered "racist" and "bigots" according to new fans. Fans that wouldn't exist if it weren't for older fans like me who supported D&D when it was being run through the ringer...first with the Satanic Panic and then when Lorraine Williams ran TSR into the ground.
No one in this thread or the other has called you racist or bigoted for having evil goblins. However, if you call people idiots for having non-evil goblins, you are a bigot.
This is off topic for this thread, so please take your rants about goblinoids and the second satanic panic back to the other thread.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Oh yeah, and I respected the bodily autonomy of a tree. Once you use Speak with Plants, it's honestly a bit psychotic if you cut them down with an axe.
I am a humanist. I view humanity as the measure of all things.
We do rule the planet, because we are that powerful. Our power is accelerating.
Just like it would be dumb to burn down ones own house, it is also dumb to burn down ones own planet.
The plants and animals around us are aspects of our own humanity. When they are healthy, then we are healthy.
I would say I'm a humanist in that I honor humanity as a quality: a quality not exclusive to humans. Exactly what humanity means is hard to define, but other creatures can possess it in varying degrees.
The primary driving force behind The Other Thread seems to be the idea that 'Evil' is as tangible, immutable, and well-defined a force in the Der&Der universe as gravity or magnetism. The base Faerunian cosmology certainly seems to align that way, with an Outer Plane assigned to each 'proper' alignment and souls pulled to those planes upon their demise to be stripped of their free will ande mutated into living embodiments of their alignment in life in an absolutely nightmarish process that also conflicts pretty heavily with most resurrection spells. If one subscribes to that cosmology, and further subscribes strictly to the deific pantheons which have been built to support it, then yes - creatures being 'objectively evil' is a natural consequence of that particular worldbuilding path.
That said? The Great Planar Cosmology only applies if the DM says it applies. Many worlds have been built in which humanocentric ethics are not an immutable law of the cosmos, and in those worlds it's perfectly fine to build a more complex political equation than "pink skin Gud, green skin Bad". Eberron, as one canon, written-in-an-official-book example, has silent gods that may or may not exist, a planar map that takes decades of scholastic study to interpret and understand, a 'Plane of the Dead' that absorbs all souls no matter their alignment and breaks them down into soul go within a matter of days, and demons who're portrayed completely differently than in any other Der&Der world. Nothing in Eberron, whatsoever, says anything about 'Objective Evil', and it's as valid a world to play in as Faerun. More so, really - Faerun has no sourcebook in this edition, whereas Exandria has one and Eberron has one-and-two-halves (if one considers Wayfinder's Guide to be a half a book and Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron to be another half a book, though the latter is absolutely excellent and I cannot recommend it enough for Eberron fans). No, the SCAG does not count, as it's first of all an absolutely godawful wretch of a book and second of all it's only for one small section of a world with fifty years of contradictory lore nobody knows or understands.
Thus? Why it's perfectly okay to spare the gooblans, provided they're willing to stop raiding our freaking chickens and work for a living instead.
Honestly when I was making my homebrew world, I had to actively remember that humans existed and had to try and cram them into places of the world XD. I was much more fascinated and spent more time fleshing out the other single species/races place in the world that I had an "Oh yeah, I guess humans should be somewhere in this place."
Yeah, lol. Theoretically the majority races on the continent where my game has been set so far are aarakocra and humans, but seems like every barkeeper is a halfling, dwarf, or half-orc. One of my players asked if there were any orcs in this world, since I don't like to run orcs as bad guys because of fantasy racism. I said, "Yeah, there must be, because there was that half-orc bartender."
It's not just me either. My PCs are dragonborn, aarakocra, drow, tiefling, halfling, and dragonborn. Not a human among them.
The primary driving force behind The Other Thread seems to be the idea that 'Evil' is as tangible, immutable, and well-defined a force in the Der&Der universe as gravity or magnetism.
The primary driving force behind The Other Thread seems to be the idea that 'Evil' is as tangible, immutable, and well-defined a force in the Der&Der universe as gravity or magnetism.
Well, there is that concept of Elemental Evil that has served to organize a lot of lore and serve as the driver for some classic adventures as well as the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign (which may have just been Temple of Elemental Evil revisited?). The cosmology of D&D with its evil lower planes and good upper planes does lend it self to see the good evil axis as opposing elemental forces, which lends itself pretty readily to a game where good and evil are essentialized. So yes, in some D&D universes, especially if you look at the lore and the deep cuts modern adventures sometimes reference, evil is a force like gravity or magnetism. Heck in some widespread mainstream theology as well as more esoteric practices, evil is conceived of as an actual force. I've never done a deep dive into it, but it seems a lot of the so called old school D&D community supports play within worlds structured in this vein. It's available to play.
That said, at least on this board, it seems a lot of D&D players prefer to have their games open to a broader set of possibilities than the essentialized good & evil conflict arguably in D&D's DNA. I think I'm one of them; but I also think it's a bit much to play games of canceling a thread by creating alt threads ... at least one responding to the accusation of "idiotic" using the reference "Der&Der." It's a juvenile formulation, and I know some posters overlook such juvenilia, but the pejorative "Der" is linked to slurs mocking people with intellectual disabilities. Do the self-ascribed high road walkers really want to follow that rally cry? One poster calling a collection of thinking they're opposed to idiotic isn't appropriate. However responding by stooping to the level of "Der&Der" ... well it isn't essentially evil, but it ain't good.
Speaking of a different and earlier Killing Joke, while the song is "Eighties" is catchy it seems like when schisms on this forum occur, it's often formulated in a way that was played out incessantly during that decade to the degree that I doubt whether we ever really left it.
I had to catch up on the forums to see what all the fuss is about. Whilst it's partly in jest, I applaud the creation of this thread.
People should be able to play how they want and have fun doing it. It's totally fine that people have different politics in their own game worlds, but the moment you start making statements about aspects of other people's games in THEIR games is 'idiotic', I personally think that's uncalled for.
I'm not saying their isn't a case to be made against the whole 'goblins are plain evil', but there's a way to go about it...
Let others have their fun in THEIR games and maybe consider being less judgmental about others. Simple
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Same for me. I had much more fun and it was so interesting developing the other species and people in my homebrew world that I literally put off the humans to the end.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I know this feeling. I think up these grand dwarvish and rock gnome joint cities, dwarves aligning with drow to fight elves who align with duergar, allied tribes of elves and halflings, and firbolgs trying to coexist with shifters and centaurs. Then at the end humans just show up randomly in scattered townships.
The word is anthropocentric. Humanocentric is a word folks make up when they don't realize their and their peers' thoughts more often than not have some sort of precedence in ongoing intellectual discourse. Borders on solipsism, also a problem in the present late stage anthropocene.
But to push this further, there's no reason a game world needs to be racially balkanized. I mean maybe there's, and it seems there often is in game worlds, some sort of divine order where patheons literally ordain tribalism in game worlds so the power blocs fall on Human, Elf, Dwarf, Golbinoid, Orc etc lines. But there's no reason you can't have truly cosmopolitan regional powers that aren't made up of predominantly particular lineages (Elf Nation and Human Nation, etc.). You could go for the true cosmopolitan ideal, literally peopled by people from literally all over the place. I like to think some of the D&D City States - Waterdeep and to a lesser extent Baldur's Gate, and not a city state but I think Ten Towns fits here too - make this gesture, but there's no reason a game world couldn't have mixed peoples be more widespread ... and ethnostates being a rarity or a historical artifact. Eberron sometimes has this feel but I haven't read deeply in it.
Only thing, the lore that supports the RAW of D&D does postulate that humans tend to dominate most game worlds because of the versatility thing. Both the bonus to all stats in the PHB and the variant human are narratively justified through the "versatile" claim. There's also the presumption that humans flourish/mutliply more in "standard" D&D ... though that's usually predicated on the old trope that the other races are dwindling and the "age of humanity" or anthropocene is ascendant ... no one's game world has to follow that timeline trajectory. One could argue at least that the custom lineage options in Tasha's breaks that versatile hold (and controversy ensues).
Conversely, there's also the problem that the big all embracing humanoid family present D&D postures is still anthropocentric even for the species that are further from the anthropomorphic base (kenku, tabaxi, aarockoa, lizardfolk, tortles ... there's some effort here and there to prompt the player to realize "this character probably thinks on a cognitive level very differently from you so the morality may be alien, good luck"). In a similar gesture the game seems to have largely discouraged the considerations between varying life cycles. Adventurers, warriors etc. are understood by players as the costs are generally relatable in human terms (we have a sense of what death and danger are). Would creatures that live for centuries take similar risks at a similar frequency as a human? MToF's gets into this a bit to justify why an elf would adventure, but there's a sense there that elf adventurers just aren't as common as humans, though in the game as played we know that's generally not true. I do like how the Tortle is given roughly half a human lifespan and those that adventure do so to see as much of the world as possible so that when they return they can impart their learning on their end of life offspring.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In my homebrew world, humans are among the youngest of the sentient humanoids. However, they managed to expand more quickly than the other species had for two reasons: They reproduced faster, and they were more warlike than the elves or dwarves. In fact, they were enemies of most species in the world before signing a treaty with the dwarves or elves. After signing that treaty, they became an economic powerhouse in the world, simply because of their numbers and their will to expand and conquer as much as possible. And even after the treaty, they declared war on the orcs to gain more resources. The only two species that were able to match the humans in military strength were the goliaths and the goblinoids. But since those two were at war with each other, they couldn't expand at the rate that humans did. The largest human kingdom, Galoron, also consisted of numerous elf, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf populations. But about 2000 years after the founding of Galoron, they stopped expanding and enjoyed their wealthy economy. But, a hundred years before the common day, a nigh-apocalyptic event caused a new, more warlike government in Galoron.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Well this thread is nothing but flame-bait.....
Says the guy who made the other thread. . .
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Because I specifically didn't want to derail the other one. Because, apparently, older fans like me are considered "racist" and "bigots" according to new fans. Fans that wouldn't exist if it weren't for older fans like me who supported D&D when it was being run through the ringer...first with the Satanic Panic and then when Lorraine Williams ran TSR into the ground.
No one in this thread or the other has called you racist or bigoted for having evil goblins. However, if you call people idiots for having non-evil goblins, you are a bigot.
This is off topic for this thread, so please take your rants about goblinoids and the second satanic panic back to the other thread.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This is some military grade irony.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
So....newer ones are idiots?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Settings without humans or with humans as minority can be fun and an interesting break from the usual.
People can play whatever they want to play.
The only really stupid thing I've seen in this thread is the attacks on anthropocentrism in the real world.
In my game I spared a blink dog and nobody thought it was weird, but then again, I am a non-human druid.
Oh yeah, and I respected the bodily autonomy of a tree. Once you use Speak with Plants, it's honestly a bit psychotic if you cut them down with an axe.
I would say I'm a humanist in that I honor humanity as a quality: a quality not exclusive to humans. Exactly what humanity means is hard to define, but other creatures can possess it in varying degrees.
The primary driving force behind The Other Thread seems to be the idea that 'Evil' is as tangible, immutable, and well-defined a force in the Der&Der universe as gravity or magnetism. The base Faerunian cosmology certainly seems to align that way, with an Outer Plane assigned to each 'proper' alignment and souls pulled to those planes upon their demise to be stripped of their free will ande mutated into living embodiments of their alignment in life in an absolutely nightmarish process that also conflicts pretty heavily with most resurrection spells. If one subscribes to that cosmology, and further subscribes strictly to the deific pantheons which have been built to support it, then yes - creatures being 'objectively evil' is a natural consequence of that particular worldbuilding path.
That said? The Great Planar Cosmology only applies if the DM says it applies. Many worlds have been built in which humanocentric ethics are not an immutable law of the cosmos, and in those worlds it's perfectly fine to build a more complex political equation than "pink skin Gud, green skin Bad". Eberron, as one canon, written-in-an-official-book example, has silent gods that may or may not exist, a planar map that takes decades of scholastic study to interpret and understand, a 'Plane of the Dead' that absorbs all souls no matter their alignment and breaks them down into soul go within a matter of days, and demons who're portrayed completely differently than in any other Der&Der world. Nothing in Eberron, whatsoever, says anything about 'Objective Evil', and it's as valid a world to play in as Faerun. More so, really - Faerun has no sourcebook in this edition, whereas Exandria has one and Eberron has one-and-two-halves (if one considers Wayfinder's Guide to be a half a book and Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron to be another half a book, though the latter is absolutely excellent and I cannot recommend it enough for Eberron fans). No, the SCAG does not count, as it's first of all an absolutely godawful wretch of a book and second of all it's only for one small section of a world with fifty years of contradictory lore nobody knows or understands.
Thus? Why it's perfectly okay to spare the gooblans, provided they're willing to stop raiding our freaking chickens and work for a living instead.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah, lol. Theoretically the majority races on the continent where my game has been set so far are aarakocra and humans, but seems like every barkeeper is a halfling, dwarf, or half-orc. One of my players asked if there were any orcs in this world, since I don't like to run orcs as bad guys because of fantasy racism. I said, "Yeah, there must be, because there was that half-orc bartender."
It's not just me either. My PCs are dragonborn, aarakocra, drow, tiefling, halfling, and dragonborn. Not a human among them.
Although the humans are the good guys in my world. But not because they're superior. Because they're the oppressed.
I just watched The Killing Joke recently and cannot help but draw parallels here.
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Well, there is that concept of Elemental Evil that has served to organize a lot of lore and serve as the driver for some classic adventures as well as the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign (which may have just been Temple of Elemental Evil revisited?). The cosmology of D&D with its evil lower planes and good upper planes does lend it self to see the good evil axis as opposing elemental forces, which lends itself pretty readily to a game where good and evil are essentialized. So yes, in some D&D universes, especially if you look at the lore and the deep cuts modern adventures sometimes reference, evil is a force like gravity or magnetism. Heck in some widespread mainstream theology as well as more esoteric practices, evil is conceived of as an actual force. I've never done a deep dive into it, but it seems a lot of the so called old school D&D community supports play within worlds structured in this vein. It's available to play.
That said, at least on this board, it seems a lot of D&D players prefer to have their games open to a broader set of possibilities than the essentialized good & evil conflict arguably in D&D's DNA. I think I'm one of them; but I also think it's a bit much to play games of canceling a thread by creating alt threads ... at least one responding to the accusation of "idiotic" using the reference "Der&Der." It's a juvenile formulation, and I know some posters overlook such juvenilia, but the pejorative "Der" is linked to slurs mocking people with intellectual disabilities. Do the self-ascribed high road walkers really want to follow that rally cry? One poster calling a collection of thinking they're opposed to idiotic isn't appropriate. However responding by stooping to the level of "Der&Der" ... well it isn't essentially evil, but it ain't good.
Speaking of a different and earlier Killing Joke, while the song is "Eighties" is catchy it seems like when schisms on this forum occur, it's often formulated in a way that was played out incessantly during that decade to the degree that I doubt whether we ever really left it.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I had to catch up on the forums to see what all the fuss is about. Whilst it's partly in jest, I applaud the creation of this thread.
People should be able to play how they want and have fun doing it. It's totally fine that people have different politics in their own game worlds, but the moment you start making statements about aspects of other people's games in THEIR games is 'idiotic', I personally think that's uncalled for.
I'm not saying their isn't a case to be made against the whole 'goblins are plain evil', but there's a way to go about it...
Let others have their fun in THEIR games and maybe consider being less judgmental about others. Simple
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.